290. Escaping the Chains: A Former Jehovah's Witness Exposes Cult's Manipulation and Emotional Abuse - Scott Homan

Kara Goodwin: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the meditation conversation, the podcast to support your spiritual revolution. I'm your host, Kara Goodwin. And today I'm joined by Scott Homan.

Scott Homan: Scott was raised in the fiercely DIY north woods of Wisconsin, deep in the wild of the 

Kara Goodwin: great lakes region. He and their rural musician community created, Oh, the crib records where they recorded a few albums for their various bands. He ran camera and sound for a local news station and when you. And went to university for photography and digital media today. He runs banana island films, which 

 created a music documentary, Hanoi mixtape, which you can watch at Hanoi mixtape. com and witness underground is his sophomore [00:01:00] documentary which includes the witness underground podcast and a YouTube series XJW coming out. His present projects are all focused on artists, escaping cults, especially musicians. 

This is a really important topic. It can be really tricky territory to advance yourself spiritually through the teachings of a group or an organization and not fall under their control. I've had a couple of times in my own experience, not counting traditional religion. Where I've had to extract myself from an organization that I realized was actually repressing me instead of liberating me, as I thought they were doing. 

Our spiritual growth is delicate and we are very vulnerable as we look to others who. We believe are further along in their development, which may or may not be true. It can be hard to tell that our attention, energy and money has become tied up in something that is either no longer propelling us the way it once [00:02:00] did. 

Or that we are actually being bound by nefarious, energetic ties. Unfortunately, that really is a thing. And it's very deliberate and sneaky. We must all take responsibility for our journey and keep checking in with ourselves to make sure that we are aligned with our soul. Be diligent about asking your own higher self for signs that you're on the right path. 

Personally, when I've been in these situations myself, I was having dreams about the very people. I was entrusting with my spiritual growth, being dark and devious. And it didn't make sense at the time because it didn't match what I thought was reality. But looking back, the dreams were one of the ways my higher self was trying to get me to wake up. 

Wake up ironically. Uh, to the situation. So anyway, there is a lot of really fascinating info in this session. So let's dive in just as soon as we get a [00:03:00] quick word about my amazing partners who are helping to keep things going here on the meditation conversation. So these are things that I personally use in my everyday life. And I'm so happy to partner with these small businesses and I hope you get as much out of them as I do. Just check out my sponsor's link on Kara goodwin.com or the meditation conversation.com. And there's a link in the show notes too. And if you love this episode, as much as I do, please, please, please send it on to anyone in your life who would also be interested in it. 

Let us grow this light on the planet by sharing the high vibe content that we come across. And I also would be so grateful to you for subscribing to the podcast and rating and reviewing to. I'm sure you know, that all of these are little ways that you can help support the show. Thank you so much and enjoy this episode. 

Kara Goodwin: So welcome Scott. I'm so excited that you're here and [00:04:00] we get to have this conversation today.

Scott Homan: Thanks Cara. I'm excited. Thanks for having me as well. I appreciate you highlighting Witness Underground.

Kara Goodwin: Well, I had the privilege of watching it and it's a really great, really deeply moving, documentary talking about former Jehovah's Witness cult members, specifically artists. So there are several people who are highlighted and you tell the stories and they all are artists. I believe also you come from the same background. Right.

Scott Homan: Yes. And for the audience to hear that, usually there's a lot of assumptions made that what it's like. And there's usually there is like the package, the Jehovah's Witness or the cult package. Like this is what the life is going to be like. And for most people, it's very similar. But in my case, I have a unique situation in that my dad was really going for like trying to join and become a better member and [00:05:00] rise in the hierarchy.

And my mom was very resistant to even going and being a part of it at all. So she never really joined. So we had like kind of like a dual philosophy or dual worldview household and five kids. And they're busy, both career people. So, we had quite a bit of a balance, like normal cult member would have.

Only friends in that religion and for us it was like well We only have friends outside But we're trying to like find people that are our same age in and like befriend them Like we're trying to become friends with cult members But it wasn't like very easy and there weren't that many kids so a little bit more of a balance just to like set the frame of like my Experience with it,

Kara Goodwin: Well, that's, I appreciate you saying that because I wanted to hear what your experience was because you are in the background, like you're not, you created this film, but you're not really in it.

And so I wondered why that was, you know, I figured there was some sort of. Designed to that. 

Scott Homan: Part of it. Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. So I, there are a lot of different kinds of documentary [00:06:00] styles in the last century. There was a lot of education types of documentaries and then there was like show hosts who would talk about themselves as a documentary and they call that a document as many styles, right?

And then there's ones that are like a TV news host that would like describe, look at what we're seeing here on the street. And very like po point of view cam style. And then there's many other kinds. And I wanted to do something that didn't have me in it. 'cause I thought I could do a more compelling story, make a more compelling story if I wasn't, it wasn't about me.

I wanna do something that was deep and like, resonated with the voices of people who went through it that you're going to see on camera, that you're gonna see in the archival films that you're gonna listen to with their archival music.

And you're going to follow their journey, like humanize the cult member experience. Take you on a journey of them exiting and then like, how did they do it? Like, how did they get out? How did they land on the outside?

Kara Goodwin: Yes. And you do that so beautifully. And so did you not feel, from your personal [00:07:00] experience, did you feel that you rode that same wave to any extent where you, was there like an extraction part where you kind of awakened out of

what your dad was going through or, 

Scott Homan: yeah. I definitely had my, my, my story's very parallel to theirs and also contemporary. Like we had the, not only was it similar in that I made music and I was adjacent to this religion and in it to some degree in a lot of ways. Like I did believe quite a bit of it. Like they hooked me as a teenager.

