Be the True You: Creating Your Authentic Personal Brand w/ Charmaine Nokuri, Strategist

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You hear it every day. You have to be a brand. You have to promote yourself. You have to show up and be something that everybody wants to hear, see, and be around. But how do you do that without losing yourself in this world where everybody's pointing at you, expecting you to be something that maybe you don't want to be?

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You're a creative created by God to give a specific message. But if you don't know who really are, how can you show up in the world? And what does branding even have to do with being authentic? If you've asked yourself these questions, if you have concerned yourself with trying to be what God wants you to be as a creative, but also know that you have to show up in the marketplace with quality and excellence, this is the episode that you need to listen to with branding expert and fellow creative Paul Creative Services. She is going to help you figure out this path because she has walked it herself.

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This is going to be an incredibly inspiring interview for you to listen to. So give me just a moment to welcome those of you who are new to God and gigs, and then we'll get right into this incredibly inspiring and practical interview.

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Artists, musicians, and creatives of all kinds looking for help bAllencing your passion to create with your everyday life. Not sure if your faith can coexist with your profession? Welcome to a place where real artists discuss real life. You're listening to the God and Gig show. Visit Godandgigs.com for show notes, links, and more information.

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Hello and welcome to our show. Thank you so much for making this podcast a part of your creative day. And if you're new to our show, thank you for giving us a chance. And let me tell you why you're in the right place at the right time. As a musician, artist, creative, who has a Christian or faith focused background but works in the mainstream arts and entertainment space, you want to thrive as a creative without ever sacrificing your faith.

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And that's what we do here. We help you to thrive in every way by solving temporary creative problems with timeless spiritual principles. That's what we've been doing here since 2015. We have a book, we have devotionals. We have this podcast, we have a community all designed to help you do just that.

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So I pray you'll stay connected. You found your tribe, you found your people. And speaking of the people that you have found, I could find no better person to talk about branding than our guest today, Paul Creative Services. Now, her resume in terms of marketing is beyond what I can read here, but let's just say she's worked with some of the biggest brands in the world as a digital strategist, not only for companies like that, but also for arts organizations. The reason why I know she can help you as a branding creative is because she's also a creative herself.

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As a jazz trumpeter, she has been able to find her way through many, many different paths that intersect with things that you may be very familiar with. Now, I can tell you her story is incredibly inspiring, but also will help you to see that you're not alone if you have some unique things that you're really not sure how to fit into your brand. But as you'll hear, when you become authentically sure of who you are, you're going to be able to connect with your audience in a deeper way and you're going to be able to do so with excellence using the strategy she's going to share with you. So get ready to hear just what it takes to become authentically you, but also extremely effective in marketing yourself to the people that you are called to reach. My friends, get ready to hear an amazing interview.

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Let's talk to my friend, my sister, Paul Creative Services.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I am speaking right now and I am introducing to you my friend, the OG of God and Gigs. She was really honestly, and I'm saying this to her directly as she's listening right now, she may not realize it, but she really was the first person that gave me the confidence because she was so engaged with our membership, with our community and she's proof that this process works and she's a dope person. She is like, amazing with branding, with her music. We're going to just peel all the layers back on. My friend, Paul Creative Services.

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Welcome to the God and gig show. How are you? I'm blessed, Allen. I'm so glad to be here with you. I'm glad to be a God and Gigs evangelist with you.

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I mean, I'm in the mission in the trenches with you because you have impacted my family and myself in such a positive way with the gifts and talents and vision that you have for God and Gigs. Thank you so much. That means the world to me. And so this is all about you now. This is where we turn the tables around because I know several times in our conversations we've talked about how what we've experienced in our creative lives, in our church lives, in everything that comes around to being who we are, authentically.

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It really is like this. It seems like it's totally disjointed, and yet it all comes together. And your story is one of the ones that I really want to tell so that people see in you that they are also not alone. So this is the hardest part. And I know that because you're in both worlds.

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You're in the branding world, you're in marketing, and you're in the creative in the music world. I know you know this question is coming, so I hope you're prepared. So when people meet you for the first time, you got to give them that 32nd elevator pitch. You got to tell them something about you that they're going to remember, and you got to pick one.

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I can't wait to hear this answer to this question. So tell me and our audience, what are the things that you want them to know if they don't remember anything else about this interview? I'm a social activist who uses marketing and art to advance a multicultural bridge building vision. Yo, this is why you're a pro. No, I shouldn't have been surprised at all.

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That is amazing. And so I'm going to go ahead and let them rewind that. They want to hear how succinct and how perfect that was of who you are. And now let's open up why all those worlds that you just mentioned, the activism, the connection with community, why all that matters? So, again, it's going to be hard for me because I know some of these stories from our member calls and all of our discussions at Gun Gigs 360, which they should sign up for, by the way, shameless Plug.

