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Who are we? We're Thicc Radio! We're James and Tim; two gainers who want to explore everything to do with gaining and feedism. This week, we sit down with our special guest to explore the experience of being transmasculine and all the ways that it intersects with the gainer experience.
New episodes will come out every Tuesday, so subscribe! Please rate us five stars, leave us a review, and share this episode with your friends, and if you want to reach out to us, you can find us on our socials below. So until next time, bye fats!
James
Instagram: @s.t.a.n.n.u.m
BeefyFrat: @stannum
Tim
Instagram: @thickey_mouse
Grommr: @orpheus
BeefyFrat: @thickey_mouse
Twitter: @thickey_mouse
YouTube: @thickey_mouse
TikTok: @thickey_mouse
Special Guest | Ray
Instagram: @translaardvark
Thicc Radio
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Email: thethiccradio@gmail.com
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[Intro Music]
Let's talk about it.
James: Hello, and welcome to Thicc Radio, the podcast where we talk about gaining and everything in its orbit. I'm James.
Tim: And I'm Tim. So, let's get into it. Today we're joined by a special guest, you know them. You love them. Today, we've got Ray.
James: Yay, Hey Ray. How are you doing buddy?
Ray: Hey there, it's good to be here.
James: Oh my gosh. Well, look listeners, you can’t see him but Ray is looking real adorbs. Ray…How would you describe him? He's an emo…You're an emotional support human?
Ray: I’m…I…I have a cat. He's not my emotional support cat, I’m his emotional support human.
And I like to say, he's just like his daddy, he big and chunky, and Yeah, so we're both here.
Ray: We're here, we're queer. We're ready to go.
James: So, Ray you messaged to speak on?
Ray: Gender. This is my thing. I identify as a trans man.
Ray: And so, this is something that I think is maybe a bit lacking in our community a little bit.
Um, you know, just the discussion of what it means to be trans, you know what it means to have a different gender identity, how that informs how we see our bodies, how other people see our bodies, how weight gain affects us in different ways.
Ray: How society sees us in weight gain, like there's a lot that kind of falls into it.
So I also, I am an advocate for Trans rights and for transients in particular.
Ray: And so this is a subject that's near and dear to my heart. So, when I saw that, there wasn't anything yet, I thought, you know, I sincerely doubt that these guys are transphobic, maybe they just haven't had somebody who was able to talk to them yet.
Ray: So that's why I reached out and I'm very grateful for this opportunity to be able to talk to you guys. So thank you again for having me.
Tim: You're welcome. And that's precisely correct. We just hadn't had anyone approach us yet, you know, neither James nor I have ever had any issues with talking about the topic.
Tim: We just didn't really know a whole lot of people that were both trans and in the Gainer community.
James: So, Ray I'm curious, did you first discover your transness or your connection to the gainer community? Or did they come hand in hand?
Ray: So for me, I knew I was trans before I even knew what gaining was, I always knew and you can ask a few people, you know, different people who identify as gender non-conforming or anything.
Ray: That's not cisgender but they kind of realized something might be off as you were growing up. I knew for me that when I was about five or six, I think I distinctly remember. You know, my mom. Mom, I want to be a boy. Like, you can't really get any more clear than that, especially for six-year-olds.
[James Laughs]
Ray: I don't think… And yet here I am, I waited until, you know, 2017 is when I only start doing things.
That's when I started socially transitioning. I started medically transitioning in 2018 and I didn't discover the Gaining Community until partway through 2020.
Ray: And that was just, you know, kind of In the same way, that some of us do we start out as lurkers, we're just kind of peering and then slowly or like “Okay maybe I can like dip my toes in a little more.” and then slowly before I know it it's like “Oh I didn't even mean to and now here I am.”
Ray: I accidentally seem to have put on like 40 pounds, okay?
[Ray Laughs]
James: (Sarcastically) Oh no, how absolutely, how awful look at you.
Tim: It's so funny how that whole thing works out.
Tim: It's almost like there's a part of your brain that's feigning this discourse in your head like “Gain weight? No no I couldn't. No no. I mean I, well if you insist.”
Ray: Oh okay I suppose if I must.
James: If you must.
James: It’s a bit like what was that? There was an SNL skit wasn't there with Kristen Wiig and it's the whole (affected accent) “Oh, please don't make me sing.” and she's like easing her way to the piano, and everyone's like (irritated tone) “No one's asking you to sing.” she's like, “Oh no, I mean it. Please don't make me sing. I'm not prepared.”
James: “But the people, they want me to sing. I have to sing. I'd be a terrible hostess if I didn’t sing..
No, it's very that Vibe. I think for a lot of people when you first dip your toes into it. It's like I'm trying to give a good example. There's just this suction that happens.
