March 21, 2025
Build Faster: Web3 Automation & Blockchain Infra with Jin Kwon, Co founder of Saga
What if launching your own Layer 1 blockchain was as fast and seamless as spinning up a cloud server? In this episode of The Index, Jin Kwon, Co-founder of Saga.xyz, shares how Saga is redefining how developers scale in Web3. Rather than relying on rollups or months of coordination, Saga lets you launch your own Layer 1 chain—called a chainlet—in just minutes.
Jin explains how his computer architecture and finance background helped shape Saga’s vision and why automation is key to building scalable blockchain infrastructure. He breaks down how Saga’s validator system works, how pricing is dynamically optimized through competition, and how chainlets come pre-integrated with bridges and liquidity—all with minimal developer effort.
The conversation also explores the future of application-level sharding, using Uniswap as a real-world example of how splitting liquidity across multiple chainlets could unlock massive throughput without compromising user experience.
If you’re a developer looking for faster, cheaper, and more modular ways to build in Web3, this episode is packed with insights into where blockchain infrastructure is headed.
Connect with Jin Kwon and the Saga team:
Saga: https://www.saga.xyz/
Follow on X: https://x.com/sagaxyz__
Follow us:
The Index (https://www.podpage.com/the-index-podcast/)
X Channel (https://x.com/theindexshow)
YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP-VGLfPNwianYhY-oqq5zg)
Show Links
The Index
X Channel
YouTube
Host - Alex Kehaya
Producer - Shawn Nova
Chapters
00:00 - Intro to Saga and Jim Kwan
02:41 - Jim's Background in Engineering and Finance
06:02 - Understanding Saga's Approach to Blockchain Scaling
11:32 - How Saga Automates Chain Deployment
18:14 - Validator Economics and Price Discovery
25:54 - Current State of Saga and Progress Updates
32:13 - Liquidity Integration Layer (LIL) Explained
34:56 - Scaling Applications Through Chain Sharding
39:51 - Future Collaborations and Cross-Ecosystem Potential
Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey everyone, it's Alex Cahaya from the Index Podcast.
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I want to tell you about Mantis, a groundbreaking platform that's simplifying the way we interact across blockchains.
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If you're a developer or just into DeFi, you'll want to pay attention.
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Mantis enables trust-minimized transactions across different chains, letting you trade or execute actions seamlessly while getting the best possible outcome, all without the usual complexities.
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Imagine being able to move assets and settle transactions across blockchains easily, with maximum value extraction, all while staying secure and decentralized.
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That is what Mantis is bringing to the table.
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Mantis is an official sponsor of the Index podcast, and their founder, omar, and I regularly host a new live stream series on X called Everything SVM.
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We have these live streams weekly, and if you want to keep up with what's happening in the Solana ecosystem, especially as it relates to the new innovative deployments of the Solana virtual machine, you should tune into this live stream.
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Check them out at mantisapp and follow them on X at mantis M-A-N-T-I-S At the Index.
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We believe that people are worth knowing and we thank Mantis for enabling us to tell the stories of the people who are building the future of the internet.
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We'll see you on the other side side.
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Welcome to the Index Podcast hosted by Alex Cahaya, and today I'm excited to have Jim Kwan, who is the co-founder of Saga, which gives visionaries the high-end tools and support they need to turn their web3 dreams into reality.
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Saga is and I'm just going to pull this up off of your website here the complete web3 platform made for developers, and I want to learn more about what that means.
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But first tell me a little bit about yourself and kind of how you got into the space and really why you're building what you're working on.
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So I was originally an engineer a long time ago, studied computer science and then did my master's at Berkeley, essentially doing research around like computer architecture and systems design.
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Essentially my work was around like silicon, photonics.
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So it's like when you replace electrical channels with light channels on chain, how do you re-architect how computer architecture looks like?
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Because a lot of design decisions in computers have been optimized for electricity over you know decades and decades of design essentially.
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And so this was like kind of an interesting kind of pivot point where people were like, hey, let's see if we can bring light channels all the way down to on chain and see if you can replace that, and then what kinds of broader architectural decisions can you make to change that?
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So worked on that during my grad school years and then went to Intel and I was doing, you know computer architecture stuff for a little while.
