Allen C. Paul  00:00:00
Have you ever felt like selling your work is really a necessary evil? Have you ever felt like being a creative and creating this business around what you make makes you feel weird or that it's not congruent with your faith? Well, we're going to talk today with my guest, Deb Brown Maher, who's going to explain how you can sell like Jesus, do so ethically, actually build a creative business you can be proud of, and never, ever again feel guilty about charging what you're worth and what your work is worth. Now, if that interests you, you've got to listen to this episode in its entirety. So give me just a moment to welcome our newest listeners and then we'll get right into this powerful discussion.

Speaker B  00:00:43
Artists, musicians and creatives of all kinds looking for help balancing your passion to create with your everyday life? Not sure if your faith can coexist with your profession? Welcome to a place where real artists discuss real life. You're listening to the God and Gig show. Visit God and gigs.com for show notes, links and more information.

Allen C. Paul  00:01:05
Hello and welcome to our show. Thank you so much for making this podcast a part of your creative day. If you are new to this show, you are in the right place at the right time. And let me explain why. It's because as a creative, musician, artist, entrepreneur, freelancer, anyone in the intersection of the arts entertainment space with a Christian or faith focused background, but serving outside the church, perhaps, or maybe even inside the church, but also doing stuff outside, you need a community like this. God and Gigs is here to help you to transform your creative life from the inside out by applying timeless spiritual principles to the temporary creative problems that you might be facing. My name is Allen C. Paul. I'm a musician, creative coach, and author. And we have been here since 2015 helping you to do exactly that, to become the abundant, blessed and competent creative that you were born to be. Well, my friend, I want to jump right into this incredible interview with Deb Brown Maher. She's a sales coach, an artist, and an author who has written the book called Sell Like Jesus seven Characteristics of Christ for Ethical Sales. And she is going to explain, both in her creative life as a painter, as a prophetic artist, and as a sales coach, how these two worlds of creative life and business life should not be separate. How you can actually seek God as you sell and serve people as you sell and create your business in the marketplace, whatever niche or genre or creative skill you use. And I'm telling you, as soon as you heard that title, maybe you thought, there's no way this could be real. This has to be something weird when you say Sell like Jesus, because Jesus didn't sell right? But you're going to hear how this actually works in concert with our faith, how you can become more confident in selling, how to figure out your pricing and stick with your pricing and know when it's time to use a more charitable sense of your work. This is something I'm telling you is going to open your eyes. You're going to want to bookmark and save this episode and rewind it, but I want you to hear it from the woman herself. So let's get right into this incredible episode with sales coach, entrepreneur, and artist Deb Brown Maher. Ladies and gentlemen, it is an absolute pleasure and honor to welcome this author, artist, relationship, catalyst. I mean, she has so many titles, but the most important title she has, honestly, in this case, is Believer. And I am so glad that she is here with us on the Garden Gig Show. Deb brown, maher. Welcome to the guide and Gig show. How are you?

Deb Brown Maher  00:04:09
I'm doing well, thank you, and just so pleased to be here and having the chance to talk to your audience.

Allen C. Paul  00:04:17
It is absolutely an honor. So we have to start with right away the fact that your entire platform connects these two dots that are in the creative life. You're talking to creators, we're talking to our tribe. Right. And the fact that you are sitting right now, if they're listening on a podcast app and they're not watching on YouTube, you are surrounded by art. You're surrounded by these beautiful frames, these beautiful paintings, and next to you is a book that says, Sell like Jesus. So automatically, the visual comparison is like, wait, which one is it? These two worlds combined. So you literally step into this podcast interview representing two sides, what we think are absolutely separate selling, marketing, and the creative and the spiritual side. So I already know you're the right person for this particular podcast. Even your visual presentation shows what it's like. But for those who are meeting you for the first time, can you give them just the 32nd explanation? I know it's hard to do the summary why we do this to everybody, but it's tradition, so that's not Brick tradition. Just tell everybody in a quick summary what you're all about, and then we'll jump into this discussion.

