313. The Healing Power of the Drum: A Journey of Self-Expression & Healing - Clementine Moss

Kara Goodwin: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Meditation Conversation, the podcast to support your spiritual revolution. I'm your host, Kara Goodwin, and today I'm joined by Clementine Moss. Clementine is the founder and drummer of Zapparella with a busy solo career as a singer and songwriter. Her book from Bonum to Buddha and Back, the Slow Enlightenment of the Hard Rock Drummer uses her career as metaphor for contemplative.

Practice. Clementine is a spiritual counselor and a non-denominational minister. She uses modalities such as depth hypnosis, applied shamanism, and energy medicine in her healing practice. 

You're in for a [00:01:00] treat guys. Clem is so great. She is this curious amalgamation of balanced Zen seeker and hard rock drummer. We get into so many great topics here. Like shamonic drumming, ancestral DNA hypnosis of course, meditation. Processing emotions and so many other things  that you're going to want to. And If you enjoY this episode, please send it on to anyone in your life who would also be interested in it. Let us grow this light on the planet by sharing the high vibe content we come across. I would be so grateful for you to subscribe to the podcast and rate and review. I know you know that these are all those little ways that you can help support the show i appreciate it so much thank you and enjoy this episode 

Kara Goodwin: So welcome Clem. I'm so excited to be with you today.

Clementine Moss: Thank you so much, Kara. I'm so excited for our conversation.

Kara Goodwin: So you have such an incredible background and such an [00:02:00] interesting, you know, diversity in terms of, of your interests and, and how you express yourself. So tell us a little bit about your background with the music and with all the healing modalities and, and how they all have, have found you.

Clementine Moss: Yeah. Yeah. Well, after, um, you know, listening to your podcast kind of religiously for the last few days, I feel like my story is pretty boring. compared to a lot of the folks who've, who've been on here. But, um, you know, my, um, I guess the reason that I'm here on the podcast is, um, talking, because the book is talking about the connection between Um, contemplative practice and being in the world, right? So, um, I think that for a long time in my life, and I think for a lot of people, we see meditation and contemplative practice as a way to escape.

Right. We're, we're struggling, we're in pain. And we can find that, um, floaty, wonderful place [00:03:00] outside of ourselves. Um, and, um, and mistakenly believe that that's kind of the point of things. And because I'm a rock and roll drummer and, um, am very in the world when I'm playing rock and roll, um, I wanted to write something that That kind of showed my journey from that place of escape. Um, and finding all of that, the space within myself that I could, um, kind of avoid myself, um, to coming to a point over time of understanding that, um, actually the purpose of contemplative practice is to be more fully in the world. And, um, and so that's kind of the story. Um, I started playing, um, I found, uh, meditation, Vipassana meditation, um, and drumming when I was 27 years old. So I started late in life.

Kara Goodwin: At the same time.

Clementine Moss: Kind of in the same, around the same time.

Kara Goodwin: Isn't that

interesting?

Clementine Moss: yeah, my first 10 day meditation retreat, um, silent retreat.

And then, um, drumming happened around the, in, like, kind of in the same [00:04:00] year. Um, I. And I thought, you know, here I am, I have this part of myself and this part of myself, and, you know, I'm gonna be the, the rock and roll drummer on tour, living in 

a 

van, and, you know, uh, having this life. And then in the morning when I wake up, having this secret little, um, you know, other part of myself. But, um, over time I just realized it's just all Clem, just all

Kara Goodwin: Yeah,

Clementine Moss: Yeah. Yeah.

Kara Goodwin: I love that. And a question that comes to mind with the drumming, like marrying the drumming and the contemplative practice. Have you done anything with like shamonic drumming or. Any kind of, um, expression in that way.

Clementine Moss: Yeah. So, um, uh, several years ago I studied, uh, shamonic practice and, um, am now a, an applied Shamonic practitioner, um, Uh, the modalities of, uh, depth hypnosis is a, um, modality out of a school here in Berkeley, California. Um, uh, created by Issa Gucci, which marries, um, uh, traditional shamanism, um, Buddhism, [00:05:00] especially Tibetan Buddhism, which has a basis in shamanism and, uh, western, uh, psychotherapy. So, um, especially transpersonal psychotherapy, which believes that spirit is an aspect of healing,

Kara Goodwin: Mm-Hmm.