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But for now, let's talk about how you at least got let's talk one layer. Let's pick the layer of music and art. So where did that enter your life? Why is that important to you? Was it from a child?

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Was it school? What was the thing that where music became one of those things that meant the most to you. Music has always been a part of my life. I grew up singing in the choir. Typical black Baptist kind of background.

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Growing up in Virginia, I sang in the choir as a kid. I was always surrounded by music. My aunts, my uncle sang, but I didn't really have that singing voice. So I picked up an instrument. A lot of people start off in band or strings.

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I started off playing the cello, but then I broke my cello, and it's kind of a thing. And I was the oldest, and my dad being the accountant that he was, for me, I had to prove the, I guess, ROI or when you want your dad to do something, you have to think of the financial cost. And so trumpet was the cheapest instrument. That's how I picked it in, like, fifth grade after breaking, because I'm the oldest of four girls and money was kind of tight. So always my dad was thinking of the dollar and cents of everything because he's an accountant.

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So I picked up trumpet and I just fell in love with it because I finally had a voice that I really could tolerate. I love the sound of the trumpet. But also my father, if you want to say, I'm definitely a product of him because he worked for Jesse Jackson. He also promoted Andre Crouch at the Kennedy Center. He also worked for Quincy Jones.

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And we both were, like, radio host in St. Martin. So I was also getting because he was accountant and in the music industry, I was getting exposed to the music industry side, business side. But also was playing. And people in church, they're like, oh, you're so anointed.

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You're so anointed. And so that's how music just became actually the Spelman Glee Club. When I was a kid, they came and stayed at my house. That's a common HBCU tradition where a lot of the music programs go on tour and stay at. People's you know, at Spelman Glee Club came to visit the former Glee Club choir director.

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She was also directed the choir at my church because she was the sister of my pastor and stuff growing up. So I had just always been around music, but it was also sort of one of those things. And I think a lot of middle class black people, maybe this is maybe their experience as well. If your parents weren't into music, music in terms of especially back in the like that first of all, secular music as a Baptist person was not necessarily something you wanted your child to do. People are funny because eventually I will have my whole story about that, because I think some people don't understand the cultural context of jazz and secular music.

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If you grew up Baptist, I'm sure you've heard a lot of people, even on your podcast about that thing. It's not something you encourage your child to do to be a part of that. So my parents, they were supportive, kind of, but they're not going to spend a lot of money. And something that, again, my dad the ROI for your child. Being a musician is not very high.

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It's like, hey, they sent me to computer camp. That was the thing that they pushed me towards, or history, or being a teacher. But music was like sort of a hobby to them. It was sort of more like that's where my mindset was. That's part of the story that was number one.

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Even with all of our talks, I learned something just now that I didn't know about your family, about you. I mean, look at these names and these people that you were exposed to at a young age. So now it even starts to make more sense why even like you said, maybe they didn't encourage you to go into jazz route or in this opening into these other genres. You had a foundation of faith. You had a foundation in the church, but then you also had this immediate connection with, wait a minute, this is happening everywhere.

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People are talented everywhere. People are gifted everywhere. Right? And so now you're, like, getting which I'll give away. Part of the story where you actually go into school, right?

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You go to school for jazz and trumpet. That's a different story. That's a different story. Okay. That's a different story.

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I didn't know if I wanted to go there, but that's where, like I said, when I read your story, as we were talking, I realized, like, wow, how does somebody that has this amount of love and joy for the creative part of music, then also develop this skill in the marketing and the business side. And again, that's why when you just said about your dad, I was like, oh, this is not something that just came out of blue and God just sprinkled fairy dust on her. And she became really interested in numbers and how these things work in the real world. You also had that opening, so you told a little bit about the music. Can you tell a little bit about the business side?

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Where did your business acumen, your business desire? Or was it just something that just came out of something that you weren't expecting? We are hustlers.

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My dad's from East Orange, and he grew up poor, so I sort of gathered his hustle mentality. Like, if there's a will, there's a way. Find stuff. Very entrepreneurial. I grew up working in his accounting firm that he had, and so I learned about numbers.

00:12:29
My grandfather was an entrepreneur. My great grandfather was an entrepreneur. We grew up in a tradition of entrepreneurship, is to create your own and do your own thing. I didn't go to school for music. I actually went to school for history.

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Minor foreign affairs. My first degree was a little convoluted. I went to Spelman. I started off at Spelman, and I didn't last. There a lot of different cultural issues, which is whole different.

