Ep 107 - The Joy of Suffering with Dr. Paul Chaloux

James Caldwell (00:00.898)
Hello all, welcome to another episode of the Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and tonight we have a very special interview. I interviewed, I should say, Dr. Paul Chalhoux. Dr. Paul wrote an amazing book. It's called Heaven's Currency, a study of love. It's actually the third book and basically like a three part series that he did. Another one was Dying Without Fear.

And third one, let me just hold up here real quick for you guys. It is I think how we, why all people suffer. Dr. Paul has an incredible background. We didn't really get fully into it during the interviews. I just want to explain a little bit of his background. He kind of mentioned it a little bit, but basically he worked at IBM. He retired in 2015. He was accepted into the PhD program at the Catholic University of America to study catechetics with the goal of teaching future catechists.

However, his plans basically got derailed when he was diagnosed with early onset Parkinson's disease just after he moved to Washington to DC to start his studies. And then his new neurologist basically said after the neurologist learned that Paul was studying theology, she asked him why people suffer. And he's actually like, I don't know why people suffer. And that actually ended up kind of sparking an interest of him. And he ended up writing these three books.

He wrote his dissertation, couldn't find the word there, The Grace Concealed in Suffering, Developing Virtue and Beatitude, which he defended at CUA on March 5th in 2022. So Heaven's Currency, again, it goes through many different topics. It's an amazing book. I haven't read all of it, but it is great so far. I mean, it talks about the four last things especially, which is death, judgment, heaven, and hell, why people suffer,

how we can actually unite our suffering to help not only ourselves but other people as well. We talk about the four different types of suffering. It's a really good conversation. Dr. Paul is an amazing man, especially with everything that he is going through. I cannot say enough good things about him. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation. Please hit that subscribe button wherever you're listening to on the podcast app. Make sure you leave us a five star review because I know how much you guys love this. Please support us on Patreon if you can.

James Caldwell (02:20.59)
And also as always, please, please pray for us each and every day. Please be ensured of our prayers for you as well. So again, without further ado, this is my conversation with Dr. Paul Shalhou. Hope you enjoy and God bless. Hello all. Welcome to another episode of The Manly Catholic. This is James, your host. And tonight we have a very special guest that I'm honored to bring on to the podcast. We have Dr. Paul Shalhou. Dr. Paul, how are you doing tonight, sir? I'm fine.

Wonderful. Well, it is great to have you on. And before we kind of dive into this new book that actually I just realized was released today, we are recording January 16th. Yes, it is from Sophia Press. So congratulations. I'm very excited about the topic. I think it's a topic that is very misunderstood, even amongst Catholics. But before we dive into that, Dr. Paul will start with the St. Michael prayer. So sorry, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Saint Michael the Archangel defend us in battle, be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou a prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast in hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, Dr. Paul, as I kick off all my interviews with my guests, the first question I always love to ask is if you could be the patron saint of anything, what would it be and why?

Well, as I was saying to you earlier, the, uh, the fact is you never get to choose that your patron is saying to something somebody else chooses that chooses that if they find your life motivating for them. And the only thing I think I could ever motivate anybody's life for would be suffering. And so that would be the one I would, I would say, I've been working on that problem for five or six years now. And, uh, I think I've helped some people and, um, I think that might be motivation for them to.

to afford. 100% Yeah, and it kind of segues perfect into because your background is something I think our guests and our listeners need to hear too, because it's definitely led right into this work that you're doing. So the book, I didn't even mention it. So the book that was just released today, again, this is January 16 is Heaven's Currency, a study of love. But it's actually the culmination of basically a three part series, if you will.

James Caldwell (04:45.514)
Dr. Paul, and please expand on, you know, Heaven's Currency and your background as well, which led to these three books that you wrote. Well, it's very surprising that I ever wrote any of these books because I started out as an engineer with IBM, developing microchips. Pretty far afield from moral theology. I had a dream one day that I should start teaching to teachers, and I was a catechist at the time. So I thought that it meant I was going to teach moral theology to...

people. I got a master's in religious education at Fordham University and got accepted for a PhD at Catholic University in 2015. I had just done all the things necessary to do that. So I quit my job, sold my house, bought a house, accepted the position at Catholic University only to be diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.

So I, and the doctor there said, don't worry. It's not a problem. You're gonna have at least five or six good years left at a six year program for the doctor alone. So that wasn't very, very comforting. But the first day that I came down here to Washington, I grew up in Washington and.