James: And all you've stuck in, is a little toe, a little pinky toe, but there's enough suction that somehow, your foot goes in. Then you legs in, and then before you know it, you've just fallen in face-first and you're floundering around in the waters of weight gain. And by the time you resurfaced, you know, 50 to 100 pounds have gone by.
James: And you just go, “Oh, well, then.”
Ray: By the time you resurface, you're just a full-fledged whale at that point. And I was like, well, I guess I belong here.
[Tim Laughs]
Tim: I've clawed my way out of the swamp of weight gain.
[Ray Laughs]
James: By that point, it's not even about gender transformation.
James: It's just a full species transformation.
It's like at that Point, you know, there's not even gender to consider.
There's, there's, what do you call those teeth that whales have that filter through Krill you got those going on, the blowhole, there's like a humpback and a tail and there's a lot of like…
Ray: All the blubber, all of it.
James: Exactly. Exactly. You know, so this is this is this, this is the secret truth, isn't it? Of the whole trans narrative, you know, gender is stage one and then full-fledged species transformation into whales. That's the secret. The secret agenda, isn't it? We’re outing you here on the podcast.
[Ray Laughs]
Ray: I'll be the first one to say that, you know, gender constructs.
They can be really dumb.
[James Laughs]
Ray: There are times when it's, like, I see jokes and memes on the internet of like, how do you identify male-female?...
Ray: …Other, do not care. And sometimes I'm just, like, I honestly don't care. I am human, I think.
[James Laughs]
Ray: And I don't have the time. I feel like some sort of like, weird like Amorphis thing that's floating through the cosmos.
Ray: So fuck if I know
Tim: Know you're not alone, you're not alone. I mean, like I, I may not have had the experience of grappling with that, you know, because it just didn't happen for me. Like, I'm okay with the gender that I was assigned at birth, so I can't identify, but I can, I can certainly imagine how difficult…
Tim: That must be to grapple with especially at a young age and then when puberty happens and you see that things aren't going the way you wanted them to go, you know I can I can just imagine how soul-crushing that must be.
Ray: Yeah, it's, it's an experience you know and you know there's, there's a lot of different ways that I… there's one trans Advocate that I really like. Her name is Paula Stone Williams.
Ray: She actually was the head of a, like a Christian Network for a while, and then she came out and they all just said, “Oh, we don't need you anymore. We’re going to let you go.”
Ray: But she kind of said something like, “When I was growing up, it's not that I hated being a…” She said, “It's not that I hated being a boy. I just knew I wasn't one.” And that's how I felt. I was good at being a girl.
Ray: I think I did that pretty well. I just didn't know, I just knew it wasn't for me. And what Paula also says, as she said, “I wished that one day, the gender fairy would come and wave their wand. And then I would just wake up what I was, and the gender fairy, never came, and it was about as saddening as learning that Santa…
Ray: …Did not come and put presents under the tree but rather it was my parents trying to do it quietly while drinking their whiskey.”
[Ray Laughs]
Tim: I actually love what you just said and it's not that I want to try to equate gender and weight gain on the same level.
Tim: But like how you said, you wish that the gender fairy would just come and wave a wand. And like there are so many gainers that would love for the fat fairy to come along and just wave the wand and all of a sudden we wake up in the body that we want to be in. I mean, there is, there's a commonality there, you know.
Ray: Yeah.
James: But I suppose similar in that regard as well is, you know, as much as it would be lovely for that fairy to come along and magically make it all happen for you. It's not going to. You need to get to a point of understanding that this is your lived reality and no one's going to make it happen for you.
James: But you. So I want to ask, you know, transness in general. I think people are starting to get a bit more of an understanding of just, as that conversation happens, more in the wider world, but what has your experience been like as a trans person in the gainer community?
James: And if you came out during your time in the community, has that experience shifted?
Ray: Well, like I said, I was already out before I had found this community. And even now that I am not just lurking, but I'm in the pool swimming around with everybody as some sort of, you know, whale in training, maybe I don't know.
Ray: I sometimes not gonna lie sometimes, I feel like a bit of an outsider or interloper, you know I don't always feel completely integrated. Now, I don't know if that's necessarily just because of my gender identity.
Ray: You know I am relatively new and unknown. You know I used to have a Grommr, I don't have one right now you know, I’m only on Instagram. I'm not a very popular person. I don't have a ton of views or anything, you know, but I like being where I am and I like being in the community and making friends and so far the friends that I have made are made with you guys, but I haven't had a ton of people reaching out and wanting to engage in Friendly dialogue.
Ray: And I know for a fact I am not the only trans masculine guy in this community. I can think of a handful of guys, you know, softboyseth if you guys know who he is, there's also chubbybeartransman, you know, both of those guys, I think are awesome.
Ray: But, you know, when I think about who we envision, you know, I think about, you know, who we might see in the art or indifferent fiction stories.
Ray: We don't see trans people. But, that's kind of how it is in the general world.
