I Went to Hell and Back - Integrating Spiritually Transformative Experiences

Will: [00:00:00] Karen. Yes. We've had hundreds of conversations about hundreds of different topics while doing this show. We have. Sadly. Just because someone's consciousness might be expanding doesn't necessarily mean you can safely integrate your new awareness into your daily lived experience. I mean, you may not even know what I was talking about just now, right?

Nope. We've heard a lot about how it can be difficult and challenging to handle when everything you thought you knew about yourself and your reality gets turned upside down. Well, then how do you do it? And can people do it? Hold on a successful physical life that others might not understand or even accept some of the changes that you're undergoing.

That's tricky. It is tricky. Well, if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that this is a reality that you find yourself struggling with and that this is the episode you may have been waiting for all along, because today. We're talking with an expert in helping people transition from the 3d to 5d and way beyond need help getting a grip and stay [00:01:00] tuned because by the end of this show, you're going to know just what you need to do to handle and integrate your spiritual transformation into your career or into your current life.

The skeptic revisitions starts now. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another thought provoking episode of the Skeptic Metaphysicians Podcast. I'm Will. And I'm Karen. And today we have the honor of hosting a distinguished guest, a luminary at the intersection of skepticism [00:02:00] and metaphysical exploration. She's a veteran in the realm of spiritual transformations.

And integration having served as the past president of the American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences. Say that five times fast. Now, her extensive background includes over a decade of dedicated work, supporting and guiding individuals who have undergone profound spiritual experiences, a journey that commenced in her own childhood and has Traversed with her into her adult life with a wealth of experience spanning decades.

Our guest expertise is deeply rooted in not just a theoretical, but the lived reality of spiritual encounters. Enriching her perspective with firsthand knowledge and empathetic understanding. I'm not going to say anything else because I don't know if I'm making any sense at all. I'm just going to welcome to the show.

Elizabeth Sabat, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Elizabeth: Thanks so much for having me, Will and Karen. I'm grateful to be here.

Will: We are thrilled to have you. this is a [00:03:00] topic that is near and dear to my heart for lots of different reasons. But let's start at the very beginning when we are talking about spiritual transformative experiences. that covers a wide gamut. So what can we talk about in that sense?

Elizabeth: Well, I like to call them, so as you said, there's a wide variety of experiences, but typically spiritually transformative experiences or STEs for short, are a type of non linear, non ordinary experience of that. taKes you out of your enculturated worldview and gives you an opportunity to experience life differently.

And so, uh, there's a list of about 126 different types brown and researchers, brown and white identified approximately 126 types of experiences in their research.

Will: Good God. [00:04:00] Wow. Now, is, is that something like when I was in college, um, friends of mine got STEs all the time and had to go get a pill to get it

Elizabeth: yeah,

Will: Is this

Karen: something? It has begun. No, not the same thing.

Elizabeth: Some people take pills for this, but yeah, I know.

Will: 126, are we talking about like a tap on the shoulder? Are we talking about your life falling apart?

I mean, I assumed it

Karen: was, I would think

Elizabeth: all. Yeah, potentially all of the above. there's so many different types. Anything from. a mystical experience where you experience, after death communication, maybe your dead grandmother sits on your bed in the middle of the night and scares you, uh, wants to talk to you, right? Um, an out of body experience, a near death experience. a crisis of psychic opening, which could be clear audience, clear, sentience, clear tangency. I can never say that word where you [00:05:00] pick up an item and you just know something about the person that had that owned that object. But any exceptional, there could be called exceptional human experiences, numinous experiences, luminous experiences, non ordinary, non.

Linear states of consciousness experiences, it could be a unit of state of consciousness experience where you're just walking down the street, minding your own business and bam, all of the sudden

Will: we are all

Elizabeth: oneness with everything around you.

Will: That's that's what happened, Karen. That's what so, yes, yes. I'm so glad that you brought this up because I've got I've had flashes of that all of a sudden, like, oh my God. It's been glorious, fantastic. Like I have not wanted to come out of it, but inevitably go to sleep next morning. I'm like.

