Transcript
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One of the things I love about our team is we
love to argue.
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This team argues every day about lots of
things.
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We have really strong relationships with one
another.
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It's never personal, but we have strong
intellectual disagreement around whether it's
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parts of the market, asset allocation, whether
we should hire a manager, whether we should
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make a co investment or a direct investment,
what our growth assumptions are in something.
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Even silly things like where our margin for
being right or wrong might be like 50 to 48 or
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something, whether to hedge FX or something.
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But we debate those sorts of things deeply.
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We use a framework called beta factors.
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Everything is either equity credit, interest
rates, cash, real estate or commodities.
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Equity is just equity, public or private.
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Credit is just loans or packages of loans to
operating businesses or projects.
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Real estate, just land and buildings on it.
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Cash is what it sounds like.
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Interest rates are just loans to government,
and then commodities are basically things you
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could set on fire or drop on your foot.
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So everything falls into that.
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What were your learnings in 2022?
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You joined University of Illinois two and a
half years ago as a new CIO.
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Tell me about the history of the University of
Illinois.
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So the University of Illinois Foundation, which
is the entity that employs me, it's about a
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$2,900,000,000 endowment.
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We're in the loop in Chicago, with the staff
here, about 12 of us.
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And you came to University of Illinois.
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You're at University of Florida, NYU,
Vanderbilt.
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You've been at some great endowments.
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When you came two and a half years ago, what
changes did you make, and what did you keep the
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same?
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So you might imagine there's been meaningful
turnover in the portfolio.
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You know, we built a team.
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And, you know, with the changes we made inside
the portfolio, it's been on in public markets
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and private markets, but our most immediate
impact was certainly in the public market side.
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And, you know, through the lens of if you're an
investor, you know, every investor needs a
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portfolio they can have confidence in in
periods of stress.
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And to do that, you really need to have one you
can call your own.
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So it needs to fit to where when things get
difficult, you you know what you own and you
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have confidence in it.
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You don't feel like you're you're dog chasing
your tail tail or, you know, you're panicking.
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So that was our immediate effort really in the
1st 18 months was to get the portfolio to where
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it was something we were comfortable with.
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What is your philosophy when it comes to
endowment style investing?
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1st, in a big point, like, I ask our team, at
the core to think like investors and not like
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allocators.
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So, you know, the the word allocator here is
not one that we use.
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In fact, I start getting a little twitchy when
it's it's used, and people people on the team
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know not to use it.
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So that is core to everything we do.
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You know, we we don't allocate capital to
certain parts of the world or certain
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strategies.
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We don't fill buckets.
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Core to our approach is the idea that we are
fundamentally investing in operating companies
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predominantly and at the right point in the
capital structure to where we can compound
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capital over time in a way that supports a long
term high time horizon and a long term entity.
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The endowment should persist, you know, the
lifetime of everyone on this team.
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A lot of your peers, especially those who have
been CIOs for multiple decades, talk about this
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kind of herd behavior people pile into asset
classes oftentimes in the late stages of the
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cycle.
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What are your thoughts on that?
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Yeah.
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I think that's what makes markets right.
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Like, I I had an old board member.
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I'll leave him nameless even though I adore
him, but he always said, like, you know, you
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could investors generally don't make money.
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And he he was focused on mutual funds because
none of them had the courage to buy at the
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bottom.
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It's manifestly true, at least in my belief,
because that's why cycles happen.
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So it's it's sort of like which drives the
other.
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I think you have to know yourself a little bit
as an investor in what, you know, you'll you'll
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be able to execute on and what you can.
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Part of that's your temperament, your
distribution, or your, your willingness to take
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risk.
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And I think I want to be on the right side of,
like, trends and things where there is capital
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formation over a reasonable period of time.
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The tricky thing is, like, when do you sell
them or when do you reduce them?
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So where we have those I'm not dogmatic about
rebalancing.
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As an example, we will let things run, but
we're always sort of itchy about about staying
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too long and when to sell.
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You started at University of Florida in 2006,
so you lived through the global financial
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crisis.
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How much does that inform your investing
strategy today?
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Probably too much, honestly, David.
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Like, I I took me years to outgrow that.
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I joined Florida, in February of 2006, I
believe.
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Brand new investment office, very young CIO.
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Our CIO there was Mike Smith, who, you know, I
remain pretty close with today, and he's, he
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was a great mentor.
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But we he and I and, you know, some of the
other folks on the team were all really young.
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And I think he was 32 when he was named CIO at,
University of Florida.
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We got there so he started in, like, o five, I
think.
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No.
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Mid o four, and I started at the beginning of
06.
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And, you know, 06 was sort of a normal year, a
pretty good year.
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07 was a weird year.
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Market's okay.
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Like, optically, we're really healthy, but you
could feel lots of things going wrong under the
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surface, and and asset prices behave weirdly.
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We were positioned well for it.
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I was probably a little naive at the time.
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I'm like, wow.
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You know?
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We saw this.
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Like, other people saw it too, but we got it
right.
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We still lost money as everyone did.
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But, you know, coming out of that on the other
side, one of the biggest reflections was that
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you have to be able to play both sides of the
tape, like and this is where I I use this
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phrase with our investment committee or our
board or stakeholders and our team, like, you
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have to be able to transition through a market
cycle and do so in a way that allows you to
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play offense.
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And it was at Florida, that was really what I
learned, David, one of many things, but but
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vividly learned was the idea that, like, coming
out of a cycle, you need to be willing to take
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risk.
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And, honestly, I I think by 2011, maybe 2012
and I I had left UF at that point, but I
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realized coming out of that cycle in 2009, we
had not taken enough risk.
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And, you know, I think one of the things I
admire about venture and growth sorts of
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investors is their their optimism, and they're
always able to, like, see the the upside.
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And, you know, if you spend too much time with,
like, the value community and public equities
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and credit, like, you'll you'll find everything
in the world that can go wrong.
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And markets need both sides.
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And as as an investor in a place like an
endowment, you need to be able to do both, or
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at least surround yourself with people that
can.
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So when you look at venture investing, how much
of it is which venture manager checks as many
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boxes versus which one has the biggest
strengths?
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How much are you playing to a manager's
strengths and weaknesses versus overall kind of
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broad skill set?
