Unmasking Identity: Transformation in Faith and Sexuality | Lindsey Leaverton

00:00
About 2009, we decided we're gonna tell her family, we're gonna tell her parents. They were like the hippie smoking, we accept everybody, you know, anyway, very open-minded. And my parents were at the time very fundamentalist and religious, so we thought we'll tell her parents, so we'll have somewhere to go for holidays. You know, I didn't know how my parents would react. And much to our surprise, that led to

00:29
her mom kind of outing me. So she called my dad at his office. You talk about that, you know, sometimes you get a phone call and it changes everything. I remember when my dad said, we need you to come over tonight. We need to talk to you about something. And when I went over there, he said, Jenny's mom called me at my office. So outed me to my parents and then outed me very publicly. And I had within three weeks,

00:57
I went from having probably 100 dates booked about a year and a half out to being unemployed. My guest this week is Lindsey Kane-Leverton. Her story runs a path of a thriving career within the evangelical contemporary Christian music industry to being outed by someone she thought she could trust and pretty much losing everything. Somehow, she held onto her faith and found her true self.

01:24
Lindsay was raised in the church and was deeply ingrained in the evangelical world. She toured the country, sharing her music and her faith, and she was fully immersed in this community that had clear and rigid beliefs about sexuality. This really presented a significant internal conflict as Lindsay grappled with her own sexuality and really the fear of losing her career and her faith and the community around her. But in 2009, she had quite a pivotal year.

01:54
It was a time of struggle with her identity, her faith, and acceptance. We'll talk about that in the episode today, but today Lindsay champions the idea that everything in life, even the worst of it all, is a gift. She shows the strength and acceptance and inspires others through her journey. So whether you're finding your own path, seeking understanding, or just in need of a good dose of inspiration, I think you'll like this one. Before we jump into the episode, I want to thank my

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friends and Patreon supporters, Nic, Gale, Sari, Bryan, and Trapper and Shane from Dream Vacations. All of you are supporting one episode a month, which is helping me cover the hosting costs and the production costs of doing this show. As I mentioned before, each episode takes about eight to ten hours to put together and release out. So any support is so greatly appreciated. And these individuals are supporting one episode every single month on the Patreon tier.

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So if you would like to directly support the show, please head to patreon.com slash the life shift podcast and you can find all the information there on all the different tiers and the things that I'm trying to do there. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Lindsey Kane-Leaverton.

03:10
I'm Matt Gilhooy, and this is the Life Shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

03:30
Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Lindsay. Hello, Lindsay. Hello, Matt. How are you? Oh, you know, we've been talking for a few minutes, so you know how I am with the people listening. That's right. That's right. That's the secret of podcasting, but I really appreciate you wanting to be a part of the show and share your story. And I was telling you before how healing this journey seems to be for me. So selfishly, thank you for what you're about to share.

03:57
Well, thank you for doing this and for having me on. I have a feeling that it will be healing for me as well. So, ready to get started. Well, I appreciate that. And we were talking a little bit before recording about how do we identify what our most pivotal moment is? And I mean, truthfully, as we go through the show, as I go through the life shifts, 129 episodes later, I know.

04:23
that there are a lot of life shifts in people's lives. And we can't really distill it down to one. But I also know that in my own life, there are some that maybe are more significant in a way that I am a totally different person from the before and the after. And so that's always my challenge, but I totally know that we have multiple life shifts as you do, as probably most humans do. Right, most humans over the age of eight with a heartbeat, maybe younger.

04:53
Yeah, mine started at eight. So I think I had one at eight, maybe one at 16, maybe one at 35. So they're all, I look back, I was talking to someone today, it was really interesting. We were talking about how we were looking back on the older version of ourselves, and recognizing them because it was us, but also, who is that person? Because I don't recognize that person at the same time. And so it was really interesting to think back

05:22
other versions of me knowing they're me, but also so not me. Same. I have, I, I feel like I get to that place on a regular basis, especially as I'm, you know, talking about different things from my past. Like that was me. I know that was me, but how is that possible? Right. And the decisions we made and you're like, why did I do it that way? And then we all just think, or hopefully we know.

05:47
that those were like protections, the way that we responded to things and the way we protected ourself as much as possible in some of the decisions we made. And so I give grace to those other versions of myself. I think that's important, as do I. Otherwise I would just die in a guilt shame spiral. Welcome to being an American. Exactly. So before we get into like the deep part of your story, perhaps you can just tell us a little bit about who Lindsay is right now in 2024 without giving too much away.

06:16
Yeah, so by day I'm the director of wealth management at a boutique financial planning firm in downtown Austin And i've got two kids and they're 11 year old twins The loves of my life two rescue dogs that are going to be moving in this video the whole time Which you can probably already see ellie up on the couch, which you know, she's not supposed to be on But i've just given up at this point

06:41
I have a blind rescue hedgehog, that's pretty fun. Just released my first book. I like to sing and write songs and serve on a couple boards for nonprofits. But other than that, I really like cheese, bourbon and trashy reality TV. Perfect, so you're not busy at all is what you're saying. You don't have much on your plate. I am so bored that I just wish somebody would give me a new project, you know?