Deb Brown Maher  00:05:29
Yes. So I love that you said the most important title I have is Believer, because that is really first and foremost, so my beliefs drive my actions, and that is the case in the marketplace. And while I'm painting in the marketplace, early in my life, I found I was talented at sales, and when I got a job out of college and realized that I was being asked to pressure people into buying, I could not sustain that job. I could not do it because it's most important to me to help people make good decisions, not force them to do something that isn't really the best thing for them. So early in my career, I knew I had to figure out how to sell in a way that was congruent with my Christian values, and that was fun and profitable, right? So a lot of people think, okay, you can make sales fun, but you're not going to make a lot of money when you do that. Well, that's not why you go into business. We're not trying to make money to make money. We're trying to help people with what we bring to the table. And there are things that we can do with our money to advance the kingdom, to employ others, to give charitably. So money is a means to an end. And even the Lord in Deuteronomy 818 says that he gave us the power to create wealth so that we can advance his kingdom purposes.

Allen C. Paul  00:07:30
Now, I have to stop you because this is kind of like one of those behind the scenes things I'm letting into this podcast. But a young lady you just introduced me to, Janine, that we just spoke with an hour ago, quoted that very same verse of when you say the kingdom is in alignment. Right now we are in alignment because not just you and not just me, but all of us need to realize that that scripture shows that God has no issue with wealth. And the reason why my whole platform is God and gigs is clearly because there's a connection between our spiritual life and the gift he gave us to earn a living, to create wealth through whatever our jobs is. So let me ask you in terms of your original position, you mentioned a job that you had where you started to get feel pressured to sell. But where was the first instance where you started to feel that your art was something to sell? Because most of us creators, we either get into it in church or we get into it in our schools or whatever. But it's because of the love, because I love to create, I love to paint, and we feel like so where was that first line where you thought that art and selling could coexist?

Deb Brown Maher  00:08:45
I had a very young experience with that. I was always making some kind of art project as a kid. And our grade school had a little art fair, and I took some of my stuff, and actually, I remember it clearly. I had taken a piece of cardboard, formed it into the shape of a pig. Then I took pink yarn and I glued the yarn wider and wider circles, and I put it for sale. And I think I put $10 on it. So a man came up and asked if he could buy it. And I went through that, oh, no, that means I won't have it anymore. And he read my hesitation and he said, if you don't want to sell it, it's okay. And I said, no, I have it for sale. And you offered, so I'm going to sell it to you. And that stayed with me. It's that I love my creation but until I'm willing to part with it, it can't bless anyone else. It's like the talents and hiding the talent in the dirt and just giving it back to God and say, okay, here's what you originally gave me. That's not enough. That's not what God calls us to. He calls us to multiply. And the only way we can multiply is to share. And then, okay, should I just give it away? Or do I deserve to be paid for it? And don't argue about that word deserve. I'm saying it because it's a mindset thing, right? Am I worthy to receive money for the creation that I have created? And the answer is yes, and God blesses both. He blesses my willingness to part with my creation, and he blesses me with remuneration for it, which allows me to go and fund my art habits, my art habit.

Allen C. Paul  00:11:10
Yeah, but it's a habit that actually blesses people, right? It's not a self serving habit. You just said it that we are gifted. And I've been saying this for a while now. It's in my Devotional as well, and I just keep coming back to that, that we're called gifted, right? Creators are called gifted. But the gift is not just a package that kind of sits and remains and doesn't bless anybody. Even the idea of giving it away. You mentioned that, giving it away, and a lot of Creators struggle with that, especially in the Christian world. We're talking to fellow believers, right?