But some things I was very, skeptical of, which they don't accept skepticism at all. It's not acceptable to be a skeptic or question anything that they teach you. You just have to accept it all 100% or you're kicked out. So I somehow rode this, fine line where the people in the movie weren't really doing that.

They were waking up in their own personal ways but keeping it quiet where I was very, Like, I don't agree with this. And I left it as a teenager, but then like went back like half halfway. Anyway, my, I like to say that my film is [00:08:00] autobiographical in that my story is captured in there and I told it in such a way that is, it's basically my experience, but there's is captured on film and with audio and in there they're coming out music or they're like.

They're leaving the Jehovah's Witness experience albums that they produced, which I did not do that. I didn't make a, I'm a tortured artist who's been oppressed by an authoritarian regime on the level of 1984 and Orwell or North Korea. 

I didn't make those albums. So it was like, I wanted to really like focus on them. It was nice to have a separation between my experience. Cause it's pretty traumatic to go through something like that, a waking up thing. And anyone can go through that, not just from a cult experience. You can have that with just. Society like, Oh, the pattern is go to college and get a job and be a slave to in a career you hate until you retire.

And then you might get to enjoy yourself in this paradise when you're in your sixties or later like that. When you were like, wait, I could actually do something else outside of that system. Like that could be a [00:09:00] waking up moment for somebody that could be just as profound and have the same kind of.

Chemical experience for you or worldview shifting experience. 

Kara Goodwin: Yeah, or the government is not the helpful big brother that I thought it's not going to save me, like I

Scott Homan: right, 

Kara Goodwin: you know? Yeah. 

Scott Homan: And that's been really surprising to have different outside perspectives. There's, it's, there's a lot bigger audience than just cult members for this movie or ex cult members. And a lot of people who've seen it at the film festivals, we went through like 11 festivals.

They would often respond like, Oh, I had a similar experience with the startup world. I had a similar experience in the, you know, fill in the blank. It could even be the healing, spiritual world. Like someone could have an experience like that there or waking up and then joining the spiritual world.

And it's like, everyone has a whole different way of seeing. They're a personal experience in the world and themselves 

 I've been loving that.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah, that's fantastic. And, I mean, it's, awakening from anything is hard, but it is so fulfilling as well, and it [00:10:00] can really catapult you into a new level in your life. So it's. It's really helpful to see examples of people like going through it and coming out the other side and, it's so important that we hear stories like that to help propel into getting into the, cause it takes courage, you know, to come outside and not be comfortable anymore.

And, your film does such a super job of painting the picture of what it is like to leave something that's been so fundamental and foundational to every aspect of somebody's life. So, in the case of the people in the film, not only were their religious beliefs shaken, So they not only have to. Decide like, wait, these religious beliefs that have been foundational to the way that I have believed that the world and is constructed and that life and after life is constructed is wrong, [00:11:00] but then they're also exiled from not only their entire community, but their families. One of the people was married. And said to his wife, I don't believe this anymore. And she left and he's never seen her again. Like they've got divorced, but he's never seen her in person. They have no schooling. They're discourage from getting higher education. So their job, the jobs that they're able to have are very limited. I think that I even remember that one person like started a blog trying to disseminate why this stuff is not true and what they're being fed is wrong. And, somebody like came up to him who was a good friend of his while he was in Jehovah's witness. And then. Hadn't like talked to him since.

And the guy kind of whispered to him, I've been reading your blog, or I always read your blog or something like that, but he's still in it, which I think was such a, another powerful way to show just how. Much [00:12:00] courage it takes to walk out because it's really like the whole structure of your life There's a choice that's made where it's like this. I have to live in the truth This isn't truth and I'm willing to let everything else Collapse so that I can be in my truth and I can be an integrity and I just really applaud anybody who has been in that situation, but I can't imagine the torment of trying to decide if you should take that leap and reclaim your life or stay in the comfort of what you've always known. What for you was the choice point like, like that? It sounds like you had. Always been a little bit like, I don't know, I kind of, yes, kind of know, but. Did you feel like you had to take a leap and dismantle, or because you kind of had a foot in each boat, it was not so [00:13:00] difficult?

Scott Homan: a couple moments of having to make a stand and one of them was emotional when I was a teenager still, 19, and it's there's a lot of moments like that. Even that moment can be important for most people in the American culture. Like you get out of the house, you go and do your own thing and like, who are you?

What do you love? Like, what are you focusing your time on? And I just didn't go. I moved out. I went on a big trip with some high school buddies. We went skateboarding on the West coast for a month and camping and like city stuff. We were just like seeing the world and you know, year 2000. And then came back and I had them drop me off in Madison where I knew some also ex witnesses.

And we didn't think of ourselves that way. We were just like, Oh, we're people and we know each other. And I lived with them for like half a year and worked there. And I like, I didn't go to church, their, they call it, they don't call it church, but I didn't go to their church at all during that time.

And I was just, I'd read some literature that was like about shunning and it really affected me because it was like, here's a family, like an elder and his wife and their kids. all left the religion [00:14:00] or did something, they broke a rule or something, but like they got completely cut off from their families.

And I read this whole pamphlet about it and I was like, wow, that's, I know that's how it works. Like I've, I have done that to other people in the religion, even my own cousins on my mom's side who joined, the religion and One cousin and I didn't like that feeling and I saw people breaking that rule secretly and then like I had friends that got kicked out and in my own band that were like two different people one left and one got kicked out and it was like They won't talk to me because they think they're not supposed to there would be some phone call randomly like in a desperate moment emotionally like reaching out and I would answer the phone because I had like I just didn't, it didn't agree with me anyway.