James Caldwell (06:05.89)
I bought a house for my brother and I took my mother in. She was 84 years old at the time and she was starting to suffer from dementia. I had gone to a neurologist who I picked up the internet and the first thing she asked me was, what do I do? And I said, well, I'm gonna be studying theology at Catholic University. She says, oh, then you know why people suffer. I said, no, I don't have any idea why people suffer.

James Caldwell (06:34.306)
uh, course to study, but, uh, but she was very convincing. She told me that, that every doctor gets asked this question every time, multiple times a day and that she wanted the answers. She couldn't get anybody to give her the answer. So I should study it. And it just, it just kind of turned out that I had, I had, uh, had a background of a lot of suffering. I had open heart surgery twice. I had a paralyzed left arm for six weeks. I had one of those, one of those things. I got, uh,

I was nauseous for 20 years because I got Episodes of C out of one of the last trans seizures out of one of those operations. Oh my gosh. And so I've lived a suffering life. And so she was convincing and I started studying that and I got, everything kept just falling in place so I could do it. And...

I got the first book, Why All People Suffer, published by Sophia Press in 2021. And it led into the second book, which is Dying Without Fear, which was a natural extension of that, as my mother passed away and on Mother's Day, actually, 2022. And my Parkinson's symptoms got more and more extreme. And so, you know, I started feeling that too.

And so that motivated me to write Dying Without Fear. Then coming out of that, my son says to me, well, you gotta write something more than suffering and death because it's too negative. You gotta think of something positive. So I said, all right, well, let's try love and as one of the other mysteries, you know, everybody, it's just as mysterious as suffering and death because not everybody understands it, but, and they are so intertwined, it's unbelievable.

So, I went live to the other and I wrote this book and it just came out today. So, that's what we impressed today. So, made it Amazon. Well, what a journey, Dr. Paul, that you have experienced from, again, working at IBM, to, hey, I'm gonna shift my career trajectory to obviously being diagnosed with Parkinson's and just the inspiration that you are to write these three books. Because again, I think it's...

James Caldwell (08:56.606)
I mentioned a little bit earlier, I think it's a topic that is so misunderstood. And I told you off the air too, you know, I think growing up Protestant, the only thing that was really talked about with suffering is that you should basically pray it away, so to speak. You know, it's, you know, cause we're all going to face suffering at one point to tell you everybody suffers in one way or another, but kind of the only answer is just to pray it away. And you know, the, you know, the Catholic understanding, you can speak to this more than, than most.

is, you know, what is the, forgive me if this is worded poorly, but I guess what is the purpose of suffering and is there actually greater good that can come from our suffering? Well, there's four tasks of suffering, I'll say. The first task is to prove, to take you from vice to virtue and teach you better self-love. And that's just the natural feedback loops that you get.

You know, if you eat, drink too much, you get a hangover, that kind of thing. It motivates you not to do that kind of thing. It motivates you not to do that. And then, um, the second task is to, uh, build to the first where it shows you that, uh, suffering is actually, that avoiding suffering is actually following God's will. And so, uh, it helps you learn love of God and doing God's will. The third task is to, uh,

to unleash our love of the neighbor, showing our empathy and solidarity to those who suffer. And the final one is redemptive, which is to send our love enough to suffer for our neighbors, just like Christ did on the cross. And that's what we talk about sometimes as giving it up to God. And I'll tell you that giving it up to God means that you are accepting that you're suffering for somebody else's benefit, even though you don't know who that benefit is.

Because every suffering is every bit of suffering is done for the benefit of somebody and What people get it wrong is that they don't understand that God has a long game he's worried about eternal life He's not worried about you know Suffering in this lifetime, it's just it's always shortened You know, it might seem like a long time, but that's really short and comparative eternity

James Caldwell (11:25.122)
So God is willing to use suffering to teach us different things about love and the four tasks of love and all that to bring us to salvation from sin to salvation. That's why we suffer. We suffer because as Saint John Paul II said in

James Caldwell (11:51.658)
It's not, it's not, it's not the evil itself. It's just the feeling you get. So when you're exposed to something that, that is hurtful to you, you recognize that as a negative feeling so that you avoid it because it was a positive feeling you wouldn't write. And so it has to be a negative feeling. It has to be, it has to be strong enough that, uh, and consistent enough that it will dissuade you from, from pursuing that evil.

as opposed to the good that you lack. And so suffering demonstrates love, God's love for you. And so I don't believe that you can actually achieve heaven if you don't suffer.