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The venture community uses the phrase, like,
you know, what's your superpower, a lot.
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And and that's really, like, the only area of
where we work that I that I hear that.
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But I I do think at least in that area of the
world, I it it it has it has some merit to to
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it.
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For a university endowment that's
$2,900,000,000, how much space do you have to
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take these asymmetric extreme risks?
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Like, how much could you invest in crypto plays
and things like that that have very binary
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outcomes?
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It gives us room to do it, but we we have to be
picky.
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So or or selective.
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You know, we we don't we're not of the scale to
where I think it makes sense for us to do, you
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know, dozens of very small, highly, like,
binary distribution sort of of bets.
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So, you know, we don't really do crypto as an
example, in part because I don't really fully
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understand it.
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Someone in my team understands it very well,
but we've not done any.
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That's not to say we wouldn't, but we've we've
not to this point.
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And because of the size of our team and the
size of the pool, we just have to be targeted
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on where we pick them.
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So, you know, we've got a a vertical on our
team.
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We refer to it as learning, research, and
engagement.
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On the learning side, that person, Jeremy, on
our team is focused around structuring, you
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know, our our research and our flow and our
learnings and having the team sort of be
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disciplined about theses and why we're looking
at something, putting in the proper, like,
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check marks, and coming back to things, hold
ourselves accountable what we said we needed to
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learn in order to proceed on something.
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So when we do that, we'll go slow, but we'll go
deep.
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It just means you can't go wide maybe to your
point.
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So, like, we're, you know, we're not gonna be
doing 10 of those at a time or even 5 of those
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at a time because we don't have the bandwidth.
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We don't need to be everywhere doing lots of
things.
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But the things we do, I wanna do them really
well and understand them as well as anyone.
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You mentioned you're very particular that
you're not an allocator.
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You're an investor.
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What did you mean by that?
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Even just with the way we organize our team.
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So we have, somebody who we we informally refer
to as our head of growth and somebody we
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informally refer to as our head of value.
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So our team at the senior level is split up
with, head of operations, the head of growth,
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the head of value, and then the learning,
research, and engagement person.
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You can think of growth really as things or
sectors that or industries that are income
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statement focused or revenue focused, and then
values, just areas that are more balance sheet
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focused.
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So, you know, then that translates into asset
classes, but also industries and verticals too.
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So, you know, obviously, banks, industrials,
cyclicals, would fall under value, but also
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credit or real estate would fall under value.
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Whereas things like software, our head of
growth actually used to be a software analyst
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and and is an engineer by background.
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Venture growth sorts of strategies, regardless
of the geography, even, like, retail growth
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stories, Anything income statement focused
really falls under that part of the spectrum.
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So that one, obviously, with growth is is more
equity focused than not, where value is a
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little more broad.
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But at at a high level, those are just first
line accountability assignments.
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So everyone on the team is a generalist and is
able to work on, you know, virtually anything
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except for a few, you know, no fly zones here
and there.
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But virtually anything in the world, but they
have first line accountability for certain
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segments of the market.
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How do you make sure that you're making the
right decisions?
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What's your decision making process?
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Yeah.
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We we debate things in a way that can become
borderline or absolutely beyond borderline
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frustrating for folks, including me.
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So one of the things I love about our our team
is we love to argue.
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This team argues every day about lots of
things, and we have really strong relationships
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with one another.
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It's never personal, but we have strong
intellectual disagreement, around whether it's
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parts of the market, asset allocation, whether
we should hire a manager, whether we should
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make a co investment or a direct investment,
what our growth assumptions are in something.
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Even silly things like where our margin for
being right or wrong might be, like, 52, 48 or
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something, whether it's, like, whether to hedge
FX or something.
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But we debate those sorts of things deeply.
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Ultimately, somebody has to decide, so that's
me, but I rarely would decide without lots of
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debate, going going into that decision.
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Do you believe in the Jeff Bezos principle of
the leader should speak last?
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I believe in it more than I don't.
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I I will confess.
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I I sometimes have a hard time waiting to go
last.
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I have a few pet peeves, and I I I try to I
just can't I I I wanna outgrow some of them.
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I just I've reconciled myself to the fact that,
like, with some of them, I won't.
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But, like, one of my pet peeves is, like, I
just I hate hearing inaccurate information
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presented as fact in a in a discussion.
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So when I hear it, I I just I I can't I can't
stay quiet.
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It drives me absolutely bonkers.
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And that doesn't happen very often, but, you
know, it I I just I'm very focused on making
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sure that the the criteria in which we're
debating to make a decision is the right
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criteria with the right information.
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And when that is happening and I'm just an
observer, that's fantastic.
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I read something years ago, and they're like,
you should have thinking meetings or
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discussions, and yet you should be very clear
about when you're deciding.
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So we have a lot of meetings where we're
thinking, or discussing, but we're not
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deciding.
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And and I I I love those.
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Like, I'd rather take in the information than
than give it out.
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So it's really easy to remain quiet or or
observer.
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One of the things that I've really applied in
my life is whenever there's big decisions to be
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had, the belief in iterative meetings.
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So if there's an organizational decision,
instead of having one big 2 hour meeting where
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everybody kind of gets their best opinion,
having these small iterative meetings, allowing
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people to evolve their thinking, to think
higher, to think more about their decision
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making, come to a better solution.
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It also is less daunting when when you're kind
of coming across big tasks.
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I like that idea actually, David.
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00:13:00,684 --> 00:13:02,365
I I I should give that some more thought.
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You know, we're even two and a half years in,
we're we're still thinking about what what our
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meeting cadence should be and, like, the types
of meetings we have.
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We've pivoted a little bit on these a couple
times over that period.
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Part of that's a reflection of where we were in
our development, and part of it is just a
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recognition that the way we had things
structured wasn't wasn't working the way we
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would like it to.
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So I have no doubt we'll change it again.
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That that's an interesting idea.
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What what we tried to do to this point is we
have standing meetings.
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So, like, we have a weekly team meeting.
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People travel.
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It can get moved.
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We have a biweekly meeting that's a little bit
deeper on investments.
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Sometimes that one will get moved or have to be
moved around.
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But then we have some other meetings that are
that are immovable.