07:11
If I could just fill my time a little bit more, yeah. But it's all good stuff. Yeah, no, I understand that. It's so interesting to how we see other people and like, how do you do all those things? How is it possible? But then when we start listing all the things that we do, we're like, oh wait, I guess I do the same thing. I get it, yeah. And I know I need to start saying no. The problem is I have this philosophy of like, if something's, and I did not make this up, so don't credit me, but if something's not a hell yes, it's a hell no.

07:40
Well, so much of what I said yes to, they're all hell yeses. And so now I'm having to do like an extra hell yes, you know, to, to not get too overwhelmed. Well, I can understand that. And hopefully you find the things that bring you the most joy and then you can sideline some of the things that only bring you minimal joy. Yes. Balance it out. I love that. That's the goal. Or trade them out. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. And I think I do, but it's interesting, always looking at all the plates spinning and I wake up in the morning and

08:10
I have to ask myself, okay, I'm gonna drop one of these plates or drop a ball, whatever metaphor you want to use. What's it going to be today? And be okay with that. And be okay with it and be okay with other people being disappointed because I'm not super woman. And I don't want to be. I think awareness is super important. Yeah. And as much as we're joking about this, there's also some serious nature to it in the sense of like, we have to have the self-awareness and know that we can't do everything and that's okay.

08:40
you know, and it shouldn't be expected of us. And sometimes we have to make those barriers and things to protect ourselves in that way too. Yep, you spot on. So maybe you can kind of paint the picture and lead us up to this first pivotal moment or maybe the main one, however you want to tell us your story. I think painting the picture of the before times maybe would be a great way to start. Yes, I love that. I love the way you phrase that. So I'm going to...

09:09
choose the pivotal moment which took my life from going down one path to going down a completely different path in every single way because I think that's the one that changed me the most. So in 2009 was a pivotal year. It was the hardest, well, the second hardest year of my life. And what happened before that, I was in full-time ministry. So I started playing guitar, writing

09:39
when I was 17 and I'd been into sports my whole life, but just got into music, taught myself how to play the guitar, kept doing shows and getting booked at certain events through college, recorded a couple albums in college, and had booked myself far enough in advance where after I graduated from college, instead of going and getting a teaching job, I kept touring. So for six years, I ended up.

10:06
traveling the country, parts of the world, singing, recording, performing, teaching at conferences, leading worship, anything that you can really imagine. I mean, prisons and you know, nursing homes and all kinds of different places and had a lot of incredible experiences. Problem was it was in evangelical contemporary Christian music industry. I was deep in that world.

10:36
Oh, not only like drinking the Kool-Aid, serving the Kool-Aid, making the Kool-Aid. Was this something you grew up in? Mm hmm. Yeah. So, I mean, I was in church in the womb and, you know, almost every day. Bible drill champion. Don't want to brag about that, Matt, but you're looking at the three time Bible drill champion from. I don't even know what that is. It's very sad that you put kids in a line and it's like a spelling bee, but they will say

11:07
1 Peter 2 14. And you have to recite it or they will say the verse and you have to recite the book and verse. So, yeah, fully bought in a very fundamentalist church. And so I was raised thinking that anything having to do with sex or sexuality is a sin and abomination. You know, I saved myself for marriage. I signed a purity pledge. I had a purity ring.

11:35
I just, I didn't drink until I was 26. You know, dancing was a sin. I mean, just a very intense. And even like the world around you wasn't like, nudging you to be like, wow. So it was really solid. Because in the town I grew up in, that's just kind of what you do. Everybody goes to church and we just happened to go to a church that was very black and white and.

12:02
you know, taking the Bible literally when it's convenient. And so when I went into full-time ministry after I graduated, I mean, I felt a very strong calling. I've always had a strong faith, even though a lot of my upbringing, I think was misguided. I bought into a lot of things that I do not believe at all now. So my faith has evolved tremendously. But while I was touring, I hired a tour manager who was also my drummer.

12:32
we ended up falling in love. You couldn't do that. You know, you can't be gay and have a relationship with God in the world that I was in. Okay, that was my first big brainwashing moment. And we were in the closet. We kept it secret. I had struggled with my sexuality since I can remember. I first came out to myself when I was 17 and literally said in my head after

13:00
wanting to kiss my best friend one night. I said, oh shit, I think I'm a lesbian. And that was not an option for me. That was not something you could do as a quote Christian. So my tour manager and I fell in love and it started a journey, a very painful journey of reconciling my faith with my sexuality. That journey had started before I met Jenny, but.

13:27
This was really when I realized, okay, I'd tried ex-gay therapy. I had tried listening to CDs and fasting and praying and having people pray over me so I would be delivered. So when you say you don't even recognize yourself from the past, I feel that way. I was very homophobic and I would have told you, I would have been the first to tell you that being gay is a sin and that gay people are going to go to hell. So this, it's embarrassing. I have a little bit of shame even now as I talk about it.

13:57
Uh, just for... I mean, I think you were conditioned in the sense of like, that's all you knew and that's what all the people around you were saying. But I can't imagine, and I think that more people than we want to admit can feel this way, but like how you can feel a certain way and you know you, who you are inside, but also everything that you've been taught and everything you think you believe goes against who you are or who you feel you are. So much so.