James Caldwell (12:41.386)
And what do you mean by that? Well, because you need to know, you need to, uh, experience evil in this life. So that you don't, that you can avoid it. That's because God is, God is, uh, wants you to, uh, to, to lead the good life and not, and not evil. And so if you don't experience evil and you don't know what it is, then, uh,

then you won't be able to avoid it and you won't. See, death and the four last things, judgment, death, judgment, heaven and hell, are all motivators toward doing the right thing, toward love. And so that's the interplay between suffering, death and love is that the two other suffering and death lead to love. And Dr. Paul, because this...

concept is very, I guess, hard for people to grapple too, is, you know, because the common question obviously is, you know, if God is all-powerful, if God is all-loving, why does he allow the suffering? And I think something that people often—oh, go ahead. I'll let you jump in on that. Yeah, so to jump in on that, I'd say that people—I just said a minute ago that people don't see the long game.

that God is worried about our salvation and he's not worried about all the little things in between that. He uses those things to help us get salvation. And I can give you, you know, if you throw out an example, I'll tell you. Please do. So just, you know, like the first question I was ever asked on one of these interviews was, how do you explain to my friend an atheist why her infant son got cancer?

And I said to her, well, the reason that young children have disabilities or things like that, is that they are put on the, everybody is put on this earth for a purpose. That person's, that young person's purpose is to teach love to the parents and to those around them. And they will do that. Inevitably, the sick infant will be loved by their parents and by the...

James Caldwell (15:11.214)
by the outside them and they will teach them to love better. And then they will pass away. That said, I mean they're suffering. They're like mortars for their parents. And parents learn to suffer with them too. So they will also get redemptive suffering out of this. So it elevates them all. Everybody involved with it. Toward heaven.

And yes, it's painful and yes, it's emotionally painful and it's emotionally draining and it's physically painful too. But in the end, if all the people involved get to heaven, that is way worth it. Amen. The more souls we can get to heaven, the better it's gonna be. But yeah, there's this concept too. I know when I was becoming Catholic, my wife would talk about, you know, offer up your struggle.

offer it up for someone. Because you touched on that a little bit. And I wanted to ask you if you could further explain what that actually means. Because, you know, you touched on it again, like I said, a little bit, and how we how united we actually are in the body of Christ. And so, because again, what like you said, when you suffer, you don't know who you are helping. So maybe expand on that kind of concept a little bit of uniting your suffering in order to aid somebody else.

Well, every person suffers for their benefit or for the benefit of somebody else. Nobody suffers for no reason. Okay. You have to trust in that and believe that God would not allow suffering if it did benefit somebody. Now the offering up the suffering is that you don't always know the person that is benefiting from your suffering. You don't even know if it's for you, but having the faith that the

that offering it up will accept, that you're accepting the suffering, that it will benefit other people, even if you don't know who that person is, you're accepting it. And that's a big step in terms of your willingness to suffer and for it to be redemptive. And that term redemptive suffering, do you mind explaining on that a little bit as well? So redemptive suffering is...

James Caldwell (17:34.678)
when you are willing to suffer for the benefit of somebody else. So it's redeeming for you as the sufferer, and it helps the person that you're helping as well. So that's that Jesus died on the cross, right? He was suffering for the benefit not for himself but for the benefit of all the sinners, right? Well, just because he was an ornery dude, right? So...

So that's what it is. It's following Christ to suffer for other people, for their benefit. That's the highest form of love.

Yeah, I mean, gosh, Jesus, I mean, the ultimate sacrifice, the all loving God became man to die for us. I mean, what else could you really? And that's a perfect example and suffer and what sorry. And it's very harmonious death too, right? And you suffer a regular cross. Yes, 100%. Yeah. And I think too, I mean, I just think, you know, because I think a lot of people think, well, you know, God wants me to be happy.

you know, especially like the prosperity gospel. And that's what I'm thinking when it comes to buying. He doesn't want it to be happy. He wants to be happy forever. Yes, exactly. And that's what you said is that he God's always thinking of eternally, right? Eternally. And it's not happy on Earth because this isn't our home. Like, this is just a temporary stop to, you know, for most of us, obviously, we want to go to heaven. But obviously, there's the counter to that, which is hell, which is, you know, permanent, permanence away from God. Well, you know,

I've got a good comment on this one because when we think about going to heaven, the question is whether we're going to heaven to be with God or to be in a nicer place. And you don't get there if you think it's being in a nicer place. That was the story of the prodigal son when he comes back to his father.

