351. The Dark Side of Spirituality and Alternative Health: How to Spot and Avoid Manipulation - Dr. Leland Stillman Pt 1

Kara Goodwin: [00:00:00] Welcome to the meditation conversation, the podcast to support your spiritual revolution. I'm your host, Kara Goodwin. And in this episode, I welcome Dr. Leland Stillman. I was really excited to talk to Dr. Stillman about his expertise in the effect of minerals, light, and heavy metals on our health and wellbeing.

We ended up spending a lot of time talking about risks and watchouts for engaging in alternative health and spiritual spaces and how each of us has experienced being taken advantage of in those particular areas.

Because we had such a rich discussion about that, I've split my interview with Dr. Stillman into two episodes so you can better know what you're getting with each one. In part two, we'll talk about the mind and minerals. And then unfortunately we ran out of time before I could ask about the other topics I was interested in, like light and heavy metals.

So I'm [00:01:00] rebooking him and you can look forward to another episode where we can explore those topics.

Dr. Leland Stillman studied biology and environmental health at Connecticut College and received his medical doctorate from the University of Virginia. He then trained in internal medicine at Maine Medical Center. He practiced as a hospitalist for three years following his residency training, and he went on to found his own practice just before COVID.

He has a longstanding interest in alternative medicine and now focuses on functional and integrative medicine in his practice.

I know you're going to love hearing about what Dr. Stillman has to share, so we'll get started with his interview in just a second. But first, for you plant lovers out there, are you familiar with Pureleaf? Pureleaf is an alternative and complementary approach to conventional plant care and pest control methods.

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 Welcome Dr. Stillman, I'm so excited to be with you today.

Dr. Leland Stillman: Thank you very much. It's

great to be here.

Kara Goodwin: So let's start by talking a little bit about what brought you to functional medicine.

Dr. Leland Stillman: Great question. It was the struggles that my, uh, sister and I faced as children growing up in Manhattan, New York city in the late 1980s. We had run of the mill medical issues for kids of that generation in that place. Ear infections, cold, sore throats, lots of acute illnesses. Um, my sister had to have her [00:03:00] eyes, um, released after they crossed when she was very young. And I ended up having recurrent ear infections that almost required surgery. So my mother describes my second year of life as just chronically being on antibiotics. This then got her off of the conventional medical train, so to speak, after she became very disillusioned with their methods and how they treated patients and how they looked at the body, you know, their model of medicine. And she went into the integrative world and we worked with all kinds of people. We went to dousers. We did things like coining and cupping. If people know what those are. Uh, we went to homeopaths, we went to energy healers, we went to chiropractors. Uh, and I became fascinated by. What I saw, and as I got older and became more discerning and learn more about the world, it became apparent to me that there were a lot of people in this space who had a lot to [00:04:00] offer.

And then, of course, there were also a lot of people who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. And so, or, and then there was just a straight up people who are, are, uh, quite frankly, taking advantage of people, which really relates actually, I think a lot to, uh, meditation and the spiritual space.

Cause there's a lot of people in that space who are, are really, toxic, which I've just found over and over again, which is one of the things that I, I counsel people on when I recommend something like meditation for their wellbeing, because I don't want them to be, uh, to have a bad experience. Right. So that's how I got into functional medicine. And then I went to conventional medical school and residency training after that in internal medicine. So I specialize in adults, sick adults, but we do take children in my practice, uh, particularly kids. Most of the children we consult on there, they've been, you know, injured by something specifically, um, some kind of iatrogenic issue.

So something from the conventional medical system, that's complications from the conventional medical [00:05:00] system that their parents are looking for help. Um, resolving and, and reversing and getting a hold on. So

that's what I do now.

Kara Goodwin: Hmm. Thank you for that. I, I have not heard of coining. What is that?

Dr. Leland Stillman: Coining and cupping is a traditional Southeast Asian, um, therapeutic modality where oil is rubbed on the skin and then a coin or a cup is used to rub the skin. And it causes what, you know, in the Western lexicon would be called bruising. Blood comes to the surface of the blood vessels as the blood vessels are burst. And it's, I found it to be very painful. I hated it. I actually ran away once when my mother was trying to get me to sit still for this. And, uh, I have no idea if it works at all, but we tried it.

