Unearthing Family Secrets: How a Memoir Changed Everything for Suzanne Rico

Suzanne Rico
00:00:41

Great question. Because I could not even look at it for two years. I. I just. I could not even look at a picture of her. I could not even think about reading her memoir.

It was like every time I saw, like, her handwriting on something, I would just, like, I would lose it. And, you know, my dad died when I was 56, and it was a very different grieving experience because I was younger. I was working really hard.

I was like, okay, I'm going back to work. And that's how I dealt with my grief, is I just steamrolled right over it with my mom. I wasn't working. I mean, I wasn't at a corporate job.

And it's like it just overtook me like a big, huge wave. And I just got caught in that surf and tumbled around. And it was two years before I finally could bring myself to open that book.

And when I did, I felt this. Like, on that day, it wasn't like, a long thing, but on that day, I felt like something just lighten up and this weight come off my shoulders.

And I recognized it as. As having shifted from the active grieving process to a new phase where I could tolerate the loss of her.

Matt Gilhooly
00:02:01

Today's guest is Suzanne Rico, and she is a journalist, and she is an Emmy Award winner, and she is a new podcaster who has really gone on this deeply personal and, dare I say, transformative journey following the death of her mother and discovering her mother's memoir that was partially finished. This episode really covers kind of the impact of Suzanne uncovering her family's complex history in Nazi Germany.

And you'll definitely want to hear this.

She takes us through an emotional roller coaster of discovering her grandfather's involvement in World War II and how piecing together her mother's unfinished memoir led to this beautiful path of self discovery, understanding, reconciliation, all culminating in the release of a very popular podcast now called the man who Calculated Death. So make sure after this episode, you go find that show and you listen to all the episodes that are out.

I promise you, this is an episode that you don't want to miss. So make sure you listen to the full episode. And I appreciate you. I appreciate Suzanne.

And without further ado, here is my conversation with Suzanne Rico. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is the Life Shift Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

Suzanne Rico
00:03:31

Foreign.

Matt Gilhooly
00:03:38

Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with Suzanne. Hello.

Suzanne Rico
00:03:42

Hi. Nice to be here.

Matt Gilhooly
00:03:43

Well, thank you for joining me, and thank you for being a part of the Life Shift podcast. It has been Quite a journey for me, and I just never knew I needed it. And here we are.

Suzanne Rico
00:03:53

Isn't that strange how life can sometimes serve up exactly what you need? And you're like, wait a minute, I did. Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:04:00

Yeah. And this. This, actually, this podcast started as a school assignment. I did, like, a bonus master's degree during the Pandemic.

I got my MBA when I was in my 20s. And here in my 40s, I was like, well, it's really boring here locked up at home, so I'm going to do another master's degree.

And I just took a podcasting class, and this was an assignment. And 164 episodes later, here we are.

Suzanne Rico
00:04:22

That's amazing. And I. I'm not interviewing you, although I am a news broadcaster and reporter.

So I'm going to have to read up more on your life, how you came up with this concept, because I think it's really, really cool.

Matt Gilhooly
00:04:35

Well, thank you.

And I will tell you because there are probably people listening for the first time, listening to your story, or they know you, or they feel connected to you. And the Life Shift podcast, besides starting as a school assignment, the theme of it starts from my own personal experience.

When I was 8, my mom was killed in a motorcycle accident. And at the time, my parents were divorced. They lived states apart.

I lived with my mom full time, was visiting my dad at the time, and he sat me down and had to tell me that my mom had died in that accident.

And at that moment, my life splintered from what it was supposed to be or what we all thought it was going to be, to this new version that no one had any idea what to do. New school, new state, new house, never going back to my own bed again kind of thing.

And growing up, this was the late 80s, early 90s, nobody was really talking about grief or mental health, let alone for a kid. Kids bounce back, you know, those kind of things.

And behind the scenes, I always wondered if other people had these line in the sand type moments where, like, one minute to the next, everything's different.

Now that I'm older, I realize we have lots of those, and, you know, it's interesting to talk about them, but really, that's where the Life Shift comes from. And I'm just so honored to be able to talk to people about all these different Life Shift moments in their lives.

And yours is totally different than something I would experience. But I bet there's a lot of pieces of your story that I'll be able to relate to and a lot that other people listening will be able to relate to.

And that's what's so beautiful about storytelling.

Suzanne Rico
00:06:13

Exactly.

I was just going to say that in telling my story, which, you know, has some pretty dark themes, I have been shocked at the people that say, like, oh, my gosh, I get it. Like, and I was.

I'm kind of gun shy about, like, what's the reaction going to be when I tell people that I have this grandfather who made a wonder weapon, you know, a secret super weapon for Adolf Hitler? Are they going to hate me? And really, people have been so encouraging and supportive, and I just. I love that because I never expected that either.

Matt Gilhooly
00:06:52

Yeah, that's tricky, too, I think, you know, now that you've given away the whole plot here. No, I'm just kidding.

Suzanne Rico
00:06:58

Spoiler alert.

Matt Gilhooly
00:07:00

It's tricky because there's a lot of conversations that we should be having but we don't have because we're afraid that other people are going to think certain things of us or connect, you know, your ancestors history to you. Like, all these things that we were kind of. We grew up thinking we can't share this. Like, for me, I wasn't allowed to be sad because I was a boy.

Right. Like, I wasn't allowed to cry because boys don't cry. And you grow up and then you. You assume that for so long.

And now all I want to do is talk to people about feelings and, like, the fact that I can be a full human and. And have all the emotions and those kind of things.

And so I totally understand your story where you're like, these really bad things happened in my lineage. And we'll talk the details about that in a second and then wonder, like, are people going to assign that to me?

But no, it's so important that you talk about it because we. We don't want it to happen again. We don't want more people. You know, like, we don't want more of these things to happen.

We don't want other little boys to not be able to cry and then grow up and feel like they can't be a fully formed human. So I love that you're putting this story out there. We're going to talk about it in this episode, but I think it kudos to you.

No matter what the response is, I hope that you absorb those pieces and feel really good about what you're doing.

Suzanne Rico
00:08:17

Thank you. I'm. I'm. I'm getting there. It's a slow, slow learning experience.

Matt Gilhooly
00:08:22

Well, I think it is for all of us. Yeah. So before we get into that particular Story.

You kind of hinted at it a little bit, but maybe you can tell us a little bit about who you are in this day and age. Who are you?

Suzanne Rico
00:08:32

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:08:33

What do you represent?

Suzanne Rico
00:08:33

That's. That's. I love the way you said that because it's in this day and age.

So for years, I had this, like, identity of who I was, and I was a newscaster and reporter. Right. I mean, that's what I did my whole career. It's. It's who I. It's what I based my identity around.

