Deconstructing Masculinity with Ruth Whippman.

Adam Gamwell [00:00:00]:
Welcome to This Anthro Life where human stories unfold in all other remarkable complexity. Today's conversation takes us into the fascinating and challenging realms of masculinity, motherhood, and the nuanced battlegrounds of boyhood in modern society. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. Now in a culture pulsating with polarized views, how do we nurture our boys to navigate the tightrops of identity, vulnerability, and societal expectation? So I'm really excited to be joined today by insightful journalist and writer, Ruth Whippman, author of a new book called BoyMom, where we'll deep dive into the heart of these questions. From the instance that a boy is labeled buddy instead of sweetheart, even as a baby, to the invisible crises nurtured by screens and unspoken societal cues, we'll explore the landscape shaping our sons, brothers, and friends. And this isn't just about raising boys. It's about unpacking the collective responsibility of nurturing, emotionally connected, resilient individuals in a world that often prefers silence to empathy. So let's dive in and unravel the narratives that bind us in the hope of weaving together a more inclusive tale for the next generation.

Adam Gamwell [00:00:58]:
Stay with us. I thought your your book was great, like, really interesting and

Ruth Whippman [00:01:02]:
Thank you.

Adam Gamwell [00:01:03]:
And a fascinating deep dive. And it was particularly well timed. Both me and my partner were very excited when when you came onto my radar because we actually have a baby boy due this month.

Ruth Whippman [00:01:15]:
Oh, congratulations. Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah. So you're right in the start. So yeah. Exciting. So, I am a journalist.

Ruth Whippman [00:01:25]:
So my sort of my favorite thing to do, I think, is to just kind of dive into a topic and really try to understand it. So I start from a place of you know, I'm not trying to start from a place of expertise. I'm trying to start from a place of lack of knowledge and to to take the reader on that journey through, you know, understanding this topic with me and kind of hold their hand through it, but do it through the lens of my own experience. And I did this so America the Anxious, it was kind of about moving. You know, I'm British. I was moving from the UK to the US and sort of navigating this totally new cultural landscape and this kind of obsession with wellness and happiness and what it did to their kind of psyche and the self and what it did to us as a culture politically. So, you know, I I I looked at the self help industry. I looked at, you know, I looked at the workplace.

Ruth Whippman [00:02:15]:
I looked at trends in positive psychology and all the rest of it, but boy mom was a much more personal so here it is. Boy mom was, like, a much more personal journey for me in a way. I am a mom of 3 boys, and my third son was born right as the me too movement was exploding. So I already had 2 little boys, and I was pregnant with a third boy, and suddenly, there's this, like, horror show of male bad behavior, just like one thing after another after another. And every time I open my news app, there was some other, like, terrible thing that some man had had done. And it kind of seemed like we escalated, you know, and I I don't think this was what was actually happening, but how it seemed, you know, as this heavily pregnant with a 3rd boy mom, you know, was that, you know, we kind of escalated from, like, Harvey Weinstein as a sex offender to, like, every man in America is a sex offender. And, you know, obviously, we're going deeply wrong in the way that we're socializing boys. And suddenly you know, I'm a feminist.

Ruth Whippman [00:03:16]:
I grew up with a sort of second wave feminist mom. She was quite you know, in in all the good ways, she was quite dogmatic in my childhood about transmitting feminist values to me. And I think boys was something that I just really hadn't considered that much before I had them and almost you know, I'm ashamed to say, almost before I had my third one, right, as me too was happening. So that was the kind of catalyst that I really was like, oh, god. We really need to look at male socialization, where we're going wrong. I mean, every parent presumably thinks that they want to raise their child to be a good person or maybe not every but in general, that's what people want. But, obviously, we have these huge blind spots, you know, that these things are allowed to happen at such a systemic level. So I sort of wanted to look at my own parenting.

Ruth Whippman [00:04:05]:
I wanted to look at the wider culture through the lens of the home and parenting. And then I wanted to look at sort of wider systems of masculinity and how they were impacting boys and the culture of manhood. So that's what you know, I I tried to mingle my own story and my own very complicated feelings actually and inner conflicts about raising boys in this moment as a feminist and sort of really dig into those conflicted feelings. I didn't wanna be like, here's your 5 steps to raise a feminist son. You know? I think my I felt very conflictedly about it. Is is that even a word? I felt very conflicted about it.