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But I did meet a young lady named Tia Fuller while I was there. And she was a little older than me, and she sort of took me on the wing. And we played in the Spelman Jazz ensemble. But unfortunately, I didn't stay there. I ended up at University of Virginia.

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And there were some cultural issues too. That's a whole podcast. I want to talk about the jazz pedagogy and racial issues. That's a whole conversation in itself. But when I went to UVA, I wanted to get out of college.

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I picked the easiest degree that I knew, and it was history then. I was also married at the time, and I was just wanting to support my family financially. And so I was like, this music stuff, and I was like and so I had sold my trumpet, and for ten years I was an evangelical stay at home mom because that's where I felt and that's where I was because I got married really young at 19, and it was the whole evangelical movement. I don't know if you like a lot of people probably saw shiny, happy people, but it's like during that time in the 2000s with Newt Gingrich and all that, women should stay in the house and you should be stay at home. And so I was a stay at home mom, and I needed to support my family because my ex husband at the time was going through medical school and technology, like 2000 was.

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I got a job as a web developer in the Herndon Corridor. And this is something like, self discovery of myself as an artist, because I feel like as an artist, too, it forces you to really know yourself, like, knowledge of self. And so it's been like a discovery process because I was talking to my friend at work, we work on Shaq's brands. That's a whole thing, but we work on Shaq's brands. And there's a lot of dei stuff going now in corporate America about intersectionality and bringing your authentic self to work.

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But sometimes we don't even know who we are because people just tell us who we are. And we grew up in these environments, and only now, as a Gen Xer, we begin to question who we are as an identity. We have new tools for analyzing who we are. So I was just being who I was told to be for a while. And so, as a 20 year old, I hadn't really found myself, and I was like, oh, good Christian women, they get in the south, at least.

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It was like the whole Southern tradition is that you go from your father's house to the sorority house to your husband's house. I was caught in that Southern tradition of that's what you're supposed to do is just get married, have a family, and that's the end of the story. And so 19 years old, I got married, had a family, didn't really, but I still didn't know myself as a person. And so it was just very interesting. So I just went through a period where I was an evangelical stay at home mom because that's what good Christian women did.

00:16:01
We listened to Beth Moore and Family Life Today, James Dobson, and, you know, like, you're laughing, but, you know, the. Whole culture look, I am trying not to have the PTSD in a good way. In a good way. Not all negative. Right?

00:16:19
Some of these are beautiful memories. Yes, exactly. This is the kind of thing that we get into, guys, in our 360 member calls that we just go there. I'm so glad you went there, because that is the thing that we often feel, again, alone, because you just said I want to hang my hat on what you said earlier, that artistry sometimes allows you to find who you are because other people tell you who you are. And that is such a deep statement in every walk of life, especially we're talking about in Christian culture, right?

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We can go there because exactly where a lot of our people reside, they're in that bubble where they're not really sure, because they're following the path that everybody told in terms of be good this way, be in church, do this and that's all. Again, we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It is good to be in church. It is good to be connected to community. It is good to have good, solid Christian foundations.

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But sometimes we trade that, right? And we think that's just what we have in our hands versus what we have in our heart. And we never get to the heart where God is actually concerned. And that this picture of perfection actually becomes, like, where we actually go off. Right?

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So I love that. Again, I have no apologies to anybody who's like, what? Yeah, that's right. That's where we live. We live in this intersectionality between Southern and evangelical and mission and cultural our African American cultures and all of our minority cultures.

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That's where we live. We live in that space, and we have to find a way to have an authentic voice. And here's where I'll pivot, because this is crazy, how you've been able to put all this together. You just mentioned something real quick, how you work on other people's brands. So while you're trying to find yourself who you are and your authentic self, and you had to give away, in a sense, your artistic self for a period in the middle of this, you're helping other people figure out who they are and who they want to sound like, how they want to present themselves in the world.

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How does that work? How do you help other people find where they are trying to say and who their message is? Meanwhile, you're trying to figure out who you are. Like, how did that even work? It's like women could probably relate to this.

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There is always that hairdresser who's. Amazing hairdresser, but their hair is a mess.

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Their hair is a mess. But they just love doing this for other people. But you never really because I'm sure even with God and gigs yourself, you teach a lot of people. But we were just talking, like, sometimes you don't get an opportunity because time is limited to work on yourself, because you're so giving to other people. Even you could see doctors.

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There are overweight, unhealthy doctors out here 100%. Because you learn the techniques and skills, because it is a technique and skill that you learn. Like, I got my master's degree in curriculum and instruction and education. And a part of that because my first love is actually teaching. I really love teaching.

