The Labyrinth of Enlightenment

[00:00:00] So, what do you get when you cross near death experience situations, out of body experiences, interactions with invisible entities, with the challenges of disbelief, isolation, substance misuse, and skepticism towards spirituality? Well, of course you get this week's guest. Now today we dive into what exactly attaining enlightenment in today's world really means, how the ego can serve as both a barrier and a teacher, and even what roles trauma, suffering, and survival play, and how these difficult experiences can be catalysts for profound spiritual breakthroughs.

This is a very full episode of the Skeptic Minute Physicians, and it starts now.

[00:01:00]

Ray Catania. Welcome to the Skeptic Winner positions. We are so excited to have you on the show.

Ray: It's an honor and a privilege to be with you today. Thank you guys. I really appreciate you having me.

Karen & Will: Well, I, I, I'm impressed that he said that before the interview.

Karen: I know. Well, that's because it's before the interview. He might just be slipping out at the end. Where'd he go?

Karen & Will: Well, um, long time listeners have known, uh, this about us. Uh, we, and we can either confirm or deny that one of us in the room might have been looking for spiritual enlightening, enlightenment pretty much their entire life.

I can either confirm or deny that. [00:02:00] So the very first question that comes to mind, because you are the guy that is going to help us all to spiritually awaken,

Ray: Oh boy.

Karen & Will: what, what could that theoretical person be doing wrong that they can't actually find their way to spiritual enlightenment?

Ray: Oh my gosh. Well, that there's so many hypotheticals that there could be there.

Karen & Will: Murder.

Ray: well, I, first and foremost, hypothetically, of course, um, I would say that we need to define enlightenment and are we speaking of enlightenment like the Buddha's enlightenment or are we talking about awakenings? Cause because sometimes people refer to enlightenment as awakenings.

And I think we have several awakenings on the way to enlightenment. Uh, I, I know I'm not enlightened and I'm not prepared to say that I am, and I'm a, definitely a life longer, just like the rest. Maybe I'll make it. I hope to, but I've had a lot [00:03:00] of awakenings and what can prevent an awakening or a next level up of consciousness.

Things like, uh, not cracking the ego, uh, still having it be a barrier between you and the rest of the world, perception, changing your perception, altering it, or not being able to alter it, I should say, to where nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. Right? Shakespeare said that in Hamlet, and it's very, very true and profound.

We decide what's good and what's bad. So, uh, that is, um, there's a few things that I talk about, but two of the big ones is the ego and the fact that we really have to remember that it, there is nothing that's good or bad. I mean, there, you're going to, and of course there's the exceptions of some real tragedies and things of that nature, but for the most part, we get pretty aggravated over little silly things

Karen & Will: Don't we though?

Ray: Yes, we do.

Karen & Will: All the time. Did we mention we had a day today? [00:04:00] Right. And it's so true because you go through the whole day thinking, okay, this is just a little thing. It's just a little thing. I'm just a little speck a dust on a, on a spinning sphere that's going around the cosmos at an infinitesimally small compared to, you And yet, Jared, how did you not use your blinker when you turned just now?

Ray: There you go. A classic example.

Karen & Will: it's so easy to lose your way. And then when you bring it into, into the conversation of spiritual awakenings, when you really need to be in the moment and understand that everything happens for a reason and everything that we experience actually helps to grow us and shape us into who we actually are.

And we've asked this question a lot, but how do you, how do you manage to keep that topmost of mind when you are in this rat race that we call a life right now?

Ray: Yeah, it's, um, I have one foot in and one foot out and I should really say that because you know, I'm not a hundred percent on one side or the other. I still have a mortgage, four [00:05:00] kids to put through college, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm very much in the rat race, but at the same time. Um, I had an awakening when I was writing the second book, I got to the end of the second book, and I had been working on this for years.

I mean, this wasn't something that just like poof and happened. Um, I had been doing something that I call retraining the brain, and it's really retraining the mind, but that didn't rhyme, so I went with brain. And, and it's, uh, catchier. And so I was retraining myself and every time, you know, if a car cut me off or something like that, I would, I would change my perception from the idiot just cut me off to the idiot never hit me.

And this is great. And you keep doing that over and over and over. And one day it clicked and it did it all by itself. There was a moment in time when I should have been livid. And, you know, I grew up a lot of trauma, a lot of violence, a lot of anger. [00:06:00] Definitely not a happy upbringing by any means. And then I pushed the envelope further.

Um, for those who know my story, it's pretty, pretty rough. And so my go to emotion for everything was always anger, right? And so here comes this time after several years of doing this training, um, I had a car accident and I was driving my car and, um, it was an expensive car and I thought that was a big deal at the time because my father had an expensive car, so I thought I was supposed to have one right now.

I realized it's just a piece of tin that gets me from point A to point B. But in the moment. I had an accident and I hit a deer and normally the old Ray would have been ranting and raving and yelling and screaming and who knows what I would have done. I really don't know. But the, what happened was none of that. In fact, a feeling of calmness took over my entire body and all I cared about was the deer. Did I hurt the deer? I thought I really did [00:07:00] because, you know, it flipped over and over and over. It was in the ice and snow and I really thought it was going to be dead. And now what am I going to do with the dead deer?

And I got out and I went and I picked her up. She stood up and like, I've never touched a deer. I don't know too many people who have, but you know, we kind of had this moment. She looked at me. I looked at her. I was like, Hey, I'm sorry. She's like, I'm sorry to and she walked off and I wasn't hurt and she's not hurt.

My car's trashed, but that's just the car. It's just a car. So I didn't have that reaction. And that was the first moment when I knew that my life had completely changed. But I didn't know who the heck I was anymore.

Karen & Will: Well, what,

Ray: Well,

Karen & Will: you change your, your reaction?

Karen: Well, that's a

Ray: I don't know what I'm going to do. And, you know, what happens is, is you're so used to acting a certain way and doing things a certain way, and I'm trying to reframe it for the better. And I accomplished that. But then I don't know who or what I am. I remember I was [00:08:00] telling the story to my acupuncturist the next day, and she's bawling.

She's just crying. That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. And and I'm like, yeah, but I don't know who I am anymore. Like, I don't know how I'm going to react. Am I going to be able to protect my family if somebody breaks in the house because I can't get pissed off. Like, nothing bothers me. I don't care. The bills come, I just throw them in the trash. If I feel like paying them, I pay them. If I don't, I don't. Like, I literally don't care. No one's going to come and put a gun to my head. I've had that done already. Nothing is going to scare me. So, when you realize this, nothing can really hurt you. You stop caring.