Adam Gamwell [00:04:44]:
Sounds like a real word.

Ruth Whippman [00:04:46]:
And I wanted to kind of explore those conflicted feelings rather than try to deny them.

Adam Gamwell [00:04:54]:
I think that's such an important point too, and I appreciate that. Like, I mean, that really came through in the book too because it's like, how do we wrestle with these these questions that are they're quite profound in terms of, like, how we both interact in the world, as bodied beings, but then also how do we raise children in that space. But then, there's such a you know, since we're in this also kind of politically polarized or politically fraught kind of space that, like, it's very hard to come down with an answer that says, we actually need space for nuance. Yes. Right? That we we kind of we have this, like, knee jerk reaction to to on either side of the political spectrum.

Ruth Whippman [00:05:25]:
Yes.

Adam Gamwell [00:05:26]:
You know? But one thing to to lead into that, I'm I'm curious. I wanna ask you something that stood out to me is that, you know, when you were walking us into the book itself too, you also said something that that I also was like, oh, this is great. You said I didn't have this kind of resources, and and and I needed this kind of book. So that's why I had to write it. So I appreciate you writing it because I also needed kind

Ruth Whippman [00:05:46]:
of book. Thanks. God. I signed you for a couple of writing. You know?

Adam Gamwell [00:05:50]:
What what was not there that you were looking for and that, like, that kind of inspired this this way of approaching the the the the conversation?

Ruth Whippman [00:05:56]:
Yeah. So I think, you know, this was back in 2017, and I think that has changed. There are more resources and books now, but what what I felt was missing was something partly something that was written from a mother's point of view. I think there is this, like, idea with manhood and boyhood that it's this really sort of momentous thing that only men can really understand and only men can really engage with, and women can't possibly be, you know, a full part of that conversation, then, like, as a mom, you're just supposed to back off and let masculinity do its important thing. And I thought, well, that doesn't that doesn't seem right, and it doesn't help me because, obviously, that's not an option. I'm not gonna back off. You know, I'm their mom. And, partly, I wanted something that sort of mix that was really honest about the the contradictions, the conflicts, the emotional journey, and that kind of didn't have the moral certainty that I see sometimes in these kinds of things, either in cultural critique or in parenting books.

Ruth Whippman [00:06:57]:
It's like, do these 5 things, and then you'll get the exact child you want. And, obviously, that isn't true. These are people with their own, you know, their own views, their own preferences, their own agenda that, you know, that we can't necessarily affect. So I just wanted something that was honest and that was vulnerable and that was really owning those complicated and difficult feelings, I think.

Adam Gamwell [00:07:22]:
K. Did you find that there there was a challenge in the the idea you you quoted there was an organization that was looking at kind of the study of male supremacy, I think.

Ruth Whippman [00:07:34]:
Oh, yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:07:34]:
And which is a very intense sounding title

Ruth Whippman [00:07:36]:
of an organization. Yeah. I think that was deliberate. Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:07:42]:
But but this idea, like, that that you, from them, they're kind of bringing up this this idea of, like, how can we have more space to kind of have these these conversations, right, if if we're asking these these bigger pieces? And, like, you know, is there like, I I guess, I'm kinda curious to think about, like, your your your your process and your thinking about the the way of, like, the the pathways of kind of how you figured out who to talk with. And, you know, obviously, boys make sense. You know? Yeah. But, like, how you kind of, like, went through that process of figuring out who who makes sense to to converse and and whether that, like, you know, is that reflected? I'm kinda curious too in the chapter structure in terms of, like, boys and girls stories into schooling into online life. Like Yeah. There's a good narrative flow, but, you know, I'm I'm

Ruth Whippman [00:08:22]:
curious of

Adam Gamwell [00:08:22]:
your thoughts about that. How I did

Ruth Whippman [00:08:26]:
it. Well, just to speak to your first point about the Institute For the Study of Male Supremacy or whatever it was. So the way that I used that quote in the book was that this was within the context of whether or not to engage with incels. I don't know if your listeners are familiar with the incel movement, but they're a pretty sort of repulsive corner of the manosphere, and in a way, they were kind of my greatest fear, you know, for my sons, you know, that that that this was what they were gonna get involved with. And they're these sort of super online men, and their kind of defining thing is that they feel very lonely and they feel, well, that they don't have sex, and so they kind of congregate around this. And they're often very misogynistic. They, engage in all this hate speech that, you know, at the fringes, it's a really, really horrible movement, and they've been associated with mass violence. And, you know, they've they've been responsible for or people involved in that movement have been responsible for school shootings, for mass stabbings.

