Courage Beyond Hate: From Tragic Loss to Inspiring Change | Mindy Corporon

00:00
My son came bounding down the stairs. He was all dressed in his coat and tie and had on his fedora. He was going to sing on the street where you live from My Fair Lady. So he did a warmup. He started warming up his voice and then he sang the bars that he needed to sing for that. And I'm just doing the dishes and you know, I'm not videoing anything. I'm not taking any pictures. I'm just listening to his sweet voice. And then he said, mom.

00:25
they probably will let me sing another song. He said, I'd like to sing it for you. He said, because I know you don't know what it is. He said, I don't think you know what it is. I said, I don't know what it is. So I remember sitting there and I had dishes in my hand at the time and he started to sing, You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone. And I remember having tears and I remember getting choked up. And very shortly after, you know, he was finished and I hugged him and I was like, okay, you're gonna do fantastic. This is gonna be great.

00:53
and he went to go sit down at the computer. My dad knocked on the door and comes in. So we have this interaction with my dad and then Reet said, it's time for you to go, mom. You're going to be late to the lacrosse game. So as I was leaving, I picked up my purse and I walked past him and I paused and I stepped back and I leaned in and I kissed him on the cheek and I said, I love you. Good luck. And he said, I love you too, mom. And

01:24
Those were the last words I heard him say. Today's guest is Mindy Corporon. Mindy's a loving mother, a devoted daughter, a serial entrepreneur, and she's an author. And her life is really a testament to the incredible capacity of the human spirit to really rise from the depths of despair and create an impact because of it. Her story's one of unimaginable tragedy, yet it's also a story of love,

01:51
resilience, and a relentless pursuit of change. In 2014, Mindy's life was tragically changed when she faced the brutal loss of her father and her son to a hate crime. This heartbreaking experience, however, became a catalyst for Mindy's life mission, to overcome hate by promoting kindness through education and understanding. In this episode, Mindy shares her powerful and moving story from the last family dinner she had with her father and son.

02:19
to how she's changing lives through her work with seven days and workplace healing. Her story serves as a strong reminder of the power of healing through grief and the human capacity to find meaning and purpose, even in the face of unbearable loss. As you may have guessed, this episode discusses tough topics, so please take care as you listen to Mindy's story about the life-altering tragedy in her life and how she channeled her grief into action.

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creating a legacy of love and kindness that continues to inspire and uplift others. Before we get into this week's episode, I wanted to shout out Trapper and Shane of Dream Vacations and my friend Brian for sponsoring one episode of the Life Shift each month. Your support means so much and it really allows me to cover the costs of producing the show. Each episode takes about eight to 10 hours of time from the beginning to when it's out into the world and involves the use of about somewhere between five and 10 different tools.

03:16
So all your support is going to good use, so thank you. If you want to learn more about how you can support the show, you can head to thel or you can go to patreon.com forward slash thelifeshiftpodcast. And without further ado, here's my conversation with Mindy Corporon. I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is The Life Shift, candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

03:52
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Mindy. Hello, Mindy. Hi, Matt. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here, and thank you for being so understanding. Everyone that's listening, we had a little tech issue last week where my computer decided to blow up in my face. And so this is our second meeting, but we really only talked for a couple of minutes before, and I was in a panic mode. So thank you for understanding. Absolutely. That's not a problem. Sometimes us humans.

04:20
assume responsibility for things totally out of our control. And that was me in that moment. And I had some time to reflect on that. And I was like, why have I absorbed all that? I still haven't figured that out. But I think it's probably based on a lot of my own personal experiences growing up and the things and how many times I say sorry for things that aren't mine to say sorry for. I don't know if you can relate to any of that. But.

04:47
That was my experience. I think so many of us can. I do, I think so many of us can. And I can, in particular, yes. I'm the middle child. I'm the only daughter and the middle child. So frequently I say, oh, that's middle child syndrome. So yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. Yeah, I think it's a people pleasing thing for me. I think it was always, you know, when my mom died, I felt the responsibility to make sure everyone thought that I was okay. I wasn't ruffling any feathers. I wasn't like,

05:17
making any bad marks. It was always like, I'm okay, I'm going to survive. Don't leave me to everyone. You know, and that was a much a people pleaser thing. And I think it's just followed me up until 42. So yeah, it's probably common though, maybe more so for women. I'm curious, Matt, did you have younger siblings that you felt responsible for? Okay, so it wasn't as if someone said, take care of your younger sister? Or do you think people said to you,

05:47
you know, be a strong, you know, be a strong young man? No? No, it was late 80s. And I think that it was a product of the times. I think that the people around me were not comfortable or prepared to help a child through losing a parent. My parents were divorced. So there was also that change for me. My dad was not quite prepared to be a single father, a solo parent, essentially. And my grandmother, who I was super close with, wasn't ready.

06:16
even till the day she died to talk about my mom dying. And so I think I just assumed that. I thought, you know, people were buying me things, people were taking me to places. So I assumed that they wanted me to be happy. And so I took that on. And I think looking back on it, I didn't wanna be abandoned again. And you know, I felt that my mom dying, she abandoned me.

06:43
that version of my brain at that point in time, that's what it felt like. And so I think that's what I assumed, and I think that's why I came on. Anyway, we went, we're not here to talk about me. We're here to talk about your story. And your story is a really hard one, and I think it's something that hopefully a lot of people cannot relate to, but unfortunately, I think a lot of people can. And maybe not in the exact same way, but something.

07:11
that you've gone through and the way that you've moved through that or with that, I guess I should say, will resonate with someone. So before we get into your backstory and then this event that we're going to be talking about, maybe you can just kind of tell us who you are now and what you do now, just so that we can kind of set that scene and then take us back as far as you need to, to set the scene. Okay. Well, who I am now.