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We have a monthly research meeting, which can
run anywhere from 2 to 4 and a half hours.
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That meeting does not get moved.
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I've done that meeting, from the other side of
the globe at 3 in the morning, or at midnight.
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Like, it doesn't get moved.
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If you can't make it, then you're that's fine
if you have to miss it for something, but,
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like, don't miss it because you're scheduling a
meeting that you could've scheduled the next
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day.
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I just figured with some of those, especially
the less frequent ones, like, you you you just
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have to have them on there.
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You have to honor the fact that they're there
and hold to the calendar even if you miss
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people occasionally.
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So we're still working through some of those
things.
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I'll have to I'll have to think through more on
the iterative meeting idea.
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How do you know that you're building
institutional knowledge?
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A couple of ways we we can see it tangibly, and
then, otherwise, we're we're we're really still
258
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trying to get better, or more intangible.
259
00:14:38,294 --> 00:14:41,059
So, you know, we have a growing library of
research here.
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00:14:41,059 --> 00:14:45,460
Could be things like one of the things we've
got a project going on now is just around
261
00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:46,660
studying carbon capture.
262
00:14:46,660 --> 00:14:49,639
We've done some things on sustainable aviation
fuels.
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00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:52,845
It could just be as simple as, like, mapping a
market.
264
00:14:52,845 --> 00:14:57,325
On the other side of that are the more
intangible things about, you know, intellectual
265
00:14:57,325 --> 00:14:59,725
honesty and making sure, like, we're making
decisions.
266
00:14:59,725 --> 00:15:01,245
I keep a diary as an example.
267
00:15:01,245 --> 00:15:05,665
Like, every time we have a transaction in the
endowment, especially if it's something where
268
00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:10,940
it's direct and in liquid markets and, you
know, you constantly ask yourself, like, every
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00:15:10,940 --> 00:15:14,940
day, like, why do I own this, or or why did I
buy it or sell it?
270
00:15:14,940 --> 00:15:19,259
I keep a diary just in my iPad about why I'm
doing everything.
271
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And then at an endowment level, one person on
our team is is responsible for trying to make
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sure that we're sort of ex ante and and,
really, this is just documenting our
273
00:15:30,184 --> 00:15:30,585
discussions.
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00:15:30,585 --> 00:15:35,384
But ex ante, we're identifying exactly why
we're doing this and what we believe and don't
275
00:15:35,384 --> 00:15:36,389
believe about it.
276
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:41,670
So when things happen over the life cycle of an
investment, we can be honest with ourselves
277
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:46,470
about whether it was part of the thesis, thesis
is broken, or it's just new information we need
278
00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:47,590
to form a view on.
279
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:50,250
You guys are clearly first principles when it
comes to investing.
280
00:15:50,574 --> 00:15:54,894
How much of your investing is around filling
buckets versus kind of best ideas?
281
00:15:54,894 --> 00:15:58,034
Like, how much flexibility do you have in terms
of different assets?
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00:15:58,254 --> 00:15:59,634
We have wide ranges.
283
00:16:00,014 --> 00:16:05,475
So we use a framework called beta factors,
which I'll give credit to my CIO at Vanderbilt,
284
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:06,629
Anders.
285
00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:11,269
So everything in the world for us is either at
a security level, so not a manager or a fund
286
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:11,590
level.
287
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:17,930
Everything is either equity credit, interest
rates, cash, real estate, or commodities.
288
00:16:18,070 --> 00:16:19,990
Equity is just equity, public or private.
289
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:25,555
Credit is just loans, or packages of loans to
operating businesses or projects.
290
00:16:25,615 --> 00:16:27,535
Real estate is just land and buildings on it.
291
00:16:27,535 --> 00:16:28,975
Cash is what it sounds like.
292
00:16:28,975 --> 00:16:30,835
Interest rates are just loans to government.
293
00:16:31,215 --> 00:16:35,009
And then commodities are basically things you
could set on fire or drop on your foot.
294
00:16:35,169 --> 00:16:37,029
So everything falls into that.
295
00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:43,669
For 3 of those categories, there's a range,
but, you know, the the 4 zero.
296
00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:47,490
And then for equity, it's a pretty wide range.
297
00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:52,095
But in reality, the way we think about this is
credit is the most tactical part of the
298
00:16:52,095 --> 00:16:52,595
endowment.
299
00:16:52,975 --> 00:16:59,134
So it could be 7% of the endowment at one point
and, you know, 22% at another point based upon
300
00:16:59,134 --> 00:17:00,835
the credit cycle and the market cycle.
301
00:17:02,335 --> 00:17:06,830
And, you know, I stole this from, Rich
Bernstein who, you know, said I think you wrote
302
00:17:06,830 --> 00:17:11,470
this in one of his, books, but it's better to
be late to credit I'm sorry, early to credit
303
00:17:11,470 --> 00:17:15,150
and late to equity, and that's stylistically
how I think about it.
304
00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:20,110
So, you know, our equity exposure has been as
low as 57% since I've been here and as high as,
305
00:17:20,110 --> 00:17:21,009
I think, 71.
306
00:17:21,150 --> 00:17:29,565
And, you know, credit's been as low as, 11,
maybe 10, and as high as 18 or 19.
307
00:17:29,625 --> 00:17:32,345
That could be an even wider distribution over
time.
308
00:17:32,345 --> 00:17:34,664
Just we haven't had a full cycle since I've
been here.
309
00:17:34,664 --> 00:17:38,200
Generally speaking, equity is gonna drive the
return of the endowment.
310
00:17:38,259 --> 00:17:41,720
So that is where we spend the most time day to
day.
311
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:48,099
It's just looking at industries, managers, and
companies, in public and private markets
312
00:17:48,099 --> 00:17:48,599
globally.
313
00:17:49,085 --> 00:17:53,505
How does endowment know what part of the market
cycle, it finds itself?
314
00:17:53,805 --> 00:17:55,244
That's it it's really hard.
315
00:17:55,484 --> 00:17:58,525
And and I I won't claim to have mastered it.
316
00:17:58,525 --> 00:18:00,444
What are what are what are some what are some
signs?
317
00:18:00,444 --> 00:18:04,109
Like, what do you look for, and how do you how
do you try to probabilistically predict it?