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My mom's a teacher, and I wanted to be a teacher, but teaching doesn't make a lot of money, so I leaned on my dad's side with the hustle. So a part of teaching is understanding your audience. And there's a structure to that that I brought to marketing. Who is your audience? How do you want to communicate?

00:19:41
And I just got a job. I was doing a lot of web development. It was sort of a transition of like, the Internet. I just sort of grew up with the Internet, where it was like, okay, web developer, but you need to design appropriately for your audience. And so I was just learning a lot of stuff about marketing.

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I did a lot of SEO, and I just grew up with the Internet. And it's just one of those things where you got to dig deeper. And I was marketing because people with my tech company, I was sort of that person that you throw anything technological to, and I'll figure it out. And so even I'm sure all of us, like the Gen Xers, a lot of the Internet was autodidactic. You had to learn on your own.

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And that's what happens. It's like, in your effort to serve your community and your clients, you had to go and research a lot of stuff. And so I was constantly learning about audiences, marketing, reading Seth Godin, just reading everything so I could serve my clients better. So that's how I got into a lot of marketing, from being a web developer, because it just naturally started going that direction. I could nerd out all day about the history of the Internet and growing up in it.

00:21:01
And plus, I was like a creative person, right? So even in college, one of the things I did in college when I was at UVA, I love graphic design and all of that stuff. So I was, like, designing things for my group. That's where I really started in college, was, like, designing flyers, designing the websites for the organization that I was in at the time, which was Afro Caribbean. So in college, in the early was it the late 90s, everybody was learning computers, and I was learning graphic design and what is it, Adobe?

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What was it called? Photoshop. I was playing with that. And I started off as a graphic designer, and then from graphic design, it went into web design. And then once you get into web design, you have to start really thinking of your website as a business tool and marketing and things like that.

00:21:56
You said it at the beginning, which is so powerful that sometimes the overweight right fitness trainer or the overweight doctor. But this is the difference. If you see someone that's like a fitness trainer that's overweight, you kind of say, okay, you're not following your own Kool Aid. You're not drinking your own Kool Aid, you're not following. But with artists and brands like you said, I am just as guilty.

00:22:17
God and Gigs, we've had tons of conversations about how do we market ourselves, how do we show up in the world, how do we present our best? Because God gave us these gifts. God gave us the ability to play, sing, draw, dance. God gave us his abilities. But then talking about it is a whole nother skill.

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Like, sharing what you do and doing what you do are two different skills. So what I see in you is that you had to put away your artistic side, but in the meantime, God still allowed you to use these other skills to help other creatives. Because in your current branding, that's why I was going to go to what you just said. Your current company, you've had some success stories. Like, I saw what you did.

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Don't try to hide it. You have to drink your own koolaid too, in terms of talking about what you have managed to help other people do by sharing their story, by sharing their brands and telling them how to share it. Because again, in My was a web developer, and it was mostly web development. And my ex husband, because he was a doctor, he went to medical school in the Caribbean, and we had to travel a lot in My, right when I was about to turn 30, I started getting connected at my dad. I started going to my dad's church again and I started getting back into music because it was something even as a mom, I was like, making up songs.

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I was still just for fun, making up songs with my kids and playing around with the piano just for fun. It was still lingering back there in my 20s, even though I wasn't full hardcore and I didn't have a trumpet. And then my dad needed help with the worship leader. I was helping out with the worship leader and all of that, just sort of messing around, like around 2007 and 2008. And I graduated with my master's, and I was like, you know what?

00:24:07
I want a trumpet. I want a stradivarius, like this box stradivarius that I had always wanted as a kid because I started hanging out, because I'd been gone and I lived in different countries, and I traveled a lot in my 20s because of my ex husband's medical school. And I'd reconnected with some of the band people from my high school, the trumpet people from my high school that I was in. And I was like, okay, let me pick up the trumpet. And then again, my friend from Spelman, she got off a tour with Beyonce and I started hanging out with her and she was like, hey, do you still build websites?

00:24:42
So that was probably 2008 is when I really got baptized into branding and marketing for musicians because my friend needed a website. I was working at a boutique web development firm in Silver Spring, Maryland, and I was like, yeah, I still make websites. And that's where I had to really learn, okay, I do this for companies. Like, companies are a lot easier. It's very dry.

00:25:07
But aesthetically, I could see that there's something different. So I did a lot of research on marketing and branding for artists and really did that. And so that's where I got into and as that evolved for doing web designs from her, a lot of other people wanted it as well, because I still needed to make money because I was a mom and I needed a hustle. And web development was good. And then I started promoting events in Baltimore because I moved to Baltimore and this event called Dreads and Heads Poets in the park.