James Caldwell (19:36.186)
It's because he's suffering and then and it brings him back to his father. But he's coming back only not because he wants to be with his father not because he He's very surprised that his father comes back and gives him a hug You know, he's ready to disown as far as his sonship He doesn't care about his father. He only wants the comfort

And that's a message for us all. So we wanted the comfort then. There was a poll taken that I talked about in the book that about how many people believe in heaven and hell. And it turns out that over half the people that believe in heaven only want to be there because it's a nice place, not because they believe in God. They didn't even mention God. And so it's.

I'm sorry, I was gonna say how interesting is like, what do you think heaven is then? Well, I think heaven is being with God and it's the order, it's God's orderliness that makes it heaven. That he has rules that make everything work and fit together and make everybody, it makes everybody work together. Hell is the opposite, it has no rules, there's no order.

And what people don't recognize is that they want everything free. They want to be able to do everything they want. Well, if they do everything they want, that's going to interfere with what everybody else is doing, everything they want. And that's just going to cause extreme havoc and chaos. It's like, it's like a road without traffic laws. There's no way you're going to get to the end of that road.

Yeah, that's always my pushback to people who say like, why does the Catholic Church have so many rules and regulations and rules to follow or whatever? And it's like, okay, in every other part of your life, you have rules that you wanna follow. If you play sports, there's rules to the game. If you didn't have rules, and you wanted just whatever they want, and it'd be utter chaos, and nobody would have a goal to accomplish. But no, that's exactly right. It's the order and having that oraliness is what...

James Caldwell (21:43.582)
heaven is going to be because we're all going to be obviously looking to God in the presence of God. So, oh go ahead. So the only kind of evil that's sinful is disorder. Right? Physical evil, actual evil, they're not, you know, whether a storm blows or someone gets sick, those aren't evil. They're not

sinful, it's just disorder that's sinful. Right, right. Choosing the lesser good over a greater good. Yeah, so Dr. Paul, shifting gears here a little bit, obviously a man such as yourself who has clearly been through a lot, is continuing to go through a lot, what, I guess what would be your advice to people who are listening who maybe are really suffering right now? Because like I said, everyone's suffering, it just depends on the degree. I guess what helps you get through?

Um, clearly discomfort is associated with Parkinson's disease and everything else that is associated with that. Well, for me, it's because I'm able to help other people. I teach, I teach at my parish and I teach at Catholic University. I write these books. I do these interviews. So, so it's a way for me to be able to, to get the other people to understand that it's all about the long game, not the short game. And, uh,

And so what gets me through is that I can help other people and also that it is a long game. So, is that fine? You find that satisfying? Yes, no, I do, 100%. Yeah, it's, because I think it's so hard for people who maybe just talk about it abstractly, you know, versus.

you know, seeing it in themselves or seeing somebody but you, like I said, clearly someone who's been through a thing or two, to say the least, and who still has this hope, still has this love, and is teaching other people about that. I think that just speaks volume to you personally, Dr. Paul. An example for all of us as well is that, again, like we've talked about several times now is we're all going to experience suffering at one point, but then it's how are we going to

James Caldwell (24:03.11)
unite that to the foot of the cross, unite it to Christ, because again, Christ suffered tremendously for us more than we could ever possibly imagine or know. And that's because he loved us. I think that always goes back to that, that concept, you know, that love, you know, and what is love? And then you mentioned the four types of love, and maybe we can kind of shift a conversation more towards that is, you know, what is love? And let's kind of expand on that.

topic a little bit because I know there's so many things we can talk about with that concept. Right. Well, love is a bonding with the loved and it started by God, it's infused by God. God infuses love with you and you are, love is a capability, not a commodity. It's not like coins. You can't spend it and lose it. It's like strength where you

you exercise it, the more you exercise it, the stronger it is and if you don't use it, you lose it. Right? And so love is infused upon you and you have the opportunity. You can't cause anybody to love you, but you can turn away love. You can disavow love and that's a detriment to you.

and also to your partners. Now love, it comes in all kinds of relationships. It comes in marriage, it comes in brotherly love, it comes in parental love, even flirtation and self-love. And all these things are known to the Greeks and are embedded in Greek languages with specific words.