Like, you know, I've never seen a Warren Davis story with a trans man.
James: Yeah.
Ray: I don't know if I will and so it's not that I don't necessarily feel welcomed at times because, you know, I'm here and I am very grateful to have the chance to talk with you all, but it's just that there aren't a lot of times where I feel like, there are other people that look like me.
Tim: Hmm.
James: And look that that makes perfect sense as well, you know, to listeners, there is a fantastic documentary on Netflix, that I would suggest, which I believe is called Disclosure.
Ray:Yes.
James: And it was a brilliant dive into the way that the trans experience has been presented through the media and really holds the media accountable for the way in which trans people have seen and viewed.
James: Like so, an example is, you know, the movie Ace Ventura, which, great movie. A lot of people love it. Jim Carrey comedy is usually pretty on point. But in the first movie in particular, you know, there was a sort of gross moment where at the end, the villain, who is a woman is revealed to be trans and still has their genitalia and that is used as the joke that is there news for ment for vomiting and all these other horrible, horrible things.
James: And part of the reason to mention this documentary Disclosure is to realize when you look at the scope of how often trans representation is used as that a vomit-inducing butt of the joke, you can begin to understand why as part of mainstream culture, it's just not seen in a positive way and why we need to do a lot of a lot of work to really get to a point where we can understand transness as a very important and very valid thing.
James: Let's ask one of those questions that are stupid and basic but for the sake of putting a definitive answer out there, is the goal of transness to eventually look like a passing cisgendered man or woman?
The answer is?
Ray: (emphatically) No,
James: (sarcastically) But why Ray, why?
Ray: The goal of being trans is not to look like anyone in particular?
Ray: Your goal of being trans is to feel good in your body and to feel like what you're feeling inside is congruent with what you look like on the outside. You know, I might touch on this a little bit later, but, you know, if there's a lot of different ways in which gender and sexuality are manifested, we have our identity, which is up here, in our head, you know, and you know, in our souls, you know, wherever how we feel that. And then our gender expression, which is how we physically will look.
Ray: I know plenty of people with whom those do not look the same, you know. We have, I am a trans masculine guy and I dress masculine. I, and that's how I feel comfortable.
But there are plenty of other people who you know, even cisgender people who don't look that way.
Let's think. Mmm. Great example. Billy Porter, he is a cisgender gay man, but he has worn dresses.
James: Mmm.
Ray: Right?
James: Yeah.
Ray: And then we can think about so many different people today.
We can see cisgender women. And, you know, we think about the time when before, you know, pants were allowed to be worn that those were specifically a male article of clothing.
You know, we see this gender women were wearing pants all the time that shouldn't be an issue either.
So it's very much a personalized experience.
James: Yeah.
Ray: My, my perception of masculinity may not fit yours, but it doesn't mean it's any less valid.
James: Right?
Tim: I find that really fascinating like that comment you made about, you know, before women were allowed to wear pants. Because like, I'm an aficionado of old films and I remember old sex symbols from the 30s like Marlena Dietrich. And she was made a sex symbol because she wore men's clothes. Because she would put on a suit and a top hat and serenade…
Tim:…A woman and even like, I can't remember which movie it is. But in one movie,she kisses a woman right on the lips, you know. And like this was (an indignant tone) so scandalous for the 1930s like “Oh she's dressed like a man and she's acting like a man and we can't, we don't know what to do with this, you know. But she's German…
Tim:…So of course, she's from Europe, so that's why she's weird.”
[Ray Laughs]
Tim: Like you know, it's like the foreign movie stars, they gave all this leeway to because it’s like “Oh they're from Sweden, they're from France. They're from Germany, they're not like us.” But I just, I find that really interesting how something as simple as putting on an article of clothing that is considered opposite of what the person is supposed to be wearing can either propel you into this weird place where you become like a sexual fantasy or you become a complete social pariah.
James: Oh, fully
Ray: Yeah.
James: And it kind of makes me then want to ask when it comes to the trans experience.
Of course, there are a lot of folks who expressed the view that transness isn't real, but we as gainers also have the experience of our desires being invalidated as well.
James: If you could speak to cisgendered gainers for a moment about your experience, what would you want them to know? Just, first thing.
Ray: Sure. Um well, you know, to kind of piggyback a little bit on what we were talking earlier about gender, presentation, and identity. You can be trans and not medically transition, you know, you can have surgery, you don't have to, you can have hormone therapy, you don't have to.
Ray: It is not a requirement that you need to do this in order to be trans. So, We can have plenty of people who will never go through any sort of medical anything, and still identify as male. I, have been medically transitioning since 2018.
Ray: So I have been using testosterone for that length of time. Now, the way I try to explain it is that I am using testosterone to fight against my biologically, female body to appear as male as possible.