00:25:42
And I was getting more and a lot more people were calling me up to do a lot of stuff. And then I saw that there was like a huge technology gap because a lot of indie artists were also starting because this is like 2008, 2010, where a lot of indie artists were also just getting into the internet and things like that. And I noticed there was like a big gap with arts organizations. And so I started even more. My company began to grow where I was spending websites for this organization called Capital BOP, which is a big jazz organization in DC.

00:26:16
And from that I got more clients. But I think my star client that I've been with for at least, man, it was like at least 13 years now, is Chelsea Green. She's probably a great case study of developing a brand because I started off with her and I learned so much from her because sometimes you learn from your clients as well, not because they present you with a problem and you have to go solve it. And she had done the Strathmore Artisan Residence, and so they had taught her a lot of the business principles of marketing about, for example, if you don't want cheap gigs, don't look cheap. You know what I'm saying?

00:27:01
A lot of people don't understand to me sometimes, and that's where I'm learning my communication skills is like, to me, I like beauty, I like art. But some people, I feel just like you have tone deaf people. I feel like you have aesthetically blind people who don't understand that certain elements and the way you present yourself visually communicates a message. And no, you don't want to use comics. I get really topography is very don't use comic sands.

00:27:30
And sometimes I'm not good at communicating that something has to like no, you don't want to use an ugly picture from your phone on your website. You're in a market that you're competing with Beyonce whether you like it or not. As an artist, there is a sort of competition side of it of like people buy music with their eyes first. They don't hear you often, they see you first. And so if you give off a cheap unprofessional professional is relative, but if you give off a cheap vibe, you're going to get cheap gigs sometimes.

00:28:03
But some people can get around it because they have relationships. But when you're trying to market yourself to festivals, when you're trying to market yourself to radio stations, or trying to be a brand ambassador, you have to look like you understand what excellence looks like. And you can't look cheap. You have to look stylish because that's just how it works. Sorry, I'm going on and on.

00:28:26
No, you dropped some nuggets there, my sister. You dropped some nuggets. I'm going to absolutely make sure that we clip that part where people talk about cheap. And here's the thing. People get mad then, and I say, people, we're talking about artists, we're talking about creators, right?

00:28:40
They get mad at. The industry. They'll say things know, indies can't make it. We don't have the budget that Beyonce have, that the Taylor Swift has. Meanwhile, you proved in a local market, an incredible market, right?

00:28:54
The DC area, Maryland area, that's an incredible musical market. But you were reaching and connecting with people and creating community around the images, around the branding, around that because you were doing it with excellence, because you brought maybe some corporate sensibilities, but more importantly, like the artistic sensibilities you just said it the aesthetics and knowing who you're trying to reach and what it needs to look like. And this doesn't mean you got to spend a lot of money, right? We're not talking about millions of dollars in budgeting. We're talking about like, a good designer I will get myself.

00:29:25
I appreciate you so much because you even gave me advice, even with God and gigs when we first started, and you were asking me like, what are you doing here? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Because even as you were a member of our community, you were looking at it as an audience member and saying, here's what communicated to me. Right?

00:29:40
And so I was able to even in Canva, I'm not a designer, but I started looking with the eyes of, how can I make this impressive and speak to the people who I want to be a part of my community. And I'm grateful for that. I want people to push me and say, hey, this doesn't look right. You exemplify that for people as not necessarily you're not a coach. But I'm saying that's really what a lot of artists need.

00:30:02
We need somebody to tell us, hey, you can do better. Yeah, because I was blessed, because eventually, because I have my own company, but eventually that I just got tired of. It's very challenging to be a musician, to be a mom and run your own company. So eventually I got a job in a marketing department with a billion dollar independent living. So I got surrounded by really high level people who went to school for marketing and they were able to even coach me.

00:30:30
I went through the process of developing brands and marketing materials, and we had to analyze marketing materials as a part of my job with the marketing team. And the number one thing, because it is definitely interesting to go as an artist, like how you get into it. But if you're going to be in the music business, you have to make sure you pay attention to that part, the business part, whether you like it or not, it's fine. Like, even for myself right now, sometimes I take breaks, I just play music for myself. It's just a very expensive hobby because I don't have time to invest in the business part.

00:31:07
Because to me, I love playing my trumpet and there are seasons where I'm just fine because I'm not in a season where I'm doing it professionally because it's a lot to make money as a professional, just depending on what your path is, or I just like playing for myself and so I don't invest in it. But when you jump back into the business part, you have to remember you have customers and fans, and there has to be a part of what you do that speaks to the audience that you're trying to give money from. And so I always check in with my marketing people. Like, how do you communicate aesthetics to people without sounding like a jerk? I think I asked you that too, one time about how do you actually communicate to people.