And I've been out of it for 10 years now and sort of casting around a little bit, you know, like, what am I going to do now?

Like, once that I decided to leave that business, I didn't really know who I was or who I should be, you know, and so I think I spent some years just trying to find something else that really fulfilled me and made me happy.

And then my mom died, which did not make me happy, but it sort of bequeathed me this legacy that became a passion project for me and took up the next six years of my life. So I would say that I'm a journalist first and foremost.

I have been lucky enough to work in several mediums, and now I am in the podcast medium for the first time. And as somebody who's going to be 60 in, oh, my God, two months, how is that possible? I feel like I'm so lucky to have found this at that age.

Like, I am really feeling, I think, for the first time in my life, super fulfilled, really challenged. Right. Like, you went and got a master's degree during COVID I started working on this podcast because I needed something for my mind.

And, you know, I. I've become, I think, pretty good at it. And I think I will do more and more of these projects.

And as we were talking about just a little while ago, like, when you put out these passion projects that are personal, you take a risk, right? And you have to be ready for whatever response you're going to get. So as I go forward with it, I'm, like, half terrified, half excited.

There needs to be a new word for that, Matt. We need to come up with a word for what it is to be excited and terrified at the same time, because that's very much how I feel. You asked who I am.

I'm a mom of two. I'm. I have great husband. I have a beautiful black lab named Blueberry.

If I didn't mention those things, you couldn't get a full idea of who I am, because I'm not just an obsessed journalist trying to tell a story. You know, I'm. I have a really full, beautiful life, and I'm so grateful for it.

Matt Gilhooly
00:11:03

Yeah, I. I mean, I love that transition for you, and I love that you're finding passion. I think you probably grew up thinking this as well. I know I did.

I just. You thought, like, a certain number age was old. Right. And, like, you couldn't do anything new after that.

For me, it was 32 because that's how old my mom was, so I thought she was old because I was eight. You know, like, she was old and I was not gonna do anything. And then I turned, you know, 33, and I was like, what do I do now?

But I love that, like, you're showing that you can find all these fun things that you can do at any age. And it's just a number, right?

Suzanne Rico
00:11:41

It is just a number. And here's one thing that really gets to me is when people talk about, like, oh, my third act. My third act. It's the third act. It's like, how many.

You can have as many acts as you want. You know, you can have as many life shifts as you want. You just have to be flex. It's staying flexible.

And obviously it's great if you can stay flexible physically, but mentally, you have to stay flexible and. And, like, you know, learn new things. And I don't want to think of this. I refuse to think of this as my third act. It's just my next act, and it.

I can't wait to see where it's going to take me.

Matt Gilhooly
00:12:14

Yeah. Before we get into your story, do you find it hard to.

Because I would imagine as a TV personality, if you will, or, you know, on the news or doing what you were doing, there's a. There's a big performative nature to that. And do you find it hard to.

To shed some of the performative nature when you're focused on, like, these more passion projects or things about you, or do you feel like it has to be perfect? I don't know. You understand where I'm going. Like, I feel like, you know, I.

Suzanne Rico
00:12:44

Think there's two sides of where you're going. I mean, the performative nature of my job, I've really shed all of that.

Like, my favorite thing to do is to come down and sit in my pajamas in front of my computer and work. You know, maybe I'll put a baseball hat on if I got to go walk the dog. So that was.

That was a big life shift for me of going from, you know, wearing suits, heels, makeup, hair, like, this is as good as it's ever going to get. You know, I just don't really care anymore. But there's also. Yeah, and that feels really good.

But there was another part of that that I wanted to address before I got into just the looks. And maybe it's just that, you know, getting older, I just don't care that much anymore what people think of me, you know, like that.

There's a lot of freedom in that.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:30

I agree. The older I get, the less I, you know, I just put it all out there. It's easier to put it out there and then not worry about it.

Suzanne Rico
00:13:36

It is. And guess what? If you don't like it, you can scroll. Like, you know, like. I don't know.

I used to worry so much about what everybody thinks, and, you know, people. People used to tell me, your lipstick color is wrong. And why do you.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:49

Why.

Suzanne Rico
00:13:50

Why do you have bangs? Or, you know, pick, pick, pick. And I was just like, whatever, you know, bring it on.

Matt Gilhooly
00:13:56

Glad you found this part of your life. And. And let's, you know, let's talk about your story.

And I think the best way to do it is maybe paint the picture of your life leading up to kind of what we're going to center, and then we can go from there.

Suzanne Rico
00:14:11

Okay. My mom grew up in Nazi Germany, right, as a child. And it was a story that she told to us in pieces when we were kids.

And she told it because I think it was so damaging to her, the things that happened to her. She told it in, like, a fairy tale style so that we really couldn't tell the difference between Sleeping Beauty or Cinderella or the Big Bad Wolf.

And the story that she told of, you know, her city burning and her home burning in a terror bombing or the day that her mother died very violently and mysteriously. I'm not going to spoil it for the podcast, but at the age of seven and so I didn't ever know about my own history.

You know, I didn't ever know about what she had gone through and who my grandfather was. And it wasn't until she died of her third cancer. She was diagnosed three times, and she beat the first two, and then the third one took her.

It wasn't until she died that I realized that she had written this memoir, kind of half written it, you know, and her last request really was that we finish this book for them. That my sisters. For her, that my sisters and I finished this. This memoir.

Well, you know, what you're probably thinking is how do you finish someone else's memoir? Right. Like, that's really intimate and specific. And so, yeah, it wasn't easy. It kicked off this kind of.

This quest for me to understand my family history in Nazi Germany and my connection to kind of the. The worst parts of Nazi Germany. The death and destruction, the Holocaust.

You know, my grandfather's flying bomb killed thousands of people in England. You know, there was. There were so many bad consequences of that, and I just dove into it headfirst to try to learn everything that I possibly could.

So that moment, or wasn't the moment. It wasn't the moment when my mom died, it was.

That started off sort of this balancing point where I knew I was going to change and fall into another life, but it took a while because I was so mired in grief.

Matt Gilhooly
00:16:37

Yeah, well, did you. So you didn't know that she had written down this. This memoir at all?

Suzanne Rico
00:16:42

She had. She had, like, told us that, yeah, I'm writing this memoir, but I had never seen it. I didn't know what state it was in.

I didn't really know, like, what she was writing about. And, you know, when I was a kid also, my mom had these really, really severe panic attacks and post traumatic stress. Tons.

Yes, but like you said in 1960s and 70s, post traumatic stress disorder wasn't even a term. Right. That didn't come till 1984. So there was no dialogue around it. There was.