Ruth Whippman [00:09:25]:
There was one recently in Sydney, which was an incel motivated killing. And the the quote from the Institute for Research into Male Supremacy was that journalists had to sort of of counter the instinct to, sympathize with these guys, you know, that we shouldn't engage with them, that we should just write this off as this, like, disgusting, terrible, misogynistic, horrible movement, and we shouldn't sort of enter into this process with any empathy because, you know, it's almost humanizing these people where they shouldn't be humanized, and I think this was kind of a microcosm of something that I was seeing in a much wider, in a much wider conversation, which is just like men are privileged. They have all these advantages. They're then you are, in some way, sort of giving them a platform, then you are in some way sort of giving them a platform that they shouldn't have. And my approach in this book was really different. I thought, you know, not just with incels, but across the board. I did talk to incels. I interviewed incels, as part of my research, and they appear in the book.

Ruth Whippman [00:10:38]:
And I might I was very keen to humanize these people and to engage with them and to find out, you know, what is actually going on for you. I think we can't really understand why how people get to these places without seeing them as human beings that have been through some terrible path. And until we really engage with people as humans, then I think we're never gonna be able to do that. And so right from the beginning, I wanted to I wanted to speak to boys, you know, and to hear what they were actually saying. I think there's this thing in the culture wars where boys kind of get silence from both sides almost. It's like, on the one hand, you've got this kind of, like, right wing tough guy stance, which is just like, man up. Don't talk about your feelings. Don't show your emotions.

Ruth Whippman [00:11:19]:
Be a man. And then on the other side, you've got sort of these voices from the progressive left which is saying, you know, time for men to shut up. You know, everybody else deserves a chance. It's important to, you know, let a woman speak. Let another marginalized person speak. And I think the effect you know, those 2 things aren't quite morally equivalent, but I think the effect is that you end up boys end up getting silenced from all sides, and this is leading to this, like, huge groundswell of rage and loneliness and lack of connection, lack of belonging. So I was like, you know, this isn't getting us anywhere. You know, it's easy to posture and be like, this is my opinion, but, actually, I think we really need to engage with boys at an emotional level to understand these forces and what's going on.

Ruth Whippman [00:12:04]:
So that was always you know, to answer your the second part of your question, I think that was always my motivation was to really just talk to these people as humans, and I won't always agree. I often won't agree, but, you know, let let's hear from them what they're actually saying. And in terms of the chapter structure, I think it was just you know, I start in very early childhood. I think that sort of made sense chronologically, and it also made sense from my own parenting journey. I was parenting an infant at the time. You know, these patterns are set in place very, very early in childhood for boys, and so I sort of wanted to look at how it started, like, right from the start, you know, how masculinity gets ground up. So I started there, and then I think sort of, you know, I went on to popular culture and how these stories, you know, through the TV, the books, the movies, how that sort of infiltrate. And then I think school was a natural next step, and then I think I got into the sort of older age groups and the manosphere screens, you know, things that were more affecting teenagers.

Adam Gamwell [00:13:07]:
I found the the structure itself actually very helpful to kind of take that narrative journey with you in in that point. But I also dig to this this other bigger question, so I didn't actually ask the the question about the the quote itself. But yeah. But that was, was, thank you for walking through that because that was the other thing that was I thought was an interesting challenge of how do we approach these kind of conversations is, like, there's the the these, you know, like, the this kind of journalistic challenge of, like, typically, you one might wanna sympathize with it. As as an ethnographer anthropologist, like, we typically do that too with the people that we spend time with and interview and and tell stories around. And so there's this kind of back and forth of, like, how do you both not agree with things that people do, but then also tell stories that are sympathetic to our humanity.