So,

Kara Goodwin: I'm definitely familiar with cupping, but I, I, uh, didn't know that those things went together, even what that was. That's [00:06:00] fascinating. So let's dig a little deeper into what you were explaining with the meditation and spiritual worlds and the risks that come with some of that. You know, this is the meditation conversation.

So I know that there are people who will want to know a little bit more about the toxicity and some of the watchouts. To be aware of.

Dr. Leland Stillman: absolutely. So

where to begin?

Kara Goodwin: Yeah.

Dr. Leland Stillman: I, uh, you know, that's so interesting. It's so interesting that you asked me that question. No one's ever asked me that question, but I did open the door to it.

Didn't I?

Kara Goodwin: And I want to say, I'm not, I'm with you. I know there are a lot of watch outs out there, so I'm not trying to like, uh,

Dr. Leland Stillman: Yes.

Kara Goodwin: you know, put you into a corner or anything, but I

Dr. Leland Stillman: I appreciate that.

Kara Goodwin: uh, we need to explore these things.

Dr. Leland Stillman: Well, I [00:07:00] think it's worth explaining briefly what I think about meditation. Because I think meditation means many different things to many different people. You know, I hear, I'm a Christian. I go to church every Sunday. I often hear Christians, um, saying, you know, we shouldn't meditate.

It's not part of our, our practice. It's not part of our theology. It opens the door to all kinds of occult, um, demonic forces and so on and so forth. However, the King James version of the Bible very clearly describes Jesus meditating many, many times. I don't, I've never done a word count on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it actually says Jesus meditated more than it says he prayed. When I recall reading from one of Joe Dispenza's books on meditation is that, you know, he has a whole chapter on what is it, and he likens it to gardening the mind. Which in a Christian sense is actually very much aligned with things that are said in the Bible, like take every thought captive, right? [00:08:00] Um, and so I think in the end I look at meditation as being an act of gardening the mind. And you're trying to get rid of the thoughts that are undermining your health and well being and you're trying to install new thoughts and new programs in order to create your wellness from your illness, as we say in the practice, my practice, my medical practice and my coaching practice, because we actually have a coaching business, coaching practice and a medical practice for those who are curious. So that's how I look at meditation. However, um, one of the reasons why people like the gross materialist reductionistic model of medicine. Is that it is verifiable and repeatable and quantifiable. The reason they like that is that they understand that as you get into the more abstract, the more philosophical, the more theological, the more, uh, spiritual dimensions of life and [00:09:00] practice, the harder it is to know what's true. And what's not true. And I was reading this recently because of some interpersonal relate and their interactions. I was having with someone who, uh, who I felt took advantage of me. And I was reading this definition of the word manipulation. And to manipulate someone and this definition, by the way, I'm paraphrasing from a book called don't, you know, who I am by Dr. Romany Durvasula. And she basically describes manipulation as the act of assessing other people and where they are and what they're doing and how they're living their lives and the choices they're making and their inclinations and everything about them and then behaving in such a way. As to get what you want out of the interaction with them without, um, regard for the consequences of that for them. So I'll give you a very real example [00:10:00] because this is how this came up. I came up in the context of sales. I told someone that I felt their sales tactics that they were advocating or recommending that I use were unethical and they essentially rationalize the ethics of their, their sales strategy. And people who are listening to this, if you haven't run into this, you will. In the meditation, integrative functional medicine space, there are tactics in sales called high pressure sales tactics, and one of these tactics is, um, and many of these, most of these tactics, all these tactics are manipulative on a fundamental psychological level. I frankly view meditation as something where you. You need to become grounded in yourself to the point that you have defenses psychologically against these, by the way. So they were rationalizing their high pressure sales tactics as we're getting them out of their way. We're helping them achieve a better state. They don't know what's best for them. They don't [00:11:00] really deserve to have the freedom that they would like to have in this situation and they should. Basically be grateful to us for taking those choices away from them so that they will get what's best for them. The way that might look in a, in a high pressure sales. Situation is someone says something along the lines of, um, uh, well, you know, this is a 5, 000 program, but think about it.

