Jack Thompson -- Entrepreneur

Sun, Jun 26, 2022 . 8:13 PM

34:12

Owner: Lynne Thompson
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, game, business, job, arcade games, buy, years, sell, big, corporate, build, home, joysticks, ebay, knew, play, hours, jace hall, book, entrepreneur
SPEAKERS
Speaker 2 (82%), 
Speaker 1 (18%) 
1
Speaker 1
0:24
Hello, and welcome to the story human. This is Lynne Thompson and I'm here today with Jack Thompson, who does have the same name as me. Yes, we are siblings. He's a fascinating person with a great entrepreneur story to tell. He builds arcade games for home use that customers can play up to 35,000 games on. And he's been in business for 19 years. His journey from the corporate world to the arcade world is a fascinating one filled with ups and downs and lessons learned and I just can't wait to dig into it. So welcome, Jack.
2
Speaker 2
1:00
Hi, Lynn. Glad to be here. I'm excited to share my story. It did have a lot of ups and downs. And only looking back I realize that this is not for everyone. Great. But it's always definitely a must for me and I had to do what I had to do. I couldn't handle working for the man anymore. I wanted to be the man. And it wasn't an ego thing. It wasn't just that I knew I was better than most of my bosses. And I could do their job better. And I couldn't get recognition for it. And it was killing me. I knew I was better things for me to do. I worked retail, the very beginning. I worked long hours, I knew I was better. But I had no choice. I was not educated. For many years, I worked in liquor stores. I got a break from my sister, who gave me a small job working on a computer for a few months. And that gave me some experience. But it really started by chance that my young daughter who was 33 was in preschool at a church. And my wife met the mom of her daughter. And they invited me to New Year's Eve dinner. That person was Michael Brown. He works for L'Oreal. And he was a manager. And he had a very similar background to me working in retail. And he understood that, and he knew I had no experience, but he knew I had the mind and the acumen for numbers. So he literally handed me a job with no PC experience running an old windows 3.0. And I just dove into the water and started to swim. And while I was lucky to get that job, what I did after that was was my doing, I ended up having a 20 year corporate career. But as I moved through the corporate career from 1995, by 99, I realized I had to leave. And at that time I was emulation was just starting with arcade games, some guy figured it out on the seventh, how you would take the video and audio from an arcade game, shove it into computer shell program, and then play with a keyboard and a mouse. So Miss Pac Man with emulated Missile Command I was playing that at work when I should have been working. And it didn't mean much to me. But then all of a sudden some guy in the UK made an interface interface that you could shove wires from joysticks and buttons into the interface. The interface would then see the computer and then recognize each button and each joystick so all the way you can play arcade games where they're meant to be played with joysticks and buttons. So then I the light bulb went off and I became probably the second or third business in the country to form because I saw instantly my life my forward life. My future life flashed before my eyes. I knew what I was going to do. I knew that this is my destiny. And this is my little my car. I'm gonna hop into dry the rest of my life.
4:02
Do you know that? How did you know that?
2
Speaker 2
4:04
Because I could smell it the money. Yeah, people. Some people don't care about arcade games, but most people, I'd say 75% They love and talk about the old days when they played Miss Pac Man, but they played Donkey Kong or Missile Command or Street Fighter or Marvel's Capcom. Love it. And they don't understand that you can play all these games and home console games from like Atari Genesis as well. That you can play it from home. But not just playing from home in front of a TV with a handheld. You can play it with actual cabinet with a TV and a computer and recreate all the dreams you had back as a kid when you walk into the arcade. You put a $5 bill in the chamber saying you got 20 quarters you can play for hours. Now that dream comes true at home. So people look for something to do with their family. And this was perfect. The kids love supermario they know That is you could be 90 or you could be two, you know, Super Mario. So everyone sees themselves in their home with that game once they see the game we built. So it's an easy sell, you just have to make it available to them. And you push it out, of course through Facebook advertising.
1
Speaker 1
5:16
No. And that's brilliant. And I love how you knew right away. But it took you a while to get there. How did you start?
2
Speaker 2
5:24
Yeah, I kind of like I celebrate that by too many years. Essentially, I started out the way that I thought was best, which was slow, maintain the corporate job because I had two kids and a wife to support because she stayed home for our agreement. And I wanted to get a name recognition for myself. So I purchased at that time, I was just beginning to make some games for people using old arcade games, instead of actual big old TV inside. And your restore an old game with black paint and stuff. It was pretty junky. But back then it was pretty cool for people. And
1
Speaker 1
5:56
I drive far to go to these auctions and stuff, right? Yes.