And she would take us kids, like, shopping for back to school, and then halfway through our shopping trip, she would run out, like, in a panic, like, you know, like, barely breathing. And we just thought she was weird, you know, we were just like, oh, mom's freaking out again.

So, you know, it's been such an amazing experience and a difficult experience, but part of it is that I got to know my mom so much better in death, you know? Isn't that weird?

Matt Gilhooly
00:17:47

I don't know that it is. I think that a lot of times we. We just. Like you said, you just thought she was weird. You just kind of like, we just make these assumptions.

We push things aside. We don't ask questions, especially in the time period that you grew up. Same here.

Like, I didn't ask all the questions that maybe this version of me would have asked or the questions that you asked as you were going down that road, you know, like, I wish I.

Suzanne Rico
00:18:12

Could go back and talk to her about it, Matt. And that's what I would say to any listener out there right now. Like, talk to your loved ones, your parents, ask your questions.

Because the as you and I both know, the opportunity gets taken away from you and you can't ever go back and recreate that.

I wish that I had said to her, you know, mom, I'm so sorry, you know, just have some empathy, like, I'm so sorry for what you went through, but by the time I learned about it, it was too late.

Matt Gilhooly
00:18:38

Yeah. And I mean, and maybe in this, in this fantasy version of us being able to do all these things, she wouldn't have been able to answer you.

You know, maybe that stress, maybe that trauma, maybe her safety was telling you these stories in a way that was palatable. If you can't, like, if you will.

Suzanne Rico
00:18:57

For sure, for sure it was for her. I call it a defense mechanism. Right.

So her defense mechanism was to certainly not glorify is not the word I'm looking for, but like animate in a way that made it seem like it happened to somebody else.

Matt Gilhooly
00:19:12

And it was probably her way of processing. I would imagine there's some kind of therapy that does similar things in a way. And maybe that was.

She was trying to self soothe in a way and tell you the stories of like, maybe I can dip my toes, let you all know that something came before me or in my childhood. But yeah, it's so interesting to, to then find or be able to read this memoir.

How long did it take you to like crack it open and read it for the first time? And then how long did it take for you to like, take action?

Suzanne Rico
00:19:47

Great question. Because I could not even look at it for two years. I just, I could not even look at a picture of her. I could not even think about reading her memoir.

It was like every time I saw like her handwriting on something, I would just like, I would lose it. And you know, my dad died when I was 56, and it was a very different grieving experience because I was younger. I was working really hard.

I was like, okay, I'm going back to work. And that's how I dealt with my grief is I just steamrolled right over it with my mom. I wasn't working. I mean, I wasn't at a corporate job.

And it's like it just over took me, like, like a big, huge wave. And I just got caught in that surf and tumbled around and. And it was two years before I finally could bring myself to open that book.

And when I did, I felt this, like on that day, it wasn't like a long thing, but on that day I felt like something just lightening up and. And this weight come off my shoulders. And I recognized it as.

As having shifted from the active grieving process to a new phase where I could tolerate the loss of her. You know what I mean? Where I could. Where I could handle it, and where she felt with me and she hadn't felt with me.

That was one of the things, Matt, that.

That the grief was so terrific because I would, like, look for her somewhere out there in heaven or the universe or wherever you want to believe our loved ones go. And I could not find any trace of her. And that broke me. That broke my heart.

Matt Gilhooly
00:21:33

It's a lot of pressure to put on yourself, though.

Suzanne Rico
00:21:36

I just wanted. I was just like, mom, come on, where are you? You're around somewhere, right? You know, show me that you're here.

And finally, when I opened that memoir, I was like, oh, there you are. And it's never been the same. You know, I've. I've just gone up and up and up from there, and now I feel her with me every. Every moment. Really.

Matt Gilhooly
00:21:58

I.

First of all, I think your story about grief or your comments about grief are so important to share, because I think people assume that there's, like, one way to grieve, or like you pointed out, there's one way that Suzanne will grieve. There's one way that Matt will grieve.

It's not true, because you had a different grieving experience when you lost your father than to when you lost your mother.

Suzanne Rico
00:22:27

I.

Matt Gilhooly
00:22:27

It took me 20 years to, what I would say, grieve my mother. And then when my grandmother got sick, she became my best friend.

When my mom died, she kind of took the mother figure over, and I felt like I knew how to do it.

Like, I had that final conversation with her, sat her down, said everything I ever needed to say that I probably would have shared at the eulogy to her face and had that conversation. But it's because of the first version, you know, like.

Suzanne Rico
00:22:54

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:22:54

And so I think it's important that we share our grief journeys and we tell people, like, no, it sucked for two years. It sucked for two decades, whatever it was. And I couldn't do anything I wanted to do.

And I felt like I needed to be a certain place at a certain time. But, no, it's our own journey, and so important. But I'm sorry that you maybe felt like it was not great for you as well.

Suzanne Rico
00:23:18

It was just. Yeah. I would say, do you look back.

Matt Gilhooly
00:23:20

On it as, like, maybe something you needed?

Suzanne Rico
00:23:25

No, I look back on it as just a really, like, I don't really recognize that woman. Because I felt like for everybody else, I was performing, surprise, surprise, I could do that, right? And I was like, oh, okay, I'm good.

When inside, I just felt completely, like, blank and empty and. And. And heartbroken. Like, it wasn't just this, like, dull, nothing feeling. It was this really visceral, like, ripping grief.

And I felt like because of my kids, because of all the people that. That surround me and love me and look to me, I felt like I had to, you know, look like I had it together when I really didn't.

So for me, it was such a relief to get out of that. I can't even tell you. I'm still grateful for it today because I remember so vividly how awful it.

Matt Gilhooly
00:24:17

Was when you were saying that. And this is me making assumptions here on my podcast.

Do you think that the way you performed in those two years was similar to the way that your mom kind of approached things when she was raising you and sharing those stories?

Suzanne Rico
00:24:31

Where are you getting these questions? That is an amazing question. Because my mom and I were so similar, and my mom and I both had this performative have. I have.

She had this performative quality about, like, we will entertain, and we will put on our smiley faces, and we will, you know, make it all sound great. She did that with her story, and I did that.

Like, I remember when my parents got divorced when I was 12, people would say, like, oh, well, isn't that awful? Aren't you sad? I'd be like, no, no, no, I'm fine. It's good. I'm totally fine. You know, let's just move on. When my dad died, you know. Oh, God.

Do you want to take some time off work? No, no, no. God, no. Let's just. Let's just go. You know, that's. We both had that sort of, like, don't look at it too deeply. Just turn and move forward.

Put one foot in front of another, and you'll walk out of whatever trouble you were.

So I think going back to those two years of really deep grief, I think that's the first time I ever really got mired in something that I couldn't get myself out of.

Matt Gilhooly
00:25:32

Yeah, but you were still performing for everyone else.