It's not that you, you know, I mean, I shouldn't say, you know, completely stop caring, but you don't get anxious. I don't get revved up. I just get around to things when I get to things. If I'm late, I'm late. And if I'm there, I'm there. Either way, it's going to be fine. [00:09:00] No one's going to die. Nothing bad is really going to happen.

And that's all made up in our heads.

Karen & Will: Hmm.

Karen: You know, I'm, I'm listening to that and I wanna say yes, but, um, as a woman who's been in a dangerous situation before, you know, I have a hard time saying, well, nothing could really hurt me because I, you know, I mean, I feel like something could hurt me and it wouldn't necessarily be in my head.

Karen & Will: Well, physically, physically it could be hurt, but I think, I think he goes deeper.

That's what I'm talking about. Deeper than just physical. I

Karen: think I'm, I'm

Ray: Well, no, I, I, I've been in two, three shootouts, um, I worked for some shady characters, I've nearly died about nine times, I've been beaten to within inches of my life. Nothing kills me. So really, no, I'm not scared. And when you overcome those things over and over and over, they become less traumatic each time that they happen.

Karen & Will: Hmm. So how does some, so go ahead,

Ray: Well, I was going to say, you know, I mean, a big transition for me was my NDE at the age of [00:10:00] 20. So I know that if I go, I know where I'm going. So I'm not really scared of that.

Karen & Will: That's a great point. I'm not scared of the

Karen: after, I'm just scared of the how, like that it's gonna hurt. I mean, I know I won't remember it, but

Ray: I'll give you a little good news. There's something about an NDE. I'll share with you in a bit when we get there,

Karen: Okay.

Karen & Will: Okay. So, so then how about if someone hasn't had their life beaten to an inch of their death and or been in several shootouts and had an NDE, how can we get ourselves to the point where we can get into an accident and just go, Oh, dear.

Ray: We'll see. So we've all had trauma and what we do is, uh, like the Buddha told us, if you look at the Buddha's life, he was a Prince. He could have had anything given to him, delivered to him. His father was the King, right? So, and his father said, you can have anything you want. Just never go beyond the walls of the compound.

So what does he do? [00:11:00] Goes beyond the walls of the compound. He's a kid, right? So it looks around and sees, wow, this horrible out here. No wonder he doesn't want me out here. So it goes back inside. Years goes by, he sneaks out a couple of more times. And what he realizes is people are suffering on the other side of the wall.

And on this side of the wall, everybody's got it made. So he realizes that in order to become enlightened or to, in order to, in his words, it was to, um, save the world from suffering, he must experience what suffering is because he had no idea. So what he tells us is you have to experience all the emotions on the spectrum.

all the bad and all the good in order to become enlightened because you can't become enlightened if you've only lived half a life. So I had a ton of bad, but I had no good. I had no love. So it took, I didn't find love, real true love until I was like 50 years old. And that's when I [00:12:00] had my awakening of 54, you know, so, um, my, I had enough for the bad.

I just didn't have any of the good. And then finally I found the good. And that was the last piece of my puzzle. And again, I'm not enlightened. I'm not saying that at all. I've got a long way to go, but I think I've got a handle on what it takes to get there. And so if you're missing the bed, you can, there are things that you can do.

And I'm not saying to put yourself in, in harm's way where you could die, literally. But the Buddha, he went out, you know, and I'm not saying to do what he did either, cause it was very dangerous. No food, no clothes, no water, no shelter, no nothing. And just left the compound. Um, and he was a homeless man for seven years.

They say could have been longer. I don't know how long, but the point is, is that he put himself through self induced suffering in order to experience, this is why if you go to a Buddhist monastery, They climb up a mountain on all fours to the top of the mountain and then climb back down on all fours every single day [00:13:00] before they have breakfast.

Karen & Will: Oh, good God.

Karen: Wow.

Ray: It's a form of suffering to, to, uh, prove to yourself. that you are not bothered by the suffering. It's being okay when nothing is okay.

Karen & Will: It's interesting because we've talked to a lot of people that say that just our being here on planet earth is the That is experiencing all myriad of things, joy, fear, anger, anguish, jealousy, rage, all these kinds of things. And we all have different experiences that when we all come back to our home, we rejoin and we've now we've got the benefit of that, those experiences together.

So

Ray: And trauma is relative. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Karen & Will: No, no, that's perfect.

Ray: That's where you were going. Yeah. Trauma is relative.

Karen & Will: Yeah. Uh, so then, but then why, why do we have to, if, if you're going through that for me, why do I gotta go [00:14:00] through it?

Ray: Well, I, you know, I do kind of, what I do is when I work with clients is I point out what their suffering was because chances are you've gone through it and your suffering is the worst suffering in the world because it's yours. My suffering is the worst. We don't need to do the comparison thing. You've been there, you've experienced it, we're just going to pull it out and show you that you're not a victim, you're a survivor.

And once you've accomplished that, you understand what the basis of this reality is.

Karen & Will: Oh, Ray, you just gave me chills. That must mean real stuff is happening here because, uh, no, you're right. It wasn't, it wasn't until very recently that I found that I went through trauma. Um, and, and it, it had affected me for my entire life without me being aware of it. So becoming aware of it does, did help a lot, but.

Uh, you looked like you had a question.

Karen: No, I was, I'm just thinking about the monks, you know, crawling up the hill or the mountain and down the mountain. So here's a question about [00:15:00] that. Is it really suffering when you know, you don't have to do it? Like when you know, you don't have to do it the next day or you could just walk down.

Ray: You have to do it. You sign up, you're going to do it. I mean, you could quit and walk away in shame, but it's going to be rough.

Karen: right. But I mean, there's that option,

Ray: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not taking that option. I don't know too many guys that are going to take that option.

Karen: I guess, I guess it's more like it's, it's your, when it's a choice. Is it as, um, impactful as if it's not a choice?

Ray: I think it's more impactful if you inflict it upon yourself and you do it as whereas if it comes out of left field, um, I think because you ultimately, you may get more out of it. I mean, and I'm just speculating here because I can't, I didn't have it that way. I had it the other way.

There's something, um, that Native Americans do, um, and a lot of indigenous cultures do this [00:16:00] around the world. It's, uh, it's called, um, Habla Chia, if I'm not mistaken, and what they do is when a boy is about the age of 13, 14, which is when they become, he becomes a man, quote unquote. They take him to the middle of the woods, uh, they strip him of everything, no food, no clothes, no water.