Clementine Moss: So, um, it's a beautiful modality and in that, um, process of studying all of that, um, I realized that I'd been kind of coming to the. For my whole life. And I had taken a circuitous route through rock and roll drumming. Right. Um, because that was my background. That's, I grew up, you know, with a father who loved that kind of music. And then when I started playing music, that was the kind of music I played. But there was always, from the time I picked up drumsticks, there was always something Um, that felt deeper than just kind of learning, you know, um, how to be a rocker. And, uh, so when I, I came to my first class learning the shamanic method and the drum came out, I. I was like, uh, like, oh, oh, oh, now I get [00:06:00] it. Thank you universe 

Like, now I'm starting to understand. So yeah. Uh, sound healing. Um, drum healing. Um, those are things that, you know, I've been trained in.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah, I love it. I, I personally have not experienced shamanic drumming yet, but I have been on the lookout for it because I am very curious about it because I, I mean, even I remember from being a child and hearing like percussion and the way that it felt, you know, the, the song Tusk, for example,

Clementine Moss: mm-Hmm. 

Kara Goodwin: um,

Fleetwood Mac, you know, listening to that, I, I remember being a kid and just being like, there was something about the drumming that was like, so I, I just really wanted, I just really wanted that experience and, um, so I keep. I keep trying to tune in locally 'cause I wanna do a live kind of shamonic drum circle.

Or not even, not even shamonic, but just like I, I feel like a drum circle would be really beautiful medicine, 

Clementine Moss: Yeah, the drum has [00:07:00] so much, um, magic in it.

You know, there's this really wonderful book, um, called When the Drummers Were Women. 

can never remember the name of the author. Um, she's passed away now, but she was an amazing, um, author, a woman who, um, kind of fell into drums the way that I did, you know, didn't, kind of, didn't expect it.

She was just interested in it and, um, ended up traveling around the world, studying all of the different, you know, the history of the drum and realizing that, you know. Drummers were women for going back, uh, I think 80,000 years. They can find an image of a drum. The drum is one of the first images in some of the oldest, um, artwork.

Kara Goodwin: Petroglyphs and 

Clementine Moss: And, um, and you know, it was used, um, during childbirth. Um, you know, the, the people would, uh, the women would play the drums during childbirth for their, uh, the person giving birth. And, um, it was in all of the ceremonies, all of the rituals. And, um, you know, it was the women who were doing that. And, um. It wasn't, it wasn't until I think, um, you know, the, when kind of [00:08:00] Christianity came in, they, they outlawed women playing drums because it was a symbol of, um, of, uh, shamanic, you know, practice.

Um, and so, you know, for, uh. A long time, even up until today, drums were seen as very 

masculine. Right. We, uh, we, we experience it as a masculine instrument

'cause of the outward display of power, but, um, but that's not how it's been

Kara Goodwin: Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

Clementine Moss: Yeah.

Kara Goodwin: Well, tell us a little bit more about this convergence between the music and your spiritual life. It, especially the, the hard rock part with the, you know, there's this like kind of softness. With the contemplative practice, the, the ana. Um, and then of course it's hard rock , you know?