07:36
I'm Mindy Corporon and I am still the middle child. I am still the only daughter of an older brother and a younger brother. My mom is living. My dad is deceased and that's part of my story. I am a boy mom, so I'm still a boy mom and that is part of my story. My youngest son is 21. For any parent who happens to have a teenager or a college-age student in particular, I

08:03
You'll be excited to know I got 32 minutes with him on the phone over lunch, which was very unexpected. One unexpected because I wasn't on a business call at the time or engaged, and two that he called and gave us that much time. So he is a senior at the University of Arkansas and he started interviewing for jobs and he's gotten a couple of offers. So

08:28
We had wanted to talk to him about it. We just weren't quite sure when we were gonna be given the opportunity and that happened today. Unscheduled, got a phone call, we took it. And when we hang up, every time we hang up, I look to see how long I got and I got 32 minutes. So that was a delight. I live in South Florida with my husband. He and I have been married 22 years and we have a dog Lucy and Lucy is going to be, Lucy's 11, no.

08:55
Yes, Lucy is 11 years old and she's an Aussie poo. So that's me in that frame. I've been the president and co-founder, well, I'm a co-founder and been the president of a foundation called Seven Days. And this past summer, I stepped back as president. I've been president nine years. And so I'm still in the board of directors, but I can, you know, when my story, when I talk about my story, people will understand Seven Days. And so.

09:23
There's a new president and a vice president in place, which I'm super excited about, and they're thrilled about, so that will be great. I want the vision and the mission of Seven Days to carry on beyond me. And I felt like as a leader, that was my responsibility to go ahead and give leadership over to someone else and to the board. The mission of Seven Days is to overcome hate by promoting kindness through education and understanding. So that's...

09:52
That's what seven days is. I'm also a serial entrepreneur. I'm in the middle of working on a startup that is a B2B SaaS platform, but it's also human interaction. So it's human interaction plus innovative technology. And the company is called Workplace Healing. So that's me in however long that took to tell you who I am. I mean, a serial entrepreneur, I was actually just talking to someone earlier today where I was like, I have...

10:22
zero desire to be an entrepreneur. And it's like, I just want to work for people and work within whatever those bounds are and learn from them and those kinds of things. And it's funny because so many people are like, you should start this. And I was like, no, I don't want to. So when I hear someone that is a serial entrepreneur and someone that just consistently has these new ideas and wants to like see them through to fruition, I'm just like, go you. Like I can't even imagine that. And I had the opportunity to speak with

10:51
your co-founder? Co-founder and business partner of Workplace Healing. Yes, you spoke with Lisa Cooper. I sure did. You know, we had a conversation about her own experience. So I got a little bit of understanding of what you do and how she brought her background into what you guys do. And she hinted at how you two met and how your paths crossed and this not so much a coincidence but probably the perfect timing of the way things cross together. And then

11:20
workplace healing came from that. So that was a lovely conversation that came out in October of 2023. So by the time that this episode comes out, it's already been out in October. So thank you guys for both being here and being a part of this. We're happy to do so. Like I said before, there's a part of everyone's story that I think we can resonate with, even if the experience is not exactly the same.

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and you never know what piece is gonna hit you at the right moment. It's almost like picking up a book that you've read before and then that third time you read it, you're like, oh, everything has fallen into place. And so I'm just so lucky. Matt, speaking of books, I'm an author, so I forget that. Do you have 24 hours in a day or is this like more in your world?

12:04
I, yes, somehow I have more hours than everybody else. No, I just, I used many of them. I don't sleep much. I authored a book, it's called Healing a Shattered Soul. We published it in May of 2021. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Are you gonna write another one? Yes, but after- I figured the answer was yes. Yes, and I already know the name of it, and I kind of have it in my head a little bit as well, but I-

12:32
I know better than to start it because I'm really focused on workplace healing. So, but yes, I do intend on writing another book. Yes, you can feel the energy and the excitement that you have for or the passion, I guess, is maybe a better word for creating these changes through the products that you that you create. And I'm assuming that a lot of that has stemmed from your experience.

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and what we're gonna talk about today. So maybe you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this moment, and then you can kind of share the moment and we'll go from there. Absolutely, absolutely. If everyone would just pause a moment and maybe close your eyes and consider where you were in 2014. So from the time you and I are talking, that was nine years ago, it was April of 2014. And at that time, I was the co-founder.

13:25
So I was one of my entrepreneurial plans co-founder and I was the CEO of a wealth management firm. I had gone into wealth management years before that. And then my business partner at the time, he and I created a registered investment advisory firm. And we had 13 people employed and I was the CEO of that company. So I was, you know, in the middle of a career and very much enjoying it. Really enjoying taking care of our clients and employees. And

13:55
empowering our employees to know more than I did and have better certifications than I had. And I love that. I really loved working there and I loved our clients. So I was married to the man I'm married to now. So we've been married 22 years, as I said. So I was married to Len Losen and I had two boys. And my boys were our REAT, R-E-A-T, Underwood was his name and he was my oldest. And then Lucas.

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who I mentioned was 12 at the time. He's now 21. So it was April, I'll give you the day before because when I speak about what happened, I do like to frame the picture of who we were at that time. And so on April 12th, we were a family of four and we were sitting around the kitchen table. It was a big round kind of butcher block table with my parents, my mom and my dad. Lynn and I had been on an anniversary trip.

14:53
And so we'd been out of the country about four nights, about the week ahead of that. And I mentioned that because this was a catch-up dinner. So this dinner, we had my mom and dad over and we were catching up on what we had missed. And my parents were explaining and the boys were explaining everything that they did, why we'd been gone. So this was a really important family dinner. It could have been just a normal dinner on a Saturday night. But...

15:18
It was pretty meaningful. And I think it was even more meaningful because it was the last family dinner that we were able to have in that manner. My son, Reed, who was 14 at the time, was a performer. He was a singer and dancer. He was taking dance classes and had been taking voice lessons for several years. And he was a performer. He became a performer at the age of two. As soon as he could start talking, he started performing Eric Carle books and he could just recite them verbatim.