00:31:51
Because sometimes I get clients that are just like, hey, do what you do whatever you want and it's fine. But then there's other people that I deal with where I have to explain to them why visually this doesn't really fit their market or the aesthetic. And then sometimes I have to let my ego go of my personal preferences because some markets, they're okay with a certain aesthetic that I personally don't find pleasing. You see something like a hip hop flyer. That's a different aesthetic than, let's say, CCM or like a high end jazz brand.

00:32:29
There's just different things for the audience where it's really not about your preference, but what the audience wants. And so you're always trying to design and communicate for your audience. And when major brands and that's something I wanted to do with my company, was to bring enterprise knowledge and make it accessible for artists and especially minority businesses because they can't afford all that. And so it's sort of like my giving back, taking the master's knowledge and bring it to the people, that's the social activist side of it brought it all the way around. I love so, like, when you are developing a brand, like when something because right now I'm working on Shaq's brands, which are reebok, and like, I work on some of those brands and the process that they go through that is first define your persona.

00:33:22
Who is your audience? What does your audience lot, really? There's a lot of market testing, just even music. That's what I loved about Gordy. Like, I studied a lot of the books, too, like Barry Gordy.

00:33:35
There's a lot of music side that people don't pay attention to, to, like, for example, how Motown was created. Barry Gordy constantly market tested a lot of the music. And even if there's a good HBO documentary, I forgot what it is. But they talk about like, Kenny G. Kenny G did a lot of market testing.

00:33:55
There was a lot of market testing involved where they have a group of people, they let you listen, look at the aesthetics, and that's what major organizations do. They take like two or three marketing pieces, present it to a group, and let the audience choose what works for them and is communicating to them. So there's a lot of testing that's involved with marketing. It's not an opinion thing. Like, even what I do as a web analyst, we do a lot of A B testing.

00:34:28
We do a lot of conversion optimization. There's a whole science behind it that goes beyond just what our opinions are or what we feel. As a business person, you really get into testing what your audience wants and what speaks to them. But you have to find, even when I'm talking to artists, it is a bAllence between let me communicate, but then what is exactly me and my message? And so there is a bAllence because you can go off where you're totally about money, and then you lose yourself in your image.

00:35:01
That's not really you, because some people do that too. You go all the way off and do everything, optimized towards the audience, and you lose yourself. And that's where God and prayer comes in, because you have to pray about how to bAllence all these different elements. But it's a fun journey if you have a very growth mindset, experimental mindset of you kind of can't take yourself too seriously and understanding, like, hey, it's evolution. What you look like today may not look be the same in five to six years.

00:35:35
And you just have to find the secret sauce that works for you. See, this is why I learned more in our calls than you ever learned from me in our membership. I'm telling y'all, she just dropped so much wisdom in just a few minutes of Sherry, and I'm like, I need to be writing all this down. You literally answered the question I was about to ask. That's why I love you so much, because I was literally about to say, what's the process?

00:35:59
And you literally walked it down, defining your persona and then that bAllence of not losing yourself in, oh, well, I only do what the audience wants, right? Because then artists get mad about, like you said, we're not authentic if we're just putting out music, we're just putting out art just for them. That's our goal. Our whole goal should be to communicate, but we want to make sure that we're communicating something that we want to share that's really, truly us. And that's where you brought it back to God in prayer.

00:36:25
How do you know who you are unless you have an actual understanding? All the way back to what you talked about in your 20s, right, where you did kind of lose yourself in what was a spiritual area and community, but it wasn't really you. And so I want to go back to where now you talked about how God in gigs I'm really, honestly not trying to set you up to pat me on the back, but there's somebody else that's listening that feels lost in between that world. And it's been honestly, I'll give you a part where I had struggles with communication. How do I reach that person who is where you were right?

00:37:03
Because I didn't know how to articulate. They're in the church, but they're not feeling like they know god has called them, but they're not quite, like, doing what they're supposed to do. And they kind of feel like that's how I felt when I was playing only Christian music, only minister of music. And I knew there was something else, and I didn't know how to express it. You see what I'm saying?

00:37:24
Even now, I'm struggling after eight years of doing this, I still struggle to explain what's that weird feeling. So how did God and Gigs help you in that moment? Because as you can see, there's other people like us that just didn't know how to navigate when we were like, I feel like I'm not being authentic to myself right now. And we would have to do a whole persona thing together. I've been always wanted to do certain things because it's like, hey, this is a fun because you're really great.

00:37:52
The thing that attracted me to you because there are other people who try to do what you do. And to me, maybe I like things that look nice visually. I could see that you took yourself seriously and really had a spirit of excellence about what you do. That really it's like, oh, this guy. And then just reading the book and how I came to God and gigs, that's a whole we need a whole podcast for that.