What did I say? It's like a blackout after you're drinking all night long, right? It's different. and I'm sure a lot of people have run into those that are living in those experiences on [00:06:00] a prolonged basis and they're thinking, what is wrong with this guy? Right? So this is kind of what we're talking about now.

How does

Elizabeth: they can, they can happen, uh, spontaneously in a very split second, or they can be prolonged. They can last minutes or hours. Or days, or weeks, or months.

Karen: Are these things that you can kind of help to happen? Like if you want to have those experiences, there's something you can do? Are there some steps to take? Yeah, she said there was a pill for it. I think that was after when it happens unexpectedly.

Will: Yeah

Elizabeth: these experiences happen in all types of ways. They can happen because of illness. Women can have them during childbirth. Childbirth can bring these on an accident. They can come in dreams. They can come through meditation practices, yoga practices. They can come through, for absolutely no reason, apparently no reason at all. Trauma.

Will: So then sometimes, things like that can be [00:07:00] wonderful and it has been wonderful for a lot of folks, but there are some people and we've talked to a few of them that they're, they thought they were going crazy or their lives were ending. and so you actually are an expert at helping people get a grip for lack of a better word, right?

So how can someone integrate this sudden awareness expansion into their daily life?

Elizabeth: it depends on where they're at, when they come looking for help. sometimes people go to mental health professionals who are not trained in identifying or differential diagnosis between psychosis and spiritual emergency and emergency, which there are DSM codes for spiritual and religious problems.

And, there is. research literature around this, but it's not a requirement, for mental health professionals to get licensed. So they don't get trained in it as of yet.

Will: Huh. Wait,

Elizabeth: university, Rutgers University, which is in the process of integrating this information into their educational process.[00:08:00]

Will: wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying you saying that this is a clinically accepted

Elizabeth: Yeah, no. So in some, in some clinical settings with people who've been trained by it, who want to be trained and, that's what assist did the American center for the integration of spiritually transformative experiences. So we used to host academic conferences to train mental health professionals and other helping professionals and to get training on differential diagnosis.

they're no longer doing those trainings, but, we're looking for other places to I'm looking for other places to host that training so I can organize more academic conferences because it's not happening at the collegiate level. They're not getting trained.

Will: but, but you said that there were codes for that.

Elizabeth: There's a diagnostic code in the DSM. Yes.

Will: So that's, that's That's kind of eye opening, uh, when you, I mean, to have a code, a diagnosis [00:09:00] code, you have to accept that there is something to code for.

Elizabeth: Yeah, and right now it's, uh, the, the problem is, Yale University has just finished, uh, they've done two studies on hearing voices and how, why is it, how is it possible that some people hear voices and they can manage Fine. And they go on their daily life and like, Oh yeah, I heard from my grandmother.

Oh yeah. An angel told me this or Jesus or the Holy spirit or whoever. Okay. I'm going to go do that now. And they go on and they do it and they're fine. And why do other people hear voices that cause problems that they can't handle and they can't make it stop.

Karen: when Harvard is looking at this, are they thinking, I think it's Yale, I'm sorry, Yale. I'm sorry. When Yale is looking at this, are they looking in the direction of like these are they're communicating with other people or are they just. Considering all of these a form of psychosis that

Elizabeth: That was one of my little problems with the, first, research is because it's about hallucinations and

Karen: Oh. [00:10:00] Mm

Elizabeth: And when I talked to the researchers about that, um, as an advisory person, uh, you know, on their advisory committee, I was like, my people are not going to be happy participating in this study.

they were looking for research participants because you're using the term hallucination and they don't believe that they're hallucinating. And they said, yeah, we understand that. And we have to do the basic research 1st. so that and using the academic language that the current academic standard is going to accept.