They make a square around him with nothing more than what they call, um. Uh, spiritual vines and it's like a 10 by 10 box and they leave him there for four days and they come back on the fourth day and they see what he's learned. By the fourth day, you've been hallucinating.

Karen & Will: Oh, yeah. I bet.

Ray: so the, uh, the idea is to go through that suffering.

You will survive it because everyone, well, I think everyone does, I shouldn't say everyone does. I don't know. But when I first heard of that, I was like, Oh my God, sign me up. I want to do it. You know, I want to, I want to, I want to push myself. And don't you know, like a week later, I got this really bad intestine, uh, infection, right?

I totally manifested this. You can't tell me I didn't. And, and I [00:17:00] wound up in the hospital. I could not eat or drink or move for four days. Exactly. Yup. And, and they were, they were just pumping IVs in me and it was the most excruciatingly painful thing. And all I did was meditate for four days. I came out of that feeling like a God.

I was like, nothing's can bother me now.

Karen & Will: Wow. Right. I mean, we all talk, we talk about it a lot about, uh, growth happening at the edge of your comfort zone. And the only way to grow is to put yourself in an uncomfortable position. I would say that's a little, a little far from what I was thinking about, but, uh,

Ray: said to my wife was, have you heard this Habla Chia thing? It was on Yellowstone and we watched it on Yellowstone. Like the guy does it because he wants to find his spirit, God, uh, uh, animal. And I was like, wow, that's awesome. I want to do that. Two weeks later, I'm in the hospital and I'm laid up.

There you

Karen: Wow.

Ray: I'm going to watch what I say from now on to my

Karen: Uh huh.

Karen & Will: You are a powerful man, Ray. Definitely.

Ray: a powerful woman.

Karen & Will: She was like, okay. That's usually how it goes, right? [00:18:00] Uh, All right. Well, you tease a little bit earlier on about your NDE, and I'm really curious because those, those stories really are, uh, a linchpin for me. Like we, everyone knows I used to be deathly afraid of death.

Is that such a thing? Deathly afraid of death. Okay. It is today. Uh, until like all these stories of NDEs have helped me tremendously to get beyond that. But when we come back, we got to take a break, but when we come back, I want to dive into your NDE and everything that goes along with it because your story is remarkable.

And I want that, uh, make sure that we got a chance to share that. So stay with us. We'll be right back.

Will: Hey, we have another five star review. Today comes from Teraya, uh, T E R R A Y A. Uh, and the topic of the review is [00:19:00] Teraya's spiritual awakening journey. They go on to say, your podcast has been an absolute game changer for me. As someone on a spiritual journey for the past five years, your show has been an incredible companion, confirming and enhancing the awakening I've been experiencing.

The insights shared have truly opened my eyes, offering guidance and wisdom that has resonated deeply within me. Thank you for creating such a transformative and enlightening space. Well, Taraya, you are very welcome. And thank you so much for not just listening to the show, but leaving us a review. This helps everyone out there to learn what a cool show we actually are.

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Can't appreciate you enough. Now, if you'd like to hear your review right on the air, just go to skeptic, metaphysician. com. You can leave us a review or voicemail directly from the site or go to Apple podcasts and leave us a review there that will go a long way towards providing social [00:20:00] proof to people who are looking for shows like this one, that this is one worth listening to.

Once again, Tariya, we really, really appreciate you taking the time to leave us a review. And I guess now it's time to get back to the show.

Karen & Will: Welcome back to the Skeptic Manifestations. We are talking to Ray Catania, who is a spiritual teacher. He helps people to awaken spiritually. He helps, I should rephrase that, he helps people regain instinctually or intuitively he knows what's real.

Might be missing and what tools you need to move forward in your next step in your spiritual awakening That's probably a better way of putting it. I

Ray: Very, very good. Yeah.

Karen & Will: Okay. Yeah. So right. Thank you.

Ray: Thumbs up.

Karen & Will: tap. I love getting a tap from my wife. Like good boy. Right. That's a good thing.

Karen: It's better than the thumbs down.

Definitely better than the thumbs

Karen & Will: down. Yeah. Uh, so right before the break, we tease your NDE and I don't even want to say [00:21:00] anything because I want to hear from your own words. Tell us how, what happened, how did it happen and what happened after it happened?

Ray: So, uh, I was 20 years old and I was still living at home with my parents at that moment and, um, my bedroom was located on the second floor of the house, right below my bedroom was the kitchen. And the stove ran on natural gas and there was a gas leak. So the gas was rising all night long into my bedroom where I was asleep and I was inhaling it and breathing it in. So by morning, uh, my mother gets up, uh, I guess she turned on the stove to make breakfast and it just kind of like blew up in flames. It was a big ball of fire. The wall caught on fire. My mom was okay, actually. She came out of it unscathed, and the way I understand, my father put the fire out pretty quickly with a fire extinguisher.

So it wasn't the fire, it wasn't the smoke, it was the gas. I was inhaling gas. So, I'm upstairs, and I hear the commotion. I hear the fire [00:22:00] trucks, I hear the police, I hear the radios. All this commotion downstairs, and I go up to get out of bed to find out what the heck is going on in my house, right? So when I go to get up, this is when I first noticed something's terribly wrong.

My legs, I can't move them at all. They just feel like they're a thousand pounds each. They're just dead weight. My head's dead weight. I can't get it up off the pillow. I can't yell because certain parts of my body, they're just not working. They're not cooperating. And, uh, my arms, I have, for some reason, that's what I had.

So I was able to pull myself to the edge of the bed and I'm pulling and I'm pulling. And each time I would get a little close to the edge, I pass out and I really get. angry because I'm trying to stay awake because to the best of my ability, I know if I don't get out of the bed, I'm dead. There's no question.

No one's coming up here for, for whatever reason. I don't know. Probably, you know, we'll do that another story another day. coming out. I'm trying to pull myself and finally I get to the edge, [00:23:00] right? And I tumble out and I, and I go down face first and I hit my face first on the hardwood floor, right?

This much I know. And right as I hit, I hear it, I feel it, but here's the funny thing, to your point earlier, um, that there was no pain. It was almost like right before there was going to be pain, I was out, I was spared it,

Karen & Will: There you go, Karen.

Karen: Okay.

Karen & Will: I feel better. She's on board

Ray: I hear a lot of people with the same story, right, that I've spoken to later in life.