Deb Brown Maher  00:11:42
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul  00:11:42
We feel that this idea of selling somehow counteracts the giving or the generosity. But the scripture that came to mind I wish I knew exactly where it is in Proverbs, but literally says that people will curse the one who hoards the grain. The people who don't actually sell it are being they're preventing. Like you said, there's so much more in the economy of God and the economy of the world, which relies on us entering into the marketplace, actually transferring wealth, transferring goods, creating this place where God can be glorified inside the economy. And you're right when we artists and creators hold back on that because we're like, no, God just wants me to give it away. How much, like you said, are we limiting not only our own growth, but God's kingdom? Because we're not willing to see that wealth building and entrepreneurship as actually a blessing. Now, I do want to dig a little more into for the creatives who are right now struggling with that whole sales thing. And your book is called Sell Like Jesus ethical Characteristics Seven Ethical Ways to Sell Like Jesus. I really wonder if you had a struggle with this before, because it sounds like you had this early experience of learning how to sell your art, and then at some point, you became good at creating the art. But was there ever a struggle? In other words, did you ever feel like you that selling was a bad thing? Did you have a struggle when you first had to do that painting and after that point? Or have you always kind of known these principles for yourself?

Deb Brown Maher  00:13:19
Yeah, I'll give you a little bit of history of my art production. I took lessons from the time I was five until age 14. Then I did some painting on my own until college. And then from college, like age 20 to age 40, I i did crafts projects. I didn't paint. I was always doing something. Sometimes it was sewing, sometimes it was crochet, making boxes out of cardboard and material, you name it. If it's artsy making cards, I love to do it. But I didn't get back into painting until the year 2000, when my husband gave me art lessons at the Harrisburg Art Academy in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. So I went for art lessons pretty much every Monday night for ten years, where I studied under a couple of different artists and really learned the value of the process of creation as I was doing that. And that's when I started being faced with selling my artwork. And when I do watercolor, unlike many, I do photorealistic watercolors that take 50, 60, 70 hours to create. How do you put a price tag on that? How do you price 80 hours on a painting? You can't put a price that the market will bear.

Allen C. Paul  00:15:13
Not just for you, but yeah, just the thought process and everything that goes into it. Like you said before, the very first thing that you wanted to sell it's, your baby, is like, how do I decide a monetary value on something that feels like it's priceless?

Deb Brown Maher  00:15:29
Yes. So as I was getting back into art, I was also going deeper in Scripture and really deepening my relationship with the Lord and discovering that he has gifted me with a prophetic seer gifting, which means I see things in the spirit. They're not like clear pictures. They're more like themes or concepts. And then I make them manifest on a canvas as I tune into Holy Spirit, and I literally follow his lead. I joke around sometimes calling it paint by numbers, by Holy Spirit, because he'll say, Use this color, use this brush, use this size, Candace. And I'll get started, and he'll say, okay, do this next, do that next. Go here. Okay, now pull out. Right. So as I was Debeloping my artistic talent, I was also Debeloping my ability to connect with the Lord. And I didn't hesitate to ask Him, what price do I put on this, and when do I give something away? So literally, Allen, every time I create something, well, I have to tell you a little bit of that background, too. I do have a little studio in my home, but the kind of artwork I love, love to do is to take a blank canvas, stand in front of the congregation with my back to the people, and paint during worship. So I never know what I'm about to do because Holy Spirit is going to coordinate through me to portray what's going on in that meeting that he wants people to be touched by. And people get to watch all steps of the creation, and invariably, 1235 people will come up afterwards and say, do you sell those? Nice position to be in. Right?

Allen C. Paul  00:17:57
Yeah, for sure.

Deb Brown Maher  00:17:58
But but then I have the quandary, okay, what do I sell it for? So I always ask the Lord, before I have any inquiries, am I to give it away or am I to sell it? And sometimes I don't know the answer to that until I'm approached. Sometimes I put the price tag on based on what I feel Holy Spirit is telling me. Sometimes he says, Tell the person to seek me and give you what I tell them. And so I explain that to them, and I say, I will accept whatever you and the Lord decide.

Allen C. Paul  00:18:42
Wow, that's such a powerful, like, just the submission of we just talked about the artwork, right? About submitting yourself in an environment, creating I think Matt Tommy calls it co creating with the Holy Spirit. Right. But then the side that I probably am challenged by is submitting the business, submitting the pricing, submitting. Before I put a price on this, I'm going to pray about it, which I again, like as a creator who's done this for years. These books that are behind me, these songs that I've sold, the gigs I've played, I cannot tell you very honestly and transparently that I prayed before I told them the price. I'm like, the price is the price, and this is it, and this is what I need, and this is what my bills say. So tell me, is that one of the things that maybe this is one of the things that perhaps gets in the way for for just entrepreneurs in general, that we think that our faith should not enter this space of, hey, what should I charge? How should I run my business? How should I approach this client? Is that one of the things that maybe is the reason why we struggle to sell?