14:27
that you want other people to help change you from who you know you are. I can't imagine what that battle must feel like. Well, it led to me wanting to not live another day in the middle of college, which happens to a lot of LGBTQ plus folks at just astronomically more numbers. So we decided, okay, I've got to somehow get out of ministry.

14:55
I can't keep doing what I'm doing and being in the closet. I was getting very sick because holding a secret like that, you know, touring and I was doing about 200 dates a year and I would sing in front of, let's say thousands of people and I would go up on stage after the speaker just gave an anti-gay sermon. Like that just kills you a little bit, kind of death by a thousand cuts. Were the songs that you were doing, were they also kind of like anti-you?

15:24
Did you feel like you were projecting a message that wasn't necessarily you? No, no, I picked songs, well, because I wrote songs, so, you know, when I would perform my songs. Did you have any masking in them? Oh, 100%. Lots of masking. Good for you, though. Lots of, yeah, if you go back and listen, it's interesting to go back and think about the old albums, but it was, you know, I just realized this can't continue, so.

15:52
About 2009, we decided we're gonna tell her family, we're gonna tell her parents. They were like the hippie smoking, we accept everybody, you know, anyway, very open-minded. And my parents were at the time very fundamentalist and religious, so we thought we'll tell her parents, so we'll have somewhere to go for holidays. You know, I didn't know how my parents would react. And much to our surprise, that led to

16:22
her mom kind of outing me. So she called my dad at his office. You talk about that, you know, sometimes you get a phone call and it changes everything. I remember when my dad said, we need you to come over tonight. We need to talk to you about something. And when I went over there, he said, Jenny's mom called me at my office. So outed me to my parents and then outed me very publicly. And I had within three weeks,

16:50
I went from having probably a hundred dates booked about a year and a half out to being unemployed. So it took about three weeks for the news to travel. I wasn't super famous, but that's a small world. You know, it's a small circle and I was traveling with a large Christian organization and she also called the head of that organization. And so it...

17:15
It turned into, I thought I would have this really nice, neat coming out journey and I would slowly, you know, divest from my commitments into ministry and go get a teaching job, that's what my degree was in. And really overnight, everything changed. And I was, you know, cyber bullied, CDs pulled from stores back when CDs used to be a thing, you know, back in the dark ages. And songs pulled from radio.

17:43
It was just a, it was the worst of times and the worst of times. It was like a slap in the face because you were going to people that you thought were possibly safe, like a, a soft landing, if you will, like. And it was more of a crash and burn and then burn all the plane pieces and then throw them into the river. Yeah. And do you have any sense of like, why it unfolded in that way? Were they part of the same community? Not at all.

18:12
Not at all. Had never been in church. Have since become very involved in evangelical Christianity. I think it comes down to it's easy to accept people when it's not in your family. But the homophobia ran deep and, you know, they pretty much cut her off. Meanwhile, my parents were incredible. Blew my mind. Wow. They were not like...

18:41
Yay, we love that you're gay. Let's go march in a pride parade. But they held space for me and loved me because I lost all my family. My brother didn't talk to me for five years. I lost almost all my friends. So really, it was just me and Jenny and my parents. And one phone call, really. I mean, or one decision to go somewhere that you thought was safe. And it blew up in your face, which, which.

19:08
I could imagine any time moving forward past that, anything that feels safe feels also scary at the same time because the one time you trusted something really big, because this was the first time you were like, no, this is actually me. All the other parts were partly me. I was masking or I was doing what I was supposed to do or what I knew everyone around me wanted to do. And they clearly wanted you to do that if they were the ones that first just.

19:34
disconnected from you and pulled you away from the world completely. It was shocking. It was absolutely shocking. And even though that was in 2009, I mean, I'm sure you can relate to this, but a part of it feels like it was yesterday. And then another part of me feels like that was a different life. And I don't even, I'm writing a story about someone else's life. It's really interesting.

20:01
Yeah, do you ever, and this is gonna sound really bad, so people listening don't think I'm a jerk for saying this, do you ever look at that moment as like, there's something good that came from it because it like freed you from the shackles of what you were allowing for yourself or what you were creating in the world that you were in? If there was a bigger word than a thousand percent, I would use it. Yes, it doesn't sound bad at all. That is what my...

20:29
my life's work has been since that moment was how to find gifts in the midst of all of life's shit. Everything that life throws at you, everything that you encounter. I'm not saying everything happens for a reason. I don't believe everything happens for a reason. I believe some things happen and then we can give reason to the horrible thing that happened. So when I look back on it, I have zero anger, zero resentment. I have forgiven

20:59
her, you know, not to her face, because we have no contact, but I've done that forgiveness work, and I am so thankful. She did me a great service. Because, Matt, I don't know if I could have really walked away on my own. It was my identity, it was my job, it was my ministry, it was my entire life. And I don't know if I could have actually walked away.

21:28
metaphorically rip the bandaid off. Yeah, more like a guillotine, like a beheading of sorts. No, I love both word pictures. But the bandaid will keep your head together. I think, you know, because by ripping off those pieces versus a guillotine, that's a little, I mean, yes, I'm sure it felt that way, but you were able to exist still. And then the gift that you somewhat describe, the gift of your parents not responding in the way that you probably were so afraid they were going to do that from the age of 17 on.