Suzanne Rico
00:25:34

Oh, yeah, I was. And I was. And I was. Well, yes. And then I would hit the deck every once in a while.

You know, those closest to me saw the sort of undoings every once in a while.

And I would say that they were good if they had led to, like, a gradual healing, but it didn't feel like, that it really did feel like I kind of healed from one day to the next, and it was that book.

Matt Gilhooly
00:26:02

Well, I think that's important. I think. I don't mean good. Like they. No, I was so happy to see that.

But I think it's important for people to see us not at our best to know that, like, we're fully human and we're experiencing life, and it's not always easy and sunshines and rainbows and all the things that come with it. But in any case, I. I love that, that.

That reminder of your mother when you were ready for it came in the way it did and kind of unleashed this next part of your journey in the fact that, like, now you have this half finished or however much finished book that your mom wrote. How the hell do you write someone else's memoir if only the stories you know are the.

The fantastical versions of them that your mom gave you early on?

Suzanne Rico
00:26:52

Well, I don't know if you've. If you've followed along with the math, but she died in 2013, and it's now 2024, and I'm just the end of it. So it was a long process.

I couldn't start it at the beginning.

And then when I finally did start it, even though I very much felt my mom with me, urging me on, being very positive and happy about that, I felt like, I can't do this. Like, there were so many times, Matt, where I just got to a point where I was like, she's not around to ask.

I don't understand what she's talking about. I don't understand what my grandfather did. I mean, like, I found a telegram from Hermann Girling, who is, like, Adolf Hitler's number two in command.

That was to my grandfather, congratulating him on this. On this flying bomb on the world's first cruise missile because it had just destroyed a church in England. And I'm like, oh, my God.

Like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay, stop. Like, I need to know more about this before I can even start to do that book. So that.

That was the sort of inception of the podcast version, which is my narrative, right? That's my narrative.

I don't know if we want to skip to that, but I realized that there's no way that I could finish that book until I educated myself as much as I could about the larger history around it, about what my grandfather did. And that took years and years.

And once I finished that, I went back to her book, and I built in her words as a child and Tried to braid it into the larger history. Right. Because it needed context. That was one thing that she didn't put in is the context. And you were talking about World War II Germany. Right.

That's a pretty amazing, terrible context.

Matt Gilhooly
00:28:51

And how old was she when she left?

Suzanne Rico
00:28:53

She was 75, but she was very young. 75. I, I, I feel like it's always like, oh, 75, who cares? She, and I'm like, no, she was, she went too early.

Matt Gilhooly
00:29:02

But did she, did she move to the States or did she live.

Suzanne Rico
00:29:05

Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, she left Germany at 11.

Matt Gilhooly
00:29:08

Okay.

Suzanne Rico
00:29:08

She immigra. She immigrated to the United States when she was 11. Yeah.

And then she just, she just pushed all of her German heritage to the past and looked to the future and became an American. That's like, was her goal. Talk about a life shift, you know, I mean, her life shift there was total, you know, she learned English in three months.

Matt Gilhooly
00:29:30

Yeah.

Suzanne Rico
00:29:30

She became an English professor. She wrote two best selling books. Like, okay, mom. Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:29:36

No pressure on you now to finish that up.

Suzanne Rico
00:29:38

Exactly.

Matt Gilhooly
00:29:39

Before you tell me your story of like, digging into that and how you created your narrative and finished her book. How did your, did your sisters have a similar experience to you when your mom passed and with this memoir and was there an involvement in this or.

Suzanne Rico
00:29:54

So my sister Stephanie, my older sister Stephanie, she is my co pilot, I would call her in the podcast, and she has worked on a version of the memoir as well. Like a version that is sort of just what my mom was writing and without the context that I'm trying to put it in.

So she has been intimately involved in all steps of it. My younger sister, Simone, she actually read my mom's pieces of my mom's memoir for the podcast and played.

She's a beautiful pianist and she did the classical piano music that I used throughout the podcast. So she was involved in that way.

As far as, like, grieving experiences, it's strange because I'm so close to my sisters, but we all three really had different, I think, different experiences with that.

Matt Gilhooly
00:30:45

I think it's normal. I don't think it's too strange. I think, you know, we're all individuals at the end of the day, so.

Yeah, you know, I think we process them in different ways. I was just curious if, like, they had, like, if they were like, I'm gonna read it tomorrow after she died or if it was a longer period.

Suzanne Rico
00:30:59

In which they were more able to do all of that than I was. For sure. Like, we did this memorial video for my mom you know, after she died.

And I saw it at her funeral, and I did not see it again for maybe seven years because every time I turned it on, I would cry so hard that I couldn't see it anyway, so I'd just turn it off.

Matt Gilhooly
00:31:19

Well, fair. I think that's. I think that's fine. It's curious how we think that everyone that has a similar relationship with someone might grieve the same way.

And it was like, I was the first one to, like, thumbs up, grieve my grandmother in a way that felt very positive. And my father and his brother didn't grieve in the same way because this was really the first loved one of theirs.

I mean, they loved my mom, but she wasn't blood related to them.

Suzanne Rico
00:31:46

Right.

Matt Gilhooly
00:31:47

This was the first loss for them. So they didn't really know how to approach it in the same way that I was like, I'm a pro. Like, I can do it, so it makes a lot of sense.

So tell me, what was that like, what was the first step where you had to start to create this context?

Because now you're finding these letters, you're finding telegrams, you're finding all this stuff that, like, you probably normally would read in, like, a history book or, like in a museum or something. And these are in your personal artifacts.

Suzanne Rico
00:32:14

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:32:15

What is that?

Suzanne Rico
00:32:15

Like, once I realized that I had this really amazing archive of family history, I went to my aunts, right? Because I'm a journalist, you know, I was like, okay, what's my source here? What's my source? Like, how am I going to figure this out?

So I basically went to my aunts, who at that time were 88 and 90 years old. And I said, look, guys, you need to help me. You need to be my guides into the past. My mom is not here.

You need to explain these things to me as best you can. And, boy, Matt, they. Both of them are pack rats.

And they brought out more stuff and just like, you know, letters about when my grandfather joined the Nazi party in 1937 and, you know, a ski binding that he invented in 1955. And, like, they had so much stuff.

And so I really had them sort of take me step by step, guide me into the past, and give me as many narratives as they could. And they're amazing. At 88 and 90, they're. They were all there.

And what I found was that when you go that far into the past, really anywhere into the past three years, and you talk to different people about what they remember, it's different Right. So my mom had a different story than my aunt Heidi had a different story than my Aunt Trouty. They remembered their father in different ways.