00:38:16
But the long story short of it is that I knew I needed community, because it's wild out here, man. And you cannot the artist side of myself is a whole different thing, because I was living a double life, basically. I was living the double life as marketing person. But then I also was in the streets with cats like Roy Hargrove and Amin Saleem and who else did I play with? I could drop some names.

00:38:45
I was in them streets. You know what I'm saying, Allen? I know. We know. Yes.

00:38:51
This is the part that I wish. This is the part, like I said, I am talking to more and more people again every week on the podcast. I'm finding more and more that that's not uncommon, right? I thought it was uncommon. You and your incredible skill set of being able to, again, code switch both worlds.

00:39:08
We're not talking cultural. We're talking about artistically and parallel careers. And is this a hobby or is this my profession? Is this my calling? Right?

00:39:17
I'm more podcasting now than I am music. If people look at me more now, I guarantee you I'll talk about podcasting more than I talk about jazz. When does that happen? How do I exist in that world? Right?

00:39:27
And then how is God calling me to it? That's the space that I realized God had put me in. And that's why we need people like you to help us with that, because we don't like you said community. We don't work that out by ourselves. It's impossible.

00:39:42
Like trying to sit there and with your Bible or whatever and you're trying to navigate all this stuff, it becomes like your brain just starts spinning too many different directions and it's why like you said, our calls and our member calls and all that stuff was therapeutic. It was therapy for me as much as it was for everybody else in the group. And you provide so many resources because, you know, I was reading Jordan Rayner's book. It was like you were giving like I think that's your teaching side of, like, you know, how to give frameworks. And I really love that about you because, like you said, you have all this information, you have all this stuff, but you need structure to what you're doing and how to biggest.

00:40:18
And I think us as Gen Xers who grew up with the Internet and all of this stuff, we had to learn all this stuff on our own. So there's no structure to our learning. And it's always good to find someone who's farther along on the journey to help you give a structure. And reading your book, what I realized in all of this is that I had to find my tribe and staying spiritually grounded and being spiritually grounded does not necessarily mean it may be controversial, at least for me. It doesn't necessarily mean your church.

00:40:48
Sometimes being spiritually grounded is like your band.

00:40:54
To me that's very important is to have people around you that have the same vision and values and you can even see that in the music industry. I used to idealistically it's like all these clicks and I really didn't understand all these clicks. But as you get deeper when you have a stable spiritual and emotional environment for a lot of people that's what releases your ability. And so that's what being in God and gigs helped me is to have a spiritual grounding. You need your sanctuary, you need your garden of gethsemane people to help you in the battle because you are going to crucify yourself in this music industry sometimes and you need those people around you that are praying and encouraging and you could do life together.

00:41:42
We know that from and so there's a lot of things we pulled from our evangelical background that helped us to be there. But we are going through a very big transitional period right now with the generation shifts. And I really do believe you could see, just in general, institutions falling apart and it's kind of like guerrilla warfare sometimes where you may need some smaller people to go in and possess the land and music industry where you just need your Caleb. You know what I'm saying? You could be Joshua.

00:42:14
You may just need to have small groups of people that allow you to go out there and do some things. And God and Gigs was that that was my reset grounding. That I could come back to a group of professional spiritual believing who understood the music industry and could be just encouraged and provide information on how to navigate. Look, I cannot thank you enough for being like I'm just going to replay that when I get discouraged. I want to replay that just to remind me that this is what God has called us to, right?

00:42:47
As a community. That's the key word. You kept saying that we needed a spiritual tribe, people that understood. And you are again, I'm so grateful for you. You are just an amazing child of God that God just dropped all the stuff into you.

00:43:01
I'm still haven't pulled back all the layers. We're running out of time. So before we go, I just want to give you a chance. Number one, before you share your brand, come on. This is where I want you to brag on yourself, tell them how to find you.

00:43:12
But before you do, just give one last word of encouragement for anyone. That is where you were back when you were stuck in that whatever that year was that you were kind of not even thinking about the artist. Just give a word of encouragement to that man or woman who has put the artist tree to the side. It doesn't mean they have to become a professional, right? But just give a word of encouragement to that person.

00:43:33
That is where you were back then. Man, I just saw this old Facebook memory of picking up my son from jazz band and on his jazz folder it says, the gifts of God are irrevocable. I don't know why he put that scripture on his. He was like in middle school or something. The gifts of God are irrevocable.

00:43:53
And so what God has placed in you is always going to be there at some level. And two, God is a God of seasons. And it's okay to go through the seasons because it's not really about the Grammys or the. It's about a special message that God has given to you for a specific person and a specific time. Just trust him with the seasons of your life.