21:58
Right? Like I would imagine that that was a fear that if your parents ever found out, then what? And the fact that your parents maybe weren't, you know, like kumbaya moment, but also not get out, you no longer belong here. No, they- I think that's a blessing too. It was such, such a blessing. And they are just some of the most, you know, incredible people. We're very close to this day. I was talking to them right before this actually.

22:26
There was this moment in 09, it was kind of that three week period between, oh, everybody knows and you know, what am I going to do for a living? This is all I'd ever done. My resume was very sad looking. And I was just having a really low night and my parents came over and brought me ice cream. It sounds like something really small, but they just sat with me. I remember eating just vanilla ice cream.

22:55
nothing even remotely special, but to me it meant everything. That they were there and they didn't feel like they had to choose between their faith and loving their daughter well. And, you know, that to me, I've never forgotten that. Yeah, it's the little things, it's the little moments of love that like maybe in a quote-unquote normal situation, we would dismiss as just like whatever moments, but when you're in deep despair...

23:23
every little thing matters. You know, like, I feel like that is a beautiful sense of love because maybe also, maybe they didn't have the words, maybe they didn't have certain, you know, things to help you in the way that maybe they wanted to. And that was like a little gesture to kind of show you that they still love you and care for you. Yep, yeah, there's that quote that when words fail, music speaks, but I think when words fail, ice cream and cheese can also speak.

23:52
And bourbon now. And bourbon, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. What was the time period in which you maybe were starting to operate in a way that felt fully authentic to you? Where you could exist in the world without the shame that you probably brought along with you and all the fake masks and things that you felt that you had to put on? Was the time period that it took you to get to stepping outside your house fully you?

24:22
I think I would have to say still in 09, after three weeks of being unemployed and not having any other income, I was at, I don't know, a coffee shop trying to figure out what my next move was. I'd interviewed at some schools for teaching positions, but one of my high school friends was at this coffee shop and we reconnected and I ended up going to interview to be a server at a seafood restaurant.

24:50
That was the door that opened, so I walked through it. And I never thought I'd be waiting tables at that age with a college degree and having been on my own for a while. But in that moment, I needed to do something to make a living. And in that space, it was kind of the back half of 2009, going into 2010, I showed up at that job fully myself. And people knew I was gay.

25:20
and people knew that I also sang and I didn't have to hide. I felt very awkward. Don't get me wrong, I didn't just come out and all of a sudden I'm wearing a rainbow flag and driving a Subaru. But I just remember showing up every day to that job as myself, even though I was making less than minimum wage, cleaning up breadcrumbs off the carpet, it was this healing time for me to try to put on

25:49
my full self and bring my whole self to work. And then that gave me the strength and I think courage to then bring that into every area of my life. Still to this day, I sometimes even get a little bit uneasy when I think I'm going to have to come out. You know, like if clients said, what's your husband do? I know I'm about to have a moment and it might be a thing. And that's still hard. But I tell you what, ever since

26:18
working at that restaurant and there was a lot of LGBTQ people on staff and I just felt I felt free. I think because I had been so humbled. There was I could not go down any more than I had. Was it weird to you when people were like, so what? Like, I don't care. Like when they knew you were gay, like, so what? Yes. Yes. I like wait, wait a second. Is everybody gonna throw it like am I being stoned? Wait, you're

26:46
fine with that? Wait, you're hitting on me? Okay, because you think I'm cute? Wait, wait, what's happening? It was, it was surprising and weird and wonderful. It was all the things all at once. But there was a little bit of shock, you know, because I would, if I felt comfortable, I would, you know, tell somebody about my, my wife or partner, you know, at the time. Now,

27:12
I think because I fully surround myself with people who are, you know, affirming and progressive, so I don't hear a lot of the negative anymore. But yeah, it was a culture shock. Everything was a culture shock, though. I was in full-time evangelical Christian ministry. Yeah. How did you manage that? How did you manage the... Was it a complete exit from your faith and you had to rebuild it in your own way? Or did you find a way to stay in that space?

27:43
manipulate your faith in a way that made sense for you. Gosh, that, how much time do we have? No, I'll try to keep it concise. Because I know people, sometimes they run all the way away and then they have to build from nothing. But then some people can stay and do what they need to do. For me, my faith even from a young age was so real that it wasn't just a religion or a set of beliefs. Like I genuinely had very,

28:12
profound experiences with the divine, God, love intelligence, source, universe, whatever name or word, I don't think that's really material, but it was that essence, the divine whatever, I had this connection to. And so I completely left the religious piece of it. I left that brand of faith. I wouldn't necessarily even to this day call myself a Christian.

28:41
because my beliefs have evolved so incredibly much. I had to lose the God of my youth to find out who is my higher power. In 12-Step Work, they mention the God of my understanding. It's like, it's a power greater than yourself that can restore us to sanity. And for me, that was this very personal relationship with God, with my higher power.

29:10
So that increased and was strengthened exponentially because I was finally able to pull away all the crap, the clobber passages from the Bible that were constantly used against folks like me. The Bible in general, this construct of beliefs, most of which I'd been told, but God...

29:37
interacted with me such a way through all of this that my faith became so much stronger. It just looks completely different. Did your parents adjust as you were going through this? Because I can imagine that so much of what they knew about you was also tied into the church and who you were, but also they probably knew a little bit about who you were that you were still hiding anyway. But then when you start to develop your own...