318
00:18:04,429 --> 00:18:08,509
I I'll give you the two opposite ends of the
spectrum here.
319
00:18:08,509 --> 00:18:15,230
One obvious end would be in 2,007, 8, 9 where,
you know, virtually all endowments had huge
320
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:16,609
liquidity considerations.
321
00:18:17,215 --> 00:18:17,535
And, you know,
322
00:18:17,535 --> 00:18:20,975
there are rumors that some were even calling
their GPs and saying not to call Capital
323
00:18:20,975 --> 00:18:22,575
because we're not gonna wire you the money.
324
00:18:22,575 --> 00:18:23,934
So that's that's the one end.
325
00:18:23,934 --> 00:18:25,235
That's that's bad.
326
00:18:25,775 --> 00:18:31,555
And then there's the other end who, you know,
my my boss, who's probably my greatest mentor,
327
00:18:32,509 --> 00:18:37,970
Bill Peterson from the Sloan Foundation, he he
jokingly, but I think only half jokingly, says
328
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:41,330
they will ride on his tombstone that he never
took enough risk.
329
00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:48,075
So Bill would carry, you know, 15 to 20% fixed
income in cash, for long periods of time.
330
00:18:48,315 --> 00:18:49,994
And, you know, markets would grind higher.
331
00:18:49,994 --> 00:18:54,554
I mean, I remember we were doing that at Sloan
in in 2013, and I don't remember exactly, but,
332
00:18:54,554 --> 00:18:58,414
like, I I think the Russell was up, like, 40
something percent that year or something,
333
00:18:58,474 --> 00:18:59,294
something crazy.
334
00:18:59,674 --> 00:19:02,335
And we had meaningful cash and fixed income.
335
00:19:02,474 --> 00:19:06,690
And, you know, Bill was kinda banging himself
in the head just reconciling, like, all the
336
00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:07,890
liquidity we're carrying around.
337
00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:10,369
So that's the delicate portion of it.
338
00:19:10,369 --> 00:19:12,849
So I don't try to really do either of those.
339
00:19:12,849 --> 00:19:18,289
What I really try to do is just make sure I can
manage risk with liquidity because I don't and
340
00:19:18,289 --> 00:19:19,214
this is the key part.
341
00:19:19,214 --> 00:19:22,755
I don't wanna be a fore seller of assets at the
tail end of a cycle.
342
00:19:23,054 --> 00:19:28,174
In my mind, if you can traverse the cycle to
where you can play offense and meet your spend,
343
00:19:28,174 --> 00:19:33,214
you know, we spend over 5% or distribute over
5% a year at the foundation, I've gotta be able
344
00:19:33,214 --> 00:19:33,954
to do both.
345
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:37,159
And then I also have to be able to meet capital
calls, if we get them.
346
00:19:37,159 --> 00:19:39,740
Our unfunded are pretty low here, so that's
pretty manageable.
347
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,700
But those are the biggest requirements that
would satisfy, you know, traversing a cycle or
348
00:19:44,759 --> 00:19:49,240
or being, you know, being able to invest the
same way on the other side of it that you were
349
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:49,904
going through it.
350
00:19:50,465 --> 00:19:55,205
Speaking with Victor Mayer the other day from
Pantheon, he runs their evergreen fund among
351
00:19:55,265 --> 00:19:56,144
other other roles.
352
00:19:56,144 --> 00:20:01,025
And he mentioned that one of the tricky parts
is that when you have something like the global
353
00:20:01,025 --> 00:20:05,740
financial crisis, you not only have NAVCO down,
but you also have capital call risk.
354
00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:11,259
And all these confounding factors basically
almost overnight, appear, and there there's
355
00:20:11,259 --> 00:20:15,944
much more of a compounding to it than you would
intuitively kind of be able to predict.
356
00:20:16,244 --> 00:20:17,224
It's totally true.
357
00:20:17,284 --> 00:20:20,284
And and that that that's part of what I try to
avoid.
358
00:20:20,284 --> 00:20:25,924
I mean, since we do a decent number of co
investments and direct investments, that does
359
00:20:25,924 --> 00:20:28,424
limit the amount of unfunded commitments we
have.
360
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,639
Over time, it it it'll continue to do that.
361
00:20:31,639 --> 00:20:34,379
So, you know, that that helps.
362
00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:38,519
You just have a better understanding of, like,
the timing of illiquidity on your balance sheet
363
00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:39,879
because you've already made the investments.
364
00:20:39,879 --> 00:20:41,579
It's it's not an unfunded liability.
365
00:20:42,365 --> 00:20:46,924
So that definitely helps, and and that that's
something more people are probably doing now
366
00:20:46,924 --> 00:20:53,105
than they were doing, you know, in the the
financial crisis in 2,000, you know, 7, 8, 9.
367
00:20:53,244 --> 00:20:55,799
So that's probably one of the biggest
differences, I think.
368
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,740
And the other difference, I think, just
generally, people learn their lesson that were
369
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,640
you know, you you asked earlier about, you
know, lessons learned going through that period
370
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,279
and how much it would impact my investment
philosophy.
371
00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:12,835
And I I think broadly, I think anyone that
worked in the sort of role through that period
372
00:21:12,835 --> 00:21:15,234
has seen that mistake and and knows what it
feels like.
373
00:21:15,234 --> 00:21:18,195
So it it's one of those generational, sort of
learnings.
374
00:21:18,195 --> 00:21:23,555
I don't I don't think we'll really see that
that broad scale until, you know, people in
375
00:21:23,555 --> 00:21:25,414
that cohort begin to phase out.
376
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,559
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377
00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:32,019
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378
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,480
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379
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380
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381
00:21:40,755 --> 00:21:44,775
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382
00:21:44,914 --> 00:21:46,134
Thank you for your support.
383
00:21:46,835 --> 00:21:48,934
What were your learnings in in 2022?
384
00:21:49,795 --> 00:21:54,455
I started, with the foundation here in April
beginning of April 2022.
385
00:21:55,420 --> 00:22:01,519
So my earliest learning here was the the
playbook and plan I had written in, call it,
386
00:22:02,059 --> 00:22:07,019
October, November, December of 2021 was
obsolete the day I walked in the door.