2
Speaker 2
6:00
And that was fun. I buy joysticks and buttons for people who were just beginning to do their own games. So the DIY crowd was large on eBay. So I would resell joysticks and buttons to people on eBay, increasing my positive feedback. And I figured out after doing about a year, I was making about $4 an hour. But my feedback was growing. And all of a sudden, then I started to make more things and more things. And then I realized in 2003, after 2005, after two years of doing this, I need to have a machine that cuts the wood for me. I did make a couple games by hand from scratch. That was too labor intensive. So I spent $10,000 for cutting machine called a CNC. It's computer guidance. And people thought I was insane. My father in law questioned me. And I told him, it pays for itself in the first year. So that was cutting it. I'm not a woodworker by trade or any any thing like that, but the CNC machines computer guided, so it made me look good. It was really easy to cut once you assemble the files. So we're often running in 2005, after two years, making real games from scratch, using the wood and building it. And while we sold a few, it was mostly a side business at that time, the corporate career was doing quite well moving through other companies. And because you only get a good rate when you leave a company. And I do that for a while. So maybe 2009 or 10. This is doing quite well. And then I realized, maybe I should get a website. So 2009, I've made a website had one done by somebody, it helped a lot. Because people have a lot of questions. And they ended up asking you a lot of questions. So this answered their questions before they asked me saving me some back and forth with customers. They educate themselves first, and they come back with less questions. And then they buy via PayPal, and the website. And then 2014 unfortunate, unfortunately, I was underperforming in my corporate job at the time. And I was fired. And that's because I was working about 50 hours in the arcade business and about 50 hours in the corporate job. And I maintain the corporate job. Well, that's when they had for almost five years. At a pretty high level. I was very proud of it, but it let go after a while. And that was it. And then what am I gonna do now? I said, Well, how about this Facebook thing? You know, I have a Facebook account, I don't have a business account. So social media was big, where I used to work. And I figured if they can do it, I can do it. Because they're selling light bulbs at Philips Lighting. I'm selling arcade games, and which would you rather look at on your Facebook? Great. It's something people want. So I went to looking online and found some guy nearby in Pennsylvania. And for 500 hours, he would build a basic business site and teach me how to boost slash promote your Facebook page. And again, people thought I was insane because they all said I can make a page on Facebook in 30 seconds, what are you talking about? But he knew that I had a business background in marketing, and I just need to be taught the basics. And he did do that. And now we have been doing Facebook for eight years. Wow. And basically I spend several $1,000 A month promoting what I promote specific posts of maybe 3040 pictures of games, I describe it, the pricing of the options. And then I find the demographic I want to promote to which is probably 35 to 55. I can sort by graphic, I can demographic I can sort by major cities within 50 miles. I can sort by income I do anywhere from top 25% income United States. So when I push this out to people, most people seeing it are the ones that might buy my game.
1
Speaker 1
9:49
That's so good, targeted marketing. So now for people who don't know I just want to make it super clear, because your games are so beautiful and special. Describe what we're saying When you say build a game, now I know we have the pieces of wood that you that you hand, you know that you cut on your machine. But I also know that you have an artist who does very customized beautiful art. So these are, I think of them almost as artisanal arcade games. They're not, you're not going to ever see another one just like it, you you, you tend to customize them for your for your customers.
2
Speaker 2
10:26
It's much like a customer who likes sports cars or wants to have a custom paint job. Yeah, essentially, people when they go to that house, they want a game that looks like a game, but has some press, some personal touch to it. The top of the game can be a custom name, like my name is Thompson, it could be Thompson classic arcade. The artwork skin can be classic arcade characters as a collage. It could be their favorite sports teams as a collage. They're from Detroit. I've done artworks from Chicago, Chicago to Detroit teams, Dallas seems New York City teams, Philadelphia teams, and anything revolving around arcades, and of course, home consoles, like Super Nintendo is very popular Nintendo. One game was a big Nintendo controller, which has generally been known as black and gray and red. So people do customize a lot. They love the customization, I probably have up to 100 different designs already made. And over the years. And still a good amount of people do still customize for fi their own work from scratch.