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I worked in engineering for just a little bit and then I quickly realized that I wanted to learn a little bit more about how the world functions in a higher level.
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So what I learned is, as you go deeper into engineering generally, you go deeper and deeper into like a singular vertical and you get you become more of a master of like a singular kind of topic, and I wanted to go broader essentially, and so I shifted into like kind of more of a like a business role within Intel.
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Afterwards I went to business school and then I popped out on the other end as an investment banker.
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So I did technology investment banking for a few years, just kind of learning about how you know giant mergers and acquisitions function in the tech industry and how all this works essentially as human and as financial kind of numbers in the background.
00:04:03.907 --> 00:04:09.596
And I actually discovered blockchains and crypto kind of accidentally.
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So my brother is the founder of Cosmos, so he's Jae Kwon.
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He always had like really interesting crypto startup projects that he did, but usually they were like one or two people or pretty small.
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And then he came to me and was like hey, do you want to come help build Tendermint essentially, which is the company that built Cosmos and a lot of the Tendermint protocol underneath?
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He was like, oh, there's like about 10 to 20 people essentially working on this.
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I was like, oh, this is actually kind of something serious essentially, and so I looked into that and I had no idea what any of this was.
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I was like, okay, well, it seems like it's something serious.
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He's built something kind of real here and so let me fold my career essentially as an investment banker and then I'm going to come help tenement and just as like I want to come and operate a startup.
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Essentially, that was like the motivation behind it and then through that, that was like in 2018.
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I just like learned about this whole world of crypto and blockchains and all of it, and it turns out my background kind of in systems design and architecture, as well as all the financial work that I did, is very relevant for this topic essentially, and so it slots right in.
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Yeah, that's exactly the combo you need, especially if you're going to found a company in the space as a technical lead.
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You know, cto co-founder type person.
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Yep, yep, yeah, so I'm technically not the technical lead, I'm more of the Rebecca.
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The CEO likes to talk and call me the master of coin.
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Essentially, I do everything around economics, everything around incentive design, everything around kind of broader strategy of how we should think about things and so.
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But people like to make blockchain sound like it's more complicated than it is.
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It's really just a database, right, and it's a distributed database that's not controlled by one person, and there has been architectural decisions that have been made over tens of years to optimize and make these things better, and so everything that people talk about today whether it's DA, whether it's like all these little like buzzwords that people talk about it's been discovered and already kind of talked about in the web 2 world.
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It's just now done in a much more decentralized fashion, and so from my perspective, it's like bringing all those kind of knowledges of computer architecture and also bringing kind of the financial side of things from my banking days essentially, and bringing it all in into one cohesive package is like kind of a dream come true in my in my eyes, and so that that's what's really been exciting for me is like how do we like bring all these knowledges from these industries that has gone through this kind of motion before, and how do we make it so that crypto is better, such that we're not just reinventing everything from scratch?
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essentially, well, it's really interesting because I feel like it's rare that teams have someone like you on their team, especially, you know, in your position, with the intersection of experience and skills that you have.
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Because, yeah, blockchains are just databases, but the game theory around how people interact with that and the programs that are running on them is not simple, and being able to identify the attack vectors and even think about that when you're talking about something like token design takes a lot of skill and knowledge.
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Right Like I'm.
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I'm CEO of my company of ABK labs, but I'm not the guy who can tell you what the attack vectors are for something like that.
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I mean, I can talk about them intelligently after my partner in CTO has told me, you know, these are the things that we got to like prepare for and design around and this is how we do an incentive correctly and this is how we create a stick, you know, to ensure performance or something like that.
00:07:35.629 --> 00:07:52.882
And I do find that it's like often people are so focused on the protocol and like the actual tech or they're really focused on like the business and like go to market and they don't consider the token design and how and how it fits into the technology and the go to market Cause.
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It makes a ton of difference the way you do this.
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We have a sub show called everything bagel and it's all about the intersection of open source software, ai and crypto.
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It's specific to like AI and open source and crypto, and we had Greg Osuri, the founder of Akash, on.
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I don't know if you know him, but you must yeah, you must know each other, because we're taking
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a connection Awesome guy.