And when I've read the 1st, when I read the 1st research article, I still had. bit of a problem with it. as somebody who has heard voices myself, and at the same time, it's foundational and it's really important to help people stay safe because. As we know, there are people who hear voices and then go out and kill people,

Karen: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Elizabeth: or they're tormented by these voices and they can't make them [00:11:00] stop.

And they're not just talking to somebody, a loved one or relative on the other side that they can hear, in a form of after death communication and it's comforting and nurturing.

So they do have to make sure that they are the medical community and the mental health community is causing no harm. They are responsible if they put somebody on the street who could potentially cause harm.

So they have to start with this baseline to know the difference and the premise. of the research is what can we learn from people who hear voices and are fine with it and who can control it voluntarily that we can use to support people who cannot and so the foundation of the research I thought was very respectful and I think it will go a long way to further research as to, is it this kind of voice or is it that kind of voice?

And it's not looking at where is this voice coming from or, They're not attempting to validate where the voice is coming from in that particular [00:12:00] research. Anyway, mainstreaming this type of, understanding about spiritually transformative experiences is very, very difficult. there's an organization called the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium, which is looking.

actively looking for funding and fundraising for research and for emergent phenomenon and to understand it and to build towards the body of research that would contribute to differential diagnosis and proper care and integration for people who've had these experiences and are asking that question.

am I crazy? Am I okay? Is this What am I supposed to do with that?

Will: Mm And what was this organization again?

Elizabeth: The EPRC, the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium. Uh, it's theeprc. org.

Will: Yep. That's what I was looking for.

Elizabeth: This is an organization of global researchers. that are coming together to share their work and to make [00:13:00] connections and to take a look at what's currently happening in the research world concerning emergent phenomenology. It's multidisciplinary.

There are researchers and practitioners and even people like myself that show up to the meetings, that are from all different disciplines that are contributing to some body of knowledge. there are very limited places where somebody who's asking these questions can go assist has a, online forum, that's very well moderated and so they could go to assist.

org and click on the tab to be led into the, you know, the forum and that is a peer led forum, but they're very well trained peers that are moderating that.

so right now the majority of the help out there is peer led in groups that you can find an abundance of on Facebook.

Will: Well, then let's, get back to the, experiences themselves. I'm sure there are some that are much more difficult to integrate than others. Do you have a, an idea of what someone should be looking out for?[00:14:00]

Elizabeth: It could be any experience that creates an ontological shock. if I have a specific worldview that everything I see is real and solid, and all of a sudden I have an experience of somebody walking through the room coming to see me. Right? Like if somebody on the other side, or if I think that's demonic, if I, my religious upbringing has taught me that that contact is bad and here it is with me, that could be very difficult for others.

It wouldn't be very difficult at all.

Will: Right. Right.

Elizabeth: dark spiritual experiences are the most, uh, difficult for people to integrate. And then the ones that are worldview or God's view. Are the most difficult to integrate because not all experiences are all sunlight and butterflies and unified at the heart center.

Will: Yeah. Yes, they [00:15:00] are. I'm going to keep telling myself that until it happens. We create our own reality, damn it.

Elizabeth: Yeah,

Will: All right.

Elizabeth: that's what I thought too, until I went to hell.

Will: Oh, wow. Okay. So did you have an NDE or is it just like you just decided to take a trip?

Elizabeth: to support people in transitioning from this life to the next So sometimes I get called out of my body to do that. It's almost like there's a signal and my soul leaves the body. so weird alert, really? Wow. Crazy woo woo alert. So people may not believe this.

So just saying, it's not what I really talk about, but you saying that was like, yep, I know. I know that one. So I'm in the hospital, I'm in my living room. Um, and then I can't. All of a sudden, I'm just, completely inundated with fatigue. I can't even sit up, had to lay down and had no presence of [00:16:00] tiredness prior to that.

And then the next thing I know, I'm out of my body and being pulled out of my body. And I'm in a hospital room up in the corner of the room. And somebody is dying. A man was dying in an ICU by himself. And he was very angry and bitter, and he was saying to himself, man, nobody's ever given me a break.

