How to Activate Grace in Your Creative Business with Shae Bynes, Author / Speaker

00:00:05
 Would it shock you if I told you that maybe a lot of your frustrations when it comes to the progress you're making has nothing to do with what you're actually doing? Maybe it's the way you're looking at what you're doing. Maybe it's the way you're thinking about what you're doing in your creative business, your entrepreneurial dream, your projects. Maybe it's something less to do with your results and a lot more to do with your mindset, my friend. If that kind of shifted your boat a little bit and made you think, that's exactly what's going to happen when you listen to this entire episode with our incredible guest, the founder of Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur podcast, host, author and speaker Shae Bynes.

00:00:50
 Her materials, her voice, her impact has reached millions upon millions of Christian entrepreneurs. But today she's speaking to you about how you can shift your mindset to see what God is doing in your life, even when you least expect it. I can't wait for you to hear this interview, so make sure to tune in for the entire thing. But before we do that, give me just a moment to welcome those of you who are new to guiding Gigs, and then we'll get right into this insightful conversation. Artists, musicians and creatives of all kinds looking for help balancing your passion to create with your everyday life.

00:01:30
 Not sure if your faith can coexist with your profession? Welcome to a place where real artists discuss real life. You're listening to the God and Gig show. Visit Godandgigs.com for show notes, links and more information. Hello and welcome to our show.

00:01:48
 Thank you so much for making this podcast a part of your creative day. If you're new to our show, my name is Allen C. Paul. I'm the host and founder of God and Gigs. And you are here at the right time with the right people and the right place because we're here to help you. Whether you're a musician, author, creative, entrepreneur, wherever you find yourself in the intersection of the art and entertainment and content creation space, we are here to help you to live out those values and become a completely confident creative by erasing those temporary creative problems you're facing and solving them with timeless spiritual principles.

00:02:31
You're in the right place and I want you to hang out with us. Make sure you subscribe to this show and all of our socials everything to stay connected with God and Gigs is in our show description. Well, my friend, today's guest is absolutely the epitome of what she would already call a kingdom minded entrepreneur. Because guess what? She founded a company called Kingdom driven Entrepreneur.

00:02:58
Her name is Shae Bynes, and I am so grateful that she has agreed to come on our show and share with us what it takes to see the things that God is putting in your path, not as interruptions, but as opportunities to follow Him. Now, let me tell you a little bit about Shae. She has an incredible bio and she's going to tell you all about her. But I will give you just some of the bullet points that's going to remind you of how amazing she is. Known as the Chief Fire Igniter, she is a passionate storyteller mentor and strategist who equips leaders to be catalysts for transformation in the marketplace.

00:03:36
Her materials have reached over 1 million aspiring and current entrepreneurs around the globe. With her devotionals books and podcasts, she co founded the Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur movement in 2012 and her popular book, Grace Over Grind how Grace will take your business where grinding can't it's helping to shift the way people work, live and engage in the world around us. Now you're going to hear so many amazing anecdotes from Shea in this interview about how she founded Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur, how God continued to show her through dreams and divine interruptions and giving her opportunities to jump into things. That she didn't know were going to be doors that would be open to her, to whole new ways of looking at God and how God was using her in the business and entrepreneurial space. But when you see how she got there, not just what she achieved, but how she walked through it, how she figured out the reasons that things felt like they weren't moving, but then when she saw what God was doing in them, she was able to stick with it and then see incredible results.

00:04:44
And she's going to help us to see that results might not be the thing we're looking for, but more what God is doing through our businesses, through our creative lives, and through our entrepreneurship to really impact the world. It's an incredible, incredible look at how we see what we do impacts the way that we do it. My friends, this is one of those episodes. You got a bookmark, get ready to share with a friend and save it on whatever platform you're using because you're going to want to come back to this and take more notes. My friends, I am so privileged to introduce to some and reintroduce to others the host and founder of Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur, Shaebai.

00:05:31
 Ladies and gentlemen, I am beyond honored and humbled to have this amazing entrepreneur author, podcast, host, and as we just found out a little while ago before it turned on the mic, neighbor, so we are so pleased to welcome Shae Bynes to the Got and Gig Show. How are you, my friend? I am doing great. Good to be here. So thanks for having me.

00:05:52
 Yes, we have been laughing. I said, okay, when you do the pre, hey, we're podcasters and we have to do all the careful little things to say who are you and where are you from and how are we going to negotiate this interview? And then we just spent the last five minutes talking about the fact that we're literally like five minutes from each other. Exactly. So, friends, this is how God works.

00:06:13
 There are no coincidences in the Kingdom. This is how we know that God has brought us together. But say, even though we're getting to know each other in such a fun way, a lot of people listening, even though you've been doing this for years following God, they may not know you in the way that we want them to know you. So I hate to do this. You know, this drill.

00:06:32
 30 seconds, tell them all about you, but most importantly, the things that you'd want them to know upon meeting you for the first time. Sure. So I am Native Floridian. I am a mother of three, daughters of three different generations. I am a wife to my high school sweetheart Phil.

00:06:49
 We've been together since age 16 for the last over decade. Let's see what's this 2012 started. The Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur movement really focused on inspiring, teaching, mentoring, advising entrepreneurs who desire to do business in partnership with God. At that time of starting that, I didn't even know what a Kingdom Driven entrepreneur was. It was a total God moment where I had to learn, like, what is it?

00:07:12
 You couldn't even Google and find an answer. It was like, Lord, what is this? No one's having this conversation like this. What are you talking about? Right?

00:07:20
 And so that's how I started. But my background was corporate, and then I was an entrepreneur in the real estate investing industry, like, real estate investing here in South Florida. And then God divinely interrupted my life in the most beautiful way, which led to the work that I'm doing now. And so it's been a treat. And we'll just start there and see what else we get to explore in our conversation.

00:07:43
 Yeah, there's so much to explore. Right? Because the first thing I love, even about your store, when you talked about going from corporate, and then I didn't even know what this was, what this entrepreneur kingdom was. So I want to kind of start with that, which is that kind of divine interruption, because all of us, number one, I'm laughing about both of us. Like, nobody says, what do you want to be when you grow up, when you're a kid?