Ruth Whippman [00:13:43]:
Yes.

Adam Gamwell [00:13:44]:
And and that's, like, I think an important challenge, especially in these kinds of spaces. Because one of the things that you point out, and I think you rightly pointed out, in the book and then we're kind of saying here too is that there is, like, again, not this moral equivalence in terms of power, like but there is a challenge when we're talking about questions of privilege and how those for an adult, how that would doesn't quite really well map on to to boys or girls is is especially, adolescents, they don't have a lot of power or capital social capital themselves. So this is really interesting, like, tougher conversation that we actually have to have of, like, when we say privilege, how does it actually get activated in what context? Right? And how that's different for an adolescent boy, who is depressed and and feeling isolated versus a Harvey Weinstein. Right?

Ruth Whippman [00:14:25]:
Absolutely. And I think those ideas have sort of power and oppression and privilege. As you say, they don't map well onto teenagers. They don't map well onto children, and they don't actually map well onto our current moment, I think, in terms of gender more broadly. I think a lot of even adult men feel like they're not particularly privileged and, you know, especially men who are not economically privileged. And so I think it's a lot more nuanced, and we get this very blunt instill, which is just, like, male privilege. But, also, even within that paradigm, male privilege comes with very explicit harms as well. You know, patriarchy harms men, and those are not just incidental.

Ruth Whippman [00:15:09]:
It's not like you know, I think it works in a different way from, like, racial privilege or, you know, white privilege or economic privilege. Because, like, written into the very script, it's not these kind of incidental things, but, like, written into the script of patriarchy are all these norms which are really harmful for men and boys, which are you must be masculine, you must be tough, you must be emotionally stoic, You can't show your feelings. And those things get in the way of men's humanity, boys and men. They get in the way of their emotional connection to themselves, their connections to others, their friendships, their ability to find intimacy. You know? So I think the privilege I think it's worth bearing in mind, but it is not the whole story.

Adam Gamwell [00:15:53]:
Yeah. And I I think that's that's such an important point too because it's it's like when we can take more account of that, when we provide more space for that more nuanced conversation, we can actually ourselves. Right? When we see something like that, there there's quite a double edged sword when it comes to things like, you know, privilege and patriarchy too. Right? And, I was actually looking at recently, you know, on your I just recently joined your your Substack. Thank you. To dive into that. So I I I wanna yeah. I'm gonna keep the story going too, you know.

Adam Gamwell [00:16:18]:
So but it's like this this interesting idea that, you know, you recently were writing about the this idea of how can we shift conversations, right, in in terms of, like and what has feminism isn't moving. Like, you know, 2nd 1st and and third wave in this case too of, like, asking questions of, like, the in such important strides of work that that has done for, like, women's and girls' liberation and for broader questions around gender. Right? But then, like, there can be this empathy gap in terms of when we're trying to then bring a conversation over to to boys or boyhood because typically, that's, like, been both the the bad guy literally and, you know, on on one form some kind of victim. Right? But then, like, in between those two is this interesting challenge around, like, male tears mugs and male pain as a as a area of focus to to converse about. Right? And, like, is it legitimate to do so? Right?

Ruth Whippman [00:17:05]:
Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:17:06]:
So I'm I'm kinda curious just to to to talk about this a little bit too and get get this sense of, like, setting the stakes above, like, the challenge of how do we have these conversations that provide space for nuance, when we're talking about politically charged and emotionally charged, work that is rightfully Anthro, righteously angry

Ruth Whippman [00:17:22]:
Yes.

Adam Gamwell [00:17:23]:
You know? Yeah. And trying to find out what that path forward.

Ruth Whippman [00:17:26]:
I mean, it's so it's such an important question, and it's such a complex question because I think what we're dealing with now is this kind of microgeneration of adolescent boys. You know, the boys that were just going through puberty when Me Too happened are now of voting age. So they're now 18, and they have this, like, very ahistorical, very unusual experience of manhood and boyhood. They've the backdrop of their adolescence has been this whole conversation about men and quite, you know, a very, very difficult conversation where they have seen all this righteous anger from women and from feminists, with the me too movement, which has been so important. Of course of course, that conversation has been important, but at the same time, you know, growing up with that psychologically, I think, is incredibly hard. And it wasn't these people that did that, you know, that it really is a case of the sins of the fathers. And, you know, to what extent can we expect today's boys to take on the responsibility of yesterday's men? And, like, how do we have a conversation about, you know, how what does it feel like to be a boy and have your sexuality, your, you know, your early sexual development framed in terms of how harmful it is. You know? It I think the conversation around sex for boys has been almost one that's been framed in terms of assault and rape and harm, which is, of course, an important conversation.