Life sucked. Now I'm dying here by myself and I have to go to hell. And this is, you know, such an unfair life. I don't even know why God made me know what was the purpose of my life. And so the next thing I know. I'm with him as where, I called it the upper reaches of hell, which I didn't even believe in.

Personally, I'm a student of A Course in Miracles and a student of a different kind of Jesus than what I was taught as a child. And and so this, first of all, was quite. I mean, I've worked with people on the other side [00:17:00] and assisted them in transitioning from the earth plane before. This was quite different.

so I'm standing at this place, which looked pretty hell like that I didn't even believe in.

Will: you could almost say it was hellish.

Elizabeth: It was hellish. And I couldn't, I couldn't move. I was terrified. I didn't even want to turn my head. I just looked at my periphery.

Will: Okay, so it was, was it the flames in Inferno and Pitchfork kind of thing, kind of

Elizabeth: was, it was, um, I actually had an experience of eternal condemnation and eternal, hopelessness. And, you know, it's not like the movies where they were like, please, it wasn't that level. It was the level where they couldn't even lift their arms. They couldn't even lift their arms to say, help me. They didn't even have the belief in them that they could ask for help.

They were no longer even seeking help because they didn't [00:18:00] believe it was available. I'm freaking out. All I can see is an uncountable number of. soul standing before me in this experience of absolutely, eternal hopelessness. It was, it. It was so bad. You know how people I've listened to countless NDE experiences where People talk about how good it is

and they can't explain it This Was,

the opposite. So I started and I'm screaming

at them like, no, no, no. Y'all have been lied to. This

isn't real. This is an illusion. you know, you need to

wake

1. you don't have to be here. Like you've been lied
2. And. I could being pulled down like

quicksand and I couldn't get out. And so I was like, Oh geez. God,

I, I, I know you don't want me here, but I can't get out by

myself. I need your help. And like that, [00:19:00] back up out of

it and back into my

body in the living

room. And function for three days. took three days for me to get my body

to stop shaking and to try and figure out what happened.

And I went to my favorite coffee shop for three days all day from open to close reading my course of miracles book, trying to

figure out what the heck happened.

Will: Right. Because nothing spells relief like caffeination.

Elizabeth: You're funny. That's

right. That's right. And, and the local bookstore run by

your local Buddhist, right?

Karen: Right.

Elizabeth: coffee shop run

Karen: shop.

Elizabeth: your local Buddhist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you

know, that took three days

and to integrate, but only three days because the coffee shop owner.

came by and it was a long story. I won't get into, but she said,

Oh, you went to

hell. How sweet, you [00:20:00] know, when the, what the Buddha says about hell, if you

find yourself in hell, you're there to

mine jewels. And I, and I was, I looked at her like she was crazy. But

It gave me

that new perspective to look at. You know, instead of being stuck in,

why did this happen to me? am I crazy? Oh, here's a different perspective. I can take this

in

and look at it differently. And what did I what

could I have learned from that?

And I did, I learned a lot. But it was very difficult.

So for what other people, would it have taken three days or

would have taken longer? No one knows the answer to that question. It's based on your capacity,

the integration process

is based on your capacity to take in new information and give yourself permission to explore it It's when we reject

this new information that it takes longer.

To integrate.

Karen: Was this your first kind of opportunity, or was I guess experience with helping

transition someone.

Elizabeth: No,

Karen: Okay. Because I was [00:21:00] just thinking, you know, Will was saying we create our own reality and, and,

you know, you can believe in hell or not believe in hell. And I'm just, I was just thinking, what if this man's

hell was so strong that he kind of sucked you into his reality?

Like, would that be a possibility?

Elizabeth: absolutely. I mean, when you work with people on the other side, you have to go into their reality to rescue

them out of it.

Karen: right.

So then if that's the case, then maybe. There doesn't

have to be a hell.