00:08:06
 And they say, I want to be a podcaster in the Kingdom Entrepreneur. Nobody says that. Yes, you talk about meeting your husband in high school. So just tell me, were there any hints of of what God was going to do in terms of having any idea of wanting to have something in terms of your own business? Or maybe when you were getting into corporate or real estate.

00:08:29
 Was there any hints as you started this journey before, when you were first coming up, were there any hints that this was something that kind of stirred your spirit? Sort of. So if I go back to if I kind of think about the threat of my life when I was young, like super young. I mean, I'm still young. I'm 46, but I'm still young.

00:08:48
 But when I was little, I used to love stories. I loved telling stories. I loved reading stories, I loved writing stories. So one thing that was really clear growing up that definitely has translated to this part of my life is that, I mean, the first thing, my bio, it says I'm a passionate storyteller. It's the first thing in my bio.

00:09:07
 I don't say I'm a speaker. I say I'm a passionate storyteller. And so I knew, I think I had an inkling that I would be writing in the future, but I had no idea what I'd be writing about, who I'd be writing for. My first book was in the third grade. It was called the Atari Freak.

00:09:23
 Because I love video games. Right? So there's a threat of that in my life from that perspective. I didn't have any business owners in my family, and no one that I knew really was a business owner. So I didn't have a concept of entrepreneurship until my college years, when I had friends who were really starting to build up that thought process in me.

00:09:44
 And so when I started my corporate career, I kind of grew up with, go get some good grades and go get a good job. And so when I did do that, I'm realizing relatively quickly in my corporate career that I'm on this executive path, but I'm looking at the executive path and what they're sacrificing to be on that path. And I'm like, that's not feeling really good. To me, this had nothing to do with engaging God as it relates to my work life. This was just me doing my thing at this point of my life.

00:10:12
 And I just knew that what I was seeing wasn't resonating with my heart. And so I started exploring the side business aspect of things and starting to explore what I was passionate about and just trying to create and seeing what that looked like. And I just did that in a number of different ways in business, on the side, while I was working my corporate career. The whole God interruption came later. But that's interesting.

00:10:34
 That the clues that God does give even before, you know, and I didn't even ask about your faith life in terms of that. But you're right. Like, this was very practical, where sometimes you don't know what you want, but you do know what you don't want. That's right. You know that you don't want this part of your life.

00:10:50
 This particular, like you said, the rat race of trying to climb the corporate ladder, it just doesn't sit well with you. And then you said you had friends and had people around you like, wait a minute, what's this other life over here? And I would love to equate that to some of the creatives that might be listening right now. The same thing where they might say, well, I have this inkling to write or to play or to create or to play music or to write music or whatever, but I don't know how to make it work. But I do know I don't want this.

00:11:16
 And God will give you those clues that light into your feet. Right. That's the next very next step. But the next step is not into the same old thing that everybody else is doing. And it sounds like at some point it was enough of a push, I guess, where you started to see, okay, now you got to take a deep dive into something.

00:11:33
 So what was that? What was the push into the deep end? Okay, so I just realized one other thing as you were talking that I'll answer that question. Sure. The other thing was that I sat here and I was like, you know what?

00:11:45
 The podcasting thing was back in my past, too, even though podcasting wasn't a thing I used to record when I was dating my husband, I would record and act like I was a DJ and I would record my voice. I'd do music and then I'd give a message over the music and I'd record it on a cassette tape and give it to him. So I was enjoying the idea of just even connecting from a radio perspective, too, back then. So that's kind of funny. I just kind of made that connection.

00:12:10
 I got to say, you do have absolutely the DJ vibe. As soon as you said that, it was like, I absolutely would listen to your morning show. Like, every day I would listen to your morning show. So God clearly might have something. He might have something for you there.

00:12:25
 Yeah, he might have something for you in the future we may be looking at we're just going to put that from our lips to God's ears. Absolutely. What was that then? I guess, like you were about to ask the next thing that started to say, okay, this is not just an idea, because I saw something in your bio about 2012 and meeting somebody, and that's I think, again, it's where God uses these relationships or uses these inklings and things like that. But at some point you do have to say, okay, this is not just a pipe dream.

00:12:56
 This is something I'm going to go on by faith. So, yeah. What did that look like for you? Yeah. And so to take a step back before 2012, when I was in my corporate career, I grew up in church, but I didn't really have a personal relationship with God.

00:13:10
 I was very achievement and performance driven. I knew Jesus loved me, but I didn't have really a concept of engaging God outside of Sunday morning, going to church and Wednesday night youth group or something. Right. And so when I was thinking about my goals and my dreams, I was not thinking of them from the perspective of what does God have for me and what I was created for? I was just coming from like, well, what do I want to do?

00:13:32
 And then I would ask God to bless my plans and my dreams, right? So I would do that, like, every January. And this particular year, this was 2009, I'm doing what I normally did in January. And for the first time, I heard, like, a voice back to me, and it was, you're going to leave this job by June of 2010. And I knew it was God because that wasn't part of my plan.

00:13:56
 And I didn't have a path. I was a project manager and a program director and a strategist. I'm like, I don't have a strategy for that. I knew it was God. And so I wrote that down in my journal, and I'm like, all right, so then what does a strategist do?

00:14:10
 They create a plan, and they have a whole like, I don't know exactly how this is going to happen, but these are the things that I think are necessary for me to take a step out and leave this job. So I did what did what I do. And so I go throughout this year increasingly uncomfortable feeling this nudge from the Holy Spirit, like, get ready to go. You're going to be leaving. It got so uncomfortable that I started praying and asking God for them to lay me off.

00:14:33
 Because if they laid me off, I would have had a year's worth of severance pay, and I had a great paying corporate job, and they would have had a year's worth of health insurance. And so I was like, some of the things that were the top concerns of mine for leaving a corporate career, I was like, those two things would be solved, Lord, so just let them lay me off while all these other people are getting laid off. Like, lay me off too. And in the midst of that, people were getting laid off, and I got a promotion, bro. And I'm like, this is what we're doing, so I'm going to get a promotion in the midst of layoffs when I'm praying to get laid off.