So I like, I left the religion at that time period, but I didn't really log 

Kara Goodwin: pamphlet, 

Scott Homan: Yeah. It affected me. And I was like, this isn't right. Something's wrong about this thing. And it's always been wrong. And I've always seen it and had a, like a reaction to it that was like, this isn't okay. And then I went back to it, but on my own terms, like I had this big heart to heart with my [00:15:00] dad about it because it's his religion essentially.

Kara Goodwin: And your dad's still in it?

Scott Homan: Yeah, from what I heard, I haven't talked, so I have a disconnection from my family, but he's now like an elder, like at the higher ups of the local congregation. I heard he's like the presiding overseer, which is the leader of all the elders,

Kara Goodwin: Oh, wow.

Scott Homan: which it's like so outside of his personality, but who knows who he is.

They call it putting on the new personality so like assume these positions of power and control and be a proper cult member don't be yourself like it shed off the they call it shedding the old personality and putting on the new one so like just tears away who you truly are and your authenticity to like become This role and embody 

Kara Goodwin: It's almost like you can picture like somebody at a keyboard, like, okay, let me program in who I'm going to be now,

Scott Homan: Like what avatar will I put on?

Kara Goodwin: yeah, to satisfy what these people want from me, you know,

Scott Homan: Do you ever see the Duncan Trussell, series on Netflix? It's called Midnight [00:16:00] Gospel. It's so abstract and amazing. it starts out basically like there's this person in an alternate reality who's living in this sort of hilly trailer park, but inside he has this like weird AI, Transport device where he like sticks his head in this big thing and he like chooses a planet and like an experience and an avatar and he like is transported to this other planet.

And he's like a walking rainbow. And like, he's having a conversation with the president of that alternate reality about, existentialism. Meanwhile, there's like a zombie apocalypse and it's like the most abstract crazy, 

Kara Goodwin: Oh my gosh. 

Scott Homan: good and in a way, when you say like the programming or like the AI or the avatar, like. In a dark, much darker sense, like when you join a religion like this, they want you to, they want to shape you into a thing, into a position and then groom you for that.

Meanwhile, if you misspeak, they will teach you the right way to speak and they'll punish you for misspeaking. people are always like trying to get into the next position above. And to do that, they push someone [00:17:00] down or call someone out or like expose someone's missteps or sins.

It's a very strange, very Orwellian, like dystopian reality. And I want people to know how dangerous it is. it's a theme with the movie, like shunning is evil and it destroys your neighbor's lives. Like it's not just like some abstract thing in some other community.

And there's programming and the people that are in it are, they're the real victims. Like the people that are in it are trapped. Yes, I'm suffering from not having a relationship with my family for 15 years. Four siblings, both parents, my grandparents, 

Kara Goodwin: Even your mom has shunned you?

Scott Homan: Yeah, she's toeing the line of the religion now.

Like, she wasn't in the past, but now she's like 

Kara Goodwin: Really, even when it comes to her own child, 

Scott Homan: This is the darkness of it all. you'll never talk to your kids again until someone dies. that's disconnect completely. And they force them, they coerce them. Because if they talk to me, that's a sin against God. And they might lose their access to the afterlife. And if they, if someone turns them in, or someone [00:18:00] finds out that they're doing it, they could get kicked out and get treated that way for the rest of their life.

they just put this huge wall up if they're in that religion. Because they can't risk the social, the immediate social ramifications of having a conversation with someone they love. And to feel okay with that, because it's actually like an act of hate. Like they are considered a hate group in some countries because of this exact thing.

Like in Belgium, they just lost their first criminal case. Against them by people like myself who are outside of their religion, sued the religion and they won against the Jehovah's Witnesses. And now they're considered like a hate group in Belgium, 

They're banned for this exact thing in Norway, not banned. They're defunded because the Germanic countries like give taxpayer money to religions. So they don't get that anymore. So that's a brand new thing. That's really great. Iceland's working on that. Sweden's working on that. Denmark's talking about it.

Germany might. Like there's a whole like cascading thing that's happening because of shunning. And so that's what the film is about to bring it back, 

Kara Goodwin: Well, you talk about the shunning and you're the people in the film do share their [00:19:00] experiences of that. And one of the most striking things is the level of compassion that the shunned have for the people who are still in it. And you basically said it's the people who are in it. And they have their reasons for it. And I understand why, and my heart goes out to them because even though this really very hurtful thing has happened from the people who are like the closest, you know, our survival instinct is we should be able to always have a relationship with our parents.

that's kind of like how we, our whole fabric of society works. Like you should be able to always count on the love of your parents. And, 

Scott Homan: and usually they want to be in your life or like know what's going on with you just as a, they're not maybe supporting you or financially like funding your existence anymore. We're cooking you meals, but like they want to know what's going on. like interested in you as a human being.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah. But the level of compassion that I was seeing with, one person after another, like [00:20:00] I, it's a really hurtful thing that's happened and. I don't necessarily fault them for it, even though there is some responsibility, everybody has their own responsibility, but if you're not like to that level where you have awakened to your free will, and you're not exercising your free will, and you're still programmed and there was, that was a really beautiful thing.

And, I really highlighted the content of the character of the. The people who are going through it, you know, that they could still extend that

Scott Homan: I appreciate that about them, but I wanted to highlight, and that is the sort of the final message is like, we love these people. We don't want anything bad to happen to them. They're in a really tricky situation that We were exactly in that situation. So like we don't have to put ourselves in their shoes.

We were in those exact shoes. And we totally have love for those people. They are doing this thing that could be regarded as [00:21:00] hate crimes or, human rights violations, But they're just individuals trying to make their own choices for their own reasons. And it just so happens that one of those choices has to be, according to their situation, never to talk And.

It sucks, but at some point it's like you have to mourn the loss of relationships that the other person in the relationship doesn't want and move forward with your life. there's nothing I can do to change how someone else acts in their life towards me or others. It's their own choices.