Um, but so now I am above my body. I'm in the picture of the room is a perfect square, right? It's a perfect square and I came out of the bed. So I'm kind of like closer to the farther away side and I'm in the corner like a neutral corner, like in a boxing match, I'm in a neutral corner and I'm looking over my dead body and I'm just watching myself not moving, [00:24:00] maybe twitching a little bit and you know, that's it.

And then adjacent to me on the other side of the adjacent corner has a huge cone shaped white light. And this light is, I mean, by calling it a light, it's an injustice. It is, um, it is love, it is euphoria, it is painlessness, it is just absolute pure love and euphoria. And I, I have no body now. So I'm a part of this light.

It's on me. Like I'm on a stage and the lights on me, but I'm also part of that light and I can go into it. It's like a tunnel and I can go into it. And I am going into it, uh, because there's a being at the end of the light that says, It's okay, Ray. You can come in and I'm like, he knows my name. I don't know.

I didn't know if it's a he or [00:25:00] she or what, you know, I'm not, but because you're not hearing anything. It's a transmission of information. You just get it. So I'm going to call it a key for now. And he says, come into the light. It's safe to come into the light. And I don't trust anybody in this time of my life, but I trusted this being.

So I go into the light and as I go deeper, the euphoria increases, let me tell you, I've done a lot of drugs in my life. Nothing feels this good. Nothing.

Karen & Will: Um, hmm. I don't know.

Ray: no, no, no, no. And, and, and don't go out and try this at home

Karen & Will: No. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the disclaimer. Yeah, that's

Ray: yeah, yeah, big disclaimer. Uh, you know, sometimes we get accused of romanticizing this a little bit and then, you know, blah, blah, blah.

So let's, you, you, you gotta come back, you gotta finish your business. But anyway, uh, So I'm heading down and I want to go all the way to the other side. Now, what happens is my father, they must've heard the thumb, right? So he comes running up the stairs, he kicks in the door and he scoops me up. And he's like, Oh my God, my [00:26:00] son, he's crying and he's screaming for the paramedics and I'm watching this.

And I'm like, wow, this guy loves me. Like we didn't have a good relationship at all. I didn't have a good relationship. My parents at all. It was fucking horrible. Sorry. You might as well bleep that. Um, You know, I was shocked. I was shocked. So I asked the being if I could go back because like I always longed for that.

I wanted that. The man never hugged me. I had to be dead for him to hug me. So I wanted to go back and experience that. That's the truth. And, uh, you know, I was allowed to come back. And I wasn't in his arms anymore. I was now in his arms. When I woke up, I was on the living room floor and the paramedics are doing all kinds of things to me with their tools and gadgets and whatnot.

And, and I'm like, the euphoria is still inside me. So I'm like, guys, guys, get off me. I feel great. I feel fantastic. And they're like, son, you're anything but fantastic. So just lie there and let us do what we have to [00:27:00] do. And they, and I hear them talk in their lingo, like, bring up the truck, ramp the truck.

We got to get them going. He's got no BP. Don't BP. And, uh, you know, I'm at the moment, I'm just like high out of my mind. It's like, I'm high on an NDE. It feels fantastic. Um, I'm like, did you guys, did you hear the voice? Did you see the light? It was awesome. Wasn't it? And now they're looking at me like, ah, I'm on drugs and I'm crazy.

Karen & Will: Right.

Ray: I'm going to the wrong hospital if I don't shut the hell up. All right. So I just stopped, I just stopped talking. I let them take me away. And, you know, I, when I was a kid. I used to isolate myself a lot, you know, to stay away from what was going on in my house. I'd hide in closets and basements in my room.

I locked myself in the room and you know, it was just me and me, you know, we didn't have any cell phones, no computers, no nothing. So it's me, myself and I, and I'm staring at a wall. So it was like hours and hours of meditating. And when you do hours and hours of meditating, I know [00:28:00] today from yogis, um, who've done it, that we, you start to see energy.

Now, I didn't think anything of this. I was just staring at a wall, but if you stare at a wall long enough, you're going to, it's not a white wall or a yellow or a red wall. It has no paint. It has no color. It's not made of wood anymore. It's made of lines and you can see it. You can actually see the wavy lines.

And, you know, this is, again, not the ideal way to get here, but it's how I got there. And when I told anybody, I was crazy. And I was like, no, there, you know, sometimes things are floating around, they're right in the air, and you, you know, and You're out of your mind. And if you ever tell anybody that I will kill you.

Okay, mom. Okay, so I just let it rest. And like I did, you know, then they brought me to the hospital. I came back the next day. I was released. I think it was the next day. I was really out of it, but trying to figure out what I just saw what, you know, told my [00:29:00] parents and they're like, okay, you're absolutely crazy.

Never tell anybody that again or I will kill you. And I was like, okay, I will never tell anybody. you know, christian home,

Karen & Will: There's a lot of killing going on in your household there, right?

Ray: So, um, anyway, I just shut it down and this is how I did it. Um, I figured I fell in front of a window and it was a sunny day and the white light was the sun. And then, um, I just justified it away.

I inhaled so much gas that I hallucinated the voice and everything else and, and I put it away in a box and I made it not real. Just like my imaginary friends that were floating around when I was a kid. They're not real. And that's what I had to do. And that's how I lived my life

Karen & Will: right. And that's a very common story in that part of it. In fact, I think we all do that on an almost daily basis. We justify miracles that happen to us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Not, not quite as dramatic as yours, but, and I'm sure you've gotten the question a lot of times, like, what could it have been the gas that you inhaled, uh, making you [00:30:00] visualize these things or feel these things or hear these things because of the chemical composition of the gas in your brain, that kind of stuff.

But, but you, you feel 100%, this was an out of body experience with, um, that, that had nothing to do with the brain chemistry.

Ray: Absolutely. Absolutely. But I had a, I, I didn't have a computer that I didn't have Googled. I could just type it in and see what it was. Right. So I had literally nobody to speak to. Couldn't tell my parents, you know, didn't have any friends that I could talk to about this, you know, so I, I just had to let it go.

Um, but here's what happens. So, um, I'm a kid who could see energy and then I die. I cross over, I come back. Right. And talk about, I become like this portal for the other side and I bring a whole bunch of people back with me. I'm going to quote unquote energy beings, if you will. I move [00:31:00] into my first part of my apartment about, about like 21, 22.

And I'm psyched. I'm like, this is going to be great. It's going to be girls. It's going to be parties. It's going to be fantastic. It's going to be off the wall. You know, I'm, I'm very in, in the mindset of, I don't care if I live or die. Um, just living for today. I got absolutely no reason to live tomorrow. I don't care what happens.