1
Speaker 1
11:31
Oh, that's cool. I just think that's part of what makes them so special. You know, you're not going to get that anywhere. And I remember when you did with, like space, like the cosmos on the side, just
2
Speaker 2
11:44
one of our favorites. When people don't know what we have, they stumble upon us. They really do. And they think okay, it's an arcade game. And no, it's not. They freak out when they realize they can play every arcade game ever made from the beginning. The year 2000 and beyond every home console system, from the Atari era through NES, Super Nintendo Genesis and 64. PlayStation, and they don't understand it. And when they see it, I have videos on the Facebook page, and they see what you can play. It is really a dream come true. And it's me just guiding them to the sale. It's one of the most easiest things at that point. Yeah, once they've done all their homework, and I show them everything. It's easy to close a sale. Yeah, getting to that point has been a tremendous amount of work. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
12:37
Well, you've learned so much over the years, and you've been so determined the whole time. Like how do you? How did you keep going? I know it wasn't always easy.
2
Speaker 2
12:49
That's a good question. I thought about that before this interview. And I think my makeup, how I was born. Everyone has a certain personality. You can change of course. But don't tell me. I can't do something I've always Yeah. But I was more negative. I would think then then I have been in when I was 1819 2021. And then of all of all things. I got involved with a company at the time called Amway. Amway has since been morphed into something else. And it's not was not for me. But they offered reading materials outside of Amway that were self help books, positive thinking, Napoleon Hill Think and Grow Rich, the One Minute Manager, all kinds of stuff. And I'm reading like crazy, because I was like, Oh, this is my ticket. This is my my car. I'm gonna hop in a ride to fame and fortune. It didn't work out. But I left and wait about two years with the attitude is I'm going to do something. And you're not going to stop me? Well, I'm not sure what it is. Yeah. So I just kept doing my corporate job. Once I went through about 10 years of retail. And then again, when we had that light bulb go off in my head when I realized, well, if this is DIY people doing this in mid 90s, why can't this be commercial? I see just one company doing it. And I can be the second company. Because it does help that I'm in the Northeast. And they're on the west coast, the first company ever made. So there's an awful lot. That was what has really helped a lot is people don't think they can do it. Yeah. So if if you think you can do a better than go right ahead, but they don't. They clearly lack but it's the last
1
Speaker 1
14:36
check. It's it's not an easy thing. I mean, you it took you a long time to get to the point where you can do it.
2
Speaker 2
14:44
It's not an easy thing. But it's something that everyone could do if they just put aside the fact that the feeling you have and this is something I thought about a lot recently. If you if you fail with even trying, that feeling of hopelessness is is devastating. But it's far as far worse. It's much better than to try and fail. I mean, I've failed many times on the way up in this business, I've made U turns in the business, I lost three or $4,000. Twice, in different ways, in trying different ways to sell games. And I quickly got out of it, realizing it's not going to work and and realize it's failure as you're trying. Is is good, because you're moving forward. You're so great. Not trying is it's absolutely horrifying to some people it was to me.
1
Speaker 1
15:37
Yeah. So what I hear is that you're very well, stubborn. We both are. I think stubborn helps, right? We're stubborn,
2
Speaker 2
15:48
it does. I have a family too. I mean, that. That's huge, right? We made a decision to have my wife stay home to take care of our children. And that was difficult, impossible. Now, even more difficult, somewhat difficult back then. But I work two jobs to do that. And so if you take on that, that responsibility, you take it seriously. So you're not going to just jump off the cliff, forming your business and say, I'm gonna make a million dollars and quit my job. You wait until something happens, like you get fired from your job. I always knew that. It's now it's time to go. Now it's time to go time. And we've doubled the business since then. And I know I make significantly more than any corporate job I've ever had. That's so good. So I've been a 19 year overnight success.
1
Speaker 1
16:33
Like a lot of people, right, it does take time. And you learned what, what I keep hearing when I talk to entrepreneurs is that they learn that failure just means it's time to pivot. It doesn't mean the end, it just means Oh, I tried that. Now I'm going to pivot a little bit. And it's so cool when you get that. I didn't get that for a long time. But I get it now.
2
Speaker 2
16:53
I think I go to Disney World a lot. And there's one small exhibit that shows Walt's life. And he's quoted in there during his life story. Everyone wants to Well, I need a good failure. And that was well, what was a big failure. And in the video that shows his life was wonderful. He failed. So many times in a row. Yeah. And then he did he hit with a big movie. And he had a breakdown at one time, actually. And he still hit. So he he just mentioned that that mindset is a failure can be turned into just another walking forward step to success. It's all it really is.