387
00:22:07,019 --> 00:22:09,285
That, in some ways, was terrifying.
388
00:22:09,664 --> 00:22:13,825
I'd spent months preparing, you know, to walk
in the door with a strategy that I thought we'd
389
00:22:13,825 --> 00:22:18,384
be able to execute on pretty quickly, and it
just wasn't realistic because a lot had changed
390
00:22:18,384 --> 00:22:19,765
since December of 21.
391
00:22:19,904 --> 00:22:21,920
So in some ways, it was good for us.
392
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,779
You know, we within venture in sort of growth y
sorts of areas, direct investments and funds,
393
00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:31,279
we had some things available to us more quickly
because capital became a little bit more
394
00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:31,779
scarce.
395
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,734
So that, I hadn't really planned for.
396
00:22:34,734 --> 00:22:39,535
The cycle turn kinda changed my priority mix,
or hierarchy is probably the best way of
397
00:22:39,535 --> 00:22:40,174
looking at it.
398
00:22:40,174 --> 00:22:43,315
So so we shifted where we're gonna work first.
399
00:22:43,455 --> 00:22:49,240
Are there any practical hedges or instruments
that endowment can utilize in order to either
400
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,380
stay long, extra long on a long bull market or
hedge against a bear market?
401
00:22:54,599 --> 00:22:56,359
From our perspective, there's 2 things you can
do.
402
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:02,255
Number 1, like, you can be conscious about
liquidity in liquids liquid markets and not
403
00:23:02,255 --> 00:23:07,875
sacrifice liquidity for unnecessary structure
just to wrap her around liquid assets.
404
00:23:08,255 --> 00:23:12,869
So but that what I mean by that is, like,
you'll see funds that have rolling locks or
405
00:23:12,869 --> 00:23:20,250
long lock ups or or complicated, sorts of exit
mechanisms and just liquid public equities.
406
00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:22,890
We generally don't do those.
407
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:27,595
The public markets book, I try to keep
reasonably liquid, but there's a balance there.
408
00:23:27,595 --> 00:23:31,214
Like, I I will accept a little bit of
illiquidity there if I think there's
409
00:23:31,355 --> 00:23:37,835
legitimate, sort of market structure reasons or
other sorts of liquidity driven reasons to do
410
00:23:37,835 --> 00:23:45,160
so, but not just to access a group who has a
high, you know, demand for their limited
411
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:45,640
capacity.
412
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,400
And because of that, you're gonna do a 3 year
lock or or or something something of that
413
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:49,799
nature.
414
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:51,000
So that that's one thing.
415
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,519
The second thing is you can use derivatives.
416
00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:55,214
So it's not a hedge, but it helps you manage
liquidity pretty well.
417
00:23:55,534 --> 00:24:02,015
So we think on the margin, we think a lot about
asset allocation and the use of sort of, you
418
00:24:02,015 --> 00:24:07,134
know, cash product versus derivatives, and what
helps us better be flexible in managing our
419
00:24:07,134 --> 00:24:07,634
liquidity.
420
00:24:08,049 --> 00:24:09,329
Those are the 2 biggest things.
421
00:24:09,329 --> 00:24:10,710
Not really outright hedges.
422
00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:14,930
Done a little FX hedging here, but for the most
part, we're just trying to be thoughtful about
423
00:24:14,930 --> 00:24:15,809
the risk we're taking.
424
00:24:15,809 --> 00:24:19,009
We're not levered, so we're not really hedging
a lot either.
425
00:24:19,009 --> 00:24:22,150
I'd rather undo the risk than wrap a hedge
around it.
426
00:24:22,375 --> 00:24:27,115
Outside of the liquidity constraints, which is
a 5% deployment per year, what other
427
00:24:27,494 --> 00:24:29,034
constraints do you have on your strategy?
428
00:24:29,335 --> 00:24:30,454
Not a lot, really.
429
00:24:30,454 --> 00:24:36,289
We have an asset allocation, that's approved by
our board, our investment policy committee, and
430
00:24:36,289 --> 00:24:40,369
we have an investment policy committee that
asked us to have certain restrictions around
431
00:24:40,369 --> 00:24:43,349
the amount of derivatives we hold on the
balance sheet.
432
00:24:43,410 --> 00:24:45,589
But for the most part, we're pretty
unconstrained.
433
00:24:45,890 --> 00:24:50,309
You know, our our biggest constraint is really
our bandwidth, and that's intentional.
434
00:24:51,674 --> 00:24:54,554
And then, you know, the the our ability to
execute.
435
00:24:54,554 --> 00:24:57,934
So the foundation's been great with resources.
436
00:24:58,794 --> 00:25:03,914
We are very well resourced with technology,
with travel, and the office budget, the
437
00:25:03,914 --> 00:25:06,154
ability, and the resources to hire.
438
00:25:06,154 --> 00:25:09,329
So I give the University of Illinois Foundation
a lot of credit.
439
00:25:09,329 --> 00:25:13,889
I mean, they've they fully resourced this group
and a lot of the constraints you would
440
00:25:13,889 --> 00:25:14,609
typically have.
441
00:25:14,609 --> 00:25:18,710
You know, there were discussions, obviously,
upfront if you wanna do do derivatives.
442
00:25:19,089 --> 00:25:19,809
What does it mean?
443
00:25:19,809 --> 00:25:20,710
What does it require?
444
00:25:21,464 --> 00:25:25,224
We are in Chicago after all, and it's a huge
commodities and derivatives town.
445
00:25:25,224 --> 00:25:29,865
So, you know, there are stakeholders that had,
questions and rightfully so.
446
00:25:29,865 --> 00:25:34,984
But at this point, we we really don't have we
don't have a lot of restrictions or or things
447
00:25:34,984 --> 00:25:35,940
standing in our way.
448
00:25:36,179 --> 00:25:41,000
I had, doctor Ashby Monk who runs the Stanford
Long Term Investing Initiative, and and he said
449
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:45,319
the most underrated part of endowment pension
funds is their governance.
450
00:25:45,379 --> 00:25:48,899
That's the biggest kind of differentiation
between returns.