And so I go through all those and try to describe how that love is consistent with infused love. And you have to demonstrate your willingness to suffer for someone else. You have to be willing to self-sacrifice for it to really be love. And love is the only thing that you can take with you when you die. And so it's very interesting because if you are...

James Caldwell (26:25.206)
dying and you have a lot of money. You can turn that money into love by donating it to the poor and doing that kind of thing. You can do that. Most people don't, but you can. You can turn your earthly assets into love and into eternal assets by giving them away to people that need them. That's a very good thing to do for someone who is dying because once they die, they can't use it anymore.

Somebody will either use it for waste of their way or will actually give it away to somebody else and do what they should have done.

So just a question that came up when you said that, why do you think it is people who, like you said, who are dying and they know they're dying and they, I guess, refuse or don't want to turn it into something loving? Is that, do you feel like that would be like a pride? Is that a pride thing that, or like, this is mine, this is what I earn, this is what I deserve, and no one else gets to have it? I guess, I mean,

I'm just kind of spitballing. Why do you think that is? Well, because... Because they don't know.

They don't know what the benefit of love is. And they don't know that they can spend their money to get love. They've never thought about charity. They've never thought about in their lives. They've only considered yourselves. Right. And one of the things that really surprised me when I was going through the book on love, heaven's currency, was that when I got into thinking about it and studying it, I found that people were not people who were self-centered, were not afraid of death and were not. I mean, we're.

James Caldwell (28:12.402)
They do not consider hell as a native thing, because they weren't...

James Caldwell (28:26.038)
they would be able to manipulate and do their self-centered stuff without being watched by God, right? And they weren't motivated by self-giving love. They didn't wanna self-give. Yeah, which is so sad because, I mean, when it comes down to it, everything has been given to us anyways. Like we haven't earned anything. We don't deserve anything. Everything could be taken away from us. And I mean, it just go back to Job as always, as-

You know, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. I mean, that's all we really can do because we, I mean, the fact that we are just having this conversation that we're breathing, we're alive. I mean, we don't, we haven't earned that. You know, it's all just a gift from God. And I think when we- People don't recognize that. Yeah. I mean, I often forget that too, you know, and it's so easy to get caught up in the, you know, the, the day in day out grind, but if you just take a step back and you, you know-

just listen to God's voice. I mean, everything is just, we're not guaranteed everything, anything. I think the more we reflect on that, I think it'd be hugely beneficial for most of our society as we can see how it is right now. This is where suffering comes in, because people who don't suffer don't notice that anything's missing. And then too, they don't notice their fellow man suffering. Right. Because they're like, well, I'm doing fine, and I'm great.

So, Ivernowus must be great too. It's almost like blinders are on them. Well, no, you're right. They're suckers or something, right? Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. Or they deserve that. They probably messed something up or didn't have the education or something like that. Right, they don't work hard enough. Yeah, exactly. So, Dr. Paul, I mean, this is obviously a topic that I know you weren't really expecting to dive into. So, you've done tons of research on it. What, I guess, would you say is the most

surprising or finding that you had or the most depressing and the most hopeful thing that you found in all of your years of research in this topic of suffering? Well, what I just told you was most surprising. Then I figured out that self-centered people aren't really deterred by the threat of hell or motivated by the promises of heaven because they don't...

James Caldwell (30:52.034)
fit that need. And that was surprising to me. And it was just depressing too because as you can see that there's lots of people that feel that way.

And they think that there's things that are right too. But since and everything too. So right. And a lot of times, you know, the, the sense of omission are big problems, right? Yes. Because you're not showing love to your fellow man and you know, that, that's a problem for me. I don't.

I don't necessarily do that as well as I could maybe. Yeah, I think a lot of people to Dr. Paul, I mean, I know myself as well. It's something that I struggle with at times, too, is because you think if you're not actually doing something, then it's not maybe as sinful. But like, no, even if you avoid or you stop yourself from doing something, that also can be a sin as well. So, yeah, that's a really good point. I don't want to ask you, Dr. Paul, on St.

which I always found fascinating. And she said, I'm going to butcher the quote probably, but she said, if angels could envy, they would envy us for two reasons. She said, it would be for the Eucharist, being able to consume the body and blood of Christ and the ability for us to suffer. And I'm sure you've came across that quote many times in our researches as well. I just wanted to get kind of your opinion on, on her quote and why do you think she said our ability to suffer is something that angels would envy?