30:06
faith outside of them? Did they come along with you or were you able to kind of manage that gap? You know, my parents and I, we have a very healthy live and let live philosophy. So you do you, I'll do me. I don't want to hear, I don't want to, you know, I don't want my mind to really be changed on these core issues. You don't want your mind to

30:35
you don't want me coming to you with, you know, here's X, Y, and Z, why I'm right and you're wrong. It always was just about agree to disagree. I continue to pursue my faith. They continue to pursue their faith. They have come a long way. Like they, they had a coming out journey. And, you know, when you're a evangelical parent of a LGBTQ kid, a lot of the times you think you have to make a choice between your faith and your kid.

31:03
Thankfully, they left the church they were at. They actually ended up starting a ministry that they had for about eight years for parents of LGBTQ plus kids. Look at that. That are, you know, Christian parents to choose to love their kids and not completely disown them. So it's interesting though. It feels like a weird space. It is a very weird space, but we focus on our common ground.

31:33
which is even though our gods and our faith and our beliefs might look different, at the core of it, it's about loving and being loved. Yeah, I think it's a weird space only because the things that you were probably doing in your life and enjoying in your life and existing in your life were proving some of the things that they have been taught their whole lives were wrong, and you were living in love and people surrounding you. And so I can imagine...

31:56
seeing all the things you told were wrong, but then seeing someone live in their light and being really confused, right? Like that's really weird to see something but know something on your other side. So that's what I meant about weird. Like just, like, how do you hold both? Because sometimes you lie. I mean, I didn't mean to say that, but yeah.

32:20
You kind of convince yourself that one thing is one way, and then that thing can exist by itself, even though it contradicts everything that I say I believe. Yes. There was one time I got to start leading worship a little bit at an open and affirming church here in Austin called Austin New Church. It's a wonderful, wonderful place. Never thought I'd step foot back into a church, much less lead worship, you know? But this church has just meant the world to me. And my parents came one Sunday, this was a few years ago, before COVID.

32:49
and I led worship. And my parents just, I think, cried through the whole thing and then afterwards were at lunch. And my dad was like, I've never still to this day, I've never had anyone lead me in worship and help me feel so connected to God like you do. And I could tell he was having that

33:19
scripture, it talks a lot about the fruit and we judge, you know, the kind of the root by the fruit. If you get a bad root, you get bad fruit. Good root, good fruit. And a lot of people in Christianity would say, I'm a bad fruit. I have bad roots as, you know, someone born gay and living my true self. They, a lot of those folks would say, well, you're going to have bad fruit.

33:46
Well, that's the opposite of what has happened. And my parents have seen that. And I think it's really still hard for them. Yeah, I would imagine so. I think when you're so ingrained in something and it's hard to break about. Like you said, had that phone call not been made, I think your journey would look so different because you probably would have fought really hard with yourself until a bad thing happens or you continue on.

34:15
pretending to be, you know, I think it's really difficult. And so, I mean, good on your parents for coming a little bit at a time. Yeah. That's amazing. They've done great, been super supportive. And it was, I don't want to make it sound like it was this short journey that I went on to reconcile my faith with my sexuality. I mean, it has been a multi-decade journey. And I finally just realized, well, what is the truth about me?

34:43
not what a pastor says or not what a Sunday school teacher says, not what my parents say, not what I've been told the Bible says. Who am I? Who is Lindsay? At the very core of me and thankfully after a lot of work and years, I finally accepted myself fully and I now think it's my superpower. I love being gay. Being you.

35:09
Being me? Well, I mean, just being you is your superpower. Exactly. All of it is your power. And I think so many, I think people can relate to this in all sorts of ways in society, that society has told people that they have to be a certain way, whatever that might be, and whatever we absorbed, and we're just like, okay, well, this is the only way to be successful, or this is the only way to be happy, or this, you know, like all these things that we've assumed. And I think, I've talked to other people about this, like, I feel like the pandemic was this like,

35:38
almost like a reset in a way that people were kind of forced to sit at home and think about their life and like, am I going in the direction that I want to? Am I surrounding myself with the people that matter most to me? You know, all these things. And I think as we emerge a little bit, I think more people are in tune with themselves and kind of leading from me versus leading from like what other people want of me. Yes. I think you explained that beautifully. I wish I would have been writing that down.

36:08
This is being recorded so I can go back and listen. Oh, I forgot to press record. No, I think. No, you didn't. No, I didn't. No, I think it's important to hear your story, though, because I don't know. I feel like so many people expect when something big like that happens in your life that a week later, you're good. You know, like all's well. But it's a long journey. You know, even in my own sense, when I was a kid, my mom died when I was eight. I didn't.

36:38
actually finish, I say finish, people don't like that I say that, but I didn't really close the door on grieving my mom until maybe like early 30s. And so, like you, decades of time in which either I was pushing it to the side, I was using it as a crutch, I was, whatever I was doing with it, and I think it was all part of my healing journey in some way, but it took 20 years to grieve someone I only knew for eight.

37:06
You know, and so it's a very weird thing. And so I think sometimes people that haven't experienced these things are like, well, you know, like, why didn't she just move on? Like, yeah, just get over it. It was just her job. It's not a big deal. Well, and the question I get even more is why do you even have a faith? Like screw the whole God thing, you know, and. But I think people don't understand that there's a difference between faith and religion. Oh gosh.