00:15:06
 And so I'm like, all right, clearly I'm not going to be able to leave my way. I go into that next year. I'm in 2010, I was at a business conference in April, and I was ironing my clothes, getting ready to go to the last session of that conference. And I heard from God. Like, I had never, ever heard from God.

00:15:22
 I actually haven't heard from Him like this since. And it was go. Like, I felt it. Like, I heard it. I felt it.

00:15:28
 It's not like it was audible, but it might as well have been because it was so strong. And I knew I didn't know where I was going. I just knew where I needed to go from. And so I called my husband. Thank God he has a gift of faith.

00:15:38
 And so he knew about this journey the whole way. I'm like, Dave, I got to go. I don't know. God just spoke to me in a way I've never experienced this before. And he's like, well, if this is what God's saying, let's do it.

00:15:50
 So I went home from the conference, called my boss, and was like, I don't know how to tell you this, but I got to get my 30 days notice. And sure enough, my last day. And it didn't make any sense on paper, let's be clear. I wouldn't even advise anyone to do it the way I did it. Yeah, it was so God, I couldn't deny it.

00:16:08
 And so I left, and my last day was May 31, 2010, one day before June of 2010. I didn't make that connection till months later. So that was the first God interruption, and it was a big interruption, the next God interruption. So then I go into my real estate investing business, and I'm like, now I got all the time in the world to do this real estate. So I was hustling.

00:16:29
 I was grinding it out. I'm like, I got all this time. I'm going to make this thing happen. God's got me out here without my corporate career. Now I'm going to go and make this thing happen.

00:16:36
 And so I go hard for six months. And I knew what I was doing. Let's be clear. I knew what I was doing because I'd been doing it and growing on the side. But I was making this much progress, and about six months in, I got another interruption.

00:16:50
 This one wasn't loud. This was a soft, still but convicting voice, which was, Are you done yet? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I am done. And that was when I inclined my ear towards, wait a second. You're the one who called me out, and I haven't even talked to you about why you called me out or what I'm supposed to even be doing.

00:17:10
 I just assumed that I'm supposed to be over here grinding it out, making things happen with this real estate business that I started while I was in my corporate career. So that then inclined my ear towards, what is it that you called me to do? So it began my journey of just kind of paying attention and really seeking God in the context of my work. And two years into that, I was still doing real estate. And then I started advising people that were coming into real estate investing.

00:17:38
 But then one of my real estate buddies this is 2012 now, one of my real estate buddies said, I met this woman, and when I met her, I really felt like I was supposed to connect the two of you. I'm like, okay, cool. So he connects me with this woman. She was a business coach. And we got on the phone, and she's like, when we were done talking, she's like, I have this client that I really feel like I was supposed to connect you to.

00:17:58
 So she connects me to this woman named Antonina Gear. This is March 2012. And when we got on the phone, she was in South Carolina. She had a full time job and a business on the side. And when we connected on the phone, it was like one of those connections that you knew was more than just a coincidence.

00:18:15
 And so we became fast friends. But about six to eight weeks in, I was like, Antonina, I think that we met for a really specific reason, and I can't shake it. And she's just like, I've been kind of feeling the same. So she's like, let's pray about it. We prayed about it separately and came back in a week and talked about some stuff.

00:18:35
 And I'm like, no, it's none of that. Let's pray again. We did this three times. Pray, come back. Pray, come back.

00:18:39
 Pray, come back. And that next time. She says, you know, God gave me these words. I put them in my journal. This had been months prior.

00:18:45
 I don't know what they are, what they're for, or what do you wants me to do with them, but the words are kingdom driven entrepreneur. And when she said that, what flew out of my mouth. I didn't have time to think about it. I had no idea what I was talking about. I said, that's a community, and it's a movement, and it starts with a book.

00:19:00
 And I was as surprised as she was that those words came out of my mouth. And so then I realized, I don't know what a kingdom driven entrepreneur God gave me. Christian, who gave us yeah, he gave you he gave you what to say before you knew what to say. That's what he said. He'll tell you what to say?

00:19:17
 He'll tell you what to say. He didn't tell you that you know what you were saying. That's right. So I'm having these, like, God encounter type moments that I can't deny. So then it was like, me and this stranger who had become fast friends are like, okay, Jesus, what's a kingdom driven entrepreneur?

00:19:32
 And how in the world are we starting with writing a book? What in the world is this? It was the craziest thing, but we said yes to it because we could not deny his voice, his hand, his wind all over it. So we were just having no idea what we were doing, taking step by step by step. And then six months later, we actually did release a book, gave it away for free, and invited people into this Facebook group.

00:19:56
 And that's how we started, literally. Just step at a time. Not showing up as guru, experts with 10,000 hours of expertise to tell you something. But just like, we're just obedient and just walking this out, and we're figuring it out as we go, and we were really transparent about that. Oh, my gosh.

00:20:12
 Every step by faith. Now I have to go back, and I never once insert myself into the story, except the fact that, number one, we find out that we're, like, ten minutes away from each other. Next, you say that you spent a year fighting with god about your departure in 2010. Mine was a year in 2009. My departure date was june 30, when god's like, go, okay, yes, mine was a year before where it was exact same thing.

00:20:40
 I literally could put my story in your story, except put mine in the church. But mine where it's god is saying, step away from full time ministry and walk into the entrepreneurial creative freelance space. And it was the exact same thing where it's like, god, this makes no sense. I'm walking out into nothingness. The red sea is in front of me, and you're telling me to go forward, and this makes no sense.

00:21:04
 And I think so many of our listeners now viewers, listeners, I think you said it perfectly about being a planner and a strategist, and even as an entrepreneur, another gentleman that I've interviewed said it perfectly in terms of jumping out of the airplane. The idea that you step out by faith and you have no clue. God is a strategist. Like, he does have a plan. And nobody jumps out of a plane without a parachute, so he will tell you what to put on.

00:21:32
 He told you to have the real estate. He told you to make the calls. He told you to connect with these people. But now the actual information, like you said when you spoke it, that part he didn't tell you, listen, that just. Came out my mouth, and I was like, whoa.