They, those choices suck, especially at the beginning. It's like so insulting to realize that your parents are like, I'm afraid of this uneducated person who's in a higher position than me and what they will do to my future and my, like, access to my God if I talk to you. So my fear is in the way of my love and I'll never talk to you again.

And to have that happen as, like, a [00:22:00] cohesive whole from an entire group of people that are super, super close to me my whole life is so insulting and, also a bit embarrassing. Because it's like... Don't you have any of your own agency or like, are you in touch with who you are like deep down or your own soul or do you have love because you're acting in fear?

And then at some point it's like, okay, this is just like their standard mode, like they're programmed now to act this way and they have their entire community that's still inside the faith 

Kara Goodwin: that's 

Scott Homan: telling them that this is the right thing to do. for love. This is the way to get me to come back to them through this, emotional punishment, this emotional abuse structure we've designed.

Like this is the only way back to God for me. So they're like manipulated to act this way.

So that's the dangerous thing about this cult that, and there's other things that are even like illegal that they're doing, but a lot of other people are talking about that.

Kara Goodwin: Really? okay, so I have to say, like, I didn't know any of this about Jehovah's Witnesses. I went to school [00:23:00] with some Jehovah's Witnesses and I remember asking them, their beliefs a little bit. I just remember being in drama class or something and we had some free time and I was like, so what is it?

Cause they had like even come to my house just cause I was on their route, you know? And I didn't understand what was happening at that time where I opened the door. I'm like, Oh my goodness. And I thought like we were going to play or something, you know? And I'm like, Oh, I thought they just stopped by.

And then they like wanted to leave a pamphlet or something. I didn't. Even understand at that time, what a Jehovah's witness was. I just always thought it was a religion and not so far as what, as what you're talking about. And you and I have met in person briefly at a podcasting seminar. And you shared with me a little bit about the focus of your work and your podcast. And I was like, Oh, this would be perfect for my podcast because, Because, you know, spirituality and cults, like those things can definitely go hand in hand. But I had never understood, Jehovah's Witnesses to be cults. And you gave [00:24:00] like your, some examples of cults that was like, what, like these could be cult types of things. And they were like societal things. I don't know. I would love to get your. definition of cult.

Like, where do you see this happening outside of what we typically know of, like, white robed, like, sacrificing things and,

Scott Homan: What I've realized is that the are human nature on some level to build and create these kinds of structures and cults are deeply hierarchical, but we've also designed lots of hierarchies and other parts of society that everyone accepts as normal. And some of the themes like getting shunned is being a dangerous thing that I'm saying.

It also exists even in your average corporate job. Like you need to speak this way, act this way, dress this way. Perform at this level, and if you don't, the consequences are you're out. Not only are these people are not accessible, the [00:25:00] doorway is going to be locked, your tag won't work, your identity will be erased from our association with our group, and you will have no access to the finances that make your life work.

You can get fired, right, if you don't, if you don't toe the line. So it's not so different. In a workplace environment, what I've been working in a startup situation. I absolutely love the startup culture, but all those elements are there, but you have to add on one new thing, which is a charismatic leader, which is like the beginning of every cult is a charismatic leader.

Some guy, a visionary, someone with a, or a woman with an amazing view of like a brand new product or service or a business concept that like they're going to disrupt an entire industry. And people are like, that's amazing. We want to give this human being all of our money to invest in this thing. Here's our, here's the contract.

Here's 17 million fund. Get as many, give the, get the best workers in this space possible. Make this product in 17 months or whatever. And then we're going to change the world and we're [00:26:00] all going to make a bunch of money. And then what happens to that charismatic leader is they're the CEO. And then after their care there, they've done all their work and they've created this product or the service.

That person's out. They get booted from the CEO position, they even get booted from the board of directors half the time, and then a new person's brought in, a second person, that makes this product or this service into a functional for profit business. Cause the CEO can't do that. The CEO is the visionary or the founder and the startup world has so many cult parallels.

And the same thing, you can get kicked out and it's like, you have to walk the talk and be a positive person. And if you're not like you're out, cause like we're all running on fumes here. It's like fake money from someone else. It's not based on real. Actual providing a service to anyone yet. It might be in the future.

So that was really interesting to experience that firsthand from the inside and like the cult leaders constantly like giving misinformation to their own employees and I don't know, I found that to be so similar. And I'm a little bit like averse [00:27:00] to. Groups of any kind, because I start seeing these structures, like instantly, like, I'm like, that's the dark, dangerous thing right there.

That person is a corporate person and they're faking it. it's so obvious to me. I see it like clear as day what's happening and like people following similar roles or putting themselves in roles or being the loudest voice in every meeting, cause they want to like rise up in the structure.

And it's just human nature, but the cults have this special, like shield and protection and a way to program the minds because they have your future in the afterlife. Like your eternal, everything is controlled by them. Your access to the one, holy, super universal being of the infinite galaxy or whatever, however you want to see God or your version of a deity.

They are your path to access that person, their way of praying, their holy [00:28:00] book, their way interpreting a holy book.

One of the beautiful things to me was that the Jehovah's Witnesses are really, they'd spend a lot of time telling you why other faiths and groups and ideologies are not the path and they intellectualize the process. So it feels like you're doing real research and they're basically just poking holes.

In the way the Catholics see things, the Lutherans, and basically any other Christian group you can come up with because they Most of them fall under those categories, Protestants versus Catholics. And then when it comes to Muslims, well, of course, they forgot this and they didn't, accept this prophet.

And then with Buddhism and Jainism and other Eastern philosophies, they poke holes in that. And then all the ancients said, well, those have pantheons of God. None of those gods are real, right? We're all atheists towards those gods. So all the other gods of all the other faiths. are totally different false gods and people are wasting all their time praying to all the wrong gods and they're never going to get anything out of that.