We just spent 20 minutes talking about how the results are priceless. This is a priceless opportunity. And while that might be true, you might be talking about a marriage counseling course that could save your marriage, that could save you millions of dollars. You might be talking about a health coaching or medical program that might save you tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills. That might be true, but I've seen the flip side of that where someone goes into financial hardship in order to pay for something, [00:12:00] right? Or they rob themselves of their time and they lose their time for their self care and it creates more stress, more strain and more disease than it solves. So when I, and the reason I, I, I start with that is just that I've seen so much of this now in the integrative functional medicine space, which includes, I would say things like meditation uh, it's really shaped my thinking about it because I've seen both the good and the bad. You know, I've never seen somebody like, say, and I mentioned Joe Dispenza, my name, because I like his work. I think his books are excellent. He's very focused on the science. And he's not, uh, he seems very genuine to me, very authentic. And I appreciate that about him. Uh, whereas I've seen a lot of people, you know, suck people into their ideas about spirituality, meditation, the universe, and then those people have ruthlessly exploited those [00:13:00]people. Um, I've seen this recently in multiple examples that I won't share too much. On the details of, um, and

it's very dark. And so people need to be very careful with this because, you know, if, if you're opening your mind to new practices and new behaviors and new ways of thinking, that's a avenue or way for people to come into your mind and shape your perception of reality to make choices that work for them, but don't work for you. And the way we turn this around in our practice. Uh, because what we were confronted with was this model of, well, here's how you basically do sales, you know, and, and, and, uh, speak to customers to get them to buy your medical program. And I did not like this way of speaking to them, because what I know in my heart is that it's inauthentic, it's manipulative. And I know that because I've had, I've, I've had people come into [00:14:00] medical programs. Not because I sold them, but because they bought, because I never really used these tactics in this way. And I realized that there's another side of the conversation that has to be had in these conversations of, and it looks something like this. I want you to understand this medical program that you may be joining us for can really help you in your health. But I'm also sensitive to the fact that the stress of the finances of affording something like this, because when we do medical programs, they're all inclusive. They're very intensive. We include labs, supplements, and clinical care.

So it can be over a thousand. It is over a thousand dollars a month. Now it's not forever and we're transparent about the pricing. You know exactly what you're getting and what it's worth and we're giving you an excellent deal. Deal. But I've seen people do this in an opposite way where you don't really know what you're getting. It's not really transparent and many people feel underwhelmed and then it doesn't feel good to them. They feel sold. They feel manipulated. And so we, we have a balanced conversation, what I call an authentic conversation around the [00:15:00] risks and benefits, right? You can join this medical program. It's going to be expensive.

You know that a significant investment. We're here for you. We would love to take you on because we know that we can get you great results. However, we're also sensitive to the fact that this may cause stress in your life and maybe a burden or hardship. We don't want you to do it. If you think that maybe this expense and this amount of time would create more stress and illness in your life than it will solve.

MedicalCityHospital. com So it's your decision, but these are the options that you have and we would love to take you on.

So that's how I feel like authentic communication works in what I do. And it actually does go back to this concept of, or it does go back to the whole idea of meditation because it took me a long time to realize that that was how I had to communicate with patients.

And that was what was missing from a lot of medical interactions. It doesn't matter if you're talking about whether you're going to the operating room for a, Coronary artery bypass graft, or you're joining a, you know, group coaching fitness bootcamp, or you're, you know, engaging with a functional medicine doctor like me. [00:16:00] You know, the better, the more authentically I started to show up for people, the better I felt about myself, the better I felt about my interactions with patients. And all of that came back really to meditating upon You know, what should this look like? How should I treat people? What makes me feel good? All right. And I've noticed that a lot of people who get into spirituality, they pay lip service to helping connect people to their emotions. But the truth is they actually want to create rationalizations in their mind for behaviors we're That don't truly authentically serve them so that they can then take advantage of them and they need to sever this connection between the heart and the mind, excuse me, the heart of the mind.