Ruth Whippman [00:18:49]:
Absolutely. But it can't be the whole conversation. And I think that feminists, you know, of which I consider myself 1, have adopted this tone towards boys and men, which comes from a place of righteous anger, but is very much you know, has gone to a place of kind of mocking and ridicule and demonization, which I don't think is actually helpful for anyone because as I've as I've said, you know, many times in many ways, you know, patriarchy harms everybody. It harms men. It harms boys. You know? And feminism could actually be a friend to boys, you know, but, actually, boys are turning against the movement. They're moving poetically to the right, this generation of boys. They're turning towards masculinity influences, towards, like, the Andrew Tates of this world, the manosphere, and they're more likely than their fathers and their grandfathers to think to believe that feminism is harmful.

Ruth Whippman [00:19:45]:
You know, for generations, we were getting more progressive generation by generation, and now it's like that trend has radically reversed with young men. And so something's going wrong. The progressive left really needs to find a way to communicate with boys in a way that's not shaming, that's not mocking. And, you know, I think I feel like I'm at risk of becoming one of those right wing politicians who suddenly starts, you know, seeing women as people when they have daughters. You know, this phenomenon where they're like, as a father of daughters, I suddenly care about women, and it's just like, oh, bullshit. You know? Why didn't you see women as people before? But I think I had some of that when I had sons, you know, because my job is to be their mom and to, advocate for what's best for them psychologically and, you know, within a broader context of justice. But, you know, I think I hear this conversation which is so negative and so damaging, and I think this is not going to bring them in. You know, no one goes towards a movement that says, you suck.

Adam Gamwell [00:20:47]:
It's, it's it's one of those yeah. Because it's like my brain is still kind of racking with and wrestling with these ideas too. You know? And because I think it is such an interesting challenge point, right, where it is like, how do we provide that space for the the more nuanced conversations while acknowledging, again, like, the the rightful roots of anger and progress. And then also understanding that we're seeing conservative responses to the boyhood question or the masculine question, right, that are giving very definitive answers, which is which is typically conservativism's very, you know, one of their superpowers for better or for worse or probably worse. You know, you know, where where we see more on, like, liberal left, you know, they're more likely to talk about abstract ideas. And and, you know, we'll we'll say we need more nuance, but even if it doesn't necessarily enter into a dialogue that way, right, by by actually providing some of that that space for it. So I think you're again, you're you're you're telling an interesting line here of how we can provide more space in that conversation. And I think also the the way that you focus on and, like, we can I think we should can dive into some of these issues too of, like, the the emotional pieces or, like, basically, like, the some of the the architecture of masculinity? Right? That it's on some level, it's gonna sound familiar.

Adam Gamwell [00:21:56]:
Right? And you said some of them before. Like, there is kind of the the steady of strength and, like, the, you know, easily maps onto superhero personas and things like that. But then also, like, you know, some of the other challenges, like, I I appreciated the way that, you're wrestling with early on in the book, the, the not like, never wanting to go into the biological deterministic camp. And, like, there's not really differences. Like, it's it's it's all it's all, like, nurture versus nature. So I'm curious, like, in terms of how boys versus girls are raised and, like, what their differences might be. So I'm curious, like, to talk a little bit about this, like, how your understanding of nature versus nurture has kind of evolved Yeah.

Ruth Whippman [00:22:31]:
Through this project. Well, it's

Adam Gamwell [00:22:32]:
an ongoing question.