So it seems very, very kind of two opposite ends of the spectrum, but it seems that they're very woven in your own practice and journey. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Clementine Moss: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, gosh, there's so [00:09:00] many places to take that, but, um, I will say that, you know, when we are in, um, meditation, We're, um, sitting still and we're observing without reacting. Right? Which, that's what insight meditation. Vipassana meditation, that's the me, uh, meditation form of meditation I've been doing for, you know, 30 years or so. And when you're sitting there watching the way that you, um, your mind is constantly bringing you. Like pushing things away, right? The aversion, um, wanting things to be different, the craving, um, and just the ignorance of believing that those things are you right. That, that is you? Um, that can be some of the most difficult work that we ever do. And, you know, knowing, um, going to a 10 day silent retreat where you're sitting for 12 hours a day in meditation, in pain, because you're sitting on a floor. For me, I mean, I'm a Viking, right? I sit on the floor and it's, I'm, it's not [00:10:00] a natural place for me to do. So my body's in pain. But then you recognize that when you're Mind is obs unsettled. Your body becomes unsettled and in pain you start to see the body, mind react, you know, connection there. Um, I will say that that's some of the most intense battles I've ever had in my life is sitting quietly. Um, and, um, some of the most pain, some of the most struggle because all of my struggle is rising up to be met. Um. And, uh, and so, uh, when I'm playing Hard Rock for many years I believed, um, that it was, um, anger that was fueling. I. The drumming in a way. Right? Um, I was playing in a band, you know, long ago that was very, uh, the music was very aggressive and, um, and there was, uh, a frustration and anger, uh, uh, you know, uh, wanting to kind of break out of, uh, traditional norms. And there was a lot of that kind of fiery energy behind that. [00:11:00] And, um, I kind of see that in those early times of me going to those meditation retreats and really seeing it as a battle, um, the whole time that I was there. And then over time I started to connect with, when you know, the front attention of your mind is, is in that battle, you begin to become more and more aware of that which there is, where there is no battle. Where there's never been a battle that that which is still and unchanging and eternal, um, and present and peaceful and there with you. And, um, and we see that in the most chaotic moments of our life. You know, I think about being in a car accident, say, and, and being in that state of shock, you know, of, of the unexpected. What is it that carries me through? What is it that that is still an a knowing or, or still an all knowing in that. In those places, even though my mind can't even think straight, right, my, my everything is so, um, uprooted. And, um, [00:12:00] the more that I engaged in that daily sitting down battle, the more that wider awareness began to, to flower and to open. When I'm sitting in meditation, uh, in behind the drum set and I'm trying, I'm giving it my all, I'm exerting myself as much as I can. I came to realize that if I connected to that, which doesn't not change, that energy that is always there, there's always this, it's like a battery of, of even steady energy within me. If I drum from that place, then I'm drumming from a place of joy. And when I drum from a place of joy, I can play forever. I have infinite stamina and um, and then it's as if the song is now playing me, it's becomes effortless. [00:13:00] I really see that as a great metaphor for us just living our life. Like, what if we walk down the street?

What if we drive in traffic? And we're, we're, really in that centered place that, that kind of, um, that, that even. That even energy, um, what's it like to move through the world with like that where, where we're feeling everything fully and yet we always understand that these are things that rise and, and pass through us.

We're not attaching ourselves to these things. Um. Again, not to, um, to avoid it. You know, I'm, you know, when I'm in traffic and somebody does something really dumb and I see that flare of anger rise up in me, I can feel it, but then I can also just as immediately watch it kind of move through me. Be like, oh, look, Clem cl Clem got mad like, you know, um. So, um, so yeah, so I guess that's kind of the, those are the connections that I make, you know, 

is finding that place.

Kara Goodwin: Well, I love that. And you keep coming back to this, uh, this embodiment and the, the non bypassing,[00:14:00]  um, because that can be something that, that can be kind of a trap that we can get into. I've, I've experienced that myself in my own path where, you know, I, I don't want to experience the kind of lower things within me, and so I rather than feel them.

I deny them and I like kind of hold them at bay. And I think that that is like a more evolved version of me and it's taken time for me to understand that that is part of the expression. And it passes just like what you're saying, you know, you know, it's like if I let myself have that anger or frustration or sadness, grief, whatever it is.

Let it move through me. Notice it moving through me, letting myself be human and having that experience and, and also being able to look at it from a, a place of witnessing and observing and, and trying not to get entangled in like I am that, but rather like I am feeling [00:15:00] that and . And then, you know, we allow it to move through us and, and ideally it completes its process so that we're not burying it.

Because of course what happens when we don't allow it to be expressed and when we deny it is it's like, it's not that it doesn't get into our field. It's just that we don't express it, we don't, it doesn't process and then we just cover it up, you know? And, um, I'm sure you see that a lot in the different healing modalities that you, uh, you practice because you do deep hypnosis and, um, and you mentioned like your shamanism and, uh, energy medicine and so forth.

So I'd love to dive in a little bit into those modalities because . I, I'm curious, like, are these things that you use in your own practice or are you, do you work with clients in this way or how did those show up in your, your work?

Clementine Moss: Um, well first of all, I just wanna say I love the way that you said that.

you.

know, that, that, um, that we don't, um, that we really do [00:16:00] want to feel

Kara Goodwin: Mm-Hmm.

Clementine Moss: the things that we wanna be present in our life. And, and I, I think the reason that we want that is so that we can, you know, if I can really feel all of the feels right, all of the things in my life, what it does is it opens up a level of compassion, both for myself, for going through it, which then Does what I think the whole purpose of all of the spiritual practices is to open up compassion for the other, right?

And to realize how much, you know, our own struggles we see other people are going through. 

You know, it's when we really connect to how much, um, pain is where is, uh, there for us to feel and experience and we realize, gosh. Uh, these pe everybody walks with this,

you know, I'm no different. Um, then we can really open our hearts, I think in, in

Kara Goodwin: I love that. Yes. Great point.