00:21:49
 It was a total interruption. I was like, I thought, this is divine interruptions. But it was beautiful. I love that thing about the airplane, the parachute. Relatively early into the adventure of walking things out with kingdom driven entrepreneur, the guy had given me this dream, and I was at the top of a skyscraper.

00:22:04
 It was dark outside, but there was, like, this one light at the top of the building, and I saw that there was, like, this board. It looked like a diving board. It was like a wooden board that was on the edge of the building. And I'm looking at it, and I'm like, that thing doesn't look like it's attached to the building. Like, if I got on that thing, I would just fall.

00:22:21
 But I couldn't help but I was so compelled to go over to this board, and I felt like I was supposed to get on it. So I get close to it, and I put my foot on it, and I'm like, oh, this thing is not connected to this building. And I'm like, this is just ridiculous. Should not get on this thing. But I kept feeling this nudge, like I'm supposed to get on it.

00:22:37
 And so then I got like, this tap. It wasn't a shove. I just kind of got this tap. And I end up on this board and I start free falling. And I'm free falling.

00:22:44
 I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm about to die. I hear a voice that says, Check your pocket. So I go into my pocket and I felt this button. And then I hear push it. And I push this button, a parachute comes out.

00:22:55
 And then I hear you see? I got you. And I woke up from my dream and it was like, that was him letting me know, like, I've got you. Keep going. I've got you.

00:23:03
 I know it feels like you're falling off of buildings, but know that I'm with you and stay with me. We'll do this together. So beautiful. And this is where I think the key for most of us that are starting things right. Yeah, you get that push and we could go so many different ways.

00:23:20
 Shae, in terms of hearing from the Holy Spirit, how to know that voice is God and not yours, right. Not moving out of impulse or emotion, but moving out of obedience, as you said. But I think a key moment now, and I've struggled with this even now, trying to explain to people the what next. So you get the push. You say it's a kingdom community.

00:23:38
 You say, we got to start with a book, but then it's the messy middle, then it's the moment. So I want you to tell me a moment where maybe either you started to question or just had to say, okay, God, you got me out here. We're starting the thing. We're starting kingdom driven entrepreneur, even though we don't know what it is. Were there any moments after that initial excitement and yes, God's moving?

00:23:59
 Were there any moments where you had to go back and say, okay, God, we got to push through, even in the midst of building this thing? I feel like those moments happened very frequently. But what they were, I didn't consider those obstacles. They were just continuous invitations to stay in Him and to keep seeking Him concerning what he called us to. Because since my personality type is to create a blueprint, create a strategy and run, and now I'm in an instance where it's like, no, I actually have to lean into God in a way that I never have before.

00:24:30
 Every time that I was faced with something, it was because it was going against my personality type, which is to have more insight, more information, more vision before moving, because it's just how I'm. Designed to how you built. So for me, it was the Antonina, my co founder, she hasn't been involved for years, but she's my dear sister, she was designed differently, so she had her own journey and I was having my own journey. And for me, every point. Of discomfort that it's like, okay, here we go again was just another invitation to lean in, hear, discern and take the risk, because I was learning to cultivate an ear to hear Him in the first place.

00:25:09
 But I wouldn't have evidence that I actually heard Him if I didn't take the step of faith without having the blueprint and the details to then watch how he's moving or course correcting or revealing. So I was doing a lot of exercising the faith muscle and seeking Him in his heart concerning stuff and then taking a step in faith, not knowing for sure. I don't know. I think it's God. I don't know.

00:25:34
 It's not against the scripture. So I'm going to take a step forward and watch how God reveals as I go. And that exercising that faith muscle then built confidence that, oh, yeah, I do hear Him. And yes, he's showing me things and yes, I can align myself, my heart with his and my mind with his concerning what he's called us to. But it was a whole lot of, like, just being willing to just take the next step even when it didn't make sense to me.

00:26:00
 I had tons of opportunity to do that. Yeah. To kind of lean on your own understanding versus, oh, my gosh, all the time. Beautiful. It's so important.

00:26:10
 Like I said, I think many of us struggle with that moment, which is, okay, I've taken this step. I say this myself all the time. God, I passed this test before. Why do I have to take it again? God, I passed this test.

00:26:21
 I already passed a test of faith. Why do I have to do another test of faith? And that's the proof that you haven't passed the test, right? Because you keep questioning, why do I have to keep taking more tests? That is why god is like, yeah, no, you don't get it, son.

00:26:35
 I'm so sorry. So this is where I love to talk about now, the valleys, but we also love to talk about the mountaintops. And now you had at the point before we're going to tease it, right? So there's a big announcement, I feel like, at the end of this. But at the time that I was looking at your podcast, it was a global community at the time that tell me a mountaintop moment where now, after hearing God, after following obedience, after struggling and saying, hey, okay, I'm going to trust you, Lord, give me a moment.

00:27:05
 That he really verified it through the actions and the things where other people were being blessed and how the community grew after that. Yeah, absolutely. So I would say for those first five years, it was really just this consistent diligence to keep showing up, keep showing in faith, serve the people that were showing up and all of those things. And so we were seeing lots of breakthrough in community, and we were seeing, like, God's move and all of those things. But our real breakthrough moment, we were super low revenue at the time.

00:27:33
 Like super low revenue. I saw God provide in other ways, and it was not through Kingdom LLC during those years financially, but what happened was just that consistency in showing up and following God. This book, that the one that's in the middle. Grace over grind how Grace will take your business. We're grinding can't.

00:27:50
 That's a second. That's a fifth anniversary edition, but the first one came out in 2018. And when I was writing that book, lord said to me, when you release this book, you're going to be the poster child for the message in this book. I don't know what that meant, but I just continued to write the book, whatever released the book. And a few months after that, it was like the favor of God.

00:28:11
 It was wild. It was like that same year, all of a sudden, there was a few things that only God could do. I'll tell you exactly what they were. One of those was he had sent someone my way who had read the book and is like, hey, have you considered adding a reading plan for this book in the U version Bible app? Because I was really blessed by it, and I think this would be really great.