451
00:25:48,899 --> 00:25:52,875
How much has governance played into the 4
endowments that you've been you know, how much
452
00:25:52,875 --> 00:25:58,335
has investment committees affected a team's
ability to maximize returns or maximize
453
00:25:58,394 --> 00:25:58,894
objectives?
454
00:25:59,434 --> 00:26:03,375
Well, I I tell you, it's a those 4 groups could
not be more different.
455
00:26:03,595 --> 00:26:06,849
So, I mean, in in virtually any way.
456
00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:11,470
In a way, it it's probably helped better
prepare me.
457
00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:16,269
You know, when I was at Florida, as an example,
like, our CIO, Mike, did most of the board
458
00:26:16,269 --> 00:26:16,769
management.
459
00:26:16,829 --> 00:26:18,049
We were a small team.
460
00:26:18,509 --> 00:26:19,630
We were a new team.
461
00:26:19,630 --> 00:26:24,964
Like, it I I had no idea at that point what it
meant to to manage a board.
462
00:26:24,964 --> 00:26:29,845
And Mike had a some background, as a consultant
for a little while before that, so he was much
463
00:26:29,845 --> 00:26:31,464
better prepared to do that.
464
00:26:31,524 --> 00:26:37,059
But even by the time I left Florida, like, I I
had zero, sort of knowledge or appreciation for
465
00:26:37,059 --> 00:26:38,440
for what went into it.
466
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:45,539
It really began when I got to to Sloan and
learning from Bill and then, really, really
467
00:26:45,539 --> 00:26:47,474
kinda took off at at Vanderbilt.
468
00:26:48,575 --> 00:26:54,014
So, you know, I'd I'd say in in that phase at
Vanderbilt, one of the things I really learned
469
00:26:54,014 --> 00:26:57,534
was that was a tough committee, but a very fair
committee.
470
00:26:57,534 --> 00:27:02,279
But, you know, there were folks on there that
asked deep questions that made you think, and
471
00:27:02,279 --> 00:27:03,660
you had to be prepared.
472
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,480
So, you know, one of the takeaways is it helps
make me a better investor, but I prepare
473
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,240
incessantly for board meetings.
474
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,554
Not just to present to the board, but it helps
me understand the portfolio even better and
475
00:27:16,554 --> 00:27:18,414
introduces another level of accountability.
476
00:27:18,794 --> 00:27:23,674
My question had a false promise, which is, that
investment committees, detract from returns,
477
00:27:23,674 --> 00:27:26,474
but you're actually saying investment
committees can actually improve decision
478
00:27:26,474 --> 00:27:27,454
making, improve returns.
479
00:27:27,515 --> 00:27:31,730
I I can say this publicly because I know every
investor says it privately, and and boards are
480
00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:32,849
not naive to this.
481
00:27:32,849 --> 00:27:38,210
But, you know, every every person who reports
to a board in virtually any kind of setting,
482
00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:43,095
not just, you know, investors at endowments or
foundations or a pension or whatnot.
483
00:27:43,095 --> 00:27:45,095
Like, it's like an old pastime.
484
00:27:45,095 --> 00:27:48,154
Everyone complains about their board, and if
you're not yet, you will.
485
00:27:48,214 --> 00:27:56,134
So I I just at some point in the last decade, I
just kinda accepted that as being part of the
486
00:27:56,134 --> 00:27:56,375
role.
487
00:27:56,375 --> 00:28:01,029
And, you know, when I when I do that typically,
I just I look internally.
488
00:28:01,029 --> 00:28:01,849
I'm like, alright.
489
00:28:02,230 --> 00:28:03,190
This is what it is.
490
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:08,390
Like, you can either accept it for what it is
and be good at it, or you can complain about it
491
00:28:08,390 --> 00:28:11,769
and you're it's just a confession that you'll
probably be terrible at it forever.
492
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:13,535
So you're not gonna change it.
493
00:28:13,535 --> 00:28:18,095
And if you wanna have a great relationship, if
you wanna have a great support from your
494
00:28:18,095 --> 00:28:20,994
government structure, like, you have to earn
their confidence.
495
00:28:21,375 --> 00:28:25,535
And as long as you can keep their confidence
and have a great working relationship, then you
496
00:28:25,535 --> 00:28:27,000
just have to perform in your role.
497
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:33,980
But I my biggest my biggest focus with this
board and and certainly the prior board was
498
00:28:34,519 --> 00:28:37,160
just initially earning and then maintaining
their confidence.
499
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,680
And numbers will be good at times.
500
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,519
Numbers will not be so good at times.
501
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,304
But as long as you have their confidence,
again, surviving the cycle on the path.
502
00:28:44,304 --> 00:28:48,785
Like, if you can get to the other side of that
and you're still executing well and you still
503
00:28:48,785 --> 00:28:50,544
have their confidence, you'll be fine.
504
00:28:50,544 --> 00:28:54,880
But even if your numbers get better and you've
you've lost their confidence, you have a
505
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,460
problem and you've created a problem for your
team also.
506
00:28:57,599 --> 00:29:02,799
It's the ultimate iterative game, and you have
to avoid the temptation to sacrifice political
507
00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:07,200
capital in the short term or relationship
capital no matter how how much you believe in
508
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:07,700
investment.
509
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:08,535
Yeah.
510
00:29:09,414 --> 00:29:12,394
I had another great board member, and this one
was at Florida.
511
00:29:12,695 --> 00:29:15,414
We had somebody who, it wasn't a board member.
512
00:29:15,414 --> 00:29:21,255
It was actually a a university person, and they
were, I'll just say, difficult to work with at
513
00:29:21,255 --> 00:29:21,734
times.
514
00:29:21,734 --> 00:29:30,059
And and I remember we were having a a a as just
a small, like, chat after a board meeting, and
515
00:29:30,059 --> 00:29:34,140
I was lamenting, like, the difficulty I was
going through and having we're trying to set up
516
00:29:34,140 --> 00:29:37,585
this offshore structure, and I was like, this
really shouldn't be that difficult.
517
00:29:37,805 --> 00:29:41,505
And he just looked at me and goes, he's
listening, he's listening, listening intently,
518
00:29:42,045 --> 00:29:43,805
and he goes, what else?
519
00:29:43,805 --> 00:29:45,345
I'm like, that's really it.
520
00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:47,644
He's like, well, what are you gonna do?