Deb Brown Maher  00:19:58
I think the reasons are many, and I'd like to state that it isn't one or the other. It's both.

Allen C. Paul  00:20:07
And, yes, I love that your way.

Deb Brown Maher  00:20:10
Works this way that I've just described works. I felt compelled to share that because for artists, especially those that are just getting started at selling their work, sometimes it's easier to offload that decision of what the price should be to the Lord, because he knows what we don't know. He sees everything. And here I'll tell you the other kind of the backward side of that. I was approached once by a young woman who was very touched by the painting that I had done. She was in tears, explaining to me the significance and the symbolism and how God was speaking to her. And it's been the last three months, and this picture put it all together for her. And I distinct my heart, my mercy heart. I'm like, I want to just go, here, take it. It's yours. I'm sold. And I heard the Holy Spirit say, you need to charge her. Look at that. And I'm like, he had my attention. What do you mean? He said, she needs to pay so that it is not seen as a charity case. So I said, what can you afford? She said, $5. I said, I'll take it. So God was teaching her something. In the midst of that, he was teaching me something, because the rest of the story that I don't tell very many people. So here we go. On the Record exclusive is this is a painting that I looked at and judged as elementary. It was simple. It was dots of different colors on a gold background with streamers of gold connecting from the center to each of the dots. And it was symbolic of God connecting each of his people. All of us are completely unique and different, hence the different colors of dots connecting his people through Himself. So I'm connected to him, you're connected to him, and in that, we are connected to one another. So I had, in my mind gone, nobody's going to want this. It's like a kindergartener could have done it. I'm just being really I hear you for sure. Did you ever create something that you didn't particularly gosh?

Allen C. Paul  00:23:07
Right now, my garage is full of things that I discarded. My voice notes are full of things that I've never released because no one's going to want to hear that. No one's going to see that this was a horrible thing. This is not perfect. This is not good enough. I think that would be most of us listening to this podcast right now would say 90% of the stuff we don't share is because we felt like you felt big.

Deb Brown Maher  00:23:31
Lesson big. And I'm glad I got it early on in my art sales career because that showed me it doesn't matter what I think of the paintings I create. When I cocreate with Holy Spirit, sometimes he tells me to use colors I wouldn't naturally put together. He leads me to portray things not the way I'm photorealistic work. Okay, think about that. And now we're going to more abstract.

Allen C. Paul  00:24:09
Less form, two different stylistically, completely different styles.

Deb Brown Maher  00:24:17
So I learned, judge not lest he be judged. So I'm sorry, Lord. I'm sorry. I judged that work as inferior. Clearly it was not. And because it touched her so deeply, that lesson was written on my heart to never look with disdain at something that I've created. I may not want to hang it on my wall, but now what I say is there's someone out there who's going to love this. There's someone out there that this is for. It's just for them. Lord, help me connect with that person.

Allen C. Paul  00:25:03
That this is for what a powerful, powerful example. And something that I think all of us need to hear is that understanding that it's not about our judgment of our own work, especially when it comes to you said, whether we think it's elementary, whether we think it's done in this style, whether our favorite style or our favorite color, our favorite music. And this is honestly let's dig into the marketing part. This is honestly also where it comes down to it's not about our decision on what the customer wants. The customer right is the person that gets to decide the value, whether or not they want it. And so much of this, we have to get our egos out of the way and say, if we want to sell better, sell more, be more productive in the marketplace, we need to stop putting our own cells in the safe place of the customer and let the customer decide.

Deb Brown Maher  00:25:54
Yes, exactly. The customer knows what the piece means to them. And that is a conversation I love to have with people, to ask them, what do you see in this painting? How is God speaking to you through this painting?