Yes. Well, really, the heart and the brain, because the truth is the mind has this reputation of being in the brain when in fact, much of our memory Is stored in the heart. Tom Cowan's book on a human heart, cosmic heart actually goes into this in great detail. It's an exceptional book for anyone who's [00:17:00]interested. And they, they rely on rationalizations to sever this connection, to get people to continue to behave in a way that doesn't honor their true values. And that isn't truly an alignment with who they really

are.

Kara Goodwin: Thank you for that. I couldn't agree more. Um, I have had, you know, in the course of my own experience, I have joined coaching programs that are, you know, how to help reach more people type of

Dr. Leland Stillman: I know.

Kara Goodwin: You know, and it, and I've bought into these with that whole, you know, you have a mission, you have a purpose.

Do you have some blocks that keep you from being able to reach people? And. In joining those programs, I have realized they're trying to train guru. They're trying to like help you become a guru with that [00:18:00] model of

psychological manipulation. And it is this like, You're focusing on what they need, but they may not know what they need.

So you really need to highlight this problem for them because they may not even see the problem they have. And like you're saying, it's not that it's that that's not true, but it's how do you devise this whole system that gives them. Different, you know, different ways to come in and become dependent on you is the, is the whole thing.

And I have left these programs. I actually was proud of myself for getting a refund in the last

Dr. Leland Stillman: Good for you.

Kara Goodwin: that went that direction. And I was like, this is not what I signed up for and was able to get a full refund, which I was like, Well, good for them that they were in integrity to be able to,

Dr. Leland Stillman: Absolutely. I

agree.

Kara Goodwin: But, um, but it [00:19:00] is, I also have experienced being in. Spiritual groups that I realized were doing exactly what we're talking about, where I, you know, cause the thing is, is that you, you don't know until you're in it, right? Like the coaching program or a spiritual group or whatever. You have to be grounded enough, exactly what you're saying.

You have to develop your own intuition, kind of be able to feel into. Is this overreaching? Are you coming into, you know, the, are you overstepping your boundaries? Are you siphoning from me or attempting to siphon? And I've been in spiritual groups that I've realized that have are doing this. So I've walked away and in kind of communicating with other people who were walking away as well, they were latching onto the next, One, you know, a lot of times I was seeing them just shifting their focus to the [00:20:00] next leader

Dr. Leland Stillman: I know.

Kara Goodwin: in a very, you know, and again, going back to that, like being grounded, being connected to yourself, being able to be in your own heart and recognize that.

You know, this is pervasive and just because you found a different guru, for lack of a better word, you know, if we're talking about the spiritual community, but even again, like even coaching programs, just because you found your next coach and you can't yet see the manipulation that's going on, there doesn't mean that you don't need, you know, it's like just next one, let my guard down, you know, And I also noticed one of the first kind of programs, it was actually a doctor who, you know, so it was kind of, um, that sort, it wasn't, it was spiritual, but it had like a medical sort of component.

Um, The programs are very, very [00:21:00] expensive. So there were in person like destination programs. There were online programs, but they were really, really expensive. And a lot of them were

Dr. Leland Stillman: Do you mind giving us a ballpark? I'm

curious.

Kara Goodwin: Uh, gosh, I don't even remember. It's been a while, but you know, one of them wasn't on.

Dr. Leland Stillman: 20K?

Kara Goodwin: No, not that bad. Not that bad.

Um, maybe 2k for, you know, a few day retreat, which is a lot of One thing, if it's in person, because you've got the, you know, food and the facility and so forth, but

Dr. Leland Stillman: Exactly.

Kara Goodwin: this was during COVID time and it was supposed to be an in person retreat that they moved to an online retreat and gave no refund. And it was like, Whoa, your costs just went way down.

So why am I not getting any recoup for, you know, my meals and my, you know, the, the facility [00:22:00] charge and all anyway. Um, again, I will say that I was able to get a refund, but I don't know that everybody was. Sometimes it's like when you, they know you have a podcast. I don't know if they're like a little bit more like, let's just be careful here because you know, maybe I have more reach or anyway,

Dr. Leland Stillman: It might be.

It might be.

Kara Goodwin: but, um, I, but I kept waiting for this leader to.