And so what I wanted to do with my version of it is I wanted to make it my story. Right. I didn't want to tell my aunt's story. That's not fair. I didn't want to tell my mom's story. I didn't want to tell my girl.

I wanted to tell my story about finding out the truth about my family. And I think that's what it turned out to be. It's this investigation, slash exploration, slash adventure, slash quest to understand this.

This time in history that was really important, and where world history and my history collide. Right.

Matt Gilhooly
00:34:23

I mean, that's fascinating.

Suzanne Rico
00:34:24

It was kind of. It was kind of cool. It was really cool, actually. And I think I describe it in the. In the podcast this way. At some point, the.

The really blurry pieces, missing puzzle that was my family ancestry began to feel a little bit more like a map and something that I could actually put my finger on and start to trace the family steps that led to me, you know, being born in 1965 in Cupertino, California.

Matt Gilhooly
00:34:56

Yeah.

Suzanne Rico
00:34:57

So it really turned from, like, a crappy puzzle that I couldn't figure out how to put together to a roadmap from the past to the future.

Matt Gilhooly
00:35:08

Yeah. I mean, that's fascinating in itself to be able to uncover that.

I mean, I watched, like, finding your roots, like, on pbs, and you kind of hear all these things. Your. Your aunts were basically the archivists with all the things that. That they had for you.

Suzanne Rico
00:35:24

Yep.

Matt Gilhooly
00:35:25

But how also, like, cool enough if you're understanding your. Your ancestry, but yours is complicated because now you have this to. To deal with.

Does any part of you start to, like, absorb that, to feel like, is there a guilt that comes with it? Is there a shame? Like, how. How does someone discovering more of this for the first time kind of process that.

Suzanne Rico
00:35:54

Well, that's another question that I absolutely love. And you're dead on, because I had never thought about concepts of generational or collective guilt before. Why would I think about that?

I had never thought about what responsibility I might have as the descendant of a Nazi scientist who made a weapon of mass destruction. What responsibility do I have not for World War II or for the Holocaust, but to somehow contribute to solving. You can't solve the problem.

It already happened. But do you know what I'm saying? What responsibility do I have to make sure that never happens again? You know, to speak out to tell my story.

So I had to wrestle with those issues straight up at the beginning, because once we went to Germany, my sister and I went through Germany, to Germany. We followed our family path physically through Germany. I realized that there was this.

This shame and pride simultaneously battling within my heart, right? So you go. You go to a museum, or you go and you talk to somebody, like, who knows about my grandfather.

Like, I talked to this professor of armament and aviation in Germany, and he's like, your grandfather was one of the most brilliant engineers in Germany at that time. And he was a race pilot and a fly. You know, he. He flew some of the earliest airplanes and designed some of the earliest airplanes.

And you feel like, yay. Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. Like, I'm the descendant of this brilliant guy, right?

And then we went to an underground concentration camp called Mittelbaudola, where slave laborers had to build my grandfather's bombs. They assembled them there. Right? And you hear that 20,000 people died doing that, and you're like, oh, shit, I can never be proud of that.

So there was like, there's a lot of conflicting emotions.

And I will tell you that I went into this, specifically the podcast project, with two goals, and one was that I did not want to try to redeem my grandfather, and I did not want to try to condemn him, Right? So I didn't want that to be like, oh, let's just make him evil or let's just make him good. Right? None of us are.

Yeah, none of us are that black and white. We're shades of gray as he was. He was a very complicated, complex man of his time, you know, of the. Of the 20s and 30s. You know, he had.

He had a lot of those, you know, misogynistic. He was very arrogant, narcissistic, that kind of thing. But he also, you know, he saved his family in the aftermath of World War II.

He kept them together, five kids, and somehow survived.

Matt Gilhooly
00:38:59

It's hard to reconcile something like that, I would imagine.

Suzanne Rico
00:39:02

It kind of makes me sick a little bit to talk about it, because I'm afraid sometimes that people are going to say, like, oh, you were. You were. Well, you're just trying to make him sound good or, you know, redeem him or wipe the slate clean. And I'm like, no, no, no. That was never.

It's never been my goal. And I hope people see in the podcast that I'm trying to understand. I'm not trying to make judgment.

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:27

No. And I think that's what we all should be Doing is trying to understand. So, one, we don't do it again.

And, you know, and we don't let these things happen.

Suzanne Rico
00:39:36

We.

Matt Gilhooly
00:39:36

We take them out of the shadows. Right? We take them out of the places that people hide them. Like your.

You know, your mother, to protect herself, hid a lot of things from everyone because it was too traumatic for her, and she didn't want to share that. She probably had some shame that came along with it. And so, you know, I think it's great that you're.

First of all, I think it's great that you went into it with this intention. Like, you're not trying to go one way or the other. You're just trying to paint the picture.

You're just trying to show that this was a complicated human being who maybe thought he was making the right decisions, maybe he didn't. We don't really know. Right.

Suzanne Rico
00:40:12

Well, that's the thing, Matt, is that you can try to put yourself in his shoes, and you can try to say, well, here's what I would have done in 1939 when the war was starting, and you're an aeronautical engineer, and they come to you and they say, hey, can you build this fighter plane or wonder weapon or whatever? And you have five kids and they give you a paycheck. Like, it's really hard to armchair quarterback from the future.

So do I wish he'd made some different choices? Certainly I do. Do I know that I would have made different choices? That's where it becomes a little bit more hazy.

Matt Gilhooly
00:40:46

No. And we can't answer for our. For people that aren't us. We really can't, you know, do those kind of things.

But something you said about kind of how this trauma could pass through generations and kind of this. This ownership of some kind of shame or something that comes along with it.

And part of me made me think of someone on the podcast talked to me about epigenetics. Have you talked at all about that or thought about that?

Suzanne Rico
00:41:14

Yeah, my sister knows about all of that stuff, right?

Matt Gilhooly
00:41:17

Yeah. And something in that. That.

Something that maybe your mom's trauma kind of gets buried in that DNA and kind of passes on to the next generations, and you don't really. Maybe it's a little bit more subtle. Maybe it's. Whatever it is, and maybe that is the. That connection of how that. That.

The way you performed through grief and those kind of things, similar to your mom. I wonder if part of that relates to how that passes down.

I mean, I think I got some of my grandmother's trauma from her terrible childhood passed, you know, through. And so I always think about these things, of how, like, we can be connected to these people.

Yes, you can look at DNA, and of course, we're connected in that way, but some other things might have come along with it, and that's how that kind of feeds into you.

Suzanne Rico
00:42:02

Yeah, I think that's. I think that is certainly. It's an interesting premise.