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So so that was one of my first angel investments in crypto, by the way, was into Akash, and I said this on the show yesterday.
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It was one of the best angel investments I've ever I've ever made.
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I was betting on Greg, and one thing I love about Cosmos is just like the hardcore open source ethos.
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I live and breathe that.
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My partner, brian I was telling you before the show helped start the open source movement back in the day, and it's like a core thing.
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But anyway, another really interesting thing and you've been here for a long time, like in the space, really long time is like the design space has shifted and there's a lot that's known now that wasn't known.
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Like when a cache launched, the things they were doing around incentive design were brand new.
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That was like we're going to we're going to fuck around and find out if this works, and it worked, but it could have not worked right, it could have not worked disastrously, and we've seen other ideas like completely not work.
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So can we talk about that though?
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Like what is the thing you guys are building?
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How does Saga help Web3 developers?
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It sounds like it like you can deploy multiple L1s is kind of what I was reading.
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How does that work?
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And then I'm really interested to dig into the let's like use your example on talk.
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If you can talk about token design and stuff, I'd love to just like dig into your brain a little bit about how you guys got from the idea to like you know what's getting executed and tested out and talk around things you're confident about versus like I don't know, fafel for this idea.
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You know we're going to see what happens.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Well, what you bring up is like really the crux of how I deal with everything as well, because, as much as I would say, hey, I have this intersection of these like knowledges or whatever I don't know everything and the landscape of how things shift.
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There's no way I can know enough to predict everything that's going to happen.
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So what's important in this space, in my opinion, is the experimentation and the pace at which you can kind of try things out and pivot your direction, and so that's always kind of the way that at least the mantra of what I follow, which is let's try something, if it doesn't work, we can scrap it.
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If it does work, great, like we'll keep making it better essentially, and at the end it will feel like we designed this exactly the way it should be from the beginning.
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But it's not.
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It's like it's an organic process that every product designer really goes through right, which is like you just treat the token economics as a product and you iterate, you constantly iterate, you make it better, you improve it, you transition it, and that's the way that at least I operate within Saga ultimately, but I guess we'll talk a little bit more specifically.
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So one of the things that we're trying to do.
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And it's really hard when I describe what Saga is to people because they have all these like pre-existing kind of biases of how scaling kind of functions in this world.
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So today I would say there's two kinds of scaling, predominantly One scaling is kind of what Solana is doing, which is, hey, I'm going to make my one fat pipe as fat as possible.
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Essentially that's like their approach.
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And then there's, like in the world of Ethereum scaling it's like this like quasi horizontal scaling thing that they have with roll ups and like DA and stuff like that.
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But no one really talks about like when I say we're more of a horizontal scaling architecture, everyone just assumes that we're like, oh, you're just doing what Ethereum is doing, which is rollups and L2s and DA and stuff like that, when in reality we are horizontal.
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But we like the fundamental approach of how we think scaling should happen in blockchains is actually very antithetical to the way that Ethereum is doing it, and so I'll just like float that out there and then let me describe kind of what Saga is.
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So Saga is a layer one that launches layer ones, and fundamentally it's like kind of, I would say, what Cosmos was supposed to be.
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But the issue with Cosmos in general is that to launch a layer one using Cosmos technology takes, I would say, somewhere between six to 12 to 18 months of coordination time and effort.
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To bring a chain up, essentially Develop it.
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Bring the chain up, get enough people excited about it so that you have a staking token that people have value for you attract validators.
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It takes about six to 18 months.
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That is not enough time to horizontally scale applications.
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Your turnaround time for how to horizontally scale an application should be minutes, should be seconds.
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This is how AWS works, right.
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Like when you go to AWS and say, hey, I want two cores.
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You run some website and you're like, oh, I need four cores.
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You just go to AWS and be like, hey, I want four cores and it like instantly comes essentially right.
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It's not like as if it says, hey, I want four cores and suddenly Amazon says okay, we're going to need to go and build a data center that has two more cores over there.
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It's going to take you like 18 months.
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We're going to charge you like $800,000.
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Like it doesn't work like that, right, and so fundamentally.
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Those are the security audits, yeah.
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Yeah, and a security audit.
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There's like so many things they don't have enough people to even do it.