Load it up with drugs and alcohol. Let's go. Let's party. Here we go. Right. Okay. I get into this apartment, none of that ever happens because the apartment is already filled with people and I didn't invite anybody over yet.

Karen & Will: Oh, hello.

Ray: there you can't see them. You can feel them, but you can't see them and they can turn the TV on TV off and they can put the blender on blender off.

They could turn the alarm on the alarm. I would call the maintenance guy a hundred times a day. And you know what he said to me? He said, kid, you're crazy.

Karen & Will: Right.

Ray: Don't call me again. Again, I'm crazy. So I just, I'm thinking, okay, I'm losing my mind and I'll just live it out and I'm [00:32:00] losing my mind and everything that I've been seeing since I was young, I'm crazy and I buy into that.

And then I started drinking and using massive amounts of drugs because I can't go to sleep and I can't stop seeing these things because they're all around. And um, so finally, uh, I had the worst case of insomnia and, and I was just, you know, taking everything to fall asleep. That was the objective really was to sleep because I couldn't sleep.

And I moved into the next apartment. I left that one. I went into another one. And I got there and I thought it was going to be a fresh start. Here we go. Parties. None. No. As soon as I got there, they're all there again. And the house isn't haunted, race haunted. They're coming with me wherever I go. But I don't believe you exactly.

I literally yell at them. I don't think you're real. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any of you guys go away. You know, I completely rebelled against my, my family's, uh, religion. I hated it. I was like, absolutely no way could there [00:33:00] possibly be some kind of loving God that's going to allow this stuff to happen to me.

I'm a kid. I did nothing to no one. So that was my take. On life, you know, there's no way after just everything goes black, the end, like the last episode of Sopranos, that's that,

Karen & Will: Let's not. That's a touchy

Ray: which I really like. I enjoyed it. I know no one else did, but I might have understood it a little bit. So it, it just, um, you know, so I lived the next 10 years of my life and putting myself, I would up the Annie and up the Annie and, you know, Put myself in worse situations and with worse and worse people and just, you know, didn't care.

Just literally did not care.

Karen & Will: And this was after your NDE. So,

Ray: So like 20 to 30.

Karen & Will: but then you, it's interesting. Oh, be, Oh, that's it. Because you put it away because you thought everyone was telling you that you're crazy. Couldn't have happened. It's not [00:34:00] real. So then of course that's, that makes

Ray: But in the back of my mind, you know, I know what I saw. I know what I know what I felt and I know the things that are going on around me. So, you know, there's a part of me that's like, you know, If I'm crazy, I'm crazy, whatever. But you know what? It's more likely that that was real and what's going to happen.

I'm just going to go back to that light.

Karen & Will: Right.

Ray: don't, don't mess with me.

Karen & Will: So then how did you get from that point where you were, uh, that angry kid, let's just put it that way, um, that wasn't believing in anything, even though you had undergone that NDE to the point where you now are sitting here helping others come to grips with the fact that they're not going crazy.

Ray: So first thing first, um, had kids, I got married and had two kids and then all of a sudden I had a reason to live and it was them two little tiny humans that were dependent on me. So I checked myself into rehab. I went back to college, got my degree, worked my way up, got a very, very good job, got another very, very good job.

[00:35:00] Worked my way up. The ladder was doing very well for myself. And the beings, they were just kind of, we had a ceasefire. You stay on your Saturday room, I stay on mine. And that's, that's really the way it was. And I just operated around it and I knew how to deal with it, you know? And, um, this went on for quite some time.

And then, um, I got divorced very quickly. I mean, it was like maybe three years, uh, we separated, uh, began the divorce proceedings, but I still had the kids and, um, You know, they were, I was not going to give them the life that I had. I was going to give them everything I didn't have. And then some, uh, and perhaps overcompensated, but whatever, you know, that's what happens.

Karen & Will: You hope. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking to the, you're speaking to the choir. Trust me.

Ray: right. We always want them to have better. And they're like, I gave him everything. Oh, whatever.

Karen & Will: Maybe a little too much.

Ray: But, um, you know, I think for the, all for the most part, they came out good, but what they did for me was way more than what I did for them, I think. And I dedicated, you [00:36:00] know, the book to them because. It was really, it was about that.

So, but for a long time I don't date and that's because I don't want to bring another woman into my young boy's lives. I got two boys and I'm going to bring another woman in and they're going to get really angry. So I didn't date for a very long time. And then finally I decide that I am going to date seriously.

I mean I might have a couple things here and there, but it was nothing serious. And then I got serious and I went online to find somebody and I came across a website and there was this woman that they always give you like these examples to get you to join. Like here's four women in your area, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Um, he would know. Uh, no you wouldn't. I'm just kidding.

Karen & Will: You're talking to, who are you talking about? Hmm.

Ray: one really goes on those sites. I know. So there she was

Karen & Will: these are sites we're talking about?

Ray: Yeah. Websites, the dating sites. Um, so I saw this woman and she just, I was like, oh my God, I know her. I've known her forever. I just know that I, that's [00:37:00] my wife, that's my wife. And I absolutely know this is my soulmate.

There is no question in my mind. I can feel it. I can see it. I know I can just, I understand that her and I are one. So I write to her and I tell her this. So I put it something like this. I was like, listen, uh, hi, it's really nice to meet you. My name is Ray. You're my wife. You really don't know this yet. I understand this sounds crazy, but we need to meet because you're my soulmate and we're going to live happily ever after. Call me. Here's my phone number.

Yeah. It was kind of like that. But it was a little, it was a little more crazier than that, but, and I actually,

Karen & Will: he's

Ray: be, and I, and I, and I copied and pasted, I put it in a book, um, and, and so, and her response, which was like, LOL, you're out of your mind. Uh, I need, who the hell are you? Right.

Karen & Will: really, my response would have been like, I'm calling the cops right now.

Ray: um, and so we, you know, we [00:38:00] wind up having dinner, we are married, we're together, it's been eight years later or whatever it is, and she's, there's no question, she's my soul mate. So when we're dating, here's what happens. Up until now, all the energy that I see and the things that I see are just energy.

That's what they really, they are. Um, but when I meet her, it changes a little bit. Here's what happens first. You know, when two people start to get serious, one says to the other, so what are your spiritual or religious beliefs? And I'm like, uh, I'm like, you go first.

Karen & Will: wait,

Ray: And I would have went along with anything that she said, but she was smarter than that.