Will: Well, I kind of, I kind of see it like,

uh, what dreams may come, right? The movie where we all

create our own afterlife. So this person obviously believed

in hell and this was the

hell he believed in,

or he thought

He was going to go to.

Cause Elizabeth, you

said, um, right. As you were

mentioning him that he was saying, I don't know why

God made me now. I've got to go to hell. That kind of thing.

He already had that in mind in his

mind.

Elizabeth: It was

Will: as he was passing over, right. So as passing over, you experienced his version of the

afterlife,

So that's, just another example of how important it is

to solidify what your beliefs are and to not, take it. [00:22:00] Flippantly,

but, think positive thoughts, right?

Because who wants to go to hell, for God's sakes?

Elizabeth: Yeah. Nobody. And, do you know Dr. Nathan Castle. He is a Catholic priest who also

helps people transition, lost souls transition. And I was visiting with

him and we both agree that the most important thing anybody in a

helping profession can do, or anybody who loves anybody

is to help them

recognize How beautiful they are and

how lovable they

are and how worthy they are. And that any mistakes that we

make are mistakes from a lack of understanding

or experience and not

worth being condemned for. There is

nothing more

important,

I think,

personally, than helping

people receive as much love as possible before they leave this earth, because that will ensure.

A safe transition from this [00:23:00] life to the

next.

Will: So then, I know that we had

talked earlier about, you,

go through these experiences And,

you already having a hard time

handling it But then you throw in the fact

that we

have to we have to live we have to work we have to

raise a

family we have

to

keep going with our lives and Everybody knows

it's getting better.

But when someone said to you sometimes in the past, hey, I'm hearing voices You

immediately get put in a straitjacket. So how does someone who's having these experiences?

How do you manage to integrate? That into your daily life without seeming like you're a loon

Elizabeth: Well, the first thing is to find

someone who understands you, specifically with

Hearing Voices. There's an organization called the Hearing Voices Network, who has a

very strong support system of people who do hear voices. And, It's very important when you share

your

experiences that You [00:24:00] know who to share them

with if you already know that your experience is going to

maybe

Will: freak someone

Elizabeth: freak some, concern, make them concerned that you're

talking to the devil or

going to hell, you might want to talk to somebody

else first that has some experience.

with

them.

And, uh, it depends. So in a

light filled

spiritual experience.

with a light

filled spiritual experience, so many times

people are filled so full of love and light, they want to share it with everybody, and they're so enthusiastic

about it, that they're sharing it

with people who can't relate, and then you experience

that, letdown, or that disappointment, or you feel

ostracized. But what I suggest to people is That first, they have compassion for the people who have not had the experience,

instead of expecting to go to A well full of water and get a drink. But if that person hasn't had your experience and they can't meet you there And if it's outside of their [00:25:00] worldview, you can expect resistance.

So first to find

people who can understand that you've had some form of nonlinear, non ordinary experience go by so many different names. Some people don't even like the word spiritual anymore, right? So they could be a transcendent experience or a non ordinary

experience. And. There are therapists now that are trained or, who work with non ordinary states and coaches and spiritual guidance directors.

So looking for a spiritual guidance director in your specific faith tradition to help you work things out could be a safer person to talk to than perhaps a therapist to begin with. That hasn't been trained.

Karen: Yeah. Cause they might try to

help fix you. So you're not hearing the voices, but what if they're important voices that you need to hear? right.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And working with these, you know, is the voice

coming from you, from your

psyche in your subconscious or your higher

[00:26:00] self? Is it coming from the light or is it?

coming with a flavor of darkness

towards it? And that even flavor of darkness could be within yourself as well. Teasing out. Is it light? Is it dark? Is it heavy? Is it light?

What is the attention?

Will: And it's important to talk about these kinds of things with the right folks,

because a lot of times, if you do have These experiences and you start opening up bottom and get negative feedback that then

tends to get you to close up even more for

example, we all know that evolving spiritually this reality is, is what we're all trying to achieve in one way

or another, everyone in this space and in a new age or new thought space or

whatever we're talking about here, everything we've heard about is it.