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They're like, yeah, pay us a million and we'll look at you.
00:13:04.849 --> 00:13:06.491
Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Because they're so busy Exactly, and this is true all throughout every stack.
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So this is in block production, this is in, like bridges, for example.
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It's the exact same thing.
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You go to like layer zero or somebody and you say, or Axelar, and you say, hey, I want bridges.
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They're like, oh, go into this BD pipeline.
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We'll talk to you in like eight months, essentially.
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And so our perspective is no, this is not efficient.
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We need to automate all of these pieces.
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And so automation and making essentially like a product out of automatically launching these kinds of chains is fundamentally what the beginning of Saga was.
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Let's take the Cosmos stack and simplify it such that somebody can go on a chain and request using a transaction saying I want this kind of chain, and then in the background, everything comes online the bridges, the validators, the nodes, everything.
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And then you just get kind of what you configured in the front end essentially.
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So that's like, in a technical level, what Saga is.
00:14:04.423 --> 00:14:05.076
Yeah, no, I really love this.
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And then you just get kind of what you configured in the front end essentially.
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So that's like in a technical level, what's up.
00:14:07.115 --> 00:14:10.932
Yeah, no, I really love this and it's something you probably didn't know because I haven't really talked about this that much.
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It's a core problem that I actually started working on in June in the Solana ecosystem.
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So I was at the Solana Foundation before and I left because they're to start working on enabling people to build permission environments using Solana as a stack, and what I very quickly realized is that in order to launch a Solana network, you needed really deep expertise.
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It's even worse than Cosmos in some ways because it's not designed for that.
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It's a giant monorepo where Onza knows their way around the main team building and maintaining that.
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But operationally to run it as a network or even a validator for, like, a new person coming in less so much a validator, cause if you have a certain level of skills you can figure that out, but a whole network from Genesis block really difficult.
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You know it takes a really good engineer weeks to just get one up and running and that's like time that most enterprises or like other people, like indie devs or whatever, like trying to make an app chain or something.
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They just don't have that kind of time or resource, and so we ended up building for our customers this thing we call SVM kit, which is not as deep as what you guys have done.
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I can already tell you, basically TLDR, it's like operational tooling.
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We use Pulumi we don't support this yet, but you could like use Terraform or any other kind of code is infrastructure, is code tooling if you wanted to.
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But it automates everything from like going from Genesis block to a full cluster to just like a single node, that voting or non-voting RPC node, whatever you want and like you can launch a whole network in 10 minutes.
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And the only reason it takes 10 minutes is because that's like literally how long it takes for like the infrastructure's code to get through its processes.
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Like the commands are like five commands, and so it is a fundamentally very similar problem.
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And I found the same bottlenecks that you just described, like bridges.
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There's all these, all SVM chains and like how are they going to bridge?
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And oh wait, we have to wait like a couple months for layer zero or wormhole to like support us, like that's not a viable option.
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There are some people and it's actually all come from Cosmos, right, the Mantis team.
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They built an IBC connection for Solana, for like an all SVM or network extension or L2, whatever you want to call it.
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To like Solana to Solana or IBC, to like Cosmos to Solana.
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They built a bridge using IBC.
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What I'm really curious about, though, is how does the validator stuff work for you guys, because that's a piece where I was like man.
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Wouldn't it be amazing if I could just launch a Solana network and all the validators on mainnet were just like validating my network?
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Yep, that's exactly how it works here.
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How does that work from a token design Like?
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Walk me through that.
00:16:46.941 --> 00:16:47.402
Yeah yeah.
00:16:47.402 --> 00:16:49.687
So what you described is exactly how it works.
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We're taking a different approach than most other layer ones.
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So a lot of later ones, especially Solana and Ethereum, even Cosmos they're like let's make the validator set ginormous and make it as big as possible is, when you employ something like what you just mentioned and you want to replicate that for every kind of like sub chain that you launch, you're multiplying every infrastructure cost and effort by 100, 200, 50,000, whatever number of validators you have.
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So, from the very get go, right now in our main net we only have 21 validators.
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We're going to increase that eventually, but we need to get all of the infrastructure pieces ready to automate all this with 21 first, and then we will start opening it up to hundreds, hundreds of thousands or whatever, if you wanted to.