So like when you put that lens at all those other faiths throughout your childhood. and they have [00:29:00] books on all these religions and they have like whole like, here's the 17 reasons why this isn't real. Like they're like clickbaity type titles, right? Their books are like, this false God can be debunked with this book, read it and then never think about it again.

And then, so when you find, like, if you're having a wake up moment or a doubt and you finally, like, give yourself the permission to explore that doubt or that question that you have, which they, they make you self police, they train you to never look at this information, never explore those doubts, ignore them, push them away, so you're, like, suspending your disbelief in this whole framework, and it's, like, as soon as you pull on one thread, the whole thing's, like, oh, my God, the framework's gone, it all collapses, but when you point that lens at that religion, The one that they've created that, that way of seeing the world.

If you pointed at them, the whole thing's absurd and unlike a hundred different ways. And so when people finally like do pull on that point on that one thing, or do that one Google search, or like read that one book they were not wanting to read or look at Wikipedia and what it says about evolution, for example, it's like three paragraphs and it like, Oh, that's how [00:30:00] nature works, duh.

There's hundreds of millions of people have like found evidence that this is how things happen. And they'll crumble your whole world if you read those three paragraphs because you'll realize that you've been lied to this whole time. And it's not just those three things, you know, there's like 70 other things you've already like just suspended for now to keep your whole life working.

So. It takes like one Google search and people are like, 

My whole world is crumbling and now I have to like, live a lie to have friends and family. when you were talking about someone who's still in their religion, reading this guy's blog that we discussed in the movie.

There's, in the ex former cult member world, they have what's called physically in, mentally in, that's your standard member, they call it PME, so it's like four letters, P I M I. And then you have physically in, mentally out, which is someone who is still going because they want to maintain these relationships, but they don't believe any of it, or they don't believe some of it.

And that's illegal, like you can't have thought crimes, like they're committing the ultimate thought crime, like a kick out, a bull offense.[00:31:00] I just, they call it disfellowshipping. Get rid of this person offense just for thinking. Something different than what you're supposed to think. And that's what I'm guilty of.

I'm guilty of thought crimes, and that's why I'm out of the religion. I actually left, anyway. Then there's, physically out, mentally out, which is like a fully out member. Like, they don't participate, they don't think about it, they don't believe any of it.

And that's been where I'm at since the day I was like, I'm done.

Kara Goodwin: Okay. So, for a while, you were in the physically in, but thoughts out? You were in

Scott Homan: I never really, well, I think I did that for like nine years on some level, but it's like a, it's actually, they call it, there's another one physically and mentally questioning. So it's like P I M Q. So I was like questioning since I was a teenager. I'm like, well, that doesn't really make any sense.

Like, do you really think that the guy in prison who wrote Revelation, was. They, Joe's witnesses think that he like prophesied like a church meetup that was happening in Pennsylvania in 1918 was like the prophecy fulfillment. It's like that doesn't really add up. That guy didn't even know those continents existed where these guys were hanging out, [00:32:00] let alone like, A convention, 

Kara Goodwin: Right. Right.

Scott Homan: make any sense. So for, you know, I was always like questioning that, and making a scene about it, like, do you guys really believe that? 

Kara Goodwin: And what was the temperature that you were taking when that type of thing would come up? What, did you feel alone? Did you feel like people were Oh, I don't know. It's just what they're saying or,

Scott Homan: I would have conversations about it, but it was like, dangerous waters to navigate, or it'd get shut down. They do this thing where they have a whole book on like how to preach to people door to door, like your friend in high school was doing Where if somebody at the door is like, I'm not interested.

And you're like, you're not interested in living forever. Are you sure? You know, and then it's like, okay, the conversation keeps going. They have like all these responses to everyone's normal reactions to disbelieving the bad advertising about getting immortality for free. So then, but when on the inside of the religion, they're doing that to people on the outside of religion, but on the inside of religion, they have this thing where they do thoughts stopping.

Language games where if I'm like, do you guys really think that is true [00:33:00] about the people meeting in Pennsylvania in 1918? They'd be like, well, you know, what we really need to focus on here is getting into God's paradise. And it's just like, we're not going to talk about that thing. We're going to talk about like petting the lion.

Who's going to be totally docile and like eating fruit for eternity. And 

all these like weird. 

Kara Goodwin: And

Scott Homan: Yeah, for 

Kara Goodwin: gonna. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't help, but wonder how. Going through this experience has shaped. Your relationship with God or your relationship with yourself, like, as you do your own self exploration and you've got this kind of trauma that you around specifically your spiritual being, where does that leave you?

I mean, did the baby get thrown out with the bath water or, you know, how has that been for you? 

Scott Homan: A lot of people that leave this particular group, [00:34:00] like I was saying, they've already been, it's already been disproven to them in some sense of. reasoning that all other religions aren't true or have no access to spirituality 

Or, God. So when you do that to this religion, it's like, Oh, okay. So all of it's fake, all the supernatural stuff, all of the demons aren't real.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot of things about demons, like all of that's false. And I've been in fear for no reason. Okay. So, well, their gods aren't real. And I'm an atheist towards them, like it's so much, it's so easy to just realize that like the God I've been praying to is also not real.

Okay, so it's all lies. Okay, so I'm just an atheist now. That's another extra shocker. I lost my community and my family, but now I also don't have God.

Kara Goodwin: Right.

Scott Homan: Okay, so what is the meaning of life? Then, and then it's like a whole different personal journey. So you can easily just walk into a church and then start learning what their worldview is and then you get to have the framework and the meaning that comes with

[00:35:00] that whole worldview. framework, you need to go create your own, but that's a lot more work. So like a lot of people leave this religion and they're like baseline all of spiritual, all the spiritual, supernatural world is false. No matter what anyone says it's noise. I need to create my own meaning in this life and it's just a materialist world, but then people, it's like not really a strong identity or it's not really a healthy identity.