Clementine Moss: Yeah. Um, so yeah, [00:17:00] so I do work with clients, um, um, with, with people who, um, uh, you know, know, depth hypnosis has been, um, shown to be really great with PTSD and depression anxiety. Um, and, um, and uh, so I do have, uh, clients that I work with and I love working with clients. Um, I don't have too many these days because my, it was funny as soon as I started really, um, um, working with, um, a lot of people, suddenly my creative life started to kind of get Stronger, which I've heard can happen sometimes when we, when we do these things, like I was working so hard to kind of open myself up to be, um, of benefit to others. What happened was my own Stuff kind of started to, to get stronger, um, and, uh, clearer. But, um, but I do work with clients and I, I love it, um, because I really believe in the modalities that I work in and, um, you know, depth hypnosis is seen as a way of, um, using traditional shamanic method, um, Like soul retrieval, power retrieval, um, um, energetic [00:18:00] interference, clearing kind of things. Um, but um, but the goal is to help the client become their own shaman.

Kara Goodwin: Hmm.

Clementine Moss: So I have been trained in traditional shamanic techniques and I can do that for people who maybe they are, are having so much difficulty that they can't really focus on their own, you know, going on a journey themself. And so I can do those kind of clearings, but I find it much more powerful to work in a session. Um. And helping people to go and understand their own internal metaphoric system. I can go and I can retrieve, um, you know, power for someone and bring it back to them and blow it into the, the top of the head, the way that the traditional, um. Work is done. And that can be really powerful for people, but it's even more powerful for them to go on their journey and to connect with, um, the, collect their power that they've lost or that has been taken away and bring it back [00:19:00] on their own and, and then have me help them

to kind of incorporate it. So, um, that's why I really, um, I really I really love the way that I was taught these things because, um, the integrity of power is vitally important and These days, um, you know, shamanism is really, you know, kind of a buzz word and I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding about power and, um, if, if the work that you're doing is not empowering you but is instead, um, asking you to give your power to something or someone or, um, or a modality, I think, um, it's time to think. Um, think a lot about whether or not that's a benefit because what we're doing is we're coming into our own personal power, you know, our own understanding of ourselves. And, um, you know, when I go on a shamanic journey, I'm seeing my shamanic realm and those things, those guides that I have, those, those images that I'm shown, they mean something to me. [00:20:00] If I see an eagle, that eagle means something to me, that it might mean something different to someone else. Everybody has their own imagery

and um, I really believe that that's the way, the best way to work this way. Yeah.

Kara Goodwin: Yeah, I could not agree more. And I love coming, coming across practitioners who are wanting to help people to connect with their own power. Um, I,

I personally, am seeing it more and more, and more as I connect with people. . I hope that that's a reflection that more and more practitioners are adopting that style rather than I'm the guru and you come through me and then I'm, you know, the intermediary between you and Source, or you and whatever.

I think we're, that's an outdated system and maybe it held a place when the planet was in a different place, you know, vibrationally where maybe we needed. That intermediary in a different way than we do now. But I feel that it's really, really [00:21:00] important that, um, people that we look to, to help us to heal are pointing us back to ourselves.

And it doesn't mean that there's not a role for somebody to help us do that, because depending on where we are in our journey, that can be really important. You know, if we're

Clementine Moss: Teachers are wonderful.

Kara Goodwin: Yes.

Clementine Moss: teachers are wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

Kara Goodwin: it's really important that we don't . Like you say, hand over our power to say, oh, okay. You know, the best thing.

You know, what this eagle represents for me.

Um, and you know, I think it takes dedication within ourselves too, to also cl reclaim that within ourselves. Because so often, you know, it, I, I mean, we are so ready to be like, well, what does that mean? What does that mean?

You know? And we want somebody's interpretation for it.

And it's like, okay. That can be helpful and keep, you know, keep going with yourself.

Clementine Moss: yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Kara Goodwin: yeah. I'm curious, you in passing [00:22:00] said, you mentioned your Viking, um, , that you're a Viking and this keeps coming back to me. I would love to know about this. How do you see yourself as a Viking? What does that mean to you?

Clementine Moss: I just, I mean that my, um, my, uh, family is from, um, Nordic, uh, has a Nordic past, so my hips are not as, um, as pliable, I think as, um, from other, uh,

Kara Goodwin: that a trait? 