And she's like, turns it back on me. And I said, well, I've been actually trying to figure that out. I really don't know. Honestly, I don't know. experience so many different crazy things that you don't even want to know about. And she's like, no, I really do. And I was like, nah, you really don't. Um, and she says, well, listen, why don't we do this?

I'm going to buy you at my birthday was coming up. She was like, I'm going to get you a spiritual clearing for your birthday. And [00:39:00] I was like, so what the hell is that? And like a massage, I'm going to get a massage because absolutely not. And I got a massage.

Karen & Will: soulmates, not spiritual clearings. What the heck? Right. That's

Ray: Well, well, I didn't, I didn't know enough to call her that at the time,

Karen & Will: Oh,

Ray: yeah. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm still ignorant. And, um, so I said, we're going to have cake, right? And she's like, yeah, we'll have cake, we'll have cake. And so I was like, so what do I got to do? And she says, absolutely nothing. The lady's going to call you.

You're going to be at work probably. And she's going to call you and tell you, she's going to start as I don't even have to be there. She's like, no distant, distant clear. All right. So she calls me. She's very nice. I don't believe a word of what she's saying. She's telling me she's going to do something to my chakras.

I'm like, chakras, my wife. No, you're going to touch my chakras.

Karen & Will: Are you messing with my chakras? Oh my god.

Ray: know I was very polite. I was very nice, but I didn't believe a word that she was saying. And I was like, okay, that's great. She goes, if you feel a little off afterwards, you know, just call me [00:40:00] back and let me know. And I was like, all right, that's cool.

So she calls me back when she's done. She's like, all right, so I completed everything. And here's what I saw. You had this year, this year, this year, this year, this year, this year. That's like, wow, that's a lot of this. And she's like, yeah, it kind of is, but I broke it up for you and this is what's going to happen.

So you really might feel off. Don't make any life changing decisions and don't have any, uh, important appointments lately. And I said, okay. Um, and I respected what she said. And then it was maybe within an hour later, I got up from my desk and I went to go to the bathroom and, um, I was like stumbling. I was like, so wobbly.

I felt like I had a drink and I was sober over a decade at that point. And I was just, my equilibrium was way off. And I started to feel the pressure like it was when I moved into that apartment again. And this did not feel good at all. I started to get a headache. I went home. [00:41:00] I called it a day. It was a Friday. And. Later that evening, I'm laying down and I'm kind of just flipping through channels and I see for the first time an energy being in the shape of a man. Now, I'm not seeing this with my eyes, okay? This is in here, this is my third eye. It's like a movie screen that opens up in my head and there's a man on the screen and he's talking to me.

And he says, he's a big husky guy, he's got a beard and mustache, thick black hair and he says, I F'd up. I made a mistake. You can help her. I cannot. And I'm just like, what was that?

Karen & Will: What?

Ray: And I just wait a little while. And then there he was again. And he said the same thing. And I was trying to watch the show. Right. But every time I would kind of just start to nod off, he would come back. And so I was like, this is really [00:42:00] not cool. I don't know what's happening to me.

So I finally fall asleep. I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't know what that was last night. That was really weird. But it starts up and Right at breakfast. I mean, it just hit. There he is again. The same eight second video loop. I'm watching it over and over again. And Saturday, it's feels like it's every hour on the hour. Now going into Sunday, it feels like it's every five minutes. I can't drive. I can't have a conversation. I'm shaking. I'm trembling. I can't take it anymore. And I was in a store and I was paying for my stuff and the lady behind the counter goes, Sir, are you okay? And I said, no, I don't know what I did. I really don't.

But she said, are you okay? And I said, no, I'm not okay. I'm not okay at all. And I took my car and I went back to the car and I put my head down and I said, I worked all these years. I, I, I, I beat drugs. I beat alcohol. I, I became something of myself. [00:43:00] I raised two kids and now I'm out of my mind. I'm insane.

Really? This is what you're going to do to me now? And I was, I, I, I called my brother. I made sure he had my will. My DNR do not resuscitate me again. I'm going to the light. If that was real, I'm going right in there. Do not pass. Go. Don't ever revive me. So I'm, I'm making provisions for my kids. They have to be taken care of.

And I have that's, this is the way I'm thinking right now. Now I got to tell this woman that I just met, just found that I'm, I'm, I see people that aren't there. And if this isn't all enough of a crazy story, she is a doctor of psychology and a doctor of neuropsychology by trade.

Karen & Will: So she could put you in the bin.

Ray: Yeah, but this is the way I see it. She's probably gonna say, call this doctor over here and never call me again.[00:44:00]

Karen & Will: Right. Right.

Ray: But that's not what happens. Remember, this is the woman that bought me a spiritual clearing. So it doesn't go like that at all. But I'm petrified to tell her and, but I have to tell her. And so I do tell her, and she says, go through that again with me.

And I said, well, I get the vibration, I get the shakes, I get the chills, and then movie screen opens up and the guy, big husky guy, you know the hair, blah, blah, blah. I effed up. I made a mistake. You can help her. I can. She says, that sounds like my dad. And I said, honey, your dad's dead. And now I'm thinking she's crazy and I'm getting the health check.

Please.

Karen & Will: Right.

Ray: You're a doctor, huh?

Karen & Will: Well, they do call them quacks. Oh.

Ray: So, you know, uh, she's like, no, really, she goes, and I said, no, really, that doesn't sound like your dad. Because I said, beard mustache, thick black hair, Husky guy. And I saw the picture that you have in the [00:45:00] house and it does not look like him at all. And she goes, that's an old picture. I said, she goes, she goes, first of all, I've seen many mediums and she's going through her phone.

And I was like, what the hell is a medium? And there she goes through the phone and she gets to a photo and she shows this to me and I was like, holy shit, you know, that guy

Karen & Will: Hmm.

Ray: and my jaw just dropped. And I said that, that not only was it him, it was the shirt he had on. It was everything.

Karen & Will: Wow. That's, I'm talking about some serious validation. That's incredible.

Ray: And I didn't know whether. Uh, to throw up or, or, or be relieved. I didn't know what it was. She goes, relax. I've been to a lot of mediums. They all describe him in the same way. He's very, very forceful in nature. Even on the other side, he comes through. He's always right there, almost dead center. They're not allowed to be dead centered, but almost dead center.