521
00:29:47,644 --> 00:29:49,759
I'm like, we're just gonna have to get it done.
522
00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:50,980
Like, we'll figure it out.
523
00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:55,220
And then he finally he's like, well, that's
exactly what you should do.
524
00:29:55,519 --> 00:29:58,640
But just keep in mind, they're only trying to
help.
525
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,759
And as long as you remember, they're only
trying to help and you can work with them and
526
00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:06,085
you let them think that they've helped, and
hopefully they do help, then you guys will
527
00:30:06,085 --> 00:30:07,305
still have a great relationship.
528
00:30:07,684 --> 00:30:09,125
And I I never forgot that.
529
00:30:09,125 --> 00:30:16,965
You know, it if if you if you take if you take
relationships or dialogue and you engage with
530
00:30:16,965 --> 00:30:22,059
the presumption of good intent and people are
not trying to do harm or, they're just trying
531
00:30:22,059 --> 00:30:25,200
to help, then you'll generally find a way to
work through it productively.
532
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:26,059
Yeah.
533
00:30:26,059 --> 00:30:31,740
To put my master's psychology hat on, people
are complex systems and they both have positive
534
00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:33,100
intent and negative intent.
535
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:36,565
So you could you could align either with a
positive intent or the negative intent.
536
00:30:36,565 --> 00:30:36,644
Yeah.
537
00:30:36,644 --> 00:30:36,884
You can
538
00:30:36,884 --> 00:30:38,585
find both both in every interaction.
539
00:30:38,884 --> 00:30:43,445
You mentioned, when we last spoke that you
don't use targets for your growth venture and
540
00:30:43,445 --> 00:30:44,164
buyout funds.
541
00:30:44,164 --> 00:30:44,984
Why is that?
542
00:30:45,045 --> 00:30:49,065
We have a head of growth and head of value, and
they're constantly looking at interesting
543
00:30:49,125 --> 00:30:49,625
ideas.
544
00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:55,259
I don't wanna bias what we're looking at simply
because, you know, last year, we didn't do
545
00:30:55,259 --> 00:30:59,980
enough of one thing, and this year, we need to
do more of it because, like, we're in danger of
546
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:01,119
not hitting a target.
547
00:31:02,140 --> 00:31:07,865
So I focus more on trying to find the best
ideas, having this intellectual debate about,
548
00:31:07,865 --> 00:31:11,164
like, what gets passed, those initial,
conversations.
549
00:31:11,384 --> 00:31:16,025
And then it being sort of dual sided, you know,
we're doing thesis driven work and industry
550
00:31:16,025 --> 00:31:19,909
work on one side, and we're looking at
companies and industries on the other side.
551
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:24,629
And, hopefully, we meet in the middle, with the
right partners and an opportunity to maybe
552
00:31:24,629 --> 00:31:26,409
invest with those partners further.
553
00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:30,409
And I think introducing targets to that just
really muddies the waters.
554
00:31:30,795 --> 00:31:35,295
Do you think institutional investors are overly
biased when it comes to doing re ups?
555
00:31:35,434 --> 00:31:36,555
I think that's fair.
556
00:31:36,555 --> 00:31:40,955
You know, one of the things it was rumored
David Swenson used to say was that they would
557
00:31:40,955 --> 00:31:44,715
get off the train one stop earlier, the bus one
stop early, and that they thought that was one
558
00:31:44,715 --> 00:31:46,500
of the things they had done well over the
years.
559
00:31:46,660 --> 00:31:51,380
I don't think that's true of, like, the the
industry, the LP industry at large, and I
560
00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:52,259
understand why.
561
00:31:52,259 --> 00:31:57,940
And and in fact, I I think we're often our team
is probably guilty of stay overstaying our
562
00:31:57,940 --> 00:31:59,555
welcome sometimes too.
563
00:31:59,555 --> 00:32:04,115
And I just knowing how I'm wired, like, I I
always ask my team, like, what else do you need
564
00:32:04,115 --> 00:32:04,515
to know?
565
00:32:04,515 --> 00:32:05,795
Like, we know what this is.
566
00:32:05,795 --> 00:32:10,914
We can we can handicap the variables and
discuss them, you know, fund 1 to fund 2 to
567
00:32:10,914 --> 00:32:12,035
fund 3 to fund 4.
568
00:32:12,035 --> 00:32:15,720
Like, we know what all of them are, and we know
the variables.
569
00:32:16,420 --> 00:32:20,180
And if the alternative is we're gonna do
something else, we've got to diligence it, it's
570
00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:21,080
probably earlier.
571
00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:25,619
What sort of margin error do we have to allow
for the potential of better return or better
572
00:32:25,619 --> 00:32:27,704
outcome versus what we already know?
573
00:32:27,944 --> 00:32:33,625
I personally know myself well enough to know
I'm biased to staying longer rather than, you
574
00:32:33,625 --> 00:32:34,825
know, back to what I said earlier.
575
00:32:34,825 --> 00:32:36,664
Like, I'll see everything that can go wrong
with it.
576
00:32:36,664 --> 00:32:41,544
Thankfully, I have have teammates who are are
wired differently and can see what can go
577
00:32:41,544 --> 00:32:41,944
right.
578
00:32:41,944 --> 00:32:47,349
So, so that's why I enjoy having that as a team
discussion and really, you know, engaging on it
579
00:32:47,349 --> 00:32:48,710
and beating up each other on it.
580
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:55,349
But I do think, by and large, LPs probably stay
too long, and then the outgrowth of that is,
581
00:32:55,349 --> 00:33:00,314
like, the terms get worse or the structure gets
worse or provisions change, you know, here and
582
00:33:00,314 --> 00:33:00,608
there.
583
00:33:00,608 --> 00:33:05,612
And to the extent they don't stay, that's what
kinda catalyzes that that turnover is is things
584
00:33:05,612 --> 00:33:06,200
tangibly changing.
585
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,429
But when they haven't tangibly changed, I I
think the bias is definitely not to move on.
586
00:33:11,569 --> 00:33:15,109
What do you wish you knew before starting as
CIO of University of Illinois Foundation?
587
00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:20,069
I was the deputy CIO the last couple years at
Vanderbilt, and and I have this phrase I I use
588
00:33:20,130 --> 00:33:20,630
occasionally.