Clementine Moss: I think so, 

Kara Goodwin: the hips are not as pliable. Okay.

Clementine Moss: At least, yeah. At least for me. Yeah. And I've heard o for other people say, say that too. And I think it's just culturally, you know, you look at um, you know, Asian cultures where it's very common for people to sit cross-legged on the floor and

you know, you don't see a that a lot.

And, uh, you know, tall, tall people

Kara Goodwin: warriors. Well, this is what's so funny because your, is it your handle on, or your website? Clem, the Great. You know, and then you do have at least from, maybe it's the lighting, but I think you've got kind of reddish hair

Clementine Moss: Mm-Hmm.

Kara Goodwin: and you've got like, I'm like, oh yes, I totally [00:23:00] see you are a Viking. Um, and then you've got this warrior ness about you too, and it's like, ah, there's so many different, like layers and levels that that plays on.

And then now you've got like your genealogy and isn't that fascinating? I love it.

Clementine Moss: know what's really funny is, um, the first time I ever did so past life regression always really 

fascinates me,

right? So, you know, the way that I do, um, I was trained to, to guide people in past life. Regression is really, um, we do it following a symptom. You know, of something that we're looking to heal in this life and we, and we follow that symptom back.

So it, it's not what we call past life tourism, right? We're not going back just to kind of see who, what were we? But the first time I ever did past life regression, I did that past life. Tourism, which was really fun and really great. But the funny thing is, um, I went and, uh, we were to see, um, our most spiritual life, our most recent life, right?

These are the two lives that we were to go to, and [00:24:00] both of them were, uh, one, I saw myself as a Native American woman, and the other I saw myself as a, um, As a Scandinavian man, and, um, and both of those things are in my DNA, right? So I have both, um, both of those lineages in my, um, in my body. And so it really makes me think sometimes like maybe we're just like getting messages from our bacteria or our DNA, you know, maybe it's just cellular memory that we're,

Kara Goodwin: Maybe.

Clementine Moss: seeing, 

you 

Kara Goodwin: Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, and it could be everything. It could be we're holding that physically, you know, and it's an ancestral thing. And that, you know, there is this in, uh, intentionality with, with the, the lineage that we choose from a soul perspective, the, the human lineage. It's interesting too, your name, Clementine Moss, and I understand Moss is your married name, right?

But two very earthy words.

Clementine Moss: It kind of sounds like fruit fungus, doesn't it?

Kara Goodwin: No. Well, Moss [00:25:00] I think of as very Scandinavian because,

um, when I first started this podcast, I actually had a co-host, the first, I don't know, year or so, um, Alessandra, and she's Swedish,

and so she would join from Sweden and I was in America. , but I remember her telling this story once of like going into the forest and just laying down on the moss and, and we had a guest on and we were both like.

okay, let's just not talk and let's just be in the moss, you know? 'cause it just sounded so amazing. And now anytime I hear moss, I think of her laying on this, you know, luscious moss. It sounded like a fairy forest, you know?

Clementine Moss: Oh man. 

Kara Goodwin: and,

but your name is awesome. And they're, but they're both so earthy, you know, like, uh.

Clementine Moss: Yeah.

Kara Goodwin: Natural things that we find in nature and clementine being like orange. And then you've got this like Nordic with the red hair and all of it. It's like, it's just really interesting. All the different like data points. We were talking about data points before we started [00:26:00] recording, but there's a lot with you that that like reinforces other parts of you.

It's really interesting like, like a . A parfait. It's many layers. You know, if you've seen Shrek, you know, it's like, I'm like an onion. It's like, no, I'm like a parfait, . You know? It's like, what kind of layered thing do you wanna be? Do you prefer onion? Do you prefer parfait?

Clementine Moss: Well, I like that. All those things are pretty nice things, you know?

I'm sure that there's a layer. I got a layer gunk in there somewhere too

Kara Goodwin: we all? Yeah. . We're all just moving through this human experience and trying, trying our 

Clementine Moss: kind of great. 

Yeah,

it's kind of great. Yeah.

Kara Goodwin: I explored with another guest named Hillis. Hillis Pugh, and we were talking about, um, names Is Clementine your birth name?

Clementine Moss: no.

Kara Goodwin: Oh, okay. You adopted that name.

Okay. It's a great name. Um,

but just talking about the power of our names and, and the sounds and the, the meanings and, and all of that.

And it's, it's really [00:27:00] interesting to step back and, and, and kind look at that and how it, it applies to our 

Clementine Moss: Are you a, are you a writer? Because it seems like, it seems like names, like the Fascination with names is always a sign of someone who's a writer.