And I also think that, like, just by being in physical proximity to people that we love, our parents growing up, like, her trauma certainly leaked into me somehow, you know, even though I think she tried not to let it do that, but now it feels, you know, the things that happen to her and that time feels really alive to me. You know, it's really a weird feeling. It's hard for me to express, but, like, my grandmother died in 1945 at the age of 41. I never met her.

My grandfather, I never met him. But it's weird because I swear to God, I know them. Like, I have gotten to know them.

And it's like, as much as you can get into the mind of a dead man, I feel like I have. And it's a. It's. It's kind of a cool, but kind of eerie, eerie feeling, you know, but.

Matt Gilhooly
00:43:01

You'Ve probably done a lot more work than a lot of people do about. For their grandparents or, you know, those kind of things to get to know them. So I think imagine. I imagine a lot of that seeps in. But did you do any.

What I. What. What you might consider redemptive type things in this journey?

Like, did you do anything that you felt like, I need to do this to either ease my soul or help my mom's soul or whatever in that journey.

Suzanne Rico
00:43:27

I don't know that you're talking about redemption in the same way that what I'm thinking of as soon as you ask that question.

But one of the things that was super, super important to me was to go and to connect with one of the Holocaust survivors that worked in the underground camp where my grandfather's bombs were assembled. And it took me three years to find one.

And not because they weren't findable, but because every survivor group that I reached out to declined to help me, because as soon as I told them who I was, you know, I was the granddaughter of the scientist who made the V1 flying bomb, they were like, no, no, no. Like, that didn't feel comfortable for them to be putting the two of us together. But for me, it wasn't a complete story without that side of it.

And I feel like even in my family, like, growing up, and as I tried to learn more, like, everybody wanted to sweep that part of it under the rug. You know, that's. It's unpleasant, it's uncomfortable. You know, it's like, oh, genius engineer, great.

So I felt like to tell only that part of the story without this. The darkest. The darkest part was not fair to anybody that would listen to the podcast. It wasn't fair to myself.

So that was just really, really important to me, and I guess maybe redemption. As soon as you said that, somehow this man gave me this gift.

And I don't characterize it as redemption, but I characterize it as, like, a lesson in humanity, in that he let me into his world, into his life, into his story. I sat there with him. I think it's one of the best interviews I've ever done, and I've been doing it for a long time, and I think it's super powerful.

And Oscar. His name's Oscar. Oscar was able to find. I mean, this is a guy who. 40 of his family members were gassed at Auschwitz.

He was able to find some empathy for my grandfather. And that just completely blew me away and did give me like, okay, this is what I've been working so hard for.

This is why I felt like I had to do this story, because it's going to connect me to these people on the other side that make my experience wider and deeper and open my heart in ways that I would have never had my heart opened if I hadn't done this. Yeah, he's amazing.

Matt Gilhooly
00:45:57

Maybe the approach was this, I'm looking for redemption, but what you got was much richer and much better than any kind of redemption for your family line.

Suzanne Rico
00:46:05

Yeah. I just did not expect it.

Matt Gilhooly
00:46:08

Yeah.

Suzanne Rico
00:46:08

And it was.

Matt Gilhooly
00:46:09

And that's the best.

Suzanne Rico
00:46:10

Yeah, it was a benediction of sorts that he gave to me. And I feel, you know, like if he could. If he could understand, then certainly it was worth me trying to understand.

Matt Gilhooly
00:46:22

Did you feel different walking out of that interview?

Suzanne Rico
00:46:25

Yeah. I mean, Oscar and I have become friends. I just flew to St. Louis for his 94th birthday to celebrate that with him.

And it's interesting to me because not only do I do his story in the podcast, but I'm working on a project to tell the story of Oscar and me, of our friendship, because it's such an unlikely friendship. Right.

And so how I felt when I came away from that wasn't like the normal interviews that I usually do where I'm like, okay, I just interviewed, you know, the wife whose husband was just murdered or whatever. And now I can walk away and forget about it. I felt like, oh, my God, I have, like, new friends. And almost. It almost feels like family, you know?

Like, Oscar's wife always says, I'll be your mom. I'll be your mom. She's German, you know, so she says that. And I think to myself, I got this whole new dimension to my life.

Matt Gilhooly
00:47:26

And there's something to be said that. That you chose to do that, too, because I think a lot of people wouldn't choose to do that because they're. They're afraid. They're.

Suzanne Rico
00:47:36

I was so nervous, but that's so.

Matt Gilhooly
00:47:38

Strong of you to put that down and walk into that conversation. I mean, very well could have, like, you know, screamed at you, blamed you, done all these things.

Suzanne Rico
00:47:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:47:50

Rightfully so.

Suzanne Rico
00:47:50

I mean, yes. You know, you're freaking me out right now, honestly, because you're saying, like, things that I say to people, and I'm like, wait, how does he know?

Because I know you haven't listened to the podcast or spoken to me before, but I say that in my podcast because I'm waiting at his front door, and it's like, knock, knock, knock. Wait, wait, wait, wait. And the time is click. And I'm like, oh, my God, what is. Did he change his mind?

Is he gonna come out and be like, get off my front porch. And I say in there. And if he's still angry after all these years, rightfully so.

So, yes, I had a tremendous amount of fear and trepidation and anxiety leading up to that moment. And then as soon as he opened the door, he opened the door, and I looked at him, and I was like, oh, it's gonna be okay.

Like, I just saw it in his eyes. I saw it in his eyes that he did not harbor hate or resentment or anything toward me personally.

Matt Gilhooly
00:48:51

This journey of discovering and figuring out this map of your life and the lives that came before you, has it changed you?

Suzanne Rico
00:49:08

It has changed me. I think it's broadened my. Certainly my knowledge. Like, some people laugh because when we get to talking about World War II, I'm like.

Like Rain man or something. Like, I'm just like, oh, and then in 1939, and I've got these dates and that dates. And I mean, don't get me started on, like, the B.F.

109 warplane or the V1 flying bomb or the HE 280 turbojet. You know, it's like, I have all. So it's expanded my breadth of knowledge. Certainly my. My understanding and love of history. I'm obsessed.

I just think that history.

And by the way, you could sit here and tell me a little bit about your history, and I would ask you a thousand questions like, I want to know everybody's history because everybody has a story. Right. If you just dig a little bit in the. In the back of somebody's, you know, closet, you will find something worth talking about.

So in that way, it did. There's a little bit of a negative connotation to what I want my answer to be in terms of how it changed me. I feel like I'm a little bit more of a.

Not a fearful person, but I'm afraid of what's going to happen from this. Like, I describe it as.

I can feel this storm brewing out there now that my podcast is going to come out into the world, and I can't tell if that storm is going to be a beautiful storm or a terrible storm or maybe a combination of both. And so I don't love the anxiety that it's. That it's brought into my life because I'm.