1
Speaker 1
17:30
It's part of learning. But yeah, we're not taught that as children, though. I mean, I don't know if you remember, but I think mom and dad, they used to talk about or I remember just feeling like people who started their own businesses. It was too dangerous. They lost their shirt. You don't want to do that. You know, I think that was sort of like the feeling that we got, go get a job be safe.
2
Speaker 2
17:52
Well, I think I think that's important. If you're the type of person that would just think dollar signs in your head and just push everything away. That was boring job you had to get did to make money and dump it all to have a business. The biggest mistake I see people make in forming a business is they try and buy it the business. Yeah, they'll buy the shirts, they'll buy the pens, nails all of a sudden buy everything ahead of time before they even sold anything. Yeah, or worse. They'll go into a bricks and mortar situations. And they won't think about what is my rent? What is my employee cost was everything I had to pay per month. What do I have to do to make up just a breakeven and it takes maybe about an hour to figure that out. But I watched business after business one the highway? Yeah, I can I can drive by a business and look at them and say you could never have succeeded because you didn't have a product that can make enough money even to pay your rent. It just
1
Speaker 1
18:50
they don't they don't have business knowledge and and not not everybody says good at math as you you know, it's very natural for you to crunch numbers.
2
Speaker 2
18:59
It is and I'm not a I never had a bricks and mortar business. So I can't say I'm totally against it. But you my opinion is if you take anything this interview, do a business that is online. Whether it's etsy.com, where you make your own item and sell it on eBay, you sell it or if you want to do a business and here's a good business idea for people who have no idea what they want to do. Simply do arbitrage what that is, is you buy low and you sell at retail on Amazon or Ebay. I did a couple times in my life. One One Christmas season of Black Friday on November 10 years ago 10 to the 3ds handheld consoles were on sale. And I think Walmart had like five of them. And I was the age of the internet. So I went my cell phone I go oh, I can make 50 bucks and each one of the that's what I'm all Oh, resell them on eBay made $300 profit on six of them. That's arbitrage and the name is not well known. So just think of it as Are you selling, so I give that gift to people. And I might do that when I retire, because essentially is going to clearance racks, buy it, buy at Walmart, buy at Target, buy it anywhere at Costco, and investigate what it retails for Amazon, people want convenience in this world, yes. The price may not be the lowest price, but if it's a going price, then they'll buy it and you make the cut, minus Amazon's cut. So I'll leave you with that. Stay online and start small. That way, you have no overhead, you have no rent, you have no worry about, you know, you might fail on a small level, but you want to lose 1520 grand, then you get other ideas.
1
Speaker 1
20:40
You've built your business, you've been so intelligent about it. And you've made such good decisions. I've watched you make these great marketing decisions. you've responded like you said, if if you had a misstep or a failure, you responded and pivoted. You didn't love school, and you're not somebody that thrived in that environment. And I think that's really good for people to hear, to know that there's another way to go if school is not your thing.
2
Speaker 2
21:04
And yet, I believe it's dangerous not to go to school, okay. Especially in this era. In my era, I managed to get a corporate job. And I know when I apply for a job, I knew that I had to have it in. And even then I was told you can't apply for that job. Because they demand you have a four year degree. That door is shut closed, there's no way you get a job in the corporate world now, without a four year degree. So yes, that's correct. But if you were to try try, try try from age 21 to 31 and fail, which is it could happen, then what do you do? You're 31? I have no degree. Yes. But my advice is get the degree would it be two year or four year because almost any career demands now? A four year or two year degree, right? So in build a business while you're working, if you really have a passion about you want to do that? You will find the extra time. If you can't find that your time, then you're not made to be an entrepreneur.