15:48
where we were sitting right now, April 12th of 2014, it was the day ahead of a tryout. So he had already made two auditions and been accepted. So he'd been accepted into something called Starlight Stars, which is in Kansas City. We lived in Kansas City at the time, in Overland Park, Kansas to be specific. And he had already been admitted to Starlight Stars. He was one of 24.

16:16
and they were singers and dancers, and they were going to perform all year long. In May was going to be their first practice, and they were gonna learn a routine and a whole routine they put together with 12 and 12, and then they would perform throughout the Kansas City area at a variety of locations. So it was a great opportunity for him. He had tried out for Tom Sawyer at another theater, a local theater, and he had made the cast. So again, we had just received.

16:44
notifications within the last five days that he was going to be in Tom Sawyer, which was going to be a summer program, and he was going to be in Starlight Stars, which was going to last 12 months. I mean, his future was just bright. He loved debate. He'd been into, he was in debate in school and had, was really excelling in debate as well. Super smart, you know, great young man. And he was working on his Eagle Scout. So he was a live scout at the time and working on his Eagle project during this, this April.

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So this is April 12th and we have a dinner. And during the dinner, we come to the conclusion that I can't take him to the tryout that is tomorrow. So we has one more tryout and it's for KC Superstar. It's a little bit like an American Idol. It's a fundraiser. It's held by the Jewish Community Center and it's a fundraiser for them. It'd been going on for years. So we had a tryout for them and audition the next day.

17:41
which also happened to be Palm Sunday. And I mentioned Palm Sunday because I'm of Christian faith and our family was talking about, well, tomorrow's Palm Sunday and Reet has an audition and Lucas, our younger son, has a lacrosse game. And of course, Matt, they were at exactly the same time. Naturally, yeah. They're exactly the same time. So you have to divide and conquer in your family. And so I was going to take Reet to his audition.

18:06
but I had missed several lacrosse games of Lucas's and Lucas wanted me at his lacrosse game and Reet said to me, "'Mom, I think you need to go to Lucas's lacrosse game.'" He said, "'I think that's fine, go to Lucas's lacrosse game.'" Ye Ye, who's my mom, his grandma, would take him to the competition. Well then Matt, Ye Ye couldn't take him. So my mom had plans and she couldn't take him. And so my dad drove Reet to the audition.

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And then now we're on April 13th. That's the morning of, it's Palm Sunday. We're doing normal things, getting ready in the house, but Lucas and Lynn, my husband, leave for his lacrosse game. And I'm waiting on my dad to arrive to pick Reid up and take him to his audition. And I think it's really poignant to explain what happened in the kitchen before my dad arrived. My son came bounding down the stairs. He was all dressed in his coat and tie and had on his fedora.

18:59
He was going to sing On the Street Where You Live from My Fair Lady. So he did a warmup, he started warming up his voice and then he sang the bars that he needed to sing for that. And I'm just doing the dishes and you know, I'm not videoing anything, I'm not taking any pictures, I'm just listening to his sweet voice. And then he said, mom, they probably will let me sing another song. He said, I'd like to sing it for you. He said, because I know you don't know what it is. He said, I don't think you know what it is. I said, I don't know what it is. So.

19:28
I remember sitting there and I had dishes in my hand at the time and he started to sing, "'You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone' and he sang the bars, the melody to, "'You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone' and I remember having tears and I remember getting choked up and very shortly after, you know, he was finished and I hugged him and I was like, okay, you're gonna do fantastic. This is gonna be great and he went to go sit down at the computer. My dad knocked on the door and comes in so...

19:57
We had this interaction with my dad, and then Reed said, it's time for you to go, mom. You're gonna be late to the lacrosse game. So as I was leaving, I picked up my purse and I walked past him and I paused and I stepped back and I leaned in and I kissed him on the cheek. And I said, I love you, good luck. And he said, I love you too, mom. And those were the last words I heard him say.

20:27
And my dad gave me a hug before I talked to Reit. So I got a hug from my dad and I heard from my son that he loved me. And I drove to the lacrosse game. And for really unknown but unknown reason, the lacrosse game was canceled. It was a, there was a thunderstorm five miles away and they canceled the lacrosse game. And I drove to the Jewish Community Center where my dad was pulling in to take Reit to the audition.

20:57
And I got there probably about maybe six minutes after they got there, really close. And Matt, they had been murdered in the parking lot. And it was a hate crime. A man who had planned to and premeditated trying to murder people of the Jewish faith had driven in and out of the parking lot, evidently several times that day, looking for people to murder.

21:26
And when my dad pulled in, in the truck, he and Reed, there were two people in the front seat, and the shooter followed them back to where they parked. And my dad parked the car, parked the truck. He evidently got out of the truck and was getting in the back. He had opened the back door. And at that time, the murderer was right in front of him with a gun. And he murdered my dad on contact. And then he turned the gun.

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and murdered Reet, he shot him through the windshield. Now, all of this had taken place before I arrived, but literally only minutes before I arrived because the police later asked me if I had seen this white car with this man leaving. And I couldn't tell you even now, if I did, I couldn't tell them then. I didn't know if I'd seen anyone that had caused me, you know, any...

22:24
cause for concern. But evidently, after he murdered my dad and shot Reed, who did not die instantly, he shot up the building and shot at other people. So that day, between the Jewish Community Center and then Village Shalom, he went to another location, shot at more people, and he murdered one more woman. So Terri Lamano, Teresa Lamano, also lost her life that day. I believe he shot at 14.

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people that weren't injured and 17 total and he murdered three. So I found them in the parking lot. I was the third person on the scene. There were two men who were already caring for reet when I found him and really fascinating and interesting thing happened to me. Obviously I was completely shocked. I drove in and I saw my dad's body. I hit the pedal faster than I.

23:24
to a screeching halt. I remember grabbing my keys and running to my dad's body and screaming, what happened? What happened? And no one was there. There were no people. I didn't see any people. I didn't know where Reit was. I didn't see him. I just saw the truck with the doors open in my dad's body lying there motionless. And I got close enough to see that he was deceased and I wanted to help him, but I also logically knew that I could not help him.