37:35
Yeah, that's 100% correct. My faith is what got me through all this. God's quote people are, you know, Christians with a lower KC. They might have been horrible and rejected, you know, me and whatever, but that wasn't anything I ascribed to my higher power. I think it's important. I think people are evolving their faith now, too, and I think there are people that will always be in the extreme.

38:03
I think there are always going to be people that are, I need the rules and this is all I'm gonna do and they're only gonna be the rules that apply to me and then I'll ignore the rest kind of people as well to make themselves feel better. So I think that's always gonna be something but I'm so happy to hear that you found a space where you're just like, I love me. Like, cool. This is me. Yep, absolutely. Like this is me. What did, like how did your...

38:29
career evolve? Because like, I mean, you're in wealth management now, but also you just wrote a book and like, how does all this come from that? Great question. So the night, so New Year's Eve, going from 09 to 2010, I just prayed, look, I I'm cool with the waiting tables thing. I'll bloom where I'm planted, but I'd really love my next step in life. You know, what is that going to look like?

38:58
I had no idea. I mean, I really had no clue. I was pretty much open to wherever I was supposed to end up. And so the next day, New Year's Day 2010, senior, you know, executive from a large bank sat in my section. And after about five minutes, she just starts recruiting me. Like, who are you? What? Why are you here? What's your story? Do you have a degree? Are you a quick learner?

39:26
I was like, yes. And she goes, I want you to come work for me. And I said, no, that sounds incredibly boring. Banking sounds like the worst thing I could imagine in my life besides being- Are there free samples? Oh, no. There's not free samples of money. At the bank? Nothing, nothing at all. And she kind of stayed on me. And I'm so grateful for that because I ended up going through the interview process. Never thought I was going to get the job. Because again, my resume was...

39:56
very thin, right? Graduated from college and then was a singer and then a waitress. Ended up getting the job and that was 2010. Worked my way up from, you know, banker to business banker to branch manager and then started getting recruited into the wealth management space. So got all my financial licenses, designations and was asked to start a private bank for a smaller

40:25
And then from there, I was recruited to the firm I'm at now. I've been here almost six years and I love it. I just it's like building puzzles. I get to help these incredible people with things that matter the most to them. You know, do you see parallels between what you're doing and wealth management to the people you needed around you at the time when you were kind of lost? I just feel like as a wealth manager, you're helping people. Like you said that.

40:55
in the space that they need help the most, right? In those planning. And you needed someone the most to help you through that muddy water. And so like, I automatically saw like, how you're helping like that younger version of Lindsay in a different situation, but also in a parallel. I love that. Cause I've seen the parallels from being in ministry and feeling like I was helping people and having this impact and helping people move through some of the worst trauma in their lives.

41:24
through music and storytelling and humor. I love making people laugh, but I'd never made that parallel. I have never made that parallel that you just made. And you're absolutely right. It happened to me today, in fact, as you were just saying that hit me between the eyes. I met with a client today who is going through her pivotal moment. There's gonna be life before this and then there's life after it. And I sat with her for an hour today. We had the Kleenex box out.

41:54
She was crying and we didn't really talk a lot about money or financial planning. It was it was me being able to support her and join her in her pain, which is something that I desperately needed. So thank you for making see I'm the one healing today. That was a huge aha moment for me. You just never know. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that. I think that there's so much value that.

42:22
I think sometimes we just see things as jobs, or we see things as careers, and we don't realize the impact that we're doing or why we were drawn to it. Even in the sense of getting into the money space, the banking space, that woman, she saw you for you. She saw you with all you had, even if it wasn't a lot, in your mind, because you were just working at a restaurant.

42:48
You were just like, oh, well, this is just what I can do now. But she saw the whole you. And she was like, you know, like, let's go. Let's go, lady, because I know where you're going to end up. And we're still close to this day. And I write about her in the book and she's amazing. Dear, dear friend. Yeah. So I I love it. And, you know, I have enough flexibility to be a single mom of of two kids and.

43:16
The flexibility is the most important. And then, you know, it also allows me to have that creative outlet because to me, building a financial plan is really not that different than writing a song. Or writing a book. Or writing a book, exactly. Yeah. How did that come about? Oh, so I've always written. I've always loved journaling. And any time I get.

43:40
inspired or feel like I get a download of something that might be inspirational for me or others, I've always written it down. And so I've been compiling all this writing, not for any particular purpose, but just because. And toward the beginning of COVID, probably March 2020, I was meditating and there was this just clear picture that came through regardless of what it looked like or sound like or how you want to name it.

44:10
but it was a clear message of, it's time to write the book, Lindsay, it's time. I'd wanted to for many years, but just time and bandwidth, it wasn't possible. I didn't know what it was gonna turn into. I didn't really know what it was gonna be about, but I just started without the end in mind. I took the first step, and then I kept writing and took the next step, and it took me three years to write the book. I would work on it for one weekend every quarter.

44:40
I would leave everybody and I would lock myself in an Airbnb for two and a half days and I would write for sometimes 14, 15 hours a day. And writing the book allowed me to survive COVID. The pivotal moment that was even more impactful than 2009 is something I'm going through right now, which is why this is also fascinating to talk about the book because I finished writing the content.

45:10
you know, two years ago, because the editing process was almost a full year, so maybe a year ago. And I'm being healed by my own words because of where I am today. This book was the medicine. I'm going through a very difficult divorce. Yes, it will be my second divorce. I will have two ex-wives, which I don't think a lot of people can say that. But our family was impacted

45:39
majorly by mental illness toward the beginning of COVID. And writing the book was how I escaped and kept sane and was able to still be a good mom and try to show up for my kids. Finding gifts, that's what the book's about. And I think writing it was the only way I was able to survive. And do you look at that book now when you read it? Do you read it now and see?

46:06
those moments through there? Do you see like a healing in yourself or does it give you some kind of, because you said it's your medicine. Is it your medicine now or was it your medicine just then? Both. Yeah. Writing it was the medicine because I needed to get stuff out and then the ways and the tools that I used to survive, all those tools, actionable tools that you can implement in your own life, made it into the book. So writing.

46:35
about all of that just settled that seed deeper into my heart. So as I was going through it and still am going through this difficult season, I don't see things the same already. Even in the midst of the crap, I already can tell that my paradigm has shifted. I have reframed my relationship with pain in all its forms. I think the most interesting thing, though, was reading the book for the

47:05
audiobook. So I recorded it myself and and read it myself and that was the first time I'd read from cover to cover because you know your editing processes it took a year you know six layers of editing we had to get it down from 262 000 words to 90 000. Oh wow. So by the time the editing was finished things had changed dramatically in my life.

47:33
And so the book content was, some of it's not up to date. And as I'm reading the audible or the audio book, which will be, I don't know, out in a couple of months or something, reading my own words, for the most part, it was balm to my soul. It was very healing. But there were moments, Matt, where I had to read things that I'd written and they did not age well. And that was really, really hard.

48:01
And I did not necessarily enjoy that part of it. Yeah, but you probably grew from it in some way. Yes. I think there is a weird value. There's a weird, I don't know, I don't know if satisfaction is the right word, but we can see our healing or we can see our movement over time and go, OK, I see how that's worked. And I see how I can move forward with that. Do you look at?

48:28
I know writing that during those weekends in the Airbnb, which seems very Hallmark-esque of you to do, and run off to the woods and get in an Airbnb and write a book. But do you think that that version of Lindsay was writing the book for this version of Lindsay at all? I do. I like the way you said it better. I usually do better writing than I do talking. But I've said...

48:56
that I wrote the book that I needed at the time. And I thought that it was that I needed at the time I started writing it, but it is also the book and the truths that I need right now. That happened to me with songs. I've written a bunch of songs and my favorite songs are the ones that I wrote for other people thinking, this is gonna encourage someone, da da da. And then all of a sudden, one day I'm singing it and I realize...

49:24
I'm singing it to myself because that's what I need in that moment. That's so, so powerful. There's a power of story, power of words, the power of music, and even in your faith and all the things that you're bringing together as this version of you where you can live out loud and you can tell people that this season is hard. Because I would imagine that earlier in your life, everything had to appear.

49:53
like everything was okay, that life was okay. And life is hard. Life is not easy, you know? And especially if you wanna live it with people around you, they also have ups and downs and we have ups and downs and we have to like navigate this and be okay in all the situations, even if it sucks, even if it sucks so bad, we have to acknowledge that and kind of like work with it. Yeah, one thing that I don't know where it is in the book, but I talk a lot about how you don't have to like

50:23
the situation that you're in, but you do need to like yourself in the situation. So I can absolutely hate whatever situation I'm in right now, but when I wake up, look myself in the mirror, when I go to bed, lay my head down on my pillow, how do I feel about how I'm showing up in the world and showing up in the situation? That is crucial. I don't always get it right, but I try. Because you're human. Right, I know. You know, I think we can't...

50:52
We're never perfect. We're perfect, but we're perfectly imperfect, I guess maybe is the best way to look at it. No perfection allowed. Right, but we were so conditioned growing up that we have to be perfect. Like we have to fit some kind of mold. And even now, like a lot of people that maybe lose someone later in life, they'll come to me like, oh, like I'm the pro because I've lost two people really close to me, two basically moms. And they're like, what do I do? And I was like, I can't tell you what to do.

51:20
you have to go through this journey on your own. But the one thing I do tell them is like, be okay with however you are feeling at any moment in time because all of it's valid. If you're happy at one moment when you feel like you should be sad, that's okay. You're just like being a human and you're moving through the emotions. And I love that even though you are in a darker season right now, or there are darker moments in this season of your life, you're still looking at yourself in the mirror and saying,

51:48
Good on you for showing up and being the best version that you can be at this moment. Yeah, I try for sure. And me and my kids, we have a no perfection rule in this house and our family. It's like you can't do perfect. You can't even strive for it. It'll ruin you. So yeah, I'm trying to pass that on. Good on you for raising those two. Yeah, I think that's important and letting them be their own people. I would imagine that you know how to guide them. They are.

52:18
Right? I try, I certainly do. And I think I'm doing a pretty good job because now they're starting to say the things I've been teaching them for 11 years, but it's coming back to bite me in the butt, right? Well, that's okay. Which is fine. You know, like picture day? Like, okay, Annabelle, you cannot, you can't wear that or look, you know, can we brush the hair? A lot of the times they look like they just walked out of a, you know, I don't know, zombie movie.

52:47
and they hit it right back. I feel beautiful. As long as I feel good about, this is me. This is what I wanna look, they shut me down. Am I okay? I mean, that's part of being kids, but also you're allowing them the space that you didn't have as a kid. You're allowing them, like life is messy. I'm trying to. It is messy and it's beautiful. And then it's messy again and it's beautiful.

53:15
and joy and sorrow are inextricably linked and there will never really be one without the other. Right, I don't think you can really know one without the other. I don't think you can know the true value of one without the other, unfortunately. And you know, early on when I asked, you know, like, do you look at that moment when that phone call came through is like there's some silver lining of some sort in there. It's even true of like, people were like, if you could go back in time, would you change things? And I'm like,

53:42
Knowing who I am now, it sounds terrible to say that I wouldn't go and like, I don't want my mom to die, but at the same time, I would not be this person. I would not be this version of me. And all the things that I like about my life right now would not even exist, you know, because I know that my life would have been totally different. So, you know, it's interesting to look back at those moments and weirdly feel that way. It is. And to think about just the role that writing has always played

54:12
music has played, even when I wasn't playing guitar, writing songs, I loved music. I grew up listening and being obsessed with music and also doodling and coloring. And so in between each chapter, I have a coloring book page, like an adult coloring book page I created, so that before you go on to the next chapter, you're able to doodle, let what you just read settle a little bit.

54:40
And then I have a QR code that takes the reader to one of my original songs that aligns with the chapter. So it's I really wanted there to be this kind of multimedia experience, not just some book you get through, because that's what we do with books. No, there's a healing element to it. There's all the touch points of your healing journey that you're allowing people to go through, through your words, through your songs, through creativity in those pieces. I love to kind of

55:09
bring these conversations to an end with a question. And I'm wondering if you could go back to Lindsay, who you were about to approach your girlfriend's parents and tell them the story. Is there anything you want to tell her based on who you are now? Is there anything you would want to tell her?

55:32
I think trust your gut. I almost feel like there's nothing to add to that, but I want to because that's me not being concise. Trust your gut, whether that's your spiritual self inside you or your soul or whatever, that North Star, that anchor, no matter what happens, no matter how bad it feels, trust your gut and

56:03
I would tell her, don't give up before the miracle. Hold on, just trust me, don't give up before the miracle. Because it probably felt really hopeless at that time. Like, we're gonna try this thing and we're gonna see if it's a soft landing. You're gonna find out it's not. But at the end of the day, this version of Lindsay exists because of that moment. That's why I will never go back. We were like, oh, are you...

56:32
how have you ever forgiven her mom? Like, it has nothing to do with her mom. She was a, she played a role. She played a very important role. And I owe her a thank you note. She's the reason why I was able to finally step out and be fully myself. And that was the freest I've ever felt. And I've just continued to feel more freedom. So no, I don't, I really don't think I would have changed anything, which is-

57:02
feels crazy to say. It feels crazy to say. And it's so interesting that your most eventual freeing a moment came from something that she was probably trying to, she was scared. And she didn't want to be the only one that felt like that, so she wanted to push that off on someone else and kind of spread that so that she was protecting herself. And it all comes out to this. And at the end of the day, you win. Not that there's a competition, but.

57:30
you win because now you know yourself more than you ever probably would have or it would have taken you a long way to get there. You know, so way too long. I don't have all that time. So yeah, I need it to be really sudden and kind of aggressive. Probably worked out the best for me. You got it. So if, if people want to like check out your book or they want to get in your orbit or connect with you, what's the best way that they can find you and be in your space?

57:55
Oh, I would love that. So probably the best place is nota That's the title of the book, nota I do a monthly newsletter, so I don't spam you or anything, but throw your email address in there. I'm doing an interview series with some incredible women that I release monthly throughout the year, a podcast tour, you know, that's where you can find all of the social media stuff. I'm not famous, definitely not an influencer, but Lindsay Kane-Leverton.

58:25
I think is Facebook and Instagram, but go to the website. And then I would love for them to get the book. If you don't like it, it makes a good coaster. You can start a fire with it, but it was an Amazon best seller. So that was something I'm learning to celebrate. And it just sounds really self-serving, but my people are telling me, hey, we worked really hard for that. So you can tell people it's an Amazon best seller.

58:54
Yeah, you worked really hard for that. You had to go through your life to get to this point. So celebrate that. You had to go through all the ups and downs and the healing and the tearing apart and all the pieces that made you you. And so honored to know you in this way. And we will share the link so people can easily connect with you and not have to jot it down real quick. They can just click on it in the show notes and get connected with you. So thank you for just being you and sharing your story in this way. I really appreciate you.

59:22
Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you. You just, I feel like you're my brother from another mother. There you go. Maybe we are. I don't know. We'll have to look at our family trees and see if there's any kind of connections there. If you are listening and something that Lindsay shared today resonates with you or you think someone in your circle that might need to hear that episode, please share with them. We would be so honored. And check out Lindsay's book. Buy it. Use it as a coaster. Read it. Doodle in it. Do all the things.

59:51
And with that, I will say goodbye and I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks again, Lindsay.