00:28:31
 And I'm like, no, I hadn't considered that. But I'll check it out. She connected me and all the things. I put multiple reading plans in the U version mobile app, which has millions and millions of users now. It wasn't the fact that I created the plants.

00:28:43
 This is what God did. I did the plans. So that was my fish and loaves. Okay, yeah, I did the little plans. What God did was he put one of those plans in the first place category, in the work category, which means that if anyone was searching for a plan, as soon as they go to work, they would always see mine first.

00:29:00
 There was no SEO strategy to get there. There was no sponsorship opportunities to pay to be in that spot. And mine sat there for well over a year. I think it was really like two years. But what happened was, because it was there, tens of thousands of people were now being introduced to Kingdom driven entrepreneur coming into our email list, whatever, everything.

00:29:20
 We were starting to grow, like two and a half times, three times we went from what we used to spend $250 a month on leads, because remember I told you we were low revenue, so we were paying $250 a month for leads. We were getting ten times that for $0. And everything we were doing in that season was just beginning to multiply. And it just didn't stop. It was like that year, it was just like, okay.

00:29:42
 It was like, yes, he breeds on this thing. And all of a sudden, what we had been showing up, doing diligently for five years was all of a sudden, now people are asking me to speak on stages and all the things, and I'm like, okay, Lord, we're somewhere else now. Okay, go into that next level. But that was after that's, like, six. Years in all I see in my head and hear, Shae is seed.

00:30:06
 You were planted. Five years of seed harvest was exponential because you planted. That is such a beautiful picture. Again, I think of the person every time I do these podcasts I get, so it's hard for me to stay focused because I just think about the person that's listening. I think about the person that's listening that has been doing it.

00:30:23
 And they're like, on year four, day 364 of doing what you just said, of trying, it's like, it's not working. It's not working. It's not growing. It's not growing. And God just says, Keep planting, keep planting, keep planting, keep planting.

00:30:37
 And it's not pie in the sky. It's not genie. It's the principle that God says, you will reap what you sow. God's not mocked. Like, God is not playing with us.

00:30:48
 You are a perfect example of that, how now God has elevated you again to glorify Him, not for your own glory, but to glorify Him. He said, hey, my child, favor is favor is not fair. But favor is also dedicated to those who are willing to plant. So you were willing to plant, and now you're walking in it. And now I got to kind of pivot a little bit because success, hey, God blessed you.

00:31:14
 God's given you a wonderful husband. And now it sounds like, from what I heard, we teased a little earlier that God had another surprise for you. Yeah, always filled with surprises.

00:31:28
 No? Yeah, in 2019, at the end of that year, as I was really seeking God about the year ahead and kind of what's going on, I kept getting these visions where I was realizing that I wasn't in the CEO seat anymore. Now, my co founder, she had been long gone. She'd been gone for years, but there was a whole team. And so at this point, I was CEO, and my husband was barely on the team.

00:31:48
 We had brought him on the team in early 2019 just because the Lord said so. He didn't have a role. It was just like, Come on the team. Because God said so. We were still trying to figure out why he was even there.

00:31:56
 He has massage practice he's had for 20 years. Okay. So I was like, I'm seeing visions and I'm not in the CEO seat. So I knew God was preparing me to not be the CEO anymore, but I didn't know who was going to be the next person. And so I go into 2020, I'm having conversations with my leadership team, and I'm like, we have a prophetic strategist.

00:32:16
 We have our COO. And I was in conversations with them, and I'm like, God keeps showing me these visions and I'm not in the CEO seat, but I don't know who it's going to be. Like, there's not somebody that's obvious. I knew it wasn't the CEO, we didn't know who it would be. And so I was in the tension of that for a few months.

00:32:31
 And then my prophetic strategist says to me one day, you know, Phil has been cultivated, my husband to be the next CEO. And I laughed because in the moment it didn't seem to make sense. But when I was done laughing, I was like, it's actually true. If there's anyone who's been by my side, has prayed over this thing, even if he hasn't been in it, has been of it, it's my husband. And so I was like, Lord, if this is what you're doing, I believe this is what you're doing.

00:33:02
 If so, please talk to your son because he has a whole massage practice and vision around this thing and this will be a surprise to both. Is this a surprise? And so God was so faithful to do that and gave my husband a very distinct dream that symbolized this transition of power and his readiness to take those reins. And told him that just as I've been mothering a movement, now it's time for that movement to be fathered, we know that he won't even be the CEO forever, but now it's like, okay, but it's part of that process. So the last couple of years have been interesting because my husband took on the CEO seat at the end of 2020 and then I had to learn how to be the advisor of this movement as opposed to the CEO and go through that letting go and trusting and all of those things.

00:33:48
 And so it's been an interesting journey. And then what you're probably alluding to is I was hosting the podcast for nine and a half years and at the end of last year, the Lord's like, yeah, so the next step is to let go of the podcast. That was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking because I love doing the podcast. But at the same time, more than loving doing the podcast, I love being aligned with God's heart and what he's doing.

00:34:13
 And so I let go of that. And now the podcast is a whole new season, a whole new even mission for the purpose of our podcast. It's the next level of what it needs to be. And so it's been a lot of letting go over these last couple of years and there's levels of discomfort with that, but at the same time excitement because he's been also moving me into my next right. And so it's a beautiful process, full of surprises.

00:34:41
 I call it the Wild and Crazy and Amazing Adventure with God. Oh, beautiful. We're actually reading a book in my church by Mark Batterson called The Wild Goose Chase. Oh, I've heard of that. Yeah.

00:34:51
 And it refers to the holy Spirit as the wild goose. And it literally describes what you just described, which is it feels like you're chasing God. Where are you going? This makes no sense. And yet it's an adventure.

00:35:04
 It's a wild adventure that God invites us to. I wanted to quickly talk about because this beautiful picture that you said of following God in obedience, and I wanted to turn it now to the people that you work with, the clients, the entrepreneurs, the creators that I work with in my community, we have the same kind of DNA, right where God does birth things in us. But they are also on the wild goose chase. They're also on the wild adventure. And I wanted to ask you, what do you find most of the time?