23:54
based on what I was seeing. And I felt a pressure on my shoulders. My aunt has since said to me that it was a guardian angel, but I felt this pressure on my shoulders push me back. As I was leaning forward, I felt push back. And I heard the words, your father's in heaven, go find Reet. And I paused, I looked to the left, I looked to the right, I saw no people.

24:20
But I walked around the truck, and this is where I found two men who had Riet in their arms. So Riet lost his life within about 30 minutes. He never regained consciousness. You know, I've been told by several of the EMTs who were with him and the firefighter who was in the ambulance with him that he never regained consciousness and he lost his heartbeat in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. So we found out as a family,

24:49
when we all gathered together and drove to the hospital, that not only had we lost my dad, that we had lost my son on the same day. So we lost so much, so much of our family. I lost really my people. So that has been extremely defining on where I focus my entrepreneurial efforts, where I focus my passion, and where I focus really, you know, all of my time.

25:19
exist in the world, I'm sure is drastically changed because, I mean, it's one thing to experience that the murder of people in your family and from like, and just find out about it. But in your case, you had to be there. I mean, I guess there's some part of you that maybe there was, you were glad to be there in some capacity, but...

25:47
that just adds a whole other layer because you've seen these things, you've experienced these things. I don't have words to say to you in how I, how sorry or how sad I am for you because that experience is like something that no one should ever understand. No one should ever like be able to empathize with that because it's such a tragic, unnecessary.

26:17
loss of life. And I just am so sorry that you had to experience that one, but also be there and be a part of witnessing your father and then seeing your son. And I'm sure there's all sorts of things going through your head of like being a fixer and wanting to cure things. And that motherly instinct, I'm sure, tried to kick in as well. So I first just want to say I'm so sorry for your experience. Thank you. Thank you.

26:45
I probably did immediately feel that it was so interesting and odd at the time that I would be the one that was there. So I was the last family member to see them in the house. And then within maybe 32 minutes, I found them both shot. That's how close the time was. I didn't, one thing I want to point out to your listeners, because I would assume that any parent is wondering right now, was I in the ambulance with Reet when they took him.

27:15
And I wasn't, and it took me two and a half months to reconcile that. And I needed to speak to the EMT who was with him in the ambulance. So what happened was I was taken from the scene of the crime and really placed inside the building. So clearly I was in shock. I mean, I was in shock and trying to grasp what I was seeing. And a storm was now the storm that had canceled the lacrosse game was now kind of coming upon the JCC.

27:44
And there's a live shooter. They think there's a live shooter in the area. So they're trying to protect me. They're trying to protect themselves. They're trying to care for this boy. They know that my dad's life has been taken. So I was moved inside the building and while I was in the building, the ambulance came and took Reed to the hospital and I wasn't notified. And it was extremely difficult to process that until I spoke to.

28:10
the EMT, Dan Stringfield is his name. And in my book, I write a chapter about him. So in my book, I write about the entire day. And the way I pull the day through the book is by chapter of how each of us experience that day differently. And so one of the chapters is about Dan. And what I learned from Dan is that I was really in the right place where I needed to be. I was where I needed to be. If I had not...

28:36
stayed at the JCC, my mom would have had no one to talk to. She would have had no one to cover my dad up. I didn't personally cover him up, but I got him covered up so that she didn't see him. You know, my husband would have gotten there with Lucas and they wouldn't have had me. They would have been fearful. They all would have not had, I'm kind of the glue. They wouldn't have had the glue. And I was the glue. And so I've reconciled that. So for all of your listeners who...

29:04
rightly so, are horrified by the event because it was horrific and it was tragic that I wasn't in the ambulance. I've processed that and I understand that many, many times we are where we need to be and we need to understand that and process it. Yeah, I would not have even thought of the fact that you weren't in there and or attached any kind of feelings towards that because I think in that kind of experience, everything's...

29:33
sensitive. Everything has to be done with the swiftness and protecting you, protecting the scene, protecting or trying to protect your son in a way, you know, or help him in a way. I wouldn't have done that, but I'm glad to hear that you have kind of resolved that feeling. You mentioned when you were with your father, you felt like that pressure and you heard some words.

30:01
said to you, was this something new to you? Or I know you said you're of the Christian faith and is this something like where you've always kind of heard things like that or felt things? Or was this just like totally unique and kind of telling of that moment? That's a great question. I don't know if anyone's ever asked me that question. So I had to think back when I was 13 years old and I wrote about this in my book, because I thought about it. When have I felt this before? When I was 13 years old.

30:30
I had a spiritual experience that I did not understand at the time as a 13-year-old. But now as a grown woman, looking back, I'm like, oh, this happened when I was 13. And I didn't comprehend it at the time. And then it happened one other time when a friend of mine was killed in a car wreck and I was 15, 15 or 16 years old. But other than that, I had not.

30:54
nurtured any spirituality to say. I mean, I went to church and we took our children to church. But I tell people, especially when I speak to congregations or church groups, which I did a lot of like the second and third year after this, that I don't do well memorizing Bible verses. I wasn't ever in a small group, like a Bible study group. I know Bible stories because I was raised in that. But this

31:22
The spirituality that came to me, I mean, it's almost as if the heavens opened and I literally heard the words, "'Your Father's in Heaven, Go Find Reed.'" Now I did hear that again in the hospital and I probably heard it one more time and I can't remember when it was, but then that was it. And then I just felt very led by my heart. First of all, if you go back to when you're an eight-year-old boy and can remember feelings,

31:52
you probably felt like someone had filleted you open and your heart was just out there for everyone and it was in so much pain. And that's how I felt. I felt as if someone had filleted my body and my heart was sitting on top of my chest. And while people couldn't visually see it, I just felt literally shattered. That's how I felt. And you probably, I mean, did you feel like everyone was looking at you to see how you were and then...

32:20
Did you feel a responsibility that you had to be a certain way or perform in play the, you know, do I have to play a particular role for these people or did you feel truly authentic to yourself and did whatever came next? Because I can feel one way or the other. Yeah, I felt very authentic and I went against what so many people thought I would do or should do. I had people say to me, which is normal.