And he's, he's very, he wants to get a message and you gave me the message. And I was like, okay, that sounds great. Um, [00:46:00] so what do I do with this thing? She goes, relax. There's a medium that's coming to town, uh, like Santa Claus coming to town, medium coming to town. She's going to be here for a couple of weeks and you can meet with her and you guys can talk shop and you can tell her what you feel and how you feel.

And you could decide for yourself if, if this is real or if you're crazy, right? Simple. Always level headed. I was like, damn, I don't even deserve her,

Karen & Will: She's so the one. So the one.

Ray: So the one, I mean, how, how could she not be? So she takes me to the medium thing and I'm like, hi, I'm Ray and the medium goes, Oh, you're that Ray and I said, I, uh, yeah, sit down. Right. I was like, okay. And I'm like, you know, here I am. I'm like, I'm, I'm like petrified. The guy that was in shootouts. And I'm like, okay. And, and [00:47:00] she's, she's like, tell me what's happening. Right. And I said, well, I'm losing my mind. I see people and they're not really there.

And they even speak to me. She goes, ha, ha, ha. Me too. And um, and I said, I said, I said, yeah, but there's, she goes, take me through the process. And I said, the chills and then the lines across the room and then the swirlies in his corner of my eye. And then the movie screen opens up and she goes, stop. I said, what?

She goes, that's exactly the way I see it. She goes, that's exactly the way we all see it. And I was like, who's we, who's we, who's we all? mediums. You're a medium. And I was like, so I'm not crazy. She goes, no. So what do I do now? You know, like all of a sudden it was a big relief, but then at the same time, it wasn't because at least insanity, I understood.

I know how it ends. I know how it goes. I don't know anything about mediumship, so [00:48:00] there's a whole unknown that I'm more afraid of, but she takes me under her wing, teaches me everything. I mean, this is literally, like, the first time I even hear the word medium. You gotta understand, like, I have no background of this stuff at all.

So, um, She really, the first year I, she saved my life and she, she confided in me. She's like, listen, when I was young, my parents had me put away for being schizophrenic and they kept me in that hospital for many years and, and so I don't ever want to see that happen to anybody else. And now I don't want to see that happen to anybody else.

And if I work with somebody and they tell me they see things, I sit with them and we go through the process of what they say. Um, I do that all the time. Because like I said that that's where I was headed. That's where I was headed. And knowing how I was, I would have just checked myself in. So, um, It was, um, right from there.

[00:49:00] Um, it wasn't until a year later I met my second mentor. Um, and it was my next birthday. Always on my birthday. My wife says, where do you want to go for your birthday? And I said, you want to go to a beach? You want to go to this? You want to go? I said, absolutely not. I want an outhouse and I want a tent and I want to be in the middle of the woods and I want to hug trees. Who the hell are you? I don't know. I don't know, but I really need to hug some trees, you know, I, uh, tree, that was like a butt end of my jokes all the time, you know, being one with the universe and hugging trees and all this. And now I'm that guy. I'm literally shoes off hugging trees.

Karen & Will: Careful for the

Ray: come near this tree.

I will kill you. So, and we meditated the whole weekend. And what happened was, is she, my wife takes out a drawing. It was an illustration that was done for her of her dad. And she shows it to me and I said, that's your dad. And she goes, yeah, I know. And I said, but what you don't know is that's the way I see him, like the [00:50:00] shirt with the buttons and that, you know, this and that.

And she goes, yeah, we used to make fun of him. That was his Christmas shirt. And I was like, what does that mean? He was a construction worker. He built houses for a living. So he was always work, book, boot and jeans guy. He never had a nice shirt on. He would take one out for Christmas and this would be the shirt.

And I said, well, who drew that? And she goes a medium. And I was like, Whoa, Oh, wow. I said, well, that's the way I see them. So I need to know who that medium is and I need to meet that person. And so we looked them up online and it said right on his website, big letters. Now taking applications for a two year mentorship program with Medium Joe. Your application must be submitted by February 15th. my birthday, February

Karen & Will: No way. Oh my

Karen: gosh. You had no choice. Right.

Ray: goes, you gonna do it? I said, heh heh, funny. So I'm filling out the application right [00:51:00] then and there and I'm sending it in because I don't want to miss the date. And the first application, you know, it's like 10 questions. It's nothing. Then they send you like a booklet that's like this. And you, they're all essay questions.

And how does this happen? How does that happen? What do you see first? What do you see second? What do you hear? What do you do? What happens here? What happens? And it's like, Just going through everything. But so you can't prove you're real, you're not getting it. And let me tell you how difficult it was. So even I sent that back, then I had an interview.

Then they sent me another questionnaire. I had another interview and then I heard nothing. So I was like, I didn't get this. I'm not, I'm not real. I'm all the way back to I'm not real. I'm back. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I made this all up in my head, you know, and, and I'm all the way back to square one, but I wanted to make that phone call and just confirm it.

So I called his assistant and I said, I just wanted to confirm, you know, that I didn't get the mentorship program and that she cut me off. She goes, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. We didn't make [00:52:00] any decisions yet. And I was like, Oh, really? She goes, yeah, this year there were hundreds of applications. And I was like, wow, hundreds of applications.

There's only the second time he did it. And he, and, and this, uh, mentorship costs several thousand dollars, because it's a real mentorship, like you can call him day or night, seven days a week, whatever you need, he's there. And so it's a, you do the math, thousands of dollars times, hundreds of people, windfall, windfall, windfall, right? This is the integrity of this man. If he could not prove to himself that you were legit, you could not get in. I did get in and I was number 11 of 11. I don't think I could have done that. That's how, when I knew that man, I'm never leaving a guy like that. You're my daddy. What do you want to be or [00:53:00] not? And it was a two year program.

I think I'm in my fifth year and I'm just the guy who never leaves, never graduates. I don't want to graduate. I'm just here because he's here and that's it. And, uh, yeah. So, um, but he taught us, he taught me everything. I mean, he not just mediumship, like spirituality and how to manifest and how manifesting works.

And then, you know, He started to really trigger my, my curiosity. So I went back to college for metaphysics. I got a master's, a bachelor's and a master's. I'm an ordained minister with the IMM international metaphysical ministry. And then, um, I'm doing my doctorate right now and I've read every book under the sun.

From Eckhart Tolle, Joe Dispenza to, um, Deepak and then on the other side, I love science. So I read Einstein. I read Tesla. I read Niels Bohr. You name a physicist. I've read him and I've studied his work. And then what [00:54:00] happened was, is I started taking these spiritual concepts and I matched them to the physical laws of reality and I started to put it together.