Say things like, don't feel that you have to go to all these programs, you know, because there was always a point in the event where she would start talking about all of the upcoming things. And they're in this location and we're going to go to France and we're going to go to Florida and we're going to go to Sedona and.

All of the inward, this cruise and all of these things. And so many people were locked in. It was like, okay, I'm a, I'm signing up for this next one. And this one and this one. [00:23:00] And I kept waiting for her to be like. Don't feel that you need to go to everything,

Dr. Leland Stillman: Mm hmm.

Kara Goodwin: you know, and kind of guide people in this, like, like be responsible.

And there was never any of that. There was always a good portion of time that went towards here are the next things that you can join. And that was a flag for me. So that's just another thing that I feel like people can kind of keep in mind, cause it is very. you know, you don't want to miss out, but there's a part of us that doesn't want to miss out.

So, you know, keep yourself in check because that's another way that, uh, you know, we can be tempted to be siphoned.

Dr. Leland Stillman: I see it happening all the time in medicine. It's happened to me with more than one, you know, mentor. And it really, when this, when I really woke up to this was around the time I also got more interested in meditation [00:24:00] and meditation. Because whenever you have a disillusioning experience with someone. It's a sign that your mental map of the world is off. It's dramatically wrong in some way, right? You fall in love with someone and then you find out who they really are and, you know, you think, how could I have been so wrong? You know, people say I do and then all of a sudden they feel like six months later they're married to a monster.

You know, how did they miss these warning signs? People get into coaching or mentorship relationships like we've been talking about. And all of a sudden they say, wow, I can't believe that based on how you treated me and sold me in the, in the initial encounter, this is how you're showing up now that I'm sort of on the hook, you know, uh, and you know, we could go on, right.

Every kind of relationship that's going to happen. And, and I had these wake up calls in my career where I was thinking to myself, my gosh, how did I, how did I get here? And I went into medicine in part because I didn't like talking about feelings, um, and I wasn't comfortable with it. I [00:25:00] wanted to focus on the numbers and the data and the biochemistry. Uh, I was, uh, very socially awkward growing up, I think, anyway, and people tended to like me, but I didn't feel like I could relate to them well. And I was very introverted, didn't spend a lot of time talking to other people, love to just read and learn and write on my own. And that made me a very good student, which made me very suited to medicine. Uh, and then I got out into the medical system and I felt like it was just totally taking advantage of people. It left right in the center. I mean, no one here should be surprised by that. I mean, I wrote about this in my book, dying to be free about what an absolute fraud the conventional medical system has become and how rapacious it is and its appetite for money and power and authority over people. But I kept having these experiences outside of that system and saying, wow, my map of the world is wrong because all the things that I complained about when I worked in the hospital, I'm seeing these things in the integrative medical space. [00:26:00] And somehow I keep running into them. So my map's got to be wrong. And if people don't understand what I'm talking about when I mean maps, you've got to look into this concept of the map is not the territory. I learned about it through neurolinguistic programming, which is really worth checking out just because it's valuable information in life. Um, it's got a lot in common with hypnosis, which is also a very interesting, uh, rabbit hole to fall down. But I checked my mental map and I thought, I said, there's something wrong here. There's something really wrong. And it mostly grew out of mentors manipulating me into doing things that I regretted. And the regret would show up, and I'll never forget this, it showed up for me once. You know, like almost a year after the thing that I regretted doing and I started to just cry about this and really came to regret and feel the regret and I realized later as I learned about more about the heart and the brain and how they communicate and how people relate to one another that. You know, what I had done was out of [00:27:00] alignment with my values, but I'd rationalized it by listening to this mentor. And I realized that then I got back into touch with my values and alignment with my values. And I connected my heart to my, my brain again. And, uh, that was what allowed me to then have this insight that I had been misled by this person and taken advantage of by then.

And then I, I promptly thereafter, um, uh, severed all communication with that person, but it opened my eyes to the fact that I, and it's so funny the way that actually ended up happening was. YouTube started to feed me videos by a woman named Ramani

Durvasala, who wrote this book.

Kara Goodwin: author that you were talking about? Okay.