Ray: If I were to stop taking testosterone, my body wants to naturally revert back, there will be some things that can't change. Like, my voice will stay as deep. And my hair will kind of stay here. But, you know, my body fat will go back to where it wants to be, you know, my skin will change again. You know, the nerve sensitivities will change, things like that.
Ray: And you know fat also comes through, you know, muscle, muscle mass also. So we have that on top of everybody's genetics, which also impact the way that they gain weight.
Ray: So, you know, if you think about it, I am going through a few extra hoops I think to try to make gaining weight work for me. You know, because while some people are like, if I'm fat everywhere, I'm happy about it.
Ray: But I know for me, if I got fat in certain areas that's just going to make me feel awful, you know. Some people like, I'm sure that's something you guys would be like, oh, I love the fact of having moobs.
And if that happened to me, I'll just, I would cry.
James: Yeah. And you know, you…
Tim: I can understand that.
James: This is part of that whole logic conversation because of course, even just within cisgendered conversation on weight gain Dynamics. I mean, “Hell-er” How many conversation points about people being like I want a rounded belly. Oh, I'm jealous of guys who can grow moobs.
James: I'm jealous of guys who've got these dumpy dump truck asses, you know, and it's like even outside of gender. What we're really saying is it is kind of gendered, we are kind of making these inferences if we want to look more masculine or even feminine might be the preference of some guys, you know.
James: So A sort of shyness to the idea of gender transitioning really kind of isolates us in this moment of, oh, well, you can only have what is presumed to be okay to have. Which is ridiculous. Because what we're ultimately saying is we want to take the body that we've got and change it into the body that we want.
James: And yet we're still trying to gatekeep we’re still trying to say, yeah, “You'd be hotter if the moobs weren’t as big, you'd be hotter if the belly was a different shape.” and, that's fucking wild to me because, you know. Obviously, there's always posts where people are, like, have more nuts and avocado if you want a heavier belly and it's like girl that look, I'ma put this out there, there is actually no consistent scientific evidence that says any one food item is going to make your body do one thing or another, that is literally half the point of muscle gaining to be quite clear.
James: Right? Is to exercise a part of your body to emphasize that part of your body. That's the only way you're going to get thing that you're going to want to have. And it's going to be muscle not fat. Everything else you get genetics, luck of the draw, and you've got to be willing to be on board with it because it's like a Kinder surprise.
James; You don't know what the fuck you're gonna get. You need to be willing to be like “Shit. This is my fat body. I fucking love it.” But of course, there is that thing for trans people and I think that's a question very much worth asking. So you've alluded to it so far and I think we can kind of get a sense of the answer.
But you know when it comes to medically transitioning, is there that moment where you either have to put gaining on pause while you take hormones? Are you allowed to continue to grow when you take hormones? Does it benefit the transitioning process?
James: Does it hinder it? Because as you say, there are going to be those moments where if you were to grow, a pair of moobs that's going to be triggering for you. And obviously that's not a positive thing. So with all of that said, what's the reality of the kind of medical thing of that process? Because, I imagine, there are potentially trans people in our community who haven't transitioned that are nervous too, because they're not sure what's going to happen to them and their own sense of gender Euphoria and dysphoria as they go on that Journey.
James: Can you talk us through that?
Ray: Right. Well, you know, for me, I like to think that, you know, gaining weight during transition, it could be a bit of a double-edged sword. You know, it can work, it can do wonders…
Ray:…You know, for me, you know, hormone replacement therapy has done a lot to change my-- outside to match my insides but it can only go so far. You know, my voice is only going to get this deep. I'm only going to grow a certain amount of hair.
Ray: I'm not going to get any taller. You know I my certain body parts are not going to change size. You know, my body fat has redistributed, over the time that I've been taking testosterone but that also comes with time.
Ray: That's not something that will happen immediately. You know, I, there's not as much fat on my legs as there used to be but there's a substantial amount more on my belly and that has felt very affirming to me, you know, because I kind of look at it as like you know.
Ray: Well this is if you kind of like we're looking at somebody far away and you kind of could see the outline of someone you could say that looks like a traditional masculine body.
James: Right.
Ray: And, I need to emphasize that for me, that's what I write again, everybody's experience is different.
Ray: I'll quote Paula Stone Williams. Again, she says, “If you talk to one trans person about the trans experience, you were talking to exactly one trans person about the trans experience.”
James: Right.
Tim: Yes.
Ray: Mine is not going to look the same as anyone else's.
Ray: So, you know, for me, you know, I also ended up getting a lot of hair on my belly also. Which also felt so awesome. But you know, there's also some fat on my lovehandles and fat doesn't feel so great.
Ray: But, you know, I try to focus on the positive things that came from it, you know, like, um, I don't have like the way that the that the fat has shaped. I don't have an hourglass anymore and that, you know, is something that is more traditionally associated with a female feminine body.
James: Right.