I don't think, and we've had a lot of discussions about that on my podcast with all these other artists who've left the cult, that being labeled as an ex Jehovah's witness, it's like you're labeling yourself with something you're not a part of. That's strange. And also atheism is the same kind of language.

I am identifying with a group who doesn't believe what these other people believe. It's not a belief system of any kind, it's just like the lack of, but it, the language is a bit strange and unhealthy. 

ultimately I'm like, I would consider myself more of a humanist, like I value human life and cultures [00:36:00] around the world as equals and of value.

And that's a positive framing and perspective. But then to your specific question, did I throw the baby out with the bathwater? I think it was it was necessary to like dissolve all programming and framework that was given from this or taught or programmed from this group to rebuild from scratch.

So atheism was like a great starting place to to live with like the clarity of there is nothing outside of this existence, but then to like have experiences. That were personal and transformational for myself and others have gone through this have said similar things like they have a very vast X witnesses have vastly different and very interesting perspectives.

Which I think is healthy because it's based on real personal experience, not what some group has taught them. But I'm very, like you use the word spirituality and there's the spiritual community. I would say your [00:37:00] podcasts would very much fit in the quote unquote spirituality. It's like very vast, the kind of guests you have and that word for me has a lot of negative meaning because the religion used it as a way to say you're a spiritual person if you obey all the rules and say all the right things, wear the right clothes and do all the preaching and do all the slavery stuff that the religion requires of you to like rise up in the hierarchy.

If you're not doing that, you are not spiritual. So like they use it as this way to like judge you all the time. So that's a bit unfair to apply that to the spiritual community that exists outside of that framework. what's interesting to me is, I'm living in a place right now, I'm in Playa del Carmen, Mexico.

And this place has... Unbelievable amounts of leaders, healers, gurus, name all of the types of anyone who's been on your podcast or someone like that here in some form, and they're like offering their services [00:38:00] and their experiences, And it's really like, I'm open minded to all of it. And open mind to the psychedelic and the shamanic experiences.

And I've done some of the little of everything. I've done Qigong. I learned meditation ten years ago. Through that framework in, I lived in Vietnam for five years. It was like, I went to like an, essentially an atheist nation, where there's no one's Christian. It was amazing and it's so much clarity there.

But like also there's like Taoism and Buddhism influences. And, I like got into like the meditation world and I'm a big fan of Sam Harris and his, like, I'm a neuroscientist atheist, but he teaches meditation. And so it's from like a, there, we don't have to talk about the supernatural ever.

It's your understanding your subconscious and what's going on inside you. Like getting to know who you are and how your brain works, how your thoughts work. Like you're going to live and perish with this body and this mind. So you might as well get to know what's going on internal. So like, I've really enjoyed [00:39:00] that process because that was like a very clean slate.

no supernatural added, um, free supernatural beings involved.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah!

Scott Homan: But I hesitate to like jump into any groups. And as a free person, like I can go to a group, I can go to a Temescal, I can go to an ayahuasca shamanic experience, or a, sound healing, and like, judgment free, judge it or not judge it, like, take it or leave it, find benefit or not find benefit.

Decide if I enjoy it or not, or if I want to go back without feeling like I have to belong. And I think the spiritual community generally doesn't have those you need to join us elements, which I do really appreciate. It's take it or leave it, like, we're pretty open here.

I'm a little off put by the, to get this kind of experience you have to pay us before you experience it.

Where like, churches have a, we want your brain and your soul to, we want to control you. So we'll give you free entrance to church. And we'll give you dinner to like, [00:40:00] draw you into our framework. And cause we need you more than you need us. And that's how I see churches in general, like we need you, we need your money to exist.

So please come in and have a free dinner and then like, you'll hook you, where it's spiritual worlds. Like, Hey, no, we actually want to enter the conversation about the energy exchange. Like give me 20 bucks or give me a hundred bucks or give me a thousand dollars. And you'll get something out of this and I'll get your money.

And that's, it's a strange thing to have spirituality working with capitalism. I'm used to spirituality being like a donation based system, like with the church I grew up in.

They do talk a lot about money, but they're pretty, it's pretty much like, Hey, this is your soul you're talking about, or like your eternal being, like, we're not going to charge money for this.

 that's not going to be the thing that's in the way of us communicating. And so I find that strange with the spiritual community because they kind of have to exist and to be able to do their craft. They have to charge something.

So I guess I'm not sure how to tap into it in a way that's healthy.

And I definitely don't want to belong. I'm [00:41:00] definitely not wearing the outfit that they generally have, which is like, it's like a spiritual community is like a place of authenticity, but I feel like from an outsider looking in, I feel like I'm seeing people wearing uniforms. 

Kara Goodwin: Yeah. 

Scott Homan: a bit off putting to me.

Kara Goodwin: It's fascinating because like what you're talking about with the vastness and there's a lot under that spirituality umbrella, but there are a lot of hooks. Absolutely. A lot of hooks that are as strong as, the experiences of the Jehovah's Witnesses, where it's like, you're in, you can't get out, you're in, there's sorcery, there's, and even with ayahuasca ceremonies, even with like retreat centers You know, in, in Latin America type of, you know, traditional, I was just on a webinar with somebody who wrote a book about this yesterday and she was the victim of sorcery, like went down to this well known retreat center, did an ayahuasca ceremony.