32:49
You might want to release a statement that says your family wants to grieve in privacy." And I said, I'm not supposed to grieve privately. And they said, why not? And I said, well, it was a hate crime. And people are going to wonder, why did he murder them? He could have murdered anyone, but why them? Well, they were there at the wrong time. But because he murdered them, I was the person to take a lot of action. So that evening, Matt, I went to a vigil.

33:19
I had heard, and we were in my mom's house and people were gathering, just so many people were coming to my mom's house, and I heard someone say, there's going to be a student vigil. Well, I just said a few minutes ago that a friend was killed in a car accident when I was a teenager, I think I was 16, and it was devastating, just so devastating to lose him at a young age. When you were eight, you know you're at a young age and you can't process things.

33:47
So I lost my friend Kyle, and now I'm a mom of a 14 year old who's murdered. And he had friends and teachers, and he had friends and boy scouts and debate and theaters and all these groups. And I felt a responsibility, but I felt authentic about it, that I wanted them to know that dad and re weren't specific targets and that-

34:16
There wasn't a shooter out there getting everybody and that Dad and Reit were living life. My dad was doing exactly what he wanted to do. He wanted to be with his grandchildren. He was driving him somewhere. Reit was going to an audition. Should their lives have been taken? Absolutely not. It was a hate crime. The man was captured. He was convicted. He died of natural causes in prison. So he's not even a point right now.

34:46
I wanted those students to know that this was horrible, but that they had permission to live their lives. Because I think I was really derailed at 16 when Kyle died, and I struggled to live my life. I struggled to have joy because Kyle couldn't have joy. And I didn't want to reach friends to struggle the way I did. So I did speak out. Like a guilt? Like that?

35:15
you're having a good time and Kyle was not? Yes, I would. Yes, I had that trouble when I was 16. I had significant trouble believing in God. So I averted myself from Christianity and youth group and really didn't believe and I didn't understand how this could happen. And so that was part of a faith process for me. I don't believe that God is a puppet, right? So I can say I probably should

35:45
I do have faith in energy. I have faith that there are higher beings. I have faith that Dad and Reed are in a very safe place. And I get messages from them. So I get yellow butterflies and I get songs and people say things to me and certain food will show up at the right time or a sign will show up. So I believe in all of that. And I believe in Jesus. But I don't believe that God plans everything. I don't believe that.

36:14
again, that God's this puppeteer and that he knows everything that's going to happen no matter what we do because we have free will. And this man, this shooter had free will and he used it. So I did have really big concerns that these students, all of a sudden I was 16 year old Mindy and thinking, how can I help his friends? And so I went to this vigil and it was extremely public. I had no idea. And I have to tell you, Matt, because I was there in the parking lot and at the center,

36:43
I had no idea that this was international news. I didn't understand how big it was. To me, it was this. It was so small in my family, and I couldn't believe that it had exploded all over us. But it was international news. And so I went to the vigil, and I was sitting, I laugh about it now, I was sitting at the vigil and people were talking and I was feeling nothing. I was like, they are not scratching the surface.

37:10
These people do not know what to say. They're trying, but they don't know what to say. And so I asked the, actually my girlfriend with me, Tara, I said, I'm supposed to speak. And she said, what? And I said, I'm supposed to speak. She goes, what are you supposed to say? I said, I don't know. I said, but I'm supposed to talk to these people. So she got up and she asked the priest if I could get up and talk. And he came and sat in front of me. And there's a chapter about this in the book. And he...

37:37
comes to me and it's an interesting exchange and he's not sure if he should trust me because he doesn't really know and he's got all these people and TV crews and then there I am saying I'm supposed to speak and so he let me speak and I just said to everyone they were living life, they were living life and I want everyone to live life. And I really meant it and I still mean it but I wanna be clear with your listeners, it's hard. Yeah, no. It's hard, it's hard work.

38:06
But I was really hoping, and I think I did, give people permission to grieve and permission to go ahead and find their joy in life. Do you look at that moment as kind of, I mean, it was so soon, but do you look at that as your own permission to start your grief journey as well? Because I think that's really hard for a lot of people, whether it's a super tragic experience like you went through or an accident like I went through or.

38:36
someone losing someone from old age or whatever that may be. People are very, they have a hard time with grief. Do you feel that that was your, did you give yourself permission to start grieving at that point? Or was there a longer period in which it took? Yeah, I didn't give myself permission at that time. So as much as I portrayed for everyone else. That it was okay for them? Yeah, and I don't wanna say I didn't, I believed with all of my heart what I said.

39:06
Right. But the pain that showed up was so unbearable. I had never felt pain like that before and had no idea, no idea how debilitating that would be. And so it was an ebb and flow. It's an ebb and flow. And then I would tell you, because I know...

39:26
Six months after that, we had a trip planned to Nashville for just a weekend and I did not wanna go. And my husband said, we need to get out of the house. Lucas, it's gonna be take care of. Let's go two nights. We're gonna drive. Let's just go to Nashville. And we went and we were listening to music and just sitting there listening, not really feeling much yet, not really feeling anything. I'm an eighties girl. So Journey is one of my favorite bands, right? And Don't Stop Believing.

39:55
was like a family song for us. And I can, when the song comes on, I'm in our Tahoe and Reed is in the backseat and his friend Jake and the windows are down and the music is loud and they're screaming and yelling, don't stop believing and they were singing the song. And so I'm in Nashville and the song comes on. And I feel something that is remotely associated with joy.

40:24
And I thought, wait a minute, I shouldn't feel joy. I'm not allowed. And I felt it, and then I cried. And then I was like, okay, okay, you can feel it. No, I don't wanna feel it. But that was the very first point at which I felt that joy, it was going to come back. But it was scary, you didn't wanna- Oh, it's horrible.