Kara Goodwin: Ah, yeah, I do like to write. I am writing a book right now. Yeah.

Clementine Moss: Oh, great. 

Kara Goodwin: Yeah. 

Clementine Moss: congratulations.

Kara Goodwin: Thank you. Thanks. Well, let's talk about your book. Tell us a little bit about your book and, uh, and what people can, can find in there.

Clementine Moss: Yeah. It is a, um, it's a memoir. And, um, it is made up of a hundred little short pieces. Um, and, um, let's see, some of the themes in, you know, it's kind of the story of Clem, um, how I came to be a drummer, um, uh, how I came to choose drumming at 27 years old. Um, and then, um, it's also, uh, a lot about, you know, the. The connection between, um, it's, it's, there's, there are a lot of vignettes about, you know, a [00:28:00] weekend of shows and how my meditation Meditation practice, my contemplative insight helps carry me through a weekend of driving and playing and you know, all of the stuff. Right. Um, and so there are road stories and they're, from the perspective of someone who's really, um. You know, gets pulled out of that place of stillness and then how I come back to it and how I get

pulled out and how I come back. And, um, and so there are a lot of stories like that. It is a bit of a love story to my father because he passed away right around the same time that I, um, started meditating and, um, and learned how to play drums.

So he never got to see me play drums. So, um, so there are stories about, you know, coming to terms with, um, you know, our relationship in the book. Um. there's some, uh, a lot about, you know, what it's like to be in a female band. I mean, I, uh, my band, uh, I've mostly been in, um, or the big bands in my life have been mostly [00:29:00] female. So, um, what it's like to work with, uh, other women and, um, how great that is. Uh, let's see. And, um, it really is a love story to drumming. You know, I just, I, drums are, are, magic in my life and, um, and so there's a lot, uh. A lot about drumming. There's a, of course, there's a lot about Led Zeppelin and the book is divided by some, uh, exploration of Led Zeppelin songs.

Um, I picked I think 10 different Led Zeppelin songs that, um, I've played, um, and I have some thoughts about. So I use those songs as kind of a jumping off point into other topics.

Um. 

Kara Goodwin: do you, do you have a favorite Zeppelin song?

Clementine Moss: Oh, well, I don't know that I have a favorite. I have favorite ones that I play and favorite ones to listen to. Um, you know, a real favorite is probably when the levy breaks, um, because, um, that song has been a pretty big deal for the band. Um, it's kind of the song we're most known for. Um, [00:30:00] and, um. And I love playing it.

And you know, it kind of encompasses everything I love about John Bonham's playing.

So, 

Kara Goodwin: Oh, wonderful. I, I'm, there's a song, Tangerine.

Clementine Moss: I love that one.

Kara Goodwin: Is that one Led Zeppelin or did they cover that? Uh, it is an 

Clementine Moss: wrote that one. Yeah. Uhhuh. 

Kara Goodwin: My dog is named Josephine, and we call her, I call her Josephine Tangerine, and I sing that song to her all the time. So now I'm talking to Clementine, who is in a Led Zeppelin tribute band, and, uh, my mind is just blown.

There are so many , there's so much 

Clementine Moss: dog is she? What 

Kara Goodwin: She's a mutt. She's, she's a, an Australian shepherd, German shepherd, and has a bunch of other things in there too.

Clementine Moss: nice. Yeah.

Yeah. My dog is in the book too. Henry the pug is,

Kara Goodwin: oh,

Clementine Moss: a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh,

There's a lot of him in there. Yeah, a

Kara Goodwin: Oh, love animals.

Clementine Moss: Me too.

Kara Goodwin: Well, this has just been beautiful, Clem. Thank Clem, the great. Thank you so much [00:31:00] for being on here. How can people find you?

Clementine Moss: Uh, yeah, Clem the great.com is great. Um, the band is Zarella, um, and the book is on Amazon. And I also, uh, it's on Audible as an audio book as well, so I read it.

Kara Goodwin: Oh, awesome. So that's gonna be key because more and more people just wanna listen to their books, so

Clementine Moss: I love listening to books. Yeah.

I, especially when the author reads it,

Kara Goodwin: Yeah.

Clementine Moss: there's something really special about that.

Kara Goodwin: Absolutely. Wonderful. Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much.

Clementine Moss: Thank you so much, Kara. Thank you,

Track 1: I.

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