And [00:42:00] during that ceremony, she was like, there was an energetic dart. She was like hooked to this. Person she hadn't even paid attention to. It like started to destroy her marriage. She was, they like had her come back down to do an unpaid internship. Anyway, fascinating story, but it wasn't like a, even a group, you know, it was a, this, it was a famous, I don't know what the name of it was, but it was a well known famous people go there, retreat center. And she had this very long experience that she was psychologically, like, couldn't get herself out of, and it took all these, tribal elders, of the Native American, I can't remember which tribe, anyway, she was getting a lot of different help of, like, trying to, address the energy Of this.

So it's wise to be cautious and I can completely understand that. Like, let me reorient [00:43:00] myself to the material world, to the physical world and like what I can trust. Like I, okay. At this point, like I can trust my senses, and I know that people can have a lot of power over me when they start to go to. Things that I have to take their word for because I can't see it, you know, or I'm relying on their interpretation of things. So, that makes complete sense. And just, it sounds like you're in this sort of rebuilding time of just like, who am I and what is important to me and. and. how can I stay centered and grounded and, not be at the mercy of somebody else for my happiness, for my community, for my well being and here and when I'm not here anymore,

you know? 

Scott Homan: Yeah, there's a complicated thing that I'm working through right now. And I'm 15 years into this journey. So I was describing like my initial stuff. And so I've made a lot of moves [00:44:00] since then. But one of the things right now is I'm open to coaching and I've like tested that out. I've been getting therapy regularly to work on some of the deeper traumas.

And I've read this amazing book. That's really popular. The body keeps the score about how that works internally and how, what some of the solutions are. I'm an avid. Psychedelic psilocybin user, but I use it a couple of times a year max, but, have, I like really have found something valuable there

Personally.

And what I'm seeing right now, it's interesting to me is I've been very open minded about like the ayahuasca journey, for example. From like, go to Peru, go to Columbia, get in the Amazon, do the thing with someone who's like been trained their whole lives in this space and know how to curate that in a proper way.

But that's blowing up in North America, in Mexico, in the whole world, really. And the people that are practicing it or performing it are [00:45:00] doing an amazing service to bring that to this other place, which I totally value, but I question whether or not they have the. Skills or connection or like understanding about how to help someone navigate through their process or even like the aftercare of like understanding what happened.

And so what I see happening is a lot of 20 and 30 somethings, not being an ageist, but like. Young people who don't have a lot, like a ton of life experience and definitely don't have a deep connection to these cultures taking on this role, selling it as a service without me or other people understanding how, if they're good at it or not.

And so like to see, and people are like self promoting here in outrageous amounts. So like, I'm very off put by self promotion I would prefer, and I think it's always going to be a better.

I don't know how to say, psychedelic, just to be general, but like, [00:46:00] it's something that you're dealing with something really deep and internal in your subconscious. You're awakening old traumas and triggers. And those times or dealing with something that's like brewing under the surface your whole life, but you haven't ever like opened that closet to see what's in there because your child protected you at some point in the past.

And like, those memories are trapped somewhere. You need to go work on those are reparenting like these concepts are important. But to put that in the hands of someone who doesn't have deep experience or connection to that, A, that substance, but also this, the training to help someone move through and navigate their own inner world is, I want to trust someone who has the experience. So it's hard to navigate a world where everyone's a coach. Everyone's an instant like I, I just did tantra training now I'm a tantra guru and it's like, yeah, you just announced last week that you were ending your training. I'm not going to pay you to like learn tantra.

You just learned tantra. I don't want to pay you to use my [00:47:00] life as a studying process. Keep. Studying until you have like reached the threshold like a Who's grading these people with who's the person giving out the black belt in karate? You know, there's a reason why ancient cultures have this is embedded in their society and you achieve certain roles and responsibilities at a certain time because of so much experience 

Kara Goodwin: Yeah. 

Scott Homan: the guru, the person who's like lived it as like the wise old sage can now say you're ready where is that built in?

I don't see that at all. I see people trying to make a quick buck off of someone else's trauma. And I don't, I'm a little bit off put in a bit, like also cautious 

Kara Goodwin: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. if I don't ever hear anybody call themselves a guru ever again, I will feel like humanity is off to a good start. it's like, okay, finally we're done with people thinking that they're gurus. You know, it's, [00:48:00] I do believe that there have. been gurus who have graced this planet, but it's such an overused term and it's an abused term. Getting back again to the big spiritual umbrella. So many people want to wear that crown of guru and they, and there are a lot of people who need. To put that crown on somebody, you know who they're who they respect to you know if they're listening to somebody And more people start listening to them, it helps them to build this You know, that they've found something special and anyway, it's, that whole, the agency, the self empowerment and the free will, you know, it's like the more invested we are in organizations or in a particular person to save us for our salvation, whatever it's like, you know, there's still a lot of work to do on the individual level. To clear out some of that [00:49:00] programming where, you know, we feel like it's outside of us that what we're seeking is going to come through somebody else for us, you know?

Scott Homan: This is a great point, the outside of you solution versus the internal work that it takes to move forward. One thing I realized coming from a religious group where we were, I was taught to pray from like six years old. And how that, how to pray, what it's for, how to, how it works, like what kind of things you can pray about and like, okay, practice that throughout my youth.

And I don't know that I found value, but I think when I started meditating, I was like, well, this isn't so different. I'm trying to listen to what my internal voice is saying and then it's waking a lot of interesting things and I'm paying attention to those things. Okay. That's like, it's different than praying.

And I've also done this thing. I learned from someone who did a number of times where like I say a prayer, but not to an external being, but to my internal subconscious that felt like I was rewriting my own operating [00:50:00] system to use a computer analogy, like my own internal framework, like I can tell it what to be.

directly with the power of prayer but not relying on something external but relying on my internal world and I feel like although prayer to a external deity Is a way to focus your concerns and like speak them out, which is great for your mind because, okay, I said the thing that's I'm worried about now I can go do something about it.