00:35:33
 I know everybody's different, everybody's path is different, but what are the common issues that people who are trying to they know they're called into the Kingdom, so we're going to set that aside. They know god. Yes. And they know they're called and they know they're entrepreneurs. But what would you say is the first thing that most of them tell you?

00:35:54
 Shae, this is where I'm hung up. This is where I just don't know where to go. Was there something that you constantly had to help them each time so that someone that's listening or watching right now, they can do the same? Totally. And yes.

00:36:08
 Whether they've told me that this is what they were struggling with or not, I knew that this is the area in which they were struggling by their by their actions or their words. And that is cultivating that confidence that they actually do hear God. And I say hear, but I mean in all the various ways that God engages with us. And that piece is really huge because what I find interesting is you come into this entrepreneurial space and you'll be expert led in a minute. Oh, that person has they've cracked the nut.

00:36:38
 They're the expert. And they're selling me a blueprint. So I will go and buy that blueprint and in faith, take all the steps, do all the things without any question following the blueprint given by some man or woman who's like, here's a breakthrough and I've got it for you. But then we come into the Kingdom and say, I want to do I'm accepting this invitation to do business in partnership with you. And then we put this weird burden on ourself that doesn't belong to us because Jesus already said, I carry that.

00:37:05
 And then we question, like, the very Creator, the one who knows you before your mama knew you, the one who knows you're in from the beginning. Then we put this weird burden on ourselves where heaven has a blueprint, but we're like, but I don't know if this is really hot or not. And so the big tension for a lot of people is actually embracing the freedom to explore and to take the risk that maybe you might be wrong. But I would rather seek the one who gives the blueprint from heaven for me and be slightly wrong and then course corrected than to not engage him at all and then follow some other blueprint and be completely off the path of what God's called you to that's so good and so cultivating. That confidence only comes with the freedom and the willingness to know he loves you.

00:37:55
 You are his beloved son or daughter. You're not having to perform for Him, and he's delighted that you want to do business in partnership with Him. And he's there to be the course corrector as you go. So you don't have to feel like, oh, if I get this wrong, it's like, oh, I made God look bad, you're not that powerful. Oh, if I do this and I get this wrong, what does that mean about my life and God?

00:38:17
 Nothing. It means that you are doing your best to follow God and he is still with you, to guide you, to help you reveal things, to reveal the things that are on his mind and his heart concerning you. So I find that as soon as people embrace the freedom which comes from a proper place of identity, of who you are, knowing you're beloved and there's no condemnation and shame as you're walking this thing out, then you start to then exercise the faith muscles like I talked about and start taking those steps as if it's not against the Scripture, because it's not going to be against his character in his nature. But if there's something that he's giving you is not counter to that, then instead of like overanalyzing, call that the mind grind. Overanalyzing an analysis, paralysis, over whether this was God, whether this was the pizza that I ate last night, or is this the enemy who actually wants me to progress in the things of the kingdom?

00:39:02
 Take the step as if and watch how he reveals things, confirms things, course corrects things as you go. Then he's delighted to reveal this to you as you walk it out. And I think when we get in that proper posture, that's when we have the freedom to move. Oh, man, so good. I'm going back to that little phrase you just said called the mind grind.

00:39:25
 My mind. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Because the two things that came into my mind when you said that I'm guilty of this, we are all guilty of this, right? We follow what we can see.

00:39:33
 So the blueprint, the person, the guru, this instagram influencer that says insane profits with one email, right, that is so much more attractive because we can see it, we think we can predict it. Right? So we think that past results indicate future results. Right? We think it past performance.

00:39:53
 Now, you're saying, and I agree wholeheartedly, I've seen it in my own life, that God invites us to take risks that may not work. The two phrases that came into my mind first was Joshua, right? Joshua's following Moses. He technically has a blueprint because Moses do all this stuff. Right, do it exactly.

00:40:10
 That gave it all. But at the end of Joshua's life, I remember that there's a scripture that says there still remained land to be conquered. Joshua did all the things and at the same time he was obedient and God's like, yeah, but these people still got to follow through with some other stuff. So even when you being a multigenerational yes. So even when you follow all the steps, that doesn't mean God's like, rubber stamp, everything's going to work perfectly, that amount of risk.

00:40:36
 And then the other scripture came to mind is that ecclesiastes, which is class your bed upon the waters because you don't know which one is going to come back seven or eight or which one. And you just said it like, go out, try some things. And failure is not an indication that God is not with you. I think we struggle with that. We think one failure means God led me wrong or I didn't follow God.

00:40:55
 Right. When he may just want to teach you through these little cost, I guess I'm going to say gambling with small bets. Right. Small risks, small tries, and it's okay for, like you said, some of them not to work and you go back to God and as long as you go back to God, he's like, cool, let's reason together. Let's talk it out and figure out which is the next step for your life or for your entrepreneurship.

00:41:17
 Yeah, I think that's really important. I think we have to change our there's a couple of things he changed my lens on that really helped me. One of those things is he redefined success to me. Okay. And this was very early on, it was like, success is your faith plus your obedience.

00:41:31
 If you're operating in faith and you have those corresponding actions and you're operating in obedience, meaning you're also willing to do the things that are really uncomfortable for you, you're already successful. Now, the fruit of that success, the things that the world looks at to call it success, which is those outward manifestations, those are things that happen as you go. You will start to see those things happen as you continue. But those aren't your success. Your success is in me.

00:41:57
 The walking this journey out in faith and obedience, you are already successful. And that helps me a lot because then I'm not looking at these particular outcomes to be the evidence that I'm flowing in and with God. I'm not looking at it from that perspective. I'm saying I'm trusting and believing, which is why I could continue on for four or five years when other people might say, gosh, well, if I didn't reach X-Y-Z revenue by then, I'd be like, this business is a flop. I'm going to stop doing that, I was able to look at fruitfulness in a different way.

00:42:27
 It wasn't only based off of what other people, whether they're Christian business owners or not Christian, but would put as. These are your targets. These are the things that are the. Indicators of your KPIs. Right, my KPIs.