Allen C. Paul  00:26:12
So beautiful. And I know one of the things that I noticed in a lot of your writing, a lot of your sharing, and your teachings about selling, like Jesus, you mentioned the word service a lot, switching from the selling to the service. And it sounds like even in this way, the conversation is going right now, we're talking more about putting the other person first. So how do you explain that? Whether you're talking to creators or just entrepreneurs, how do you help people understand the difference between the emphasis on what I get versus the emphasis on what the person that you're serving gets?

Deb Brown Maher  00:26:44
So it's important to frame this by saying that if we make the sale about the product, we've missed the point. It should be about the person. If it's about the product, it's a transaction. If it's about the person, it's relational. So do I care more about you or getting the money for the product? If I will put you first and all my needs will be taken care of. So if I will put you first and demonstrate that to you by asking that's one of my starter questions. I see you looking at that painting. What do you see? How is God speaking to you through that painting? And I will get the most precious, beautiful, sad, difficult stories that allow me to connect with that person. And all the time that I'm connecting with them, I'm listening to Holy Spirit and I'm allowing him to help me minister to that person, to listen when I need to listen, to speak when I need to speak to share what I need to share and to ask a price or to offer them to come up with the price or to give the painting. And that is an in the moment decision that is completely based on Holy Spirit input that's so powerful.

Allen C. Paul  00:28:37
And what immediately came to mind, as you said, that is well, two things, of course, because my mind just runs so fast. One is that that putting people first clearly is what Jesus did. It clearly is an aspect of doing unto others as we would have them do unto you, which people call them golden Rule. No, it's in Matthew.

Deb Brown Maher  00:28:57
In the Bible, Jesus is Matthew 712.

Allen C. Paul  00:29:00
I see Jesus's quote like we call it the Golden Rule as if Jesus didn't come up with that first. And so the idea that selling in that instance and it's funny, I almost want to back up a little bit, but I'm not because otherwise I'll get three different tracks. So the first thing is that this is our attitude as Christians, period. And then because we are Christians in the marketplace, this becomes a people first operation. You just said it's a person over the product or the profit, right? I love that. But then the second part that made it a little bit I would like to kind of like maybe this is a little difficult, but kind of ask you because this is where hits a lot of us in the social media world. In the online world, it is so easy to turn people back into products. Turn it into likes, turn it into followers, turn it into how many sales that I get. How many people? So how do you personally keep people first in a world that is continually commoditizing and making everything all about just who sees me? How many people do I have in my audience and making it so much about this faceless nameless right. Audience versus the kind of thing I think a lot of us, including me, I struggle to keep people in my mind when it just feels like I need to get more people to watch me and more people to buy my stuff. And it takes away from that very important thing that you just put out about making people first.

Deb Brown Maher  00:30:24
Yes, I share the struggle of how to be on social media and how to do you do an online community and how do you stay connected and how do you provide value. And there is no shortage of marketing people, marketing experts who say you got to do this, you got to do that, you got to do the other and this is the way to do it. I have tried multiple different things and what I keep coming back to, Allen, is I have to be true to my God, myself and the people that I care for. Now, if I'm being true to God, then I seek him about how I'm to show up in social media. I went through a year and a half of doing what this, that and the other person said and Allen, none of it worked. It did not help. It did not bring business. It did not advance my community, my online visibility, and the definition of insanity. Keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. So, you know, I did multiple things during that, you know, 18 to 20 months. And I finally got in God's face and said, what am I supposed to do? He said, Listen to me, I'll tell you what to do. And the first thing was stop listening to man. And then we got introspective, him and me, and looked at what do I really love? What am I about? Who is my real audience? I I would rather have 15 Raving fans than 1500 likes. Because those 15 Raving fans are going to spread the word. I can't take care of 1500 likes. I can take care of 15 Raving fans. I can connect, I can be relational. I can spend time with, I can minister too, right? I'm wired for relationship is my core value. That's why you and I connected, because I found you somewhere. Loved what you wrote. I reached out and said we got to talk. That's how I'm wired. So I need to be true to how God made me and let that be how I show up in social media.