Oftentimes you're saying help me with that thing. Like I need external help from for that thing, but it's still focusing your mind. So it's like, I feel like it's getting halfway there to pray to a God in terms of like helping you focus and like change your life. But if you do it to yourself, you pray to the internal subconscious.

Then you're basically self reliant. Okay, I've acknowledged the problem. Here are the things that I would like to do. Here's the version of myself that I would like to be. I'm this new version now. I'm rewriting it right now in real time. Is useful. [00:51:00] More useful.

Kara Goodwin: I love that. And to me, for my own personal, what resonates with me, like I do resonate with the concept of a higher self so that there is like an eternal aspect of ourselves that we have this human form. That's like an expression of our eternal being, you know, and that kind of has that three 60 view of what's happening where we have like this, you know,

A Slice of what can be seen from a higher self perspective, but it's still part of us It's still something that we get absorbed back into when the body when you know the body dies So that's kind of that Both, right?

Because it's kind of, it's like more than just what's going on at the human level, but it's also part of that. It's a part of me, you know, but it's also like a bigger part of me. when you're in Europe and there are all those towers, like church spires where you can

[00:52:00] climb and you can look down on the town that you're at. And when you're at the street level. You can see, you know, you can see what you can see at street level, but when you go up in the tower, you have a whole different vantage point. You see the whole town and like what all the different options are. And if you're looking down at somebody, it's like, Oh, wow.

They couldn't, they could go that way. Don't go that way. Cause there's a big, you know, parade over there. They can't see they're going to get trapped if they go over there, you know, that kind of thing.

Scott Homan: Yeah, but the first person view, you don't have quite as much clarity. Or you don't see all the options. Yeah, so that's your higher self view is what you're kind of 

Kara Goodwin: right. Like, I like to pray in that way where I'm like, okay, there's a part of me that goes beyond this human that is there to help me, but it's part of me. Like, it's a, it is me, but it's more than what my consciousness knows of, and it's higher than the subconscious, you know? So, I don't know. It's probably just wordsmithing things, but

Scott Homan: I feel like there's so many [00:53:00] different... experiments or 

Kara Goodwin: thought experiments? 

Scott Homan: Thought experiments. Yeah. So like the idea that like there's an eternal consciousness and it can choose parents to be the soul that gets born into that child. Like that's interesting thought experiment. And I guess my way of relating to that would be from my own personal experience using psychedelic mushrooms.

Like shortly after leaving the cult, I was like, there's more to this world. I want to find out. And I did it really in a way that I'm happy about because it was like tied to nature with like close friends. But I think through that, it kind of opened my eyes to life on the planet and like how connected you feel to the planet on that substance was really, an important moment for me.

And I used those substances multiple times. my way of seeing the world and relating to what you're talking about is that, like, all life is communicating to other things that are alive. And we aren't so different and my consciousness or the [00:54:00] human consciousness, there's no way we're the first being on the planet to have that thing like we are so similar in structure and biology to almost all other animal life of all the different kingdoms of species 

 so mushrooms themselves, like mycelium themselves are like so important for the soil health, for plants to exist. It seems like, if you follow stamets at all, they're deciding. To kill a tree or to clear a valley or to encourage certain trees to grow and other ones not to grow.

Like they're doing direct chemical communication through the roots, through the ribosome to trade a t p with nutrients that the tree needs. 'cause they're communicating what they need and the tree's giving through photosynthesis, sugars that the mushrooms need to exist. There's just so much interconnectedness that I feel when I'm like that my consciousness.

is in communication with the consciousness of the life on [00:55:00] the planet. And that maybe it's not so much that I have a unique soul or I'm part of a super gigantic mega soul that has this one representation in this body, but the interconnectedness of the planet and life is so profound to me that I can see that becoming or having these similar religious themes or the way you described the higher self, like we are a part of this ecosystem and we're all interconnected and we're all communicating, but our five senses are very limited.

That only allow us to see in this tiny little window or little binocular space. But there's just, like you said, there's a whole other perspective that you can have when you realize how profoundly intertwined we are.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah.

Scott Homan: like part of me wants to know more about how to connect with that thing, with my subconscious, with my conscious mind, 

There has to be more valued information. And I feel when I'm using those kinds of like mind opening substances, that I'm way more, I'm getting way more information.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah.

Scott Homan: In the present moment, it's that information is always [00:56:00] there. It's just that allows you to, it kind of opens the filter up a little bit wider or changes wide into the lens.

Kara Goodwin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, this has been such a rich conversation, Scott. Thank you so much. Can you tell everybody how they can watch your films and connect with you?

Scott Homan: Witness Underground is the name of the film. witnessunderground. com is where you can find all the information and the YouTube channel by the same name has a lot of other related content that's free. We're releasing season two for August right now. So that's all like, well, every day, like a new video is coming out.

And so you'd follow there. It'd be amazing because that helps. There's a ton of rich content on this type of topics that I've been making since 2016. So it's like a wealth of knowledge and interviews. And then it's available to watch right now at Patreon. So patreon. com forward slash witness underground is the one place you can watch it right now.

And that funds the project. It's 10. We're going to be releasing on Vimeo on demand soon. And then it's going to go on a wider [00:57:00] release in a month or two, which we're super excited about. So you should be able to watch it like on Tubi or some other paid for ad based service. On your smart TV, but that's in the future.

So right now there's one way to watch it on Patrion. There'll be a couple more and it will be widening it out and hopefully it'll full release before the end of the year.

Kara Goodwin: Beautiful.

Scott Homan: Thank you so much. Cara is a really fun conversation. I love being able to get this deep. And so esoteric, 

Kara Goodwin: Yes. 

Scott Homan: even an excellent podcast.

Kara Goodwin: Thank you so much. Thanks for being here, Scott. 

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