Ray: And for me that's you know, that feels good. But, you know, you kind of eat, I know that we're kind of, this is something that will be, I'll be repeating a lot too. Is that, you know, there are like for trans folks, for even cisgender folks, you know, I won't ever look like other gainers because only, they can look like them.
James: Right.
Ray: This is the, this is the only body I have. I can't swap it out for anything. I can only look like me and I need to remember. And I need to always remind myself of this because I still struggle with, with feelings of dysmorphia and dysphoria that…
Ray:…My body is just as valid as everyone else's regardless of where the fat is, regardless of how much there is. It's still just as valid and is still just as manly as a cisgender man’s.
James: I fucking love that. And, you know, I think this is truly a lesson that cisgendered gainers can take away from the trans experience that, you know. We put so much emphasis on size being the priority on masculinity being the priority in the community, but there is so much diversity to be had, and to be seen, and to be experienced.
James: And when we make that the focus, we miss out on so much. We invalidate the experience of so many people. Not every Gainer wants to get above 250. Not every Gainer wants to be super big and super immobile.
Jame: That's fine. We need to be willing to love on everyone's bodies. Everyone's journey any percentage of fat and body journey, we need to be willing to go there for everyone because what the fuck is the point of this community, If we can't show up for the fucking community? And, to my mind, that's a good lesson for everyone to take away, you know.
James: It's a reminder. Sure, you don't have the body of someone who you might idolize. You don't have the same circumstances or opportunities as other folk, but that doesn't invalidate you and the more that we as individuals lift each other up and choose to take the spotlight for ourselves and take center stage with different bodies…
James: We then become the icons for other people who need to see themselves represented. So, I just want to put that out there to everyone listening. And as a reminder, I said this at the beginning of the podcast for all Looking for more people to speak on different subjects, Ray’s made the point of saying that…
James:...Speaking to one's trans person is one trans person's equivalent of the trans experience. You know, this is not the end of that conversation for us. We're looking for transfeminine people. We're looking for people who are hyper-masc, hyper-feminine looking for people and whether it's to speak specifically on the trans experience or just speak on anything.
James: But people who happen to be trans, you have the opportunity to speak. We're looking for all those people to come and join us for this ride. So again, reach out to us. Let's make these conversations happen. And I just want to throw it there Ray. So you've kind of spoken a bit about how your weight gain Journey, influences your sense of masculinity in contrast to femininity and androgyny.
James: Do you have any advice for Trans gainers? Who, whether it's on the masc or the feminine side of things? Do you have any advice on maybe little day-to-day things that they can start to incorporate that might help them to navigate that kind of dysmorphia and help them to be a little bit…
James:...More secure in their General day-to-day experiences?
Ray: Yeah, for sure. So, I might back up a little bit, and give a little bit more context about my, my full Journey on how weight gain has influenced my masculinity.
Ray: So to give a little bit of context before I started transitioning, before I came out, weight gain was the farthest thing from my life.
James: Right.
Ray: In fact, I struggled with an eating disorder for quite some time. I think that I was at the point of being underweight.
Ray: I think my lowest weight was 125 and I'm 5’4” for context. So, I was pretty…I was thin. I remember a point where I could like curl over and see my ribs.
James: Yeah.
Ray: You know. And that's I remember, I did damage to some of my body because of it, you know, I damaged my esophagus and my teeth as a result, you know, like trigger warning for for people who are struggling with eating disorders out there, you know, regardless of whether you’re in the community or not. You know, I think that I remember being chastised, you know, for being overweight growing up, I was a, I was a bit of a chunky kid, you know, especially when puberty hit.
Ray: I even remember having overweight family members make remarks on my body growing up.
Ray: And growing up. I already had such disdain for my body. So when puberty came around it felt like just the biggest letdown ever.
Ray: You know, that gender fairy never showed up. Um and I just felt well, this is what it is and I'm just…I'm just SOL, I'm never going to have it. This is an I'm just gonna be stuck like this, you know, and I wanted to have my body to change so bad, you know, that, you know, I'd hope that the gender fairy would come and I could instantly become male.
Ray: And then after puberty started, it was the worst confirmation you could have ever received of. Nope. This is what it is. Then after puberty started, I started to gain weight pretty easily and I became kind of involuntarily chubby and I hated it because I was chubby and I looked female.
Ray: Now, we already know about the double standard that exists for body image between men and women, let alone non-binary people, right and being socialized and raised, female and being overweight came with such a slew of issues and such a slew of struggles, that's when my eating disorder started.
Ray: However, after going through therapy, after recovering from my eating disorder and getting back to a place where I have a better relationship with food, I got to a point where I began to feel comfortable, then I explored my gender.
Ray: I began to transition in only, when I felt at that level of comfort, you know, I began to realize maybe being overweight is not a bad thing. Maybe it was just a negative association that I had instilled in me from when I was kid and that I can go on this journey of being fat and loving myself for being fat and that it's okay.