Allen C. Paul  00:33:34
Gosh, it's so powerful and so true. And I wanted to piggyback on the 15. You said I was going to go back to twelve because Jesus told twelve, called twelve disciples to change the world. He did not look for the 5000 or 7000. He picked a core group of people. And why us? As entrepreneurs and creators, we get so enamored. Like you just said, the likes, which are, I mean, it could be bots, it could be anything. It could be people that are just like swiping and scrolling and not really invested in you. And yet we put so much investment in reaching those people. Now, I think that the bAllence is of course, is that go back to the very first point that you have to put it out. That you show up for your people and you give, but you don't give in this almost needy kind of well, if they don't like it, if I don't see the response versus saying that one person. And so many of my personally deb, so many of my greatest professional and creative accomplishments came from just that one connection. The one person, the one night leaving the 99 and going to the one talking to that one person. And again, it doesn't just flow from the faith and our love of God. It flows from good business. Pat Flynn and several other entrepreneurs I know who are top CEOs make a point to pick up the phone and call individual customers to find out what they actually want. Exactly like, hey, how can I help you? You're a big CEO of a million dollar company or a Fortune 500 company, but you stay connected. So this is not just. Again, I love the fact that we're not allowing this divorce between art, creativity, and business, just as you've done it's both. And it's exactly how we're supposed to operate in the marketplace, as, like you said, who you are and reaching the people that you're supposed to reach. So I'd love to really make sure I don't let you go without getting this answer. What do you wish more entrepreneurs and creatives understood about selling? Like, Jesus? I know there's several things in your book. I'm sure they're going to go pick up the book. But if there's one thing that you wish they already knew, if you had to pick one, what do you wish that all these entrepreneurs and creatives that you reach, like, already had an understanding.

Deb Brown Maher  00:36:03
Of, that it is not only right, but it's necessary to believe that you are worth the price that you put?

Allen C. Paul  00:36:19
Wow. I did not expect you to do that at the number one. I honestly, you caught me off guard there. That's the number.

Deb Brown Maher  00:36:27
I'll tell you why I say that. Because money is the thing that messes most entrepreneurs up. Wrong attitude towards money. And this isn't just for creatives. This is for anyone. I work with a lot of coaches, too, who are selling their expertise. You know, they are their own intellectual property, and they often struggle with, you know, what do I charge? Is it 75? Is it 100? Is it 200? Is it 500 an hour? I'm talking hourly. Right? And somebody just starting out is often fearful of charging $50 an hour. Will anybody pay that? That fear of of being in perceived as an impostor keeps people in bondage. So my advice, especially to people who are just starting out or who have struggled with pricing and I don't want this to sound contradictory to my ask the Lord price model, because, as I said, both models, it's yes. And so when you have a family, you're making your living through your artwork. You have to charge a certain amount in order to be able to continue to do what you do. Not just survive, but to thrive, because that's what the Lord wants for us. So it's important that you can say, this painting is worth X amount. Let me just say there's one painting on the wall which is not for sale, because it was special between me and the Lord. It's called cherubim. It's like a cross section of the wing of one of the cherubim. So it's got the fire and the gold and the royal purple. And it was a first of its kind from a style perspective. It's my signature style that the Lord did. And I actually cried when I finished because I had no idea how to reproduce it, because I was doing the Follow the Holy Spirit method. And the Lord said, don't worry. I'll teach you. And he did. So let's just say if I were to put a price tag on that, it would be $5,000. For me to part with that, it's $5,000. I have to believe it's worth that. I have to know it's worth that and be okay when the majority of the people walk by and say, oh, I love it, but I can never afford that. To which I say, I do take payments, right?

Allen C. Paul  00:39:31
Yeah, exactly.

Deb Brown Maher  00:39:32
So I have to be okay with the fact that as soon as I put that price tag on it, it rules out 95% of the buyers, maybe.