When you have the blessing or the privilege of telling other people's stories, it's a big responsibility. And I feel that responsibility very, very heavily. And so it's changed me in a way of like, God, this is the most important thing I've ever done.

And what if I just let everybody down? What if I.

Matt Gilhooly
00:51:11

You haven't. Even before it comes out, you haven't. You've done the work. Yeah, I have done the work. You've done the work.

Not just saying that, like, you did work because you did work, but you did the work that so many people would choose not to do.

Suzanne Rico
00:51:27

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:51:28

So many people would walk away. That was in the past. Let's forget about that. We don't need to do it. You did the work, and it's a personal story.

It's not what you reported on the news before. Right. Like, this is something. You're connected. So I see the fear. I accept the fear. I. I see that you have this trepidation of it.

People aren't going to like it. People are going to love it. People are gonna, you know, like, they're. It's just how life goes. Right.

People aren't gonna love everything, but I think it's so important because you showed up when so many people wouldn't show up.

Suzanne Rico
00:52:01

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly
00:52:01

And I think, you know, you're. You're helping the world learn more. You're learning more in the process. So, yes, I hope it's a beautiful storm, but I think you did the work.

Suzanne Rico
00:52:13

We will see. I mean, you know, that's the interesting part, right? It's gonna come out. It's going to be what it will be.

And frankly, Matt, it doesn't do me much good to worry about what it's going to be because the wheels are in motion. So that's what I tell myself when I get really anxious about it.

I just say, you know, you've been working for years to let this fly and let it out of the nest and let it go where it needs to go. And hopefully my, my, my kind of deepest hope is that maybe it could be used as a learning tool.

Maybe it can be used as a learning for, for even for middle schoolers like to open their brought. Because World War II is not in color for, for middle schoolers or even high schoolers.

And I think maybe this can bring some of that, you know, to life for them so that they understand it.

Matt Gilhooly
00:53:04

Well, one thing you said, I, I hope it can be a learning tool.

My opinion of it, regardless of the topic, I think there is such a humanity learning tool in what you've done because I think people, whether they're interested in, in the actual story, will think differently about talking to their parents, will think differently about asking questions about their family history. But you know, like, I think that's going to encourage a lot of people to do similar things.

Maybe they're not going to go down the, the depths that you did, but maybe they're going to be more open with their family, you know, like. So I think there's a wider implication of what you're putting out into the world beyond just the story you're sharing, if that makes any sense.

Suzanne Rico
00:53:50

I hope so.

I hope that if anybody can, can go like, oh, I'm going to ask Grandma, you know, what it was like when she was a girl growing up in, you know, 1940s in the United States or wherever, Japan or, you know, what, whatever, like, what was it like? And I guarantee that answer will surprise you. You know, it's like they're.

And I just love older people because they do have so many great stories to tell. It's so cool.

Matt Gilhooly
00:54:21

Do you ever sit back and think about how this is going to be hard to word, but your mother's passing and your mother's cancer and your mother's end gave you this weird gift of this journey that you've been on since. Do you look at any of that weird silver line. It's really hard for me to say out loud, as you can see.

But do you see any of that as, like, almost like a gift that she left for you?

Suzanne Rico
00:54:56

Oh, huge. Huge. Absolutely huge.

It's such a huge gift because not only did my mom give me this tool to learn about my family ancestry, but it's something I can pass down to my kids. Right? And I don't think we ever really think about that. We're so busy with our.

With our lives and being parents or being kids or being workers or whatever we're doing that we don't really think about. Like, time will run out at some point to tell these stories and to pass them down.

My kids are almost 17 and 19, and they didn't know anything about their family ancestry.

And now, after years of listening to me putting this podcast together and talking about it, they talk about their great grandparents as if they know them. And by the way, it brings me no amount of. Of happiness and peace to know that when I'm gone, they can put that podcast on and hear my voice.

Matt Gilhooly
00:56:00

Yeah, they can put this podcast on.

Suzanne Rico
00:56:03

And they can put this podcast on, and they can hear my voice and your voice. And, you know, I think that, at least for me, Matt, as a mother, I just feel like it helps.

It's going to help me live on in their minds and lives and hearts, and my mom lives on in me. You know, they. They say that we only really die when no one remembers to say our name. And I think that is really true.

Matt Gilhooly
00:56:28

Yeah. Here. Here comes a weird statement from my head, but I think of, like, how I do this. You know, it's my podcast. I can do whatever I want.

Suzanne Rico
00:56:38

Exactly.

Matt Gilhooly
00:56:39

But, you know, you think of how your mother trickled out these stories to you in ways that were not full, they were not complete, they were not away. And I see that as such. Like.

Like, had she been really descriptive and had written everything out, you wouldn't have had this journey of understanding. As. As challenging as it was, this whole thing unfolded in such a way because your mother chose to do the things she did in the way that she did.

And I always love to, like, look like if that hadn't happened, all these other dots, we wouldn't be talking right now.

Suzanne Rico
00:57:17

Right? Well, that's.

I mean, the whole premise of your podcast are these, like, little life shifts, like, where we hit the fork in the road and how other people's forks in the road affect our forks in the road. And then, you know, it keeps going and going and going.

Matt Gilhooly
00:57:29

So fun to play that game.

Suzanne Rico
00:57:31

It is so fun. And I think to myself.

There's another aspect of that that I think is interesting to mention here is, you know, I was a newscaster and a reporter for a long, long time, but I have never done anything like this. I mean, I talked in a minute, 32 minute pieces packaged for the evening news or the morning News. This is nine episodes, 35 to 40 minutes an episode.

It is a sweeping epic that goes from 19, really, 1899 to United States in the 1950s with the space program. You know, it's this, it's an epic story. And I had to teach myself to tell that kind of story. I had to teach myself to edit. I had.

Because I did the rough cuts, I had to teach myself how to understand code and like crazy things that I never wanted to know before. And I. Probably half of it I still don't want to know.

But like, I came away from this with these skills that I would have never had if I hadn't done this project. And that to me, I'm like, okay, that's what we were talking about earlier in this podcast.

It's like the learning, the evolving, the, the, the coming to a different point in your life where you're like, God, I never thought I would be sitting here editing and I'm. Guess what, I'm a pretty damn good editor. That's cool.

Matt Gilhooly
00:58:53

No, it's, it's. I'm the same way. Like, I. If my mom hadn't died, we would not be having this conversation. I would not be the person that I am today.

I probably wouldn't be as empathetic. I probably wouldn't be able to ask questions, questions of people that maybe normal people shy away from. You know, like.

And so all these things, it's hard to say that, like, I'm grateful for the experiences because of this really challenging moment. And it's kind of the same for you, is like you had a really hard grief period.