1
Speaker 1
21:58
Yeah. So I would love to hear your take on what what are the traits that we need to be a good entrepreneur, like what makes an entrepreneur
2
Speaker 2
22:10
the ability to work any amount of hours and do whatever it takes, oh man, in general, you're going to have a regular job. And it's so easy to stop when you come home. flip off your shoes, go on the internet, youtube videos, watch your episodic TV. And then that's it. Because hey, I'm tired, man, I drove an hour each way to work I did my 40 hours. The hard part is have dinner, get up, go to your computer and start selling or creating what you do. You have a 3d printer and you create figurines. What do you have a CNC router and you create arcade games or you create with a laser machine, you create invitations for weddings and stuff where you engrave the laser or metal, whatever it is, you get ups and you do that. And you check email, you check Facebook, you check eBay, and you go to bed at 1am. You get up at six or seven. And you do it again on the next night. And you do it again. And and that's what we eat out most people. And that's good. Because if you don't want to burn yourself out, you'll know right away if you made to be an entrepreneur, it this is ridiculous. If I'm not doing this is crap, that's good. Because you've taught yourself before you break down and lose it that you aren't made to be an entrepreneur, it's okay to mean you're less it just means you're not that mold. Right? I didn't want to be a corporate guy. I don't want to be a director or vice president. I've probably committed corporate suicide by having a business on the side, which is fine by me. Yeah.
23:45
Well, I would say it worked out.
2
Speaker 2
23:47
It has but you know, there are the negatives. You have to pay your own health care, you play double Social Security tax, you pay Medicare tax, all that as your your responsibility when you have only one person making money. Yeah, that's hard. So your tax rate is lower. But your tax rate for those things you'd ever had to pay for it now are there and you have no 401k You have nothing. So you have to save yourself. And you have quarterly tax payments, and you have to save money for that. And again, I'm working crazy hours. I'll be up till now I do spend a couple hours a night for myself, but I do work until 1am most nights. But the best thing about being self employed. I'll sleep to 930 10 o'clock. I had to get my seven eight hours. Otherwise, you just become exhausted. Okay, yeah.
1
Speaker 1
24:35
That makes me happy that you're home and you can set your own schedule.
2
Speaker 2
24:39
Yes, I have a 30 yard walk to my barn. So it's not for everybody. It's not
1
Speaker 1
24:47
No, it's not for everybody. But I admire you and what you've built.
2
Speaker 2
24:54
Thank you. It's it is an almost overwhelming amount of work. Yeah, There is nothing easy about it. I tend to take compliments poorly, not because of a poor self image, because I've done it so long. And I'm so good at it. It's fairly easy now. Yeah, it's hard. You understand? I could teach someone to do what I do. And they would have an easy time of it, because I follow the work in. So I would think that if I attempt to sell this business to somebody, it'll be very, very profitable for them. And much less stressful for them. Yeah. Because people get out or, yeah, who, the many guys out there who probably have a corporate jobs who dream having their own jobs, and all of a sudden they see my job advertise my business. They go, wow. A turnkey business, building things. People like to have a plumber, as a Facebook page, you only got to call me when you break down. I build what people want. I build dreams. And it's the coolest thing to go to somebody's house. When I personally deliver a game locally. And the whole family just freaks out. They get excited. Yeah, it's really fun to do that. Because people relive their childhood. And they write what they did what they played. Yeah. And they have, and then children catch on to it. And it's wonderful. Everyone at every age loves what we build. So it's, I don't think it's anything special. I think I'm just making sure that people see it. This this thing that I do, and then they realize how great it is. And then the sale is easy.
1
Speaker 1
26:33
It's easy. It's easy to do. So you've built a couple of machines for pretty famous people, right? We didn't talk about that.
2
Speaker 2
26:39
I did build a very special game for a web celebrity. His name is Jace Hall. But more importantly, I was called out to, to set the game up in North Hollywood. And in walks Dolph Lundgren, who have the doing some work in the studio. So I met Dolph Lundgren. And I met Rick Fox with a LA Lakers player who was friends with Jace Hall. We built a game for Stephen Belafonte, a former husband to male via the Spice Girls fame. Yeah, go out there and set the game up. That was cool. Also, while I was at the North Hollywood, the next year, doing some minor work on this game in North Hollywood, we had a customer about an hour away. We had a game like that that was being shipped, he wanted to personal service. So my son Jack and I flew out to do the service on his game and set them up. And the first customer who I met Dolph Lundgren, and stuff, won some service on his game. So I went by to do that. And I was only there for an hour. And it was his little kids. And in walks his mom. And his mom was Jamie Lee Curtis. Oh, cool. And, and that was the coolest thing. What was even cooler was as my son is done playing games. He had no idea who she was. Was that generation gap? Yeah, never saw any of her movies. And the one guy had say, Do you realize her family is Hollywood royalty? Tony Curtis? Yeah, I didn't know that, either. So it was, it was a big generation gap there. But yeah, I met a lot of famous people. But to me, it was just, I enjoy the average guy, I delivered a lot of wealthy people in terms of they had that big 5000 square foot home, I really enjoy going to an average ranch house where I know the guy who makes 70 5060 grand a year. And this is a big expense for him. And that's the guy like it delivered to, because it means so much to him. Yeah, I think lots of the guy makes 100, grand 20, grand 20 grand or more. But it really means a lot to this guy rushing to buy it. So my fit my most fun deliveries are so people who are just average people and working their hard job and then get this dream delivered.