Dr. Leland Stillman: Yes. Uh, who wrote this book, Don't You Know Who I Am? And, uh, I started reading her work and watching her videos, and I thought, Oh my gosh. Uh, her work is on narcissistic personality disorder. And interestingly enough, she fell into that work because she had been Um, working in the medical setting, trying to figure out which patients were causing provider, you know, nurse, doctor burnout. And [00:28:00] it turned out that the people who are causing burnout in the healthcare system were narcissists. They were, you know, they were just awful to the, to the providers. And I knew exactly what that was as a healthcare provider, but I'd thought, I thought to myself as I was reading her work, I thought, I thought these people were normal because in the medical system, there's so much toxic. Interpersonal relationship. Um, there's so much toxicity to people's interpersonal relationships. It's completely normalized. Uh, in the, in the conventional healthcare system, which is why so many patients feel so uncomfortable in the conventional healthcare system. And, you know, her books helped me understand what, you know, it's putting words to a feeling. Uh, there's a funny maxim of law. It says a matter must be expressed to be resolved. And whenever you hear someone's words that resonate with your experience, that align with your values, uh, they're expressing feelings that you've had. And that's [00:29:00] what makes those words powerful. And her words just leapt off the page to me, page after page, chapter after chapter.

And I started to realize this is why I'm unhappy in life. This is why I don't like my job. This is why, you know, I'm struggling to find, you know, my place in the world. Even though I had, I had in a way, I sort of had it all. I was a doctor. You know, I was free, you know, I, I could, I like, I, I owned a home. I had the car I wanted. I could move anywhere I want to travel anywhere I wanted. But I felt very sad and very empty because I hadn't learned how to manage my personal relationships and my professional relationships and also my doctor patient interactions in a way that aligned with my personal values because I'd never seen it done. And that was how this whole journey really got started into emotions, relationships, mindset, meditation, um, And I wouldn't know if it's, [00:30:00] it comes to mind just the phrase who we really are, what we really are. So I, I started to learn about narcissistic personality disorder and the descriptions she has in her book of the behaviors are just dead on. They're very striking in terms of how succinct and how powerful they are in drawing. Lines between what's normal or what's sort of normal, um, behavior and what's pathological. And then once I had a handle on that, it gave me a much better map of the world by which to navigate. And then it led me eventually, and this is really only recently, I really only figured a lot of this out.

Not a lot. It's been a process for the last couple of years, but I really, really. Um, kind of feel like I, I, I started to really, um, what's the word I'm looking for. Recently, [00:31:00] I, I started to have more of these revelations, particularly in my practice that got me to this place where now I am, where I think, wow, I'm really, really, really comfortable and really happy with how we're taking care of patients, nothing to do with the protocols we use. The books we recommend, the group coaching, we do the one on one consults. I have the technical material has not changed at all. It's the way we build craft. Manage and engage in the relationship and the way we show up for the patients. And it's been transformative. And a lot of it came out of these experiences with meditating and getting in touch with my body and getting in touch with my heart and learning, you know, what does it really mean to be authentic to people and to me? And I think a big problem that we have both faced clearly from our conversation today is that because this is such a big problem, there's an enormous number of people who are out there busy. Taking advantage of it and taking advantage of the fact that people maybe didn't get the [00:32:00]leadership they needed in youth to have an understanding of these things implicitly. And so they're looking for mentorship in adulthood and someone to help them reshape their mental model of the world. Into a, in a way that will give them more authentic relationships and help them achieve their goals in a way that's in alignment with their values. Because that's something that I think a lot of these business coaches and, you know, whoever they may be, they don't speak about achieving your goals in a way that's in alignment with your values. They just speak about achieving the goal. And that's, to me now, a significant red flag.

Kara Goodwin: I love that and I feel that we're going to have, this is going to be a two part, um, episode, which I didn't intend, but we've covered such amazing ground here and I know it's not really related to the core work that you do, [00:33:00] but this is such an amazing topic and you have such a great perspective on it.

And so. I want to honor that as its own episode. And then we'll, we'll have the second part as a different episode so that people can see when they are going to engage with what we're talking about. Because if that makes sense, so, so I'm going to shift now over to your work

Dr. Leland Stillman: Thank you.