That this is a positive step forward. This is the next evolution of mankind

is into this in this direction. So if we are doing That

and all of a sudden

we take a little baby step into this world and we get slapped

back, that [00:27:00] might shut down any future experiences that would then prevent you from moving where you need to

1. So it's

really important to, to, to really do this discerningly so

that, so that you don't close yourself off because it, it

it, Like we talked many times, you're not going

crazy.

This is perfectly natural and normal stuff. It's just not, not, not everybody is at the level at which

you are.

And there's

no need to convince anyone of anything because you're not going to be able to

anyway.

Elizabeth: That's right. You can't convince somebody who hasn't had the experience and it is natural and normal for an evolving

consciousness to

start losing touch with paradigm physics and to

be experiencing something Beyond the ordinary what we would call the ordinary in the 3d And so one of the questions people ask is why is

this happening?

Why me? And if it wasn't

childbirth or a trauma or

a

near death experience, and [00:28:00] even those things, I say because your soul is ripe.

Your soul

is ready. to be expanded beyond your enculturated

identity and the benefit, even though it's very challenging and can be

scary, and you can lose relationships and people do lose many

relationships

because of it. It's a natural, normal

part of your

consciousness expanding and all sorts of things are going

to happen. Some very challenging things where you may

have karma arise

different, which is just more

learning. And in the purification

process of having our enculturated identity

purified, that means we're also purifying our concepts about unworthiness and sin and, disempowerment in those things are very challenging to, to deal with.

Will: There's So many different directions that we can go,

but I definitely, it's one of the things

that.

when doing

research on you before we came on the

show

One of the things that,[00:29:00]

caught my attention

was, your thoughts on plant medicine. Because there's, there's a, there's a big

question mark. Some

people believe that plant medicine is,

actually helps with, expanding your consciousness and taking the

necessary evolutionary step and things like that.

But then there's other

factions that talk about plant medicine being a crutch.

That maybe it's not exactly what people

are. saying that it is. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So just like anything else, psychedelics can become a crutch. Meditation

become all spiritual

practice can become

a crutch. We call that spiritual bypassing. Okay.

That means when

we are ignoring the

attending to the normal needs of human

life. Or spiritualizing something to not look at it, to not deal with it, I just want to say that. So anything can become a

crutch. Um, there's a [00:30:00] big debate. Should you engage in psychedelics

to expand your consciousness

and to advance spiritually. Will

it help you

if it doesn't break

your

consciousness first? Right?

Will: Right?

That's what I'm afraid of.

Elizabeth: well, if you have good

integration

support and you have a really good, Trip sitter, uh, or someone who's been trained in

shamanism that knows

what

they're doing and knows how

to

hold space for it to not allow anything else in the space to attach to

you

and knows if there's something rising up within you, how to allow that

space and support it while it's arising,

and proper post session, you know, post integration sessions.

then

it's the risk of.

of, being so broken that you can't be put back together again. It's greatly reduced,

psychedelics are here. They're back. And I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to see it [00:31:00]

coming. You know, Instead of.

being a something that, the old, I'm saying stoners in quotation marks, very lovingly and respectfully.

Okay. Um, that it's being taken out of the basement or the backyard or whatever, and being brought into a cultural

space where we can look at the benefit of it and where the experience itself can be supported. And, That's the wonderful benefit and the healing, the amazing healing of the mind and the, and the spirit that happens with proper ceremony, it's absolutely incredible.

The suffering that can be eradicated

Will: Yeah.

Elizabeth: is amazing.

Will: not to throw stones at it at all. I mean, there, there are

lots of

research that, that are being done now that are finding, uh, it's actually, they're, they're continuing now the research after a

big gap.

Um, now they're, they're finding that a single session of

MDMA, for example, or psilocybin

will help cure PTSD.