Ray: And, you know, I think that if I wanted to pass along anything for other trans gainers out there, I would want to say that being trans and being a Gainer is a journey of learning to love my body warts and all, you know, and come to a place of acceptance.
Ray: I really love the serenity prayer that’s said a lot in Alcoholics Anonymous, which says. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things that I can. And, the wisdom to know the difference.
Ray: And there are some things about my appearance that I can take control over, and some that I can’t. And, you know, we can only look like ourselves and even if somebody looks like a certain body type I won't ever, you know, look the same. You know, even if we are both transmasculine, people who are the same height, the same way we won't look the same, and that's great.
Ray: That's wonderful. We as a community need diversity, it is essential to showing people that we are inclusive and that we accept people for however, fat they are or want to be.
Tim: I think every Gainer can identify with that on some level. Like, you know, there's there's things that I’ll gripe about like, oh, my belly's not fat looking enough, it's more bloated looking, you know, it's more mpreg looking or like, I would, she have gotta love you, the double chin, which I'm still endeavoring to accept, but it's like like I always say we all want things that we don't…
Tim:...Have you know and it's we just have to get…I had to, I'm still working on just getting comfortable with like this is just how I'm going to look. And I'm not going to have the same type of belly that someone else is going to have. The weights, not going to distribute in the same places as someone else. And there's nothing I can do about that, that is genetic luck of the draw.
Tim: Like James said, So, I mean, I can either sit around and lament the fact that I don't look like, say someone that I see is like a gaining hero or something, or I can just stick, this is just me. And, you know, I'm still working on it too.
Tim: I feel like we all are on some level.
James: I definitely think so.
And I think the point of diversity there is like, ultimately, what is the benefit? Now, if you want to accept two, maybe three archetypes total as the greatest paragons of existence then, the person who is going to be the greatest, there can only be three people, out of 7 billion, eight billion…
James:...How many of us now? Whereas, when you look at diversity as the most important thing you then recognize that there are 7 billion, different ways, 8 billion different ways of being and then everyone has the opportunity to be the best, and it actually doesn't detract from anyone else.
James: It means that everyone's expression of gender, whether it's trans or cis, everyone's expression of size and weight of race, every color, every height, every everything, you know, becomes not only valid, but the most important, the thing to be celebrated.
James: So actually, it doesn't matter where you fall on any spectrum. When diversity is the intention, the success is in the rainbow expression of absolutely everything. And you probably find yourself in a position where you look around and you see how great things are and then you go…
James:…”We need more.” We need more, we need more diversity, we need more of everything, meaning, more of every single person showing up and doing their best. Because that's what's going to give us that most incredible patchwork of human beauty, you know. So I love that.
James: And I think that's such a very important point to come back to. We do have a listener question. If you're, if you're ready for a Ray.
Ray: Yeah.
James: Yeah, getting into it?
Ray: Yeah, totally.
James: The question is, how do you apply a trauma-informed approach to dialogue around gender and weight?
Ray: That's an excellent question. So for those of you who don't know what that is trauma-informed for a little bit of context, I operate in the civilian world as a therapist and I work actually with a lot of transgender youth specifically.
Ray: And trauma-informed care is a way of adopting an approach to health care. Whether it's, you know, physical health, mental health. That creates a full picture of a person's life past and present to help engage the person more.
Ray: It helps to understand the things that are barriers for them, the things that maybe they might have encountered in the past. Integrating knowledge about trauma into our policies and procedures and actively working to avoid retraumatization.
Ray: So when you think about that approach in the way that we talk to people, you know, I try very hard to maintain a very mindful approach when I'm talking to others. That's why I've always said, that's why I am repeating a lot of times in this conversation.
Ray: My experience as a trans gainer. And this is only my slice of perception because there are plenty of other people for whom that's not their reality. And that may be certain things can be really upsetting to them.
Ray: You know. Maybe, you know, somebody else's also had a past with an eating disorder and they're still struggling with it. So, you know, being trauma-informed means, hey, we're going to talk about this and this might be upsetting but I want you to know this so you can feel like you have the choice of being able to participate in this conversation.
Ray: So with regard to weight gain and with regard to talking to others about that. I always like to be able to defer, to the other person, hear from them, what it is that they are comfortable with, you know, and this kind of also ties in with the, you know, what is it like when you're talking with anyone who might not necessarily fit that cookie cutter mold, you know, defer to the other person, understand what their background is.
Ray: You know, ask them questions, ask what do you feel comfortable with? It's just kind of like having a solid relationship. A friendship with somebody. Learn what they're okay with, learn what they're not okay with. Adopt a mindset where we will not actively cause somebody to become hurt over…
Ray:...Something we might say on accident. Now, of course we make mistakes, I will be the first one to admit that sometimes, I say things out of turn and it can sometimes hurt people. And I admit that and I accept that. But just to be knowledgeable in that, I will make mistakes but I want to make sure that my interaction with you is as positive as I can make it.