Allen C. Paul  00:39:42
More, right back to the one person that it is for, right? Like that person is still out there, and the person that can't afford it is literally the person that not only has the money, but it's the one that will actually be blessed by it. And just the fact that I love how this is wrapped all around, again, service and thinking of the one and not and your business being blessed because you have the right framework, because you have the right mentality, that there isn't this dividing line like selling, as you were saying in your vanilla, that selling is an evil. There's actually a blessing to be able to say, hey, this is the price. And not only is it the price, because this will bless me and my family, but this is the price that's best for you, that person that you're going to sell it to. This is the price. I've heard somebody say it in terms of selling. I've heard somebody say this, that nobody buys things that are deliberately more expensive. Everything we buy I don't know the psychology of selling. I don't know if this works right. I hope I say it right. But everything we buy, we buy personally as a discount. We believe we would pay more. But I'm going to pay this because this is what it is, and I really want it, and I would actually pay more, but I'll take it, right? That kind of thing. And so many times in my pricing, I've done the opposite. I've said, oh, I'm afraid. Like you said, I'm afraid they won't pay. So meanwhile, they would have paid. Isn't it the worst feeling when you say, oh, here's the price? And they say, okay. And you're like, Wait a minute. That was way too easy.

Deb Brown Maher  00:41:18
I didn't charge enough. Exactly.

Allen C. Paul  00:41:20
When they don't pause, you're like, oh.

Deb Brown Maher  00:41:23
No, which is the other side of being comfortable, that you've put the price on it that is right for you. And then, just to rephrase what you were saying, value is in the eye of the beholder, just as the example earlier, that young mom who bought the painting for $5, that was priceless to her. It was priceless. So the value is in the eye of the beholder. It was a picture of what God had been speaking to her about. I had no idea. Of course, I had no idea. That was private between her and God. So for her, she would have if she had it, she probably would have given me $1,000 for it because that was the value to her. So we have to be careful not to sell out of our own pockets. I wouldn't pay that much for that, so I certainly can't charge that much for that. That'll get us in trouble, and we can't operate from any position of fear. Jesus is love. Everything Jesus did started with love. Love was out in front. It colored everything that he did and said, even when he said difficult things, it was not difficult just to be difficult. It was because he loved the audience he was speaking to. So if we could say what I've written about in selling Jesus is love based versus fear based selling. And to me, as a coach and a teacher at heart, I wanted to give people specific strategies, specific ways of saying things, because that's that's where I see everything is missing. It's like, conceptually, most people are going to go, oh, yeah, I totally agree with you. But then, oh, how do I do that? What does that sound like? How do I say that? So how do you stand your ground on price, for example? Right? How do you do that without sounding wrong somehow or mean?

Allen C. Paul  00:44:02
Yeah.

Deb Brown Maher  00:44:04
So those are the tactics that are not prevalent in society. They need to be learned, but they're very doable teachable. And at the end of every chapter, I have a summary of key points to remember and things you can put into action, things that you can try to practice, to implement, to get better at being comfortable that you are worth what you charge.

Allen C. Paul  00:44:41
Man, you're freeing people literally with your message right now, as you've probably done for years. And I'm so grateful. Honestly, Deb, I'm going to close with this because we could talk forever, and hopefully I'm going to go ahead and just put a pitch right now talking about selling it without fear, right? I'm going to put a pitch right now that Deb will be in our membership one day doing more of these workshops so that you can connect with her and gotten Dick 360. So again, think about what you are investing in your own career when you buy things like workshops, like horses, that help you to become more confident in being that career that got good to you. So you can go out there and make a living doing what you love, make a living doing what God gifted you to do. And so we're going to make sure that we continue to present her in these different areas. But Deb, before we let you go, one last question. What would you say to that young little girl that was selling that little pothole, that little thing? If you knew what you knew now, what would you tell? Because there's someone else. We all got tastes on this path so that we can go back and help them, which is what you're doing right now. But what would you say to you way back when, knowing what you know now, just to encourage someone else who might be the same place where you used to be?

Deb Brown Maher  00:45:58
That strikes my heart because I would say you're a very courageous little girl. Keep doing what you're doing.