That is the entire second book. It's some of the first book, but it's mostly the second book. You've got a, uh, a, um, a spiritual concept and then I explained to you how it works from a physical perspective because I was the biggest skeptic. I was a 40 something year skeptic, right? I've been seeing this since I was five.

Karen & Will: you are speaking my language right now. So exactly.

Ray: So you'll buy my book,

Karen & Will: I do. I'm actually, I'm, I'm, wait, hang on. I'm getting my phone. I'm ordering it right now.

Ray: it

Karen & Will: since, since we're on a topic, let's, let's dive into it, uh, because we're, we, we've gone way longer than I thought we would, but this is such, it's such a fascinating conversation.

Give us the names of your books, because we're going to add those links to our, uh, show notes, but I want to make sure I've got them right.

Ray: Okay. So the first book is the atheist and the afterlife. And that is [00:55:00] the story of me going from atheism to being a believer. It basically ends before I meet my second mentor. And when the second book is called, you're still alive now act like it. And

Karen & Will: title. I'm definitely,

Ray: really gets into the concepts of.

There's a lot of stories in there too, but there's also, um, concepts of, um, say like, uh, the Law of Attraction, which is really popular right now, so I break it down, first of all, I tell you how I use the Law of Attraction in my own life, and that story is, you know, pretty crazy to begin with. And then I explained to you how it works physically from a physical perspective.

And then I tell you how to do it on your own. So every chapter will have a story about my crazy life. Then it has the spiritual principle, and then it tells you how to break it down physically. And you can look up all the physical laws that I put in there because I did. And studied them over and [00:56:00] over and over, and it just makes perfect sense.

Karen & Will: definitely, Excuse me. I'm, I'm definitely without a doubt getting your book. Cause that does sound exactly like right up my alley. Um,

Karen: and if you write the way you speak, I think that would just be like a

Ray: Oh, it's way, it's way where get ready for a lot of four letter words. I'm going to warn you in advance. Um, Italian from Jersey. So F you, you know, that's just a regular word. That's not really a thing around here.

Karen & Will: In our household, it's like salt. So we're good. It's good seasoning. All right. That's amazing. Yeah. Uh, you had a question?

Karen: No.

Karen & Will: Okay.

Karen: I'm just listening. Uh, like I, I just, I'm just listening. I'm like, I want to take it all in.

Karen & Will: So then on top of your, your book, you also, you, you right now help people

Ray: I do.

Karen & Will: to, you know, To come to grips with some of the stuff that's happening with them right now, where you help them to find their path spiritually, when someone reaches out to you and says, [00:57:00] Ray, what the heck?

Although a lot more flowery than I just said it, um, take us to the pieces. What do you do? What, how do you help somebody?

Ray: So nothing's cookie cutter because everybody comes from a different place right in their life, but they're all seeking the same thing. They all want to be awake and they all want to see the other side. And I always ask first, I was like, listen, Do you really want to see the other side? Because once you see it, you're not going to be able to unsee it.

And, you know, I asked my two sons, right. To give you a quick example, I asked both my sons. I said, who wants to see it because you're not going to want to go to the bar anymore and have a couple of drinks with your friends, because that's just not going to do it for you. You know, you're just not going to give a crap about, you know, certain things that you do care about right now.

All that stuff. You know, maybe you want to wait until you're like 30. My other son's like, no way. I want it now. And he was like, I'll wait that I'm in college. So everybody that comes in is very, very different as to where they are. And, um, first thing we do is [00:58:00] we set like a baseline and we figure out where they are and then we figure out where they want to be.

And then I take them through the process, but I always am very respectful. I asked them, do you want to know this? Do you want to know that? Because it does change you, right? It's going to literally change the way you react. It's going to change the way you do things. It's going to change the way you think.

you are with other people in a hundred percent. I mean, it's going to be for the better, but not everybody wants everything to be for the better, right. Or they don't see it as being better. Um, because you know, one of the questions I get is how do I keep my drive and my ambition and, uh, trying to acquire my goals.

And at the same time, um, I'm, I'm the spiritual lackadaisical person. And I said, it's very simple. I said, I don't go out and get things. They come to me. And. Once you master that, you don't have to get out of bed. I don't care if I'm in my kitchen or if I'm on a beach, it's the same [00:59:00] thing to me. There's no, there's no difference.

Karen & Will: No, I'm not gonna overnight the book. You and I are working together. You and I are working together because you are, you are just We

Karen: need to talk. We are

Karen & Will: Oh my God. Like, where do you, where have you been my entire career? I'm just

Ray: get that a lot, actually.

Karen & Will: I bet you do.

Yeah. Uh, no, we're definitely going to talk because this, this sounds amazing. So, uh, we've gone way, way over time, which is not, um, unusual, but, but this has been unusual in as much that we have just been like little kids listening to you talk because your story is incredible and the way you tell it is so wonderful.

So if someone wanted to reach out to you and work with you one on one Uh, well, we're going to add your, your, your books to our show notes so people can access them. But so I wanted to reach out to you. What's the best way to get ahold of you?

Ray: Ray Catania. com and, uh, or limitless publications. com either one. Ray Catania is a new site. I [01:00:00] just built it out. It's really, uh, it's coming along really nicely. It's going to have courses classes. Of course you can, uh, access me for coaching. You'll find out information. Um, on what's coming up, um, and new books and new stuff and everything's going to be rolled out through there.

So I'm pretty excited about it. Ray Catania dot com. Thank you for allowing me to say that, by the way,

Karen & Will: Absolutely. Of course. Definitely. Um, and if I, if you can get me to stay in bed and get sit to come to me, we are in

Ray: It's kind of like every man's dream when you think about it.

Karen & Will: I want a beer. Wow. That's me. Perfect. The Jedi mind trick. Here I come. No, I'm just teasing, obviously. But, uh, Ray, you are amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show, talking to us about your experience and, uh, about the spiritual awakening stuff, because that was, we started out, uh, strong and just never looked back.

back. So I really appreciate you. We're going to add all those links to our show notes. Just go to skepticmetaphysician. com. You can access those links [01:01:00] directly from there and it'll be a one click contact with Ray. So once again, Ray, such a pleasure. Thank

Ray: Thank you. Pleasure was mine. Thank you.

Will: And a huge thank you to you. If you know someone who would benefit from hearing the message we're sharing on the show, do them and us a favor and share the show with them.

It will help get the word out about us and it might just change someone's life for the better. Well, that's all for now, but we'll see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Metaphysician. Until then, take care.