Ray: So please let me know if I mess up because I don't want for you to walk away from an interaction with me. Thinking that this person has hurt me. And this person has made me feel small. Because I never want anyone to feel that way.
James: That’s beautiful, you know, and to put Tim and I on the chopping block for that for a moment, you know. I think that is something that we make a strong intention to do but of course, I'm not always successful with and I think this is also an important thing to reflect on because sometimes when it comes to the, you know, the political awareness…
James:...And trying to be quote-unquote woke about things. People try so hard to be perfect at every point on using the right pronouns and being inclusive and not using slur language etc, etc. And inevitably, we fuck up because we're very good at the moment about having this conversation about race about systemic racism and how we were all raised to be racist because of how systemic Western culture works but not just race, but transphobic and fat phobic, and ableist…
James: And all those other little things, it is impossible as a modern human to walk about in your day-to-day life as fully conscious and fully able to have every single conversation be problem free. And, sometimes I think we get very caught up in the whole I made a mistake and I can never fix it again or I made a mistake and I've broken that relationship forever.
James: But there's that real importance in acknowledging your own faults and failings, which is where I do feel that as generalized humans. We all struggle with, we're all a little hesitant to put hand up and say “I fucked up and I'm really sorry.” And, I think if we're willing to have that conversation if we're willing to talk to our trans friends and say I just want to apologize for, you know, this situation that occurred and even just the little apologies, isn't it?
Ray: You know, it's not always needing to make the big song and dance. In fact sometimes the big song and dance is probably more a detraction than an inclusion, but something as simple as, you know, if I were to refer to you as she and you go “Pronouns, are he.” And I'm like oh sorry, He, and then we move on and it doesn't need to be a huge issue.
James: We can just nip it in the bud. It's the reminder. It just, it just doesn't need to be a detraction .
It doesn't need to be this fear that causes people to be hesitant to learn and to engage.
And I do think that's where a number of people do get caught, across…
James:...varying minority struggles.
People find themselves hesitant to put themselves in a position of needing to apologize, should they make a mistake. That's, that's the observation there, Tim?
Tim: I was just going to say, you know, I can admit that when I was younger I didn't have a ton of exposure to at least not that I was aware of is the thing is like I'm finding out that plenty of people I've known in the community for years are trans but they….
Tim:...I didn't know that at the time they weren't comfortable coming out about it and I was insensitive, you know, I didn't really understand the struggle. I didn't understand what their experiences were like. Until I started making friends with some trans people and they explained to me what their Journey has been like so far.
Tim: And the kind of things that they've had to put up with, and things. I've had to go through, and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe that. I was just, I guess blithely unaware that this was happening in my own community. And then, and then witnessing all of the, you know, the hate that they were getting.
Because that's, that's still a blight on the gay community as a whole, like, I've talked before, about how gay men are always saying things like, Oh we have to keep fighting, the struggles…
Tim:...never over. We haven't won all of our rights yet. We can't leave anyone behind. And then on the other hand, like they'll make fun of someone in a bar, they think doesn't, you know, meet their visual approval and it's like, how can you do that? Like, you can't do those two things at once.
Tim: You can't be an advocate for change and then gate keep You know, and I'm just, I'm glad that I met the people that I now know and I can understand what their struggle has been like.
Tim: And yeah. So I mean that's and sometimes it is just a lack of exposure, some of its willful ignorance, but some of it sometimes it is a lack of exposure.
[James and Ray attempt to speak at the same time]
James: Sorry, go ahead.
Ray: There's…oh, it's all good.
Ray: I was going to say, you know, this kind of thing can tap into a greater conversation about cancel culture. You know, that kind of leads to this thought that if we make a mistake, even if it's a big one, cancel culture says, you messed up and you're not redeemable and I will never forgive you for this, and it never gives people that opportunity to make amends and to show that they can grow.
Tim: Thank you for saying that.
Ray: We are not, we are not born woke. We are not born with all of this knowledge. We have to start somewhere. I have a saying that I really love. That says, “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.”
Ray: And if we adhere to this cancel culture, no one will approach that no one will adopt them.
And regardless of where we're at, we need to be understanding of that, we're all human, we all fuck up.
Ray: Let's just get past that.
Tim: Like I had said to James before what happened to teachable moments?.
James: Mmhmm.
Tim: where did that go? Why is that no longer a thing? Why is it just “Oh, you made a mistake!” I don't like what you said. I don't like what you did. I don't like what slogan you had on your T-shirt…
Tim:...the world's better off without you Like, how do you jump from one extreme to the other?