Ruth Whippman [00:22:34]:
It's such a interesting question, Liz, because, you know, I have looked at this research. You know, there's this big body of research on nature versus nurture, you know, whether gender differences are, like, hide hardwired or socialized. And the problem is, like, nobody's really looking at this research objectively. Everybody goes into it with an agenda. So whether that's the people reading it or the people conducting it, you know, everyone starts from the starting point. And I think, traditionally, the sort of feminist, approach has been, like, to minimize the biological differences and to say that all the differences are socialized pretty much. And the sort of, opposite approach is that, you know, boys will be boys. That's just the way they are.

Ruth Whippman [00:23:20]:
It's an inevitability, and we just have to sort of work around the way that that boys innately are, and kind of masculinity is this sign of authenticity, and, you know, to to mess with that is, you know, is to sort of mess with boys' essential selves or to try to feminize them or whatever. And I think that in a way, it almost doesn't really matter what the research says because everybody nobody's really looking at it in good faith. I think there is some good evidence to show that there are some, on average, biological differences or some differences that are rooted in biology. There's some very good evidence to show that a lot of it is socialized. I think probably it's a case of there are these small tendencies at birth, which we then, bring with socialization. But I've struggled with it as a mom because, you know, I came to this from the feminist perspective, which is, like, this is all socialized. You know? None of this none of this is innate, and, you know, I'm going to do better. I had all this hubris.

Ruth Whippman [00:24:19]:
I was like, I'm going to raise these sons who are this and who are that, and who won't be into you know? And then, obviously, my sons are all it's changing a little bit now, but they were the most wild, the most physical, the most rambunctious, the most like, everything that people say. You know? And I think I wrote a piece for myself, Stout recently about the whole boy mom conceit, which is, you know, this hashtag that's online and all these women online who who identify as boy moms, and they're like, oh, boys will be boys, you know, and that it's you know? And I always push back on it. I was like, I don't wanna be that person, but then here I am, that person. So I don't know. You know? And I used the title boy mom for my book in this sort of quite tongue in cheek way. You know? I was sort of exploring it rather than sort of identifying with it absolutely. But, yes, there I definitely, at many points, have felt, oh, god. This is just this, like, ancient biological force that I am fighting, and nothing I do makes any difference.

Ruth Whippman [00:25:22]:
And make of that what you will.

Adam Gamwell [00:25:24]:
Yeah. It's it's funny, though, because yeah. It's it's right. It's like it's it's the the the point that data is never neutral, right, and and that, like, numbers don't speak for themselves. And so it's like Yeah.

Ruth Whippman [00:25:33]:
There's one thing to

Adam Gamwell [00:25:33]:
collect data, then there's one thing to interpret it. And then also then how you interpret it for somebody else.

Ruth Whippman [00:25:37]:
It's so true. Right? Yeah. And people will you know, you'll see different groups of researchers taking the exact same data set and coming to completely different conclusions from it. So, yeah, I think everything in that area with a grain of salt. And I think, you know, that for a while, the feminist sort of idea that we have to sort of root all this in socialization, you can see where it came from because this this brain science has been used to oppress women for 100 of years. You know? There's all these ridiculous historical examples of why women couldn't possibly be suited for the workplace or for, you know, anything other than, you know, childbearing throughout history that that they've co opted this data, similarly with race, with all of these things. So this you know, you can see why that, this has come about, but then it can feel you know, I think I've had different relationships with this all along depending on how badly my kids are behaving, honestly. Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:26:41]:
No. I mean, that that that makes perfect sense too where it's like, okay. Sometimes it's it's like lived is then gonna shape a little bit of how we how we, like, experience or interpret something with with that too. But I'm I'm curious to, like, one of the interesting things that, like, also kind of came out of this this, like, back and forth conversation, like, broader but in research and in society too, it is that, like, the the idea that, like, the the boys will be boys kind of, like, you know, biological determinism are are, like, they're just that's the way boys are hardwired. That's the way girls are hardwired. It's interesting that, like, some of the the the social metaphors or language that came out of that, like, that, like, a lot of feminist thought did a really good job of waking us up saying, hey. Wait. Why are we biologically determining saying that women are, like, better for x or men are better for y? But then it's

Ruth Whippman [00:27:27]:
Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:27:27]:
Now kind of okay to be, like, boys are like dogs. Right? And, like but if you said the same thing about girls, you'd be like, no. Like, we don't say that anymore. That's really interesting that

Ruth Whippman [00:27:35]:
Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:27:36]:
Yeah.