Allen C. Paul  00:46:13
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I felt that. And I know right now that someone again, the freedom we just given them, because this really I mean, I almost feel like I cheapened it by trying to close it off because it is literally the heartbeat of what we do. As creatives as God and gigs as sell like Jesus. It literally is the heartbeat of what we do. And God not allowing us he came to give us life and life more abundantly. Right. The life could be considered whatever you wanted to consider. I won't go biblical right now, but whatever you want to say that Zoe, that life is. But then he added the more abundantly and life would have been enough as a creative life, the gift of painting would have been enough for me. The gift of music would have been enough. The gift of this would have been enough. But he never stops there. He always goes to the more abundantly. And I think that's what you're freeing us to realize that the abundance of life, the abundance of being able to care for yourself, to care for your community, to build wealth for your future generations, all of that. So there's no good way to close this out except to say that God is going to continue to bless Deb Brown Maher and everything she's sharing. So please tell them if they're old school and they're not going to click the link on the show notes, just let them know how to find you.

Deb Brown Maher  00:47:23
Yes. Best way is to either go to my website, which is Debroundsales.com, or send me an email. I'm old school. I don't like all the different other ways. Email.

Allen C. Paul  00:47:37
Is that's another marketing again, this is why we need to have you back in the membership and do some more workshops because we need to teach them about the email marketing thing and why it's the number one thing. And stop looking at all this TikTok and stuff and wondering why you're not making money. That's a whole other conversation.

Deb Brown Maher  00:47:52
Yes. And that's Deb at Deb Brown sales. Simple.

Allen C. Paul  00:47:56
There you go. This has been an absolutely blessed and anointed podcast. I don't use those words very flippantly again, but I felt so much of the spirit throughout this entire interview. I hope that you also listener and watch her. You felt the same. You're going to respond to what Deb shared. You're going to respond to God's leading in this area of selling and entrepreneurship and creativity and realize that you were created for more and you can do more both in the marketplace and in your ministry and as a creative. God bless you. Deb. Can't wait to do this again.

Deb Brown Maher  00:48:28
God bless you. Allen.

Allen C. Paul  00:48:35
My friend, I have to tell you, that was one of the most mind opening and blessed conversations I've ever had when it comes to marketing, entrepreneurship, selling, and creativity. I don't think I know that many people who could connect the dots between those areas with such clarity as Deb just did. I know that you're going to rewind this, save this, share this episode with other creatives in your life, with other entrepreneurs in your life, with other Christians in your life. Basically, people who need to know that selling is not evil, that selling can be serving, that opening yourself up to God's, leading in every aspect of your business, leads to blessing, leads to you gaining wealth, leads to you having an inheritance for your children's children. All the things that God has set aside for us as creators and entrepreneurs and made available to us could be found in the principles that Deb just shared. So please tap the link in the show notes, follow her, find her book, go and register for anything she's sharing. And as I mentioned, and I prophesied really a little bit inside that membership, we are going to make sure we have that present some more things at God and Gigs 360. So if you're interested in joining that membership, check the link and the show notes as well for God and Gigs 360. You can find that at God and gigs. COMGold. But there's really nothing I could add to this conversation that would make it any more powerful than it already has been. So I'm just going to remind you to check out those links and make sure you subscribe and follow this show. Because believe it or not, there are so many more creatives just like Deb who are sharing incredible insight, who are showing you the way to connect the dots between your spiritual life and your creative life so that you can make a living doing what you love and become the creative that God created you to be. The abundant, blessed, and confident creative that he made you to be by following the principles that these incredible people are sharing. And trust me, they are not just talking about it, they are doing it. So make sure you are following this show. If you have not tapped that subscribe button or follow button already, do so as soon as you can on your app or whichever other Debice you're using to listen or follow this podcast. Thank you so much for listening, for watching, for being a part of this. This has blessed me, and I guarantee you it's blessed you. So share it with somebody else who you know could benefit from this incredible interview. Until next time, my friend, may you continue to become the creative that you are created to be. God bless and we'll see you next episode.

Speaker B  00:51:18
Thanks for joining us here at the God and Gigs show. Please leave us a review on itunes, like our Facebook page, or visit God and Gigs.com and tell us what you thought of this show. We'll be back soon. In the meantime, go create something amazing.