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And so generally, the way it works is the 21 validators that are validating our mainnet are essentially watching the mainnet for these transactions, saying, hey, launch a chainlet.
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The one big problem essentially that ICS and the interchange security which is like kind of similar to what we're doing and Cosmos has is there isn't a defined economic structure that is set to launch an interchange blockchain.
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Essentially, using Cosmos, you have to individually negotiate exactly what the rate is that you're going to pay, and a lot of the time it's like uncertain, it's like it's like in other tokens that you don't know.
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Our model is we universalize this whole thing.
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It works exactly like AWS, where the validators come together and they like kind of set a price.
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Essentially, let's say it's you know, 10 saga tokens per month.
00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:32.143
I don't know what the it's probably a lot more than that, but they all come and agree through an auction amongst the validators saying, hey, I'm going to set the price and universally, this is what the price of the chain.
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That should be per month, essentially.
00:18:33.487 --> 00:18:41.144
And the only thing the user has to do or the developer has to do is acquire that many Saga tokens and put it in an escrow account and say launch.
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And then essentially it launches that chain and the escrow balance reduces over time based on how much, what the rate is essentially on a daily basis.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:51.967
Oh, that's super interesting, yep.
00:18:51.967 --> 00:19:01.647
And then when the escrow runs out, the validator shut down the chain essentially, and then you can add a future time if you wanted to bring that back online by paying for the escrow again.
00:19:01.688 --> 00:19:12.769
Essentially, Does this mean that if I'm a developer and I'm building my own chain I've got some custom features to it right, like different economics things chain, I've got some custom features to it right, like different economics things and I've got my own token my chain could generate fees.
00:19:12.769 --> 00:19:18.929
I could use some of those fees to buy saga tokens, automated right, and pay.
00:19:18.929 --> 00:19:23.000
The validator set yep, yep, that's exactly right, and then, like this is exactly how it should work.
00:19:23.221 --> 00:19:26.217
You figured it out exactly like and also like this is kind of okay.
00:19:26.217 --> 00:19:27.461
This is like if you squint a little bit, this is kind of okay.
00:19:27.461 --> 00:19:28.786
This is like if you squint a little bit.
00:19:28.865 --> 00:20:11.696
This is kind of how Polkadot works, but it's flipped Minus the pair of Jane auctions yeah it's flipped in our model where the validators are bidding, and so the way that our protocol functions essentially is is everyone bids some price, saying hey, I can validate a chainlet for X dollars per month, essentially, and what the protocol does is it goes across all the validators and then selects the cheapest 21, essentially, and then whoever is the most more expensive than that point just kicks everyone else out essentially, and then the way it functions is the price is set to the most expensive person within that 21 set, so everyone who bid gets greater than or equal to the amount that they bid essentially, and so this auction model is not in yet Right now.
00:20:11.696 --> 00:20:13.723
This is like the model that we're building towards.
00:20:13.974 --> 00:20:21.804
It's interesting because there is a Web2 example of this and it's a classic customer validation, market validation tactic of A-B testing pricing.
00:20:21.804 --> 00:20:37.250
The rule of thumb when you're doing that is you're kind of flipping on this idea and said but the rule of thumb is like if I'm selling you a t-shirt and I sell a thousand and I AB test $10 for $15 or $15, if the market picks $10, then I refund to the $15 people.
00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:43.244
If the market picks $15, though, all the $10 people get $15.
00:20:43.244 --> 00:20:44.165
Yep, you know what I mean.
00:20:44.165 --> 00:20:45.208
It's kind of the same thing.
00:20:45.528 --> 00:20:53.653
Yeah, that's exactly right, and so, from our perspective, in the long run, we actually don't think this is going to be the value driver for Saga.
00:20:53.653 --> 00:21:02.163
So what we want to do is create this economic model where validators are constantly pushing down this price as low as possible because they're competing right.
00:21:02.163 --> 00:21:14.876
Essentially, the ideal position we have is there's like 25 people constantly fighting for 21 spots, if you kind of think about it this way, and everyone is just constantly trying to drive like, oh, I think we can essentially offer this a little bit cheaper.