00:42:43
 I had heavenly KPIs. Okay. I'm looking at eternal ROI. I'm looking at financial ROI. But I'm not judging everything based off of financial ROI.

00:42:53
 I'm judging based off of what's happening in kingdom Impact and kingdom influence. What is that looking like? How am I growing? How are the people around me that I'm pouring into growing? And what are the financials and that's a different way of looking or even looking at the numbers.

00:43:08
 How many new leads do we get? And what was the cost? Our success wasn't based off of those KPIs. Makes sense. And so it's like so because he changed my framework around success, it really helped to look at this from his perspective rather than my own.

00:43:28
 Which also meant that if I did some things that I really felt I was following the leading of the Lord on with kingdom driven entrepreneur. But then how it worked out was like, it's not exactly what I was expecting. Instead of saying, Well, I must have heard God wrong, I'd be like, okay, Lord, that didn't work out the way I thought. And I really felt like I was following you. But instead of condemning myself and thinking that I didn't hear you, can you show me your perspective on this?

00:43:54
 What's the gold that I can take from what I just experienced that can help me go into the future? What does that look like? So that helps me find the lessons, all the goodness that you could take from the stuff that was either just plain crappy or just did not meet your expectations at all, or whatever it was. And just those mindset shifts really make a difference. Yeah, I love when you mentioned that word about condemnation, about condemning ourselves.

00:44:21
 And that no condemnation in Christ Jesus. Right? Romans. And it's just crazy that we do that. God doesn't do that.

00:44:26
 God isn't like, shaking his finger like, you bad mistake. You should have. He never does that wagging finger to us whenever we are stepping out in faith. I want to jump into one other thing that came into mind when you were talking about again, I'm stuck on mind Grind, the hustle mentality that clearly God kind of said you kind of mentioned it when you first put out the book, that you would be like the face that you would be like someone that was really leading this message. And yet, you know, between again, we kind of mentioned the whole influencer culture about the idea that we still need to make this work on our own.

00:45:02
 That hustling staying up all night sacrificing your family, sacrificing whatever it is, you just redefine success already. For us. So just remind somebody that's listening or watching right now, especially again, that person that is still it's one thing to hear it, it's another to do it. I think that's why we're impressing it so much and maybe why the Holy Spirit got me stuck on this, because someone is still like, okay, but what it really comes down to is I need to do more. What it really comes down to is I need to follow one more PDF and what the invitation has been.

00:45:37
 I feel like everything you said has been to rely on the grace because can you just expound just the grace part of the grace of a grime? Yeah, totally. Totally. So this shift happened for me, and this is basically right at the root of the Book, grace of a grime. I had this encounter with God while I was sitting in church.

00:45:54
 Our pastor was doing a message on Matthew, chapter eleven, verse 28 through 30. And this is the scripture commonly known when Jesus says, come to me all of those who are weary, I'll give you rest. And he talks about how his yoke is easy and his burden is lightest. Those scriptures, very popular scriptures, but he read it in the message that day, which I had never heard before, and it says, are you tired, worn out, burnt out on religion? Come to me, get away with me, and you will recover your life.

00:46:21
 I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me, work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you.

00:46:32
 Keep company with me and you will learn to live freely and lightly. Listen, bro, I heard that and it was like my whole soul was like, yes, there is a gap between what I'm experiencing and what's compelling me from those words. It was the with factor. Walk with me, work with me, keep company with me. And so there's so many aspects of where we just try to rely on our own understanding, our own wisdom or the wisdom of somebody else or whatever, and not operating like God as a source and everyone and everything else is a resource and not really leaning in.

00:47:09
 So it's just seeking God's heart and his mind concerning how you flow and whatever that sphere of influence is that you have and how you show up in the marketplace and all of those things. And so that was the beginning of the adventure of seeking God about business in the back of the book. I'm going to read this on the back of the book, because in this one I'm talking about what are the burdens of the grind and what are the gifts of the grace and how do you walk this out really practically and on the gift side, it's like transcendent peace, abundant rest. And I don't mean the rest that you work for. I mean the rest that you work from sustainable rhythms.

00:47:45
 Sustainable rhythms, right. Faithful collaboration, divine favor and kingdom impact. And so it's like unpacking all of these gifts, but also highlighting. But these are the burdens of the grind. And here's how it shows up.

00:47:58
 It's not just about how many hours you're working. Oh, I'm grinding. I'm on team no sleep. That sucks too. But it's not about how many hours you're working.

00:48:06
 It's about the manner in which you work. It does include there is such thing as working too many hours. Right? But that's like grace or Grind 101. What I want people to really grab hold of is that this isn't about hours.

00:48:21
 This is what I see. And maybe you can relate to this. There's a lot of conversations now saying, oh, you know what? We don't have to be about the hustle and the grind. If you just put the right systems and structures in place, then you could work 10 hours a week instead of working your 40 hours a week.

00:48:35
 And you don't have to grind, grind, grind. And I'm like that's interesting and that's good. Systems and structures are a wonderful thing, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about reducing your numbers of hours of work so that you can be effective with those reduced hours. I'm talking about doing business with God.

00:48:53
 So I would rather spend 20 hours a week working with God than 10 hours a week working for the glory of God, but not with the presence of God. So it's not about hours that's powerful. No, you can drop the mic right there. The manner in which you work versus the measure of how much you work. Yes.

00:49:19
 Okay. That's only a component of it, and it's a minor component of it. I mean, it is a component I don't want to disregard. No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

00:49:27
 But it's a minor one. You say minor, but those things are major. The mindset, right. Those little twists you just said, it like when God lets you hear the message version of a scripture that we've all heard a million times, it turned it and it reminded Him that he's teaching us every minute how we can re, not be conformed to this world, but be transformed right, by the renewing. So he renews our mind and renews and say, no, you're looking at this the wrong way.

00:49:53
 Turn it around, cast your net on the other side. So many things of this is just turning your perspective in another way and realizing again that you don't throw out the bay with the bathwater. Like you said, god's not saying not to work, we're not going for our work, but God actually is redeeming work. I think you probably know about Jordan Rayner. I'm a huge friend of mine, huge.