1
Speaker 1
28:54
I love your description of that. I never thought about that. Like when you deliver the the games in person that that excitement factor. I mean, that is really cool. And you get to see that over and over. So that's a nice part of what you do. Then you make something that people enjoy.
2
Speaker 2
29:13
It's actually a very expensive way to do that. I don't make much money after costs, and a helper and gas and tolls and taxes. But it's people want that because if I live within tuner miles of you, shipping it to them seems so silly. Yeah. Right. They, I mean, the area where the ones delivery, I'm in the northeast, one of the highest income areas in the country. So I positioned perfectly. And I recognize that so I have to provide the service.
1
Speaker 1
29:40
Yeah, but I think that's smart. And I just think you've made a lot of good decisions along the way. And I'm super proud of you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all that good stuff. And a long road. Yeah, it has been but you you really never gave up. Do you think that's really underneath it all, the big thing is just never give up.
2
Speaker 2
30:03
Yes, you've heard me say this before in life. I'm not quite as strongly believe it. But if you build your self image up as a child, to your children, or as a child from your parents, that's it. That's all you really need is a strong sense of worth. And you just need that vehicle wherever it might be, whatever job or career you want. I mean, look at your son. It's just tremendous that the ethic is taught our parents worked their asses off. I sold paraffin candles by door when I was five years old.
1
Speaker 1
30:41
I know. Our mother had us do that. Yes. You know, I
2
Speaker 2
30:44
had muscular dystrophy carnival when I was 10, raising money for Muscular Dystrophy.
1
Speaker 1
30:49
Let's see, I remember that. I don't even think you remember. I remember you having a carnival when you were like, six. I remember being shocked. You were so young. And you saw this advertisement on the TV. And it was I guess it was Jerry Lewis. And he's like, have a muscular dystrophy carnival this summer in your backyard. invite everybody. And you made up games? I think there's two things about that story. That's amazing. One, you were six it decided you would do that. That's not an average kid. Right? And the other thing is Mom said yes.
2
Speaker 2
31:22
Yeah, things were different back then I guess. Essentially, the self image is key. But you could be a negative thinker. You know, educate yourself. Self Help, books are wonderful. Probably the biggest book I've ever read came along later, in my in my corporate career, maybe about 1999 2000 When I quit the job to get a much better job at Ben and Jerry's ice cream. And my boss, my mentor gave it to me, and he knew what that meant. But once he gave me the book, a new IP quitting. It's called, Who Moved My Cheese? Oh, I heard about that. But that book is incredible. It teaches you where you think you want to be, where you should be, how to do it. And it basically a self image book. That's the one I'm going to leave you with. And then you get a summary online for free in 32nd search of the summarize the book, Who Moved My Cheese? Yeah, it makes you understand that what you're doing may not be what you're meant to do. And I was meant to be a business owner. I didn't know what it was, what the vehicle could be anything. It happened to be a games. Yeah, I wasn't going to be deterred. If it didn't work out, it would have been something else.
32:36
You were meant to do it. Now.
2
Speaker 2
32:39
There is a one argument I read back and forth with entrepreneurs. Are they born or made? Who cares? Be an entrepreneur.
1
Speaker 1
32:44
was such a great interview for me because I learned things about my brother's journey that I hadn't known are some details and some really interesting takes on how he pivoted and how he persisted. And why. And I'm hoping that some of those things are helpful to you. If you're considering building a business, I can't thank him enough. He had so many good things to say. And of course, I've always loved him and I'm proud of him. But today, listening to this interview again, I'm even more proud. So thank you to Jack Thompson. Check out the show notes for the book he recommends. I'll put his website in the show notes too. It's arcades are fun.com. Just so you know. And have a great week, guys and I'll talk to you next week on the story of human thanks.

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