00:21:14.876 --> 00:21:17.482
And let's say, you lost a bid.
00:21:17.482 --> 00:21:23.565
Essentially, you're like, hmm, how come I can't run my infrastructure cheaper, but these guys, these 21 guys, can.
00:21:23.565 --> 00:21:26.377
So you go back in there and you say, hey, how do I make this more efficient?
00:21:26.377 --> 00:21:27.640
Let me fix this a little bit.
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:28.501
Let me fix the costing.
00:21:28.501 --> 00:21:32.229
Oh, I think we can get it down to, you know, a lower than that amount.
00:21:32.229 --> 00:21:47.041
Then you go and bid back in essentially, and this process continues essentially, and it equilibrates to a position until it gets to a point where you choose the 21 cheapest validators in the world, essentially the most efficient operators ultimately.
00:21:47.242 --> 00:21:53.542
And this is the model that we are like pushing towards, which is, how do we make block space as cheap as possible?
00:21:53.542 --> 00:22:03.018
Because most chains out there their economics is such that it's like gas based, which means how do I maximize the amount of money that I can get from users?
00:22:03.018 --> 00:22:04.279
It's like very flipped.
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:07.728
We believe that infrastructure is a commodity item.
00:22:07.728 --> 00:22:13.267
There's no such thing as infrastructure that needs bidding to win and to drive prices up.
00:22:13.267 --> 00:22:15.334
It should be the inverse, ultimately.
00:22:15.334 --> 00:22:31.969
Because hardware is cheap, aws is relatively very cheap in this world, and so why is it that we're paying a hundred times multiple of what the cost of the actual infrastructure is, when you can set that price lower and you can extract value in other directions?
00:22:32.009 --> 00:22:34.941
essentially, ultimately, Well, it depends on the large zone.
00:22:34.941 --> 00:22:47.203
The hard respect too, though, right Like Solana, the hard respect is high, it's expensive and, you know, as the network has grown it's gotten harder, especially for RPC, for Validator less so, but still has gone up.
00:22:47.203 --> 00:22:53.134
But if you're running RPC nodes on Solana it's tough and that's actually a core problem that ABK is working on solving.
00:22:53.134 --> 00:22:59.008
We're building a protocol and a network to drastically reduce the cost of running RPC on Solana.
00:22:59.008 --> 00:23:05.220
One of the other problems that we identified in Solana, that's Solana specific, and I'm just sharing it with you because I think you'll think it's interesting.
00:23:05.821 --> 00:23:07.246
And Cosmos largely solved this.
00:23:07.246 --> 00:23:19.157
And this is where I think like cross-pollination in an open source manner between, like Cosmos validator tech and I forget what you guys call that if it's the Cosmos SDK, technically speaking or what, but anyway Cosmos validator tech and Solana.
00:23:19.157 --> 00:23:34.469
It's a monorepo right With a million lines of code, and as soon as you start launching other chains and making modifications, you diverge from the mainnet Agave repo and it very quickly becomes near impossible to maintain it and keep up.
00:23:34.469 --> 00:23:45.945
So now you become Anza and you lose all the security benefits of, like an open source project very quickly and your upgrade path, like if there's a zero day bug, anza patches it.
00:23:45.945 --> 00:23:48.259
You're fucked because you're not going to be able to patch it.
00:23:48.540 --> 00:23:49.615
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
00:23:49.615 --> 00:23:51.903
There's so much to fix essentially that you've modified.
00:23:52.284 --> 00:23:54.520
Exactly, and this is largely the path that Linux went.
00:23:54.942 --> 00:24:00.827
Okay, we believe that you need a modular client and what we proved you can do is you can strip out.
00:24:00.827 --> 00:24:03.721
There's these things called policies that define how the validator behaves.
00:24:03.721 --> 00:24:41.856
You can strip them out and make them plugins that live on the chain and they load from either your site, your chain, like your fork, or they can load from mainnet, like however you want, and then, once you get that in place, then you can potentially start doing some of the stuff that you're talking about with Saga, where, like a node on a network because it's just running the kernel of Solana can validate multiple chains, potentially as a single node or maybe like a cluster of nodes, but it can like I don't know exactly how the architecture would work out, but that was like that's our vision, like long-term, abk Labs wants to build that as an open source project, not even.