But when you open that book and the light kind of shined on your face, like reading rainbow kind of thing, and like you were able to kind of like go into this new journey for yourself. What, what's the name of your podcast? I don't think we said it yet.

Suzanne Rico
00:59:32

The man who Calculated Death.

Matt Gilhooly
00:59:34

Well, there you go. That's gonna get a lot of downloads just cause of the name of it.

Suzanne Rico
00:59:38

The man who Calculated Death. Yeah, and it comes out November 6th on Wondery Plus.

Matt Gilhooly
00:59:43

That's awesome. So by the time this episode comes out, it'll have been out for a little bit.

Hopefully most of the episodes are out by now you are able to go on Wonder plus and check this out.

Suzanne Rico
00:59:52

Yes, I hope so. And so Wondery, I'll say this because it's coming out in January, but Wondery has a three month exclusive, exclusive on it.

And then it can go over to a free ad based, you know, where you have to listen to the ads, but it'll be free. So, you know, if you don't want.

Matt Gilhooly
01:00:07

To join, it'll still be out in some way.

Suzanne Rico
01:00:09

Yeah, it'll still be out in some way and you can, you know, follow along. And I have a website@themanhocalculateddeath.com where I have a lot of those archival materials that I'm going to be putting on as the episodes drop.

So, yeah, deep dive.

Matt Gilhooly
01:00:23

So I love to wrap up these conversations with a question.

And I'm wondering if this version of Suzanne sitting here talking about this, having completed the podcast, having, you know, wherever you are on that memoir piece, close if you, if you could go back to the Suzanne that was in the deep throes of that grief journey, can't really talk about your mom or read the book. You're looking for those signs. Is there anything you would want to tell her?

Suzanne Rico
01:00:58

I guess I would want to say that I didn't need to go as deep as I went. Like, I wish that I could have found some of what you talk about with your grandmother, which was a real beauty in a passing.

I think I could do that now, maybe because you do learn from it. But it was almost like I felt like I had to go that deep to honor my mom and to show her how much I loved her. And that is not the case.

So I've heard about people like you and I've heard about, you know, other friends have told me about, you know, sitting with parents and holding their hands as they go. And it's a really beautiful moment and they feel really, I mean, they grieve, but it's a much more positive experience than what I had.

So I would want to tell her, like, don't hang your hat on having to go that deep because she's with you, she loves you. You did everything you could do. You know, there were no regrets, there were no unanswered questions.

I got to, she battled cancer for nine months and we had all the conversations. We said everything we needed to say. And so I feel like I would say, you know, do your grieving and then, I don't know, accept it.

But then I think to myself, matt, well, maybe I needed to do that in order to get to where I am. You know, it's all this path that we're on that we can't see until we're. We're down the road. And then we look back and we go, oh.

Because if I had just sort of skipped off into the sunset, I probably wouldn't have gone.

Matt Gilhooly
01:02:47

You wouldn't open the book in the same way. You wouldn't have gone on that same journey. You know, I think it's interesting, but something you said.

I loved what you said about you don't have to go that deep. You don't have to prove that you're. You didn't say prove, but this is how I took it my own personally.

You don't have to prove that you're the saddest person ever or you're so distraught that you cannot function. Because I felt that way. I've done that in my journeys. I. For 20 years, trying to grieve my mom. I did it all wrong.

And I was like, oh, life sucks because my mom died. Or I got this promotion because my mom's dead. You know, like, it was just a lot of stupid things that I was doing to try to heal.

But I thought that was really profound, you saying, like, you don't. There's nothing to prove. You don't have to.

Suzanne Rico
01:03:35

You don't have to hang. Like, you don't have to hang your hat on the fact of your mother's death and, you know, have it color everything that you do for 20 years.

I'm sorry that it really took. It took you a long time. I feel maybe a little more grateful now that it only took me two. Well, I was a kid, so, yeah.

Before I came to a realization that, hey, it's okay. Like, you know, you're gonna be all right. It just didn't feel that way before, so. Yeah, I think that's part of what I would.

What I would say to other people that.

That have really difficult grieving experiences is, you know, you don't have to prove that you love them so much by going to such a horrible, dark space.

Matt Gilhooly
01:04:19

But also honor however you're feeling, you know, like. So if you do have those days, it's just part of the journey, and I think it's important to think about.

But thank you for that and thank you for sharing your story in this way and letting me ask weird question and that I loved.

Suzanne Rico
01:04:32

I loved your questions. You would. You would have been a great news person. Oh, thank you.

Matt Gilhooly
01:04:38

I can't do one and a half minutes. I got to go long no, Right.

If people want to connect with you or tell you their story, you know, or how your story touched them or listen to your podcast or how. What's the best way to get in your orbit?

Suzanne Rico
01:04:53

So the man who calculated death.com has a contact page, comes straight to me, so I will see everything that comes in there. It will also have links to the trailer and the episodes that bonus content. I have a who's who page.

So you can see pictures of like my grandfather and my mother and my sisters and all of. And my aunties. My aunties are awesome. So that is probably the best way. And I just actually am, you know, I just started that with, with this podcast.

And I hope the website becomes like a repository for other people's stories too.

Matt Gilhooly
01:05:25

It's awesome. Yeah. You know, are you on the socials? Can people find you in those places?

Suzanne Rico
01:05:28

Dan Rico on all of them. One word. S, U, Z A N N E R I C O.

Matt Gilhooly
01:05:33

Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing you and sharing your journey through grief and out of grief and doing the work that so many people might shy away from.

So we really appreciate it. I hope this storm is a beautiful storm that comes out for you.

Suzanne Rico
01:05:48

Knock on wood, right?

Matt Gilhooly
01:05:50

And if it's not. If it's not, that's okay, too.

Suzanne Rico
01:05:54

You know what? Duck and cover. Right?

Matt Gilhooly
01:05:56

Cover up your umbrella. Exactly. There's always another. There's always, you know, the grass is going to grow and all the things are going to come after that.

So I hope it's beautiful. But if it's not, that's okay too.

Suzanne Rico
01:06:06

Well, thank you. I really, really have enjoyed this. This is great.

Matt Gilhooly
01:06:09

Well, thank you for, for being a part of this and then everyone listening. Thank you for listening.

It just means a lot to me if someone that you know needs to hear Suzanne's story or might be inspired by Suzanne's story, we'd love it. If you share this episode with them and if you're feeling really excited, maybe go to Apple podcast, give me a little rating review.

Other than that, I will. Thank you, Suzanne. There you go. Follow Suzanne.

Suzanne Rico
01:06:32

You can review the man who Calculated Death at the same time.

Matt Gilhooly
01:06:35

Exactly. Go and do both of that. And with that, I'm going to say goodbye and I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks.

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.