40:47
Well, yeah, and it's like, do I do I deserve to have this? Am I allowed to have this? I think, you know, even to your point of people coming up to you at that vigil and like saying all the wrong things, because honestly, is there a right thing to say? Like, there's there's really nothing that works in that moment. It it feels like I think there's so much I think we assume like so much shame when we like we've.

41:14
Why am I happy? Like, I'm not supposed to smile right now, or why did I laugh at that thing? And I'm not sure why we do that. I think we have this picture of what a grieving person must do and act like. And it sounds like you kind of have that little battle at that moment. You know, and I had it internally probably more than what I thought people thought I should look like. Because when I talk about my dad and Reed, I smile. We would be interviewed. And I would say,

41:43
let's talk about Reed. And they're like, okay, you know, but I love talking about him. It keeps him alive. And so when I get excited and talk about my dad and Reed, I do talk about them as if they're living because I feel them all the time. I feel them and I get, yeah, and I feel them. And so that's encouraging to me. But right when I felt that joy, I think it was definitely life is not fair. And my dad can't feel joy and Reed can't feel joy. So I should not.

42:14
feel joy. And it was an ebb and flow of, okay, Mindy, what would you say to someone else who said that to you? Right? And I would say to Matt, I would say to you, Matt, your mom would want you to find joy. Right? Your mom would want you to find joy. And someone would say to me, Mindy, your dad and Reed would want you to find joy. So I'm trying to tell myself that. And my heart is just bursting. And I'm like, do I want to listen to the song? Do I want to be happy? And it's just back and forth.

42:43
I found it and I can hold happy and sad at the same time. And I know that. As we should be able to. Yeah. But it's a process when you've had a level of grief that you are struggling with and knowing when will I get through the darkness because I'm sitting in the darkness. Because the darkness is also healthy to an extent to feel a grief. So you're right, my tragedy is enormous and hopefully your listeners have not experienced it, but there unfortunately have been.

43:12
a lot of shootings and a lot of violence in our area, in our country, in the world. And someone really could have had that experience and they might be feeling guilty to move on because someone that they love is not able to move on. And I would say, eat the food that your loved one ate. Drink the drink that they ate. Go do the dance that you wish that they could do. Find things that are joyful to you because it will help you still remember them. You can remember them. And I...

43:41
I do that, I eat more strawberry rhubarb pie than I should, and I drink more sweet tea than I should, and my dad loves sauerkraut and brats, and I love, it's October, I love in the fall to be able to eat sauerkraut and brats. So you can see that those things bring me joy, and I have learned over the years that that's important, and that helps me be healthy, and I try to portray that to others and give them the idea that hope is available.

44:10
wallowing in your grief is not healthy, but processing it and feeling the anger, feeling the sadness, et cetera, and what is good. What I did is I wrote about it. Other people might kickbox through it or they might ride a horse through it or they might swim through it, but feeling the grief is normal and then finding joy, you have permission to do that at whatever point you start to feel it.

44:35
Yeah, I think that's important too. A timeline is not a realistic thing to give anyone because I think we all have to take our own. You know, my own experience, I think it's, I mean, obviously it's not as tragic an experience. And that's weird to say, but you know, when my mom died, I was eight. I didn't understand anything, right? I think when you, at your age, losing a child and a parent, you understand a lot.

45:04
You understand that hate, you understand what death means, you understand all these pieces. So I venture to say, even if it wasn't this murder, it's much harder for an adult to process something like that, I think, I think, from my own experience. Well, I don't know that I would use the word harder because as an eight-year-old, you didn't have the tools. Correct. And your entire life, you've been processing it. Oh, yeah. Right, right? Yeah.

45:31
And that's okay. I mean, I'm still, I'm a griever. I say to people, I'm a lifelong griever. Yeah, well, frankly so. I'm a lifelong griever. Right, and I process it at different times, and I do allow myself time to journal and cry and be angry and frustrated, and then I allow it, I write about it, that's how I process it through. I write about it, and sometimes I'll burn it, sometimes I'll write it, and then I'll burn a piece of paper.

46:00
or I'll go for a really massive walk or exercise, but I'll process it and then I'll say, okay, what am I gonna do about it? What can I do? And that's what fuels me to open seven days, the foundation, that's what fueled me to write a book about healing, that's what fueled me to create workplace healing because I channel that anger, I know I have it, and I think to myself, what would dad and Reed want me to do with this? And I...

46:29
And that's what I've done. I've worked a chain on it, which is what you're doing with the podcast. It took me a long time. And you know what? My grief journey is so interesting looking back on it for me. It took me about 20 years to what I say kind of fully grieve my mother, because by the time I got to where the curtains parted and I understood the grief and I forgave myself for all the things that I did because of that.

46:54
I didn't remember my mother anymore. And so it's easier to kind of close that door a little bit because the person doesn't quite exist anymore. This sounds terrible to say, but I think you understand what I'm saying. No, I understand. But that struggle that I had gave me so many tools and it gave me this relationship with my grandmother that was like nothing else. I cannot describe this to other people. And...

47:23
eight or nine years ago, she was diagnosed with cancer. And so at that moment, I knew this is my most favorite person in the world. And I know how terribly I did losing the first time. I didn't get to say goodbye. I didn't get to do any of those things. I'm going to do it right this time. And so my grief journey with my grandmother, I was able to have that final conversation with her. We said all the things that.

47:49
that you would normally think about at the eulogy. I wish I would have said this. I sat her down. I was like, we're having it. We're doing it right now, because I know this is not going to last forever. I sat with her her last 96 hours. I was able to do that. And after she died, I felt like I knew exactly how to grieve at that moment in time. I knew how to, you know how you, when you talk about your son and your father, you smile.

48:15
That's all I did after the fact. Like I didn't have a lot of those sad moments because I was like, I did it right this time. Like it was like that terrible experience for so long gave me this beautiful version of losing someone that I love so much. And so, you know, I've been able to process that and how now I look at death in a quite a different way. And it feels, I mean, it's terrible that I had to go through that and my mom had a diet.