00:24:41.856 --> 00:24:43.763
I mean, I think we can make a lot of money doing it.
00:24:43.763 --> 00:24:48.257
I think there's some token economic structure we could do, but really just because we think it needs to exist.
00:24:48.577 --> 00:24:59.503
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, but it's one of those things where Cosmos started as this modular framework, essentially there's problems with Cosmos too.
00:24:59.503 --> 00:25:11.311
There are modules out there that literally every Cosmos chain uses, because once you try to modify that one thing, you have to modify like 15 modules in the background, and so there's other issues as well.
00:25:11.453 --> 00:25:13.949
Yeah, so it starts to feel not so modular at that point.
00:25:13.974 --> 00:25:17.705
It's not so modular because, like everything has like these interdependencies in the modules essentially.
00:25:17.705 --> 00:25:20.463
But, as I said, it's a good goal to have at least.
00:25:20.463 --> 00:25:41.008
So, like the nice thing, it is really nice building in this Cosmos world because from our perspective it's like whenever we generally think, hey, like there's this like thought of how to improve like certain parts of our stack Somebody has already done it before we have like lots of reference implementations that we can go through and see, hey, is this what we want, is this not what we want?
00:25:41.008 --> 00:25:48.280
And compare and actually pick and choose essentially which implementation is closer to what we want, and then we can also modify ultimately.
00:25:48.280 --> 00:25:52.048
And so that's kind of the nice thing about cosmos is it's so decentralized.
00:25:52.048 --> 00:25:54.880
And this like entire modular framework has existed.
00:25:55.362 --> 00:26:02.067
I think, like with solana, as mentioned, like the, the goal from the very beginning was like one fat pipe, essentially right.
00:26:02.067 --> 00:26:11.144
So it's like, yeah, the fat pipe's awesome, but if you want to make parallel pipes, it's like it gets a little bit more complicated, right I think one of the interesting things I want to point out about Solana though.
00:26:11.335 --> 00:26:14.443
Yes, that was the goal right Blockchain at the speed of light.
00:26:14.443 --> 00:26:16.678
You know NASDAQ, you know on chain right.
00:26:16.678 --> 00:26:20.096
But one of the cool things about Tully is he is an open source maxi right.
00:26:20.096 --> 00:26:33.406
Like he believes in open source, and so his, I think his vision has always been, and he has encourage people to experiment with Solana and do different things, and I think it's exactly that ethos that will lead to an improved, more modular Solana.
00:26:33.406 --> 00:26:34.810
That will improve mainnet.
00:26:34.810 --> 00:26:46.916
It will enable, like, if you go the way of Linux and you have a modular stack, it actually makes it so that, like, you can get more and more granular, and that's what you have to be in order to optimize, to make those pipes bigger.
00:26:46.916 --> 00:26:59.817
You know, ultimately, I think maybe I'm totally wrong, but that's my intuition slash, experience from other people who you know were there when Linux was built- you also want like, more than just Anza, like doing this right.
00:26:59.837 --> 00:27:02.265
You want, like multiple people looking at this at the same time.
00:27:02.535 --> 00:27:06.221
Well, and they are now and that's the cool thing Like it is really cool that that's happening.
00:27:06.221 --> 00:27:11.309
There are many clients now being built, many really interesting talented teams looking at it.
00:27:11.309 --> 00:27:24.701
One thing I'm really excited about this conversation with you is just how we have we have looked at the same problem, just from different ecosystems and probably with some different needs, which it's like cool to talk to somebody who really like dug into that, like I do think it's going to work.
00:27:24.701 --> 00:27:31.968
Like I don't know how far along you guys are in this experiment, but everything you're saying to me it's like you've looked at the problem correctly.
00:27:31.968 --> 00:27:33.936
You thought about it from first principles.
00:27:33.936 --> 00:27:35.561
You designed a system that could work.
00:27:35.561 --> 00:27:37.105
How far along are you now?
00:27:37.105 --> 00:27:38.238
Like where are we today?
00:27:38.238 --> 00:27:39.621
On whatever?
00:27:39.621 --> 00:27:41.707
Today is sometime in February, mid February.
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