00:44:17
Like, I'm in a great season now, even though I was in the did all that well. Now at 45, my kids are in college and I have all this time. I'm an empty nester. And it's really awesome you get this FOMO thing, but I feel like I'm in a time, in an environment where I have even more tools and resources than I did. If I started in the probably would have been burnt out.

00:44:42
God knows how to orchestrate your life. Like, if you think about the great people in the Bible, like Moses or David, their callings were not even Jesus. They were called at a young age and there were seasons of their life where they were not walking fully in their calling, but God had them like Moses was at 80. So you never know what God is doing in your life, but always stand on that scripture. All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes.

00:45:13
God has a plan for your life and just trust the plan and do what he's telling you. Do a little bit. And that's something I learned too, really quickly, was like, sometimes a little bit is just enough. Just do a little bit every day. You don't have to boil the ocean and just do something a little bit every day.

00:45:31
But I know it's harder when you're around all these musicians, but you never like, things can happen in my life. You could be in a suddenly seasoned, just like Israel Houghton says. All of a sudden you get this gig, Allen with some great person and somebody hears you and you're back on tour again. You said, yeah, I want to do this. You're so talented, it could happen for you any moment.

00:45:54
Okay, drop the mic, girl. All right, I'm just going to have to let go shout a little bit. All right, so this is amazing. Please tell them how they can find you because they're going to want to hear more and learn more from you again. They know you're a real artist.

00:46:08
They know that you pick this up and never let it go, that the gifts are irrevocable. So you are in the same space, you're still creative, but yet you also have all this knowledge in terms of branding. So tell them how they can find you and connect with you. After you listen to Allen's podcast and you're curious, and then you could come over to Allegiancebranding.com. That's my website for my personal company.

00:46:32
I definitely have to update it, but that's where you can find me. Allegiancebranding.com. Hopefully he'll put it in the podcast notes. I'll send you the link and all the information. So if you want to find me or have questions about the latest and I can direct you to a lot of great resources on marketing and branding.

00:46:54
My sister Charmaine, I'm telling you, this was like a top ten. I just loved it. All of the conversations we had in God and Gigs 360 gold now are shared out there where they can see why this is so powerful. You are absolutely a joy and inspiration to me. Thank you so much for being your authentic self.

00:47:10
100% Charmaine, every part of it. I'm so glad you're part of the God and Good community. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Yeah. And just thank you for I mean, we didn't even get how you just that's going to have to be another day when I'm we're going to do it.

00:47:23
Yes. Yes. You really nurtured me back to health and I really appreciate what you do. It's so important. And help me and my son, which I didn't even mention, who's a film composer student at Know.

00:47:38
So I just appreciate you, Allen, and thank you for listening to the holy Spirit and pursuing the mission and the call in your life. Thank you so much, my sister. God bless.

00:47:55
You.

00:47:58
My friend. I know you feel so much more confident now in what branding is all about because you've heard someone who's walked the walk not only as a creative but who also has all of the experience and the knowledge necessary to teach you how to market yourself. Now you know that you have to test and try things out and be willing to meet your audience where they are without losing who you are. Charmaine's story is so inspiring. I know that you're going to bookmark this episode and go back and listen for all those golden nuggets that she just shared and make sure that you check out her Allegiance Branding company so that you can also build the site or build the message that you need to build because she is ready to help you.

00:48:44
I am so glad Charmaine is part of God and Gigs and I'm so glad that she spent some time really honing herself in God and Gigs 360 Gold. You heard what she shared and it all happened in that community. It happened in a community of people who knew what she wanted to know and were ready to grow the way that she wanted to grow. And that can happen for you. All you have to do is go to Godandgeeks.com Gold.

00:49:11
You'll see the current offer available for you for a free trial and you can find out what Charmaine found out. You can find out what the rest of our creatives in God and Geeks 360 Gold are finding out that there's protection and there is growth and inspiration in the connection with your fellow creatives. I want to see you there. I hope that you'll check that out right away because we are ready to greet you at a home for creatives like you who have high character and who are ready to be excellent and thrive as creatives in the marketplace. Well, my friend, I can't add anything else to this interview.

00:49:45
It has been so amazing already. So I'm just going to remind you to subscribe to follow us to connect with all of our socials, all of our links are in the show notes once again and I would love to see you in a future episode or in our community. So until next time, continue to become the creative that you were created to be. God bless and we'll see you next episode.

00:50:11
Thanks for joining us here at the God and Gigs show. Please leave us a review on itunes like our Facebook page or visit godandgigs.com and tell us what you thought of this show. We'll be back soon. In the meantime, go create something amazing.

00:50:27
Close.