00:50:13
 Friend of Jordan and his whole thing about how Jesus teaches us how to redeem our time. And that entire thing is what I believe us creatives we also struggle with. Because I'm a night owl, I used to think staying up all night was like I got some kind of glory out of the fact that I wasn't sleeping, that I was up inspired. And then I'm like, okay, but I have no energy for my family. God is asking me to change the way I do things because of, like you said, colaboring with Him.

00:50:40
 So that if grace flows throughout my entire life, not just my business, not just my creative life, but my entire life, my whole life. So beautiful. So we could do this for years and just continue to unearth this, but we got to leave them wanting a little more. So I wanted to ask you this one question that I always like to close out with. I always want to take people back to where you were so that if they are the same place that you were, they can also see how God has led you through.

00:51:08
 So what would you say to that Shae, back in? I would guess you would say right before you make no, let's take it back to 2010. Let's take it back there. So what would you say to that young lady as she was getting that go? And you were like, okay, God, do I really need to do this?

00:51:24
 And he's like, yes. So someone else is in that same position. What would you say to that person now if they were in the exact same place that you were back then? Yeah, I mean, I think that understanding that there is this invitation before you from the Father to actually do all things with Him, I had no revelation of that at that time. And so therefore, even the process of trying to walk it out, I'm still thinking I might be having to do that in my own strength.

00:51:55
 So it's just like the burden that you think that you're carrying is actually not the burden that you're supposed to be holding. It really is supposed to be laid at the feet of Jesus. And so you can shift your the other thing I would say is that this concept of hard work I'm going to tell you something Holy Spirit said to me. He said, look up the word hard. I looked it up and the word hard means unyielding difficult to penetrate.

00:52:19
 And he says to me, do you want to define your work as hard? And I'm like, no, because my work is yielded to you and done with you. I need a new word. He says diligence. So we are to work it's careful, steady, energetic, consistent work.

00:52:33
 That's what we have the opportunity and I also believe what we're called to, if we're in the kingdom, to actually work with the presence of God, with diligence, with consistency and faith. And that will yield fruit in your life. It's eternal fruit. It's fruit for now and fruit for eternity. And so I just really want people to embrace the invitation that's before them and not only the invitation but what I also believe that you are called to as a citizen of the Kingdom of God.

00:53:01
 This has been so great. I am absolutely just again my perspective has been shifted. I knew for a second what I heard when you started to say, oh, by the way, we're right next door to each other, I was like so I'm going to try not to bug you and knock on your door and say hey sick, can we talk some more? Can we please drop some more nuggets of wisdom on me so that I continue to walk in creed in kingdom faith. But this has beautiful, please let them know again, I know that they may not hear your voice as often as the host of your podcast, but they can still get in touch with you.

00:53:30
 So please tell them if they're old school they're not going to tap the link. How can they keep up with you? Okay, cool. So first I want you to get Grace over grind like embedded in your life. I want you to go to Graceovergrind.com, I want you to get the book, I want you to read the book and I want you to live the book.

00:53:45
 So that's the first thing. The second thing is that you are alluding to which is the Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur podcast. You can actually go to any of your podcast favorite podcast player and look that up. Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur and our website is kingdomdrivenentpreneur.com so you can connect there as well. But I really want you to start with this foundation of getting this truth in you of what it looks like to do all things, do all this work that you feel called to do creatively with the presence of God and know what's available to you.

00:54:12
 So beautiful. Say this has been a blessing to me, I cannot wait. And we're going to make sure that all these resources are on our recommended page of our website as well so that they can find you and continue to glean and follow the Holy Spirit and also follow what you are sharing with them. God bless you so much my sister. It's been a pleasure having you on the Guiding Gig Show.

00:54:32
 Thanks for having me. So fun.

00:54:38
 My friend. I could not be more inspired by my friend Shae Mines. Now knowing that she's a neighbor is a plus. But most importantly for you that you now have a whole new way to look at your creative career and your entrepreneurial dreams as God has given them to you. You can now look at success in a whole new way as faith plus obedience.

00:55:03
 You can look at divine interruptions as opportunities to take a risk and you can redefine those risks. Now you know that it's not just leaping out of a parachute but you know God is going to give you the desires of your heart as you are obedient and as you take those steps of faith, just like Shae has done. And even when he redirects you once again and changes your role, like he's done in Shae's life, with millions and millions of people who have already been blessed by her materials, but now opening new doors for her, you can see how those pivots can once again be divine interruptions. And you can use this podcast, listen to it again, save it and keep these concepts in the front of your mind. As you follow God, you can follow people like Shae's example.

00:55:52
 I'm so blessed that she was on the show. Make sure you check out her podcast. The links are in the show notes and go get Grace over Grind. As I mentioned, we're going to make sure to put it in the God and Gigs recommended section of our books and resources. Just go to Godandgigs.com and look for the resource tab and you'll be able to find that material there as well.

00:56:13
 Well, my friend, I could not make this podcast any better. I will remind you to stay connected with us so that when we bring you amazing voices and people of wisdom like Shae, you will be there. Subscribe to our podcast on all the different networks or the different apps that you might be using right now, as well as our social media. Because we like to stay connected, especially in our Facebook group, we do use Instagram and I'm trying to push Twitter a little more, get more involved in Twitter. As Twitter has been evolving, I'm starting to find that's another place that we like to hang out.

00:56:48
But our free Facebook group. God and Gigs facebook? Just go to musicians and creatives with Godly confidence. Or just put in God and Gigs group and you'll find that at Facebook. And you can join our community and stay connected with us there, as well as our YouTube page where everywhere you want to be.

00:57:08
 Like Visa used to say, most importantly, we're here to serve you. We're here to help you to get out of those things that are stopping you from achieving those God given dreams for your creative life, wherever they lead you. And we are here to help you to become that creative that God created you to be. Well, my friends, that's our episode for today. So until next time, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next episode.

00:57:35
Thanks for joining us here at the God and Gigs show. Please leave us a review on itunes, like our Facebook page, or visit Godandgigs.com and tell us what you thought of this show. We'll be back soon. In the meantime, go create something amazing.