48:45
32 and you know, like all that really sucks. But at the same time look what it gave me Look what it's continuing to give me and so at this point in my journey, I feel quite different than I did Flailing around as a child as a teenager as a 20 something year old even as a 30 year old, you know And so our journeys are quite interesting in that way But also what you're doing with that grief, of course you have it and you will always have it

49:15
But like you said, you're channeling maybe the things that might not serve you the most if you were just sitting in it, and you're channeling it into something that's helping other people. And that's just like so beautiful and inspiring. And a lot of people listening are probably like, how? Like, how does she do that? And so I answer that when people say that. I do think that their energy is part of me. I do. I feel like...

49:43
I allow their energy to be part of me. I feel like I see it. And I just, I can't explain it. I mean, I know like physiologically, I'm a seven hour sleeper, right? I know I need seven hours of sleep. I know I like water better than anything else. I mean, I'm pretty much a healthy person. I eat pretty healthy. Except for that pie. Except for that rhubarb pie and that sweet tea. Sometimes I overdo it on the sugar. But other than that, I have a lot of capacity.

50:12
And I think I have that capacity because I have two lives that their energy, I allow their energy to flow through me and I welcome it. And so when I feel that energy burst, I use it. I just use it. It's hard to explain. I mean, it's beautiful to see. And I think, you know, your tragedy is now affecting people in a positive way, if that makes any sense, you know, and with workplace healing. Absolutely. You know, that.

50:41
you guys are helping organizations create a space that's okay to talk about or how to approach, when someone that you work with has just lost a loved one, what do you do? Because we're all so uncomfortable in this moment. We don't know what to say because there isn't really anything great to say. But I'm sure that by creating this safer space where people are comfortable enough to just bring it up and to just talk about it and feel okay with it.

51:11
you're taking your own experiences and turning that into where people can process things better. It's just really inspiring. We call that empathy leadership development. And so we're working to develop people on their empathy. We wanna strengthen the empathy muscle of people everywhere so that they do feel more comfortable having a conversation with someone who has been a griever. So that is what we're doing. And I...

51:39
I do again, I feel like I channel them to be positive. I didn't say, sometimes I don't remember certain things specifically, but when I was at the vigil, I said the words, something good has to come from this. I said those words, something good has to come from this. And again, there was nothing written at the time. I mean, I just got up there and spoke and I have to say.

52:03
something good has to come from this. And I look at what I've created and what I'll continue to create on behalf of them and other people, and something good is coming from it. And that is so energizing because lives were taken that should not have been. They should not have lost their lives. He was 14 years old. My dad was 69 and still working as a medical practicing doctor.

52:30
It's angering and senseless and so something good had to come from it. And I am putting all my efforts into that. You're doing it. I mean, it's so inspiring and so devastating and so heartbreaking. And, you know, I spoke with a friend on the show. She happily married two daughters. Her husband was on a small plane for work and she was texting with him. And then all of a sudden he was like, something's wrong. And she.

52:58
now has to live the life and try to keep her husband alive through her daughters and teach her daughter, her young, young daughters what life, what her, what their dad was like. And, you know, you have these conversations, it's like, what do you say? How do you say it? And so, you know, if you're, if you see someone that's, that's grieving, is there something that you say or do? Like, what's the first thing you do knowing what you know, and the experiences that you've had? Is there anything that, what do you, what do you say to people?

53:26
Yes, actually I was in church this last Sunday and the woman in front of me turned around and looked at me and I introduced myself and she said, oh my gosh, I know who you are and I'm so sorry for your tragedy. And she said, I lost my daughter five years ago and this woman was older than me and she said, I lost my daughter five years ago. She said, does it get any better? Can you help me? Does it get any better? And the first thing that I said to her and I say to many people is I say, you know what, allow yourself to have the sadness, allow yourself.

53:56
to cry. So many times, Matt, we wanna cry at a certain location where we are, and maybe we don't feel comfortable crying where we are. So I say to people, find a safe environment where you could cry. And let's say you go to that environment and you're like, okay, cry. Well, what you do then is you write a letter to your loved one. And that, the tears will come. Write a letter to your loved one. What would you like to say to your loved one right now? Tell them about your day, tell them what's going on, tell them that you miss them.

54:25
So find a safe environment, psychologically safe, physically safe, and write a letter to your loved one, and let the tears flow. And write as much as you want, cry as long as you need to, because at some point, you will feel the light. You will feel some light from somewhere will come to you, and then you'll take a breath, and you'll be all snotty-nosed and runny eyes, and you're gonna be a mess, but you're gonna feel better. And then, go eat their favorite food.

54:55
Go drink their favorite drink. Go look at the sunrise or the sunset and think of them. And then think to yourself, okay, what are my next steps? And they'll come to you. Those next steps will come to you. And it may be, do the best you can do in school today. Do the best you can do at your job today. Be the best parent you can be to your child who just lost the other parent. But definitely allow yourself the opportunity

55:24
to get that sadness, pour it out of your heart, because I think stuffing it down makes us sick. And so I'm definitely a proponent of get it out however you can, if it's kickboxing, again, if it's running, if it's journaling, but definitely cry. And she said, I cry a lot. I said, you're gonna cry more, and that's okay. She said, okay. So she, so off she went. You know, and.

55:49
People ask me because of, I guess, my own experiences. And I say something very similar. I say, allow yourself to feel however you're feeling at that moment in time. If you're mad, be mad. That's OK. If you happen to watch something on television, and you laugh, and then you feel bad about it, it's OK. You're allowed all the pieces of being a human involve all those emotions. And

56:15
I think sometimes you're right, people feel a certain way. They have to feel, or some people feel like they have to feel sad all the time. You know, like it's 100% crying and for some maybe that's, that is and maybe not. But don't feel bad about not doing that or feel bad about doing that. And I think it's important to understand that we're all going to go through grief, at least from what I've seen people around me in a different timetable, in a different way. But.