It's not even

[00:32:00] Ease of symptoms, but rather they're finding that a single, single,

session could have

a completely life

changing. effect on someone

who's

suffering. so that's, that's remarkable. The question is, you hear it

back in the

day, right? If you did six drops of acid or

more, you're going, you go insane, right?

So, I assume that that

kind of

thought, but like you said,

anything,

everything moderation, everything

that's abused

is going to become a problem. So, um, it's important to

do it. With a proper facilitator as you say, but you do believe

then that it There is a place for

these psychedelics in a spiritual pursuit.

Is that

right?

Elizabeth: Yes. And so I'm kind of old school in the fact that I think that you have to, what are you, being

devoted to? There has to be devotion, but what are

you, if are you devoted to

truth, beauty, love, love, Creator, are you devoted to these in a way that you're attempting to do your [00:33:00] best

to live from these principles, the

devotion to these

principles first, that has to be there.

but the reality is, is for some

people, they can't get

there without having a strong pattern interrupt. And what is it interrupts a pattern. so somebody

can do nothing but

prayer, development of their personality knows it has to be

spiritual development needs to be needs to be psychological and have the

spiritual uh, devotion component in order to be balanced.

because if you skip the psychological development and

go just total into spiritual, then you're going to have to at some point come back and pick up the psychological development. that you've missed out on. And if you're all intellect and all psychological development with no spirit,

at some point you'll get confronted with that if it's your lifetime for that.

Okay. So [00:34:00] part of the problem is, is that people are doing psychedelics, they're doing meditation, they're doing all sorts of devotional practices without having attended to their trauma

their hatred or their resentment or their guilt or their shame. And then they come to these practices. And they're so blown open and can see that.

And afterwards, because whether it's through a spiritually transformative experience that happens spontaneously or an intentional psychedelic experience is you start becoming a different person and that different person, if you have a lot of that stuff. You know, a lot of hidden guilt and shame. That stuff starts to arise now that your consciousness is expanded a little bit and you're recognizing like, Oh my God, who was I before?

Karen: Hmm.

Elizabeth: Oh my God, I can't believe I did that. I was a horrible person. Now I have to be with that. And that's been the [00:35:00] hardest thing I've had to work with, with people in integrating is. They become awake to their own, behavior that they are now ashamed of and feel guilty for, and they don't know how to forgive themselves.

It becomes less of forgiving others and more of a challenge to

forgive themselves.

Will: Elizabeth,

you and I are going to have a conversation after this

Elizabeth: Okay.

Karen: Well, it's, it's interesting though, because a lot of

people turn to

these practices because they have all of these issues and the trauma is, you know, their childhood or whatever, and

they're

thinking this can help them. But what you're saying is they actually need to

deal with that first.

before coming into these practices?

Elizabeth: It's best.

You'll have a less challenging post integration if you deal with this

first. But we, see, we're just not talking about

this as a

society. We're just, you know, uh, mental health. I'm

58. Mental health was not a social and cultural topic. We didn't talk about our

therapist at the dinner table.

Like, you

know, Oh, I [00:36:00] love my

therapist. No, we didn't do, that. Yeah. And so, this is the problem with people who go on like long Vipassana retreats you know, 10 days, silent meditation retreats is they sometimes go into psychosis during or after. because I talk about the process of strengthening the container of

your consciousness, that the most important thing you can do

before engaging in any spiritual practice is to strengthen the container of your consciousness. So what that means to me is. that you have a practice of paying attention to what's arising in your emotions and in your thoughts and determining how is this thought or this emotion, you know, what information is being presented to me? What is this information informing me of that I need to attend to right now, [00:37:00] as opposed to this emotion

means something bad, you know,

yeah.

Attending to our

shadows.

Will: And we, we should make a definitive distinction about what we're talking about.

There are a faction of those that use this type of thing for an escape, um, or recreation. Right? you drop a tab of acid

cause you want to, you don't want, you don't want to think about the world and you woo, right?