Well, because suffering shows you what you need. It shows you what you need. You know, if you're lonely, you know you need companionship. If you're hungry, you know you need food. If you've eaten too much, you know you feel stuffed. And all those things show you what you need and what you don't need. And that's a great gift of God to let you have those feelings, to let you know that you need something.

James Caldwell (32:58.41)
Yeah, I always just found that quote so fascinating. I'm glad I finally asked somebody about it. But yeah, I mean, this again, the ability for us to suffer is something I think we take for granted even, because again, we just want to wish it away. It's like, oh, I don't like this pain. And of course, somebody likes to be in pain. Nobody likes to suffer, but recognizing that it can be a great benefit for us or for someone else as well. Well, the reason why it's painful, right, is because if it wasn't painful, you'd be gravitate toward the evil. So it's a thing that you don't need to have. Right.

You don't want that. No. So it has to be, it's like a fire alarm. A fire alarm is a nasty, it's a nasty sound and it tells you that you want to get away from it, but that's for your protection. Yes, 100%. Now, Dr. Paul, for those of you who are, any of our listeners who are maybe struggling now, what would be your words of advice or hope for them?

Whatever they're struggling about, it depends, right? But the thing is to have faith in God. You know, God in the parable of the prodigal son is waiting for us. He, no matter what we've done, he's waiting for us and he loves us and he wants us back. Believe in that. And I mean, God blends perfectly mercy and love. He, mercy and justice, I should say. He doesn't...

He will give you he will be merciful if you forgive if you ask for forgiveness But he will not demand it It's just as it will be if you don't ask for your forgiveness, then you will be see you will go to hell and That's the justice part of it, but those two things are perfectly mad you give it to you and therefore Just ask for help He's always waiting right

Just like the prodigal son, he's always waiting for us with open arms. Always waiting. Yeah. Yeah, the gift of reconciliation when I became Catholic has always been the biggest blessing, I think, joining the church is reconciliation because it just, you can just feel or sense God's grace just being poured upon you. And because it's so hard to go, I mean, every time it's so hard, like nobody wants to say these things out loud, but...

James Caldwell (35:15.03)
that the amount of grace that is given after you make a good confession is just something you can't really describe in my opinion. It's an important message to continue to give to your audience that going to confession is important and will be beneficial to your soul. It may be hard, but it's not really hard because the priest will be pulling for you the whole way and he will tell you how to do it if you don't know how to do it.

They are encouraged by long-going people who haven't gotten a confession in a while, and they come in. So you should be willing to do that, and that'll make your ride to heaven a lot quicker. Amen. Yeah, it's, you know, I, because I, Father Dom is a priest I'm close with, and he says, I love the best confessions on the ones that are like, I haven't been to confession in 25 years.

40 years, 50 years, I've been away from the church for 70 years, and they come in confession. And he's like, I love it. Because then it's because you can just you can just sense like it's a grind. And then, you know, he's helping them. And he's asking them questions and probing and, you know, he can just see like the relief coming from the individual. And it's been that long. And he's like, Oh, yeah, those are by far the best just because, again, it's such a gift. God gives us so many gifts, so many graces, and we just need

to use them day after day, time after time, because we're all falling. Well, the thing is that we don't often recognize those gifts. No, we do not. Yes. And confession. And they're all unrelated, and all part of God's plan. It's a really great plan when it all fits together. Amen.

Well, Dr. Paul, thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it. Give our audience where they can find this book and do you have any works coming in the future as well that you're working on? Well, these three books, Why All People Suffer, Dying Without Fear and Heaven's Currency are all available from Sophia Press. They're also available at any Catholic book store. They're available through Amazon, except they're just sold out at Amazon, but.

James Caldwell (37:25.662)
I will put links in the show notes for you guys as well for all of Dr. Paul's titles and I'll put links to Sophia Press. Right. I'm trying to write a book more narrative than theology for the next one, but it's been difficult so far. Well, I'm sure it's hard to shift from what you were doing for three books and kind of shifting genres so to speak. And I'm sure that can be a taxing on the brain so to speak.

Well, it's interesting. Yeah. Well, again, Dr. Paul, thank you so much and God bless you and the work that you're doing. And I really appreciate your time. And thank you all so much for listening as well. So until next time, go out there and be a saint. Thank you.