Ruth Whippman [00:27:36]:
I think we've, yeah, I think we've moved on the conversation about girls in a way that's been really positive. And so, you know, even if there are some innate differences, we tend to focus on the socialization piece. So when good faith you know, when progressive people talk about girls and math or girls and stem or whatever, they don't say, oh, well, they're innately not as good at boys as doing this stuff. You know? Then it it's not innate. They'll be like, well, they haven't had the chances. They haven't had the opportunities. They've been socialized away from this stuff. But I think people use this very limited language when they or limiting language when they talk about boys at the moment.

Ruth Whippman [00:28:15]:
And even progressives, they'll be like, you know, boys can't sit still. Boys don't like reading. Boys in the classroom. Boy you know? And I think it's so we aren't you know, when we use this very sort of sky's the limit language when we talk about girls, you know, you can be anything you wanna be. You can do whatever you want, and then it's like, but boys will be boys. You know? And I think it's a double edged sword. It sort of enables bad behavior in boys and sort of gives them a free pass, but at the same time, it's so limiting. It's not giving boys a really broad sense of who they can be in the world, you know, or that they could be better or have more interests or do different things.

Ruth Whippman [00:28:55]:
You know?

Adam Gamwell [00:28:56]:
And, I mean, it's it's interesting because it it's like, at what at what point does it start? Right? But, obviously, it's like it's almost like an epigenetic phenomenon, right, that comes from our parents to us to to beyond. You know? But, like, the you know? So I'm kinda curious to to think about this with you as well where it's like as as you're tracing some of these the the the roots of experience, I guess. You know you know, one of the the examples you point out, which something that the first time I heard this, it it really irked me, and and you you you said it for the same reason was, like, when I first heard little guys little boys called Buddy, when I first heard that immediately, so that's the first time I heard that. I was like, that's a weird thing. And, like, my immediate first thought, like, I don't remember those years ago was like Yeah. That they're embarrassed to be sweet to boys. It's like, that was my my literal first thought, and I didn't, like you know? Now Yes. Okay.

Adam Gamwell [00:29:39]:
Good. I feel justified that I thought that, you know, 10 years ago. Yeah. You know?

Ruth Whippman [00:29:44]:
Oh, that's so interesting that you did because I was actually worried about putting that, in the book. I mean, just for context, the the way that came up was, you know, when my first when my son went to kindergarten, you know, there was this, like, male volunteer at the gate on the 1st day, and, like, these 2 little girls were going in in front of him. And he was like, hi, sweetheart, and hi, sweetheart. And then, you know, my son walks through, and he's like, hi, buddy, and, like, gives him a high five. And it was just this whole different tonal register, this whole different stance, this whole different thing. And it's like people don't call little boys sweetheart. You know, he's in kindergarten. He's 5 years old.

Ruth Whippman [00:30:19]:
He is a sweetheart by any definition, but yet he's already tracked into that sort of masculinity system, which is all this kinda, like, defensive, you know, hey, dude and hey, bro and hey, buddy. And, you know, and I you know, I'm glad that you responded that way because I was worried about putting that in there because I think people are often, like, oh, for god's sake, it's such a nothing moment, you know, such a small little moment, but, you know, life is made up of these tiny little moments and these tiny little differences, and they build on each other, and they really build a sense of, like, how a person sees themself in the world and how they feel they have to behave. So in and of itself, it's kind of nothing, but it's part of this whole context. You know? And I said that my other son, actually, literally on the day he was born, the nurse was, like, cleaning him off. And she's like, oh, buddy. You know? And you're like, you don't wanna emasculate? There's, like, a 3 hour old baby or 1 hour old baby or whatever. You know? It's, Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:31:17]:
It is it it is it's just a funny thing. Right? It it's that, like, because, again, it's, like, that's it's a great example where it's not, like, it if it's intended to be a kindness, right, by by the the person that was saying it. Right? But but it's, like, it's funny because you're also a 100% right. You know? And that was, like, also tipped my my anthro antenna. Right? Was when when you're, like, it's these small moments that, like, don't mean that much to anybody, but that, like, over time, those popped up