You're having fun or you're,

you're doing mushrooms and let's go howl at the moon, that kind of thing. We're talking about very specific ritualistic reasons for and intentions.

When you are undergoing these, journeys, for lack of a better word.

important to have that. we're not condoning a recreational use of mushrooms, for example, or, or,

anything like that.

This is more about, once you're ready to take

that next step, if you're stuck, this might be able to help you, but do it in the right way.

Elizabeth: it might be if you

are, going to a trip sitter who [00:38:00] has

been trained. And how to hold safe

space and safe ceremony and how to support you in lifting out what is arising out of you should you need support

if the medicine isn't doing itself. Also,

Will: Johnny down the block who

has a bag of shrooms in his pocket does not a good trips that are make.

Elizabeth: no. no. no. I've, I've worked with, uh, young people.

who've done that and whose whole life was blown apart and could no longer fit into their society because, and I won't share their stories here because I don't have permission, who no longer fit in, they could no longer be. And they couldn't go hang out with the guys and drink beer anymore.

They couldn't, you know, just try to have sex with every girl that would get in bed with them. They just couldn't do those things anymore. And so, what I want to say about

this,

is, is that if anybody's listening to

this, it's interested in psychedelics and you have access to the medicine because it is sacred medicine.

[00:39:00] Okay. We have to remember that these plants came, uh, the use of these plants. We came to know about the use of these plants through medicine, men and women of tribal, cultures all over the world. And they are

medicine to be respected and to be used appropriately. in sacred tradition, there's a diet that you have to do for six to 10 days. there's a diet that you have to do for six to 10 days.

And it's a diet that you have to

do for six to 10

Will: Oh, wow.

Elizabeth: And then you must meditate every day, like with ayahuasca, you must meditate every single day for 10 days before you drink the medicine with the shaman. when you meditate with the plant spirit,

you're connecting to the essence of the benefit of that medicine.

And you take your challenge or your trauma or your physical ailment or your relationship problem, whatever that is, you take that to that plant spirit and you say, [00:40:00] please, here is my dilemma.

Please help me. And you're, it's a supplication to the divine nature of that medicine.

Will: Gosh.

There's so much that we could dive into and talk about.

But I definitely wanted

to

talk about the fact

that. on your website, you give classes, you

help folks,

uh, and it's not just you, but you have a, few, facilitators that would help

people integrate these kinds of things into their

life.

someone wanted To get better at,

it.

You would recommend go to your website and reach out to you there?

Elizabeth: To get better at, yes.

Will: yep.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Integrating the experience.

Yes.

I'm actually graduating

a new

group of spiritual integration coaches in December.

Actually

we'll have, uh, five more,

coaches on the roster. So yes, I do have people that can support people and

integration. Whether it's psychedelics or, or

any other experience.

Will: That's [00:41:00] great. So then whether you are looking for help or you want to help others, that

might be a good resource for you.

Elizabeth: Absolutely.

Will: All right. Well, Elizabeth, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for

coming and sharing your expertise with us, uh, sharing space with us. and we're going to add, direct

links to your website and social media on our show notes.

So all you need to do is

go to skepticmanifestition. com, go to her episode page. You'll see all those links laid in there directly for you. So

it makes it super easy to get connected with Elizabeth. Once again, thank you so much for coming on. It's been wonderful. It has been.

Elizabeth: Thank you so much for having me.

Will: And a huge thank you to you. We know that there are tons of options out there and having you decide to come along on our journey of discovery with us is an absolute honor for us. We hope you've enjoyed this conversation as much as we have. If you did and you feel called to give back, we invite you to visit our website at SkepticMetaphysician.

com where you can donate to the show or subscribe as a member through our Buy Me a Coffee campaign. Your support will go a [00:42:00] long way towards allowing Karen and I to bring you these wonderful conversations and teachings in more and more robust ways. Well, that's all for now, but we'll see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Metaphysician. Until then, take care.