James:To my mind, it's an unwillingness to acknowledge the potential of someone's own flaws. You know, what's that phrase? When you're younger, your parents turn to you because you say, oh, I hate so-and-so, because he's such a bitch, or she's like this and your parents say something to the effect of…
James:...”The reason why you don't like that is, because that's a quality that, you know, that you have.
And instead of addressing it in yourself, you take it out on that other person.” And I find myself having to challenge myself, if I come across someone or a situation that I do not like, is it because I see it in myself, and I am not prepared to address that for my own growth and change?
James: And I think the same thing whether it's political, gendered, weight-wise, you know, if I don't like something, why is it that I don't like it and maybe taking an opportunity to be like, maybe that vitriol is something that I need to disseminate. Maybe I don't need to direct it at that person.
James: Maybe I need to reframe it as an outward expression of an internal frustration and maybe that internal frustration, I need to address head on and discuss, what am I going to do about that? Is that something that is for me to change? Because it's a negative trait? Or is it a part of myself that I haven't come to accept?
James: So, I think that's a good challenge for everyone listening.
James: No matter where you fall on any spectrum in any minority group. Remembering to allow for teachable moments with individuals, to give grace. And obviously there is a massive difference between someone who is using the wrong pronoun from time to time and someone who is trying to outright, run you off the road because you're transgender.
James: There is a very clear distinction between an honest mistake and actual intent to kill, you know, sometimes we need to reframe how we perceive these transgressions, in these moments against us.
James: Which is always a good reminder and Ray just to sort of closed off here. What do you think as a community we can really learn from our trans members?
Ray: That's a…I think that, you know, Kind of like it…
Ray:...I feel like a broken record a little bit but you know, it always bears repeating that you know, every single non cisgender person is completely valid regardless of what they decide to do with their bodies or weight or anything.
Ray: You know, I would love to see more representation of bodies that don't conform to that mold of what we might expect to see for traditionally masculine overweight men.
Ray: You know, one thing that I would like to say is kind of like just something to bear in mind whenever we're talking to people is just being aware of our use of language, you know, and our use of communication.
Ray: You know, sometimes we don't realize that what we're saying can be hurtful.
Ray: So kind of taking a step back and thinking you know, how kind of again, kind of taking like that trauma-informed approach. Like how can I say something or how can I ask a question respectfully, and not hurt…
Ray:...somebody. One thing that I hate is when people would say to me, “Oh I never would have known that you used to be a girl.” Or, “I never would have known that you were trans. I thought you were a real man.”
Ray: Never say that! That's incredibly offensive.
James: Nothing like a back-handed compliment.
Ray: Those are what we would call microaggressions, which are kind of what those are.
You know, little things that will just kind of always a little dig at you.
Ray: And while maybe one might not hurt. If you get like those thrown at you all the time that's going to add up and that's going to add to a level of hurt and trauma to somebody's psyche. So something I always like to say is please communicate you know if you're with any just like with any person that you might want to have sex with or interact with in one way you know ask what they are okay with ask what body parts they like to have touched or not touch ask what they like to call said body parts.
Ray: How much they feel comfortable with. Wearing or not, wearing asking about what they are okay with being called, you know. I think I remember you guys kind of talking a little bit about like, what your Gainer pronouns are in the same way, you know, asking what our regular pronouns are, you know, when referring to another person or referring to us as gainers within the community. Communication is key.
James: Yeah.
Ray: And it's sexy like I can't think of another time when somebody is, like if somebody asks me, you know, like what would you like for me to call this, or what, how would you like to be addressed as, like, heart eyes emoji happens.
Ray: It's just like, “Oh, yes!” It's such a great moment when somebody is like I, your comfort and your like my respect for you is greater than my need to have an ejaculation like, Mmm, chef's kiss.
Ray: Love it. All about it.
James: beautiful stuff. Well, Ray I want to say a massive Thank You for being here today, and really, just laying it all out there for the listeners. We really appreciate it. Just want to ask. Where can people find you online?
Ray: So I am currently just on Instagram right now. My handle is translaardvark. I yeah, I might get a Grommr. I'm not sure but just sticking on Instagram for now you can find me there.
James: That's a wrap for now here on Thicc Radio. Please remember to like and subscribe, rate us 5 stars and leave a good review. If you liked this episode, the podcast, or just us in general. Share it with your friends and encourage them to tune in. As always, you can find me on Instagram @s.t.a.n.n.u.m.
Tim: And you can find me on Grommr as Orpheus.
Tim: You can also find me on Instagram, Twitter, Youtube and Tik-Tok @thickey_mouse. So until next time, bye fats.
James: Bye fats
Ray: Bye fats.
[Outro Music]
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James: Thicc Radio is a Patreon and Anchor app podcast. Produced by @s.t.a.n.n.u.m and @thickey_mouse.
Tim: Mixed and mastered by @s.t.a.n.n.u.m.
James: Our artwork is provided by @lokitu.
Tim: And our theme song is provided by @bodybycream.