56:44
It's all possible. It's possible if you trust yourself and really like lean into just your experiences as a human that, you know, like we are still here. Those of us that are left behind are still here. And so- At least we think we are. Well, yeah, maybe. It's a good point. I've had lots of those thoughts. I think I'm here, Matt. I think you're here. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've had lots of those thoughts and having, I call it failing at grief for so long.

57:13
I look back on it and I'm like, man, did that serve me? Maybe it did. Maybe the way that I was doing it and running from it served me in some way that at some point I will uncover and understand. But I love the idea of writing letters. I think that was my first, I think that was my first foray into like breaking the shell of me. Like when I was about 16, I had to do an assignment for school and I chose to write about the moment, literally the life shift.

57:43
moment in my life and finding how that came about later on. But, you know, like, that was the first I took the next day off of school because I couldn't stop crying. And it was like the first time that I had experienced that. My dad was like, he didn't know what to do. But you know, like, it is writing, writing about writing for writing to there's something really healing in that. Yes. And you you touched on two things I want to expand on just a little bit you talked about.

58:10
the feelings, I say, feel the feels, feel the feels, right? So you said that, feel the feelings, whatever it is, so feel the feels. Grief is exhausting. It is physically exhausting. And I didn't know that. And when people are new to grief, they're like, I'm so tired all the time. I'm so tired. And I'm like, well, yes, that's grief. It could be a form of depression. It's just your body is experiencing it. So physically, we experience grief. And that was very new to me. I mean, I had...

58:39
lost a grandmother who I was really very close to, very close to, and I cried and cried and cried, but I didn't experience physical difficulty for weeks on end, which we did. All of us felt it with my dad and Reed, just physically, it felt like, I say, it felt like we were walking through molasses. So I think it's important that people understand that depending on how the grief affects them, whatever their grief is, and they shouldn't measure their grief against your grief, and nor should they measure their grief against my grief. It's whatever grief they have.

59:09
and they should, I think, feel their feels. And if it does affect them physically, then pay attention to it. And if it doesn't really affect them physically, then that's okay too. It's just how they process it. I think it's so important that people understand there's not a prescription. There's really not like, here's how you do it. It's gonna be, there are probably some good best practices for people that have experienced it, but everyone kind of has to find that journey and trust themselves. I think trusting.

59:37
that they can go through it and that they can find that joy, hearing that song in Nashville at the right time. Maybe you had heard it before and it just didn't come in. And at that moment, it was like, oh, a little crack. I can see it. There's a little bit of light coming through. And I think it's important to just trust that journey. I like to kind of end these conversations with a question that is kind of impossible to answer.

01:00:07
But I'm wondering if you could, like if you could whisper in Mindy's ear that morning when you're cooking breakfast before everyone's heading out the door, before her life really was gonna change, is there anything that you would want to let her know about what she was gonna go through or how she was going to handle things? If I could have whispered to myself, I would have said, video his song. Video his song.

01:00:36
Can you see it and hear it still? Yes, in my head. But I would have said video is song, but that was the first, that's the first thing that came to mind was, yeah, I would have said video is song. I would say it's going to be harder than anything you've ever done, anything that you've ever experienced. It's a pain that you do not realize that your body can feel. Yeah, it's a pain you can't describe. It is a pain you cannot describe. And I would...

01:01:04
say there's many people that will never understand the pain that you've been through. And I've had this conversation with someone else who lost people tragically. And what he told me was really helpful is that sometimes we try to compare. Like, oh, your story's so much worse than mine. And we minimize our own. I think I even did it in this conversation. But as humans, like, that is the worst pain you've ever experienced. Mine...

01:01:33
was the worst pain I've ever experienced. So we're both experiencing the worst pain we could ever imagine. And I think that's important for people to understand is that there's not a comparison here. It's the worst pain we could ever imagine for ourselves and we're going through it. We're facing it and you're helping people do this through your own pain, through your own healing and just so inspired by what you and Lisa are doing that it's just like, I'm grateful that I've come into your orbit.

01:02:04
But speaking of orbit, if people want to read your book or learn more about workplace healing or learn about Seven Days or learn about any of these things that are in your world, what's the best way that people can do that? Yes, so, well there are a variety of ways, but to learn all about all of those at the same time would just really be to Google me. To Google my name, there's a lot of information. But Seven Days is S-E-V-E-N-D-A-Y-S dot org.

01:02:33
So that's Seven Days website, S-E- And we focus on educating high school and middle school students on kindness. So we're very, very focused on enriching students' lives and helping them be kindness influencers. Yeah, I love it. We have education programs and resources for students. That's Seven Days. And then Healing a Shattered Soul is the name of my book, and you could find it with my name, and it's on Amazon, it's available on Audible.

01:03:03
I actually read the book, so you'll hear my voice. So I read the book, you know, buy it any way you want, if you want to, that would be great. And then Workplace Healing is work It is just work And right now it's B2B, so it's business to business. It's not business to consumer, but that is, you know, that's what we have going on right now. Our goal is to increase empathy in the humans who are leading.

01:03:29
so that those humans can be the life jacket. So it's like we throw the life jacket to the leader. In fact, we give the leader two, we give the leader a life jacket for themselves and a life jacket for their grieving employee. And so we help them along the way and then we give them these life jackets and we buoy them while they're in the chaos. Because we can't solve grief and we can't solve that sadness, but we can be the life jacket for people when they're in the middle of that stormy ocean.

01:03:59
It's so wonderful what you are doing, and I thank you for being a part of the Life Shift podcast, this fulfilling journey that I never knew I needed. And I think these listeners that I hear from behind the scenes are like, I needed to hear so-and-so's story today. So I know that we're going to hear from people about your story. So thank you for sharing it. You are welcome. Thank you for doing what you're doing, Matt. I really appreciate it. Blessings to you. Thank you so much. If you're listening right now and you

01:04:27
find something that Mindy said important or you wanna share it with someone that might be going through an experience similar or in a grief journey, please share it with them and hopefully they'll feel a little less alone. And with that, I will say goodbye and I'll see you next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift Podcast. Thanks again, Mindy.