589
00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:26,464
It's, you know, every every investment
organization has one CIO and that person is the
590
00:33:26,464 --> 00:33:29,365
one who has to make or wears the burden of the
decisions.
591
00:33:29,424 --> 00:33:37,000
And I knew as as the managing director and and
deputy CIO at a couple of different places,
592
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,519
like, the distinction between being someone
who's advocating or supporting, or advising on
593
00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:45,720
a decision, but not actually being the person
who has to do it.
594
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,965
And even with, I think, pretty good conscious
awareness of the distinction, I think I still
595
00:33:51,965 --> 00:33:56,625
didn't fully appreciate the burden that comes
with having to be the person to actually
596
00:33:56,765 --> 00:33:57,164
decide.
597
00:33:57,164 --> 00:34:02,924
And then the number of decisions you have to
make, about things you know, the investment
598
00:34:02,924 --> 00:34:06,619
decisions are actually easier than a lot of the
other decisions, you know, the organizational
599
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,099
decisions or or things around, like, how are
you gonna approach stakeholder considerations
600
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,800
or or lots of other things that just come with
the job.
601
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,519
So as I asked in advance of taking the role,
you know, a lot of people I'm close with that
602
00:34:18,519 --> 00:34:22,684
are CIOs, you know, what do you say about the
role versus not being in the seat?
603
00:34:22,684 --> 00:34:24,204
And they're like, it's lonely.
604
00:34:24,204 --> 00:34:27,965
And it's the number one thing I heard from
people is that it it's lonely.
605
00:34:27,965 --> 00:34:28,925
And and it can be.
606
00:34:28,925 --> 00:34:31,804
There are periods where, you know, you're
stressed about performance or you're stressed
607
00:34:31,804 --> 00:34:32,545
about decisions.
608
00:34:32,605 --> 00:34:36,765
And as I said, even with conscious awareness of
that, I still underappreciated the magnitude of
609
00:34:36,765 --> 00:34:37,265
it.
610
00:34:37,369 --> 00:34:41,130
Is that because you have to, you can't complain
to people?
611
00:34:41,130 --> 00:34:44,010
You you have to be the one absorbing kind of
all the stress?
612
00:34:44,010 --> 00:34:46,429
Or or what what makes it a lonely position?
613
00:34:46,650 --> 00:34:51,105
When you're one of many people who are not the
CIO, it's very easy to create, like, these
614
00:34:51,105 --> 00:34:54,224
dialogues or these conversations, like, I think
we should do this.
615
00:34:54,224 --> 00:34:54,724
Right?
616
00:34:54,784 --> 00:34:58,545
And when you have to actually decide, you don't
have the freedom to say, well, I think we
617
00:34:58,545 --> 00:35:01,125
should do this or, like, we you have to
actually choose.
618
00:35:02,144 --> 00:35:05,264
So you hear everyone and, you know, not
everyone's going to agree.
619
00:35:05,264 --> 00:35:10,579
We I've intentionally built, you know, a team
with with folks who are very opinionated, so
620
00:35:10,579 --> 00:35:11,699
we're going to disagree.
621
00:35:11,699 --> 00:35:14,980
And, like, you you have to live with your
decisions.
622
00:35:14,980 --> 00:35:18,764
I can vent about the fact that I made the wrong
decision, but then I made it.
623
00:35:18,764 --> 00:35:19,724
That's really what it is.
624
00:35:19,724 --> 00:35:24,444
Those those moments where you're just really
not sure and, you know, like, I think this is,
625
00:35:24,444 --> 00:35:30,844
like, 55, 45, and you're trying to weigh it and
and it's not clear, but you do have to decide
626
00:35:30,844 --> 00:35:32,385
and you have to live with the decision.
627
00:35:32,730 --> 00:35:33,949
Those are the hard points.
628
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:36,909
Reflecting back, you've been on 4 endowments
and a foundation.
629
00:35:37,130 --> 00:35:40,429
What is the best way to come to a decision for
an asset allocator?
630
00:35:40,730 --> 00:35:43,949
There was a period probably, you know, 8 years
ago or something.
631
00:35:44,585 --> 00:35:47,864
I really put some time in to try to figure out,
like, what the best structure would be.
632
00:35:47,864 --> 00:35:51,864
You know, we had surveyed some asset managers,
and, you know, like, people would vote.
633
00:35:51,864 --> 00:35:53,704
I'm like, oh, this voting idea is, like, pretty
cool.
634
00:35:53,704 --> 00:35:54,824
Like, are the weights voted?
635
00:35:54,824 --> 00:35:59,484
And, like, we tinker with lots of that stuff,
with my prior team.
636
00:35:59,864 --> 00:36:04,789
And I guess, you know, again, there's only one
CIO in every organization.
637
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:09,730
And and so with this one, at least the way
we've adopted it, anyone really can advocate
638
00:36:09,730 --> 00:36:10,369
for something.
639
00:36:10,369 --> 00:36:11,730
Ultimately, I have to decide.
640
00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:16,425
But, like, that that discussing and advocating,
as long as people can do it in a way that it's
641
00:36:16,425 --> 00:36:20,744
like they're informed, they're well read and
studied, and they're trying to advocate for
642
00:36:20,744 --> 00:36:26,264
what they think the best outcome would be, or
at least add value to the conversation even if
643
00:36:26,264 --> 00:36:31,329
they don't quite know what what they would
choose to decide, like, we'll ultimately figure
644
00:36:31,329 --> 00:36:33,510
out the best decision.
645
00:36:33,570 --> 00:36:37,570
And if we don't, then we just won't do it.
646
00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:41,190
But if there's still some uncertainty,
ultimately, then I have to decide.
647
00:36:41,585 --> 00:36:44,784
This has been a master class on endowment and
foundation investing.
648
00:36:44,784 --> 00:36:47,924
Really appreciate you taking the time, and,
look forward to continuing the conversation.
649
00:36:48,065 --> 00:36:49,025
Oh, you're too kind, David.
650
00:36:49,025 --> 00:36:49,424
Thank you.
651
00:36:49,424 --> 00:36:50,644
Thank you for having me.
652
00:36:51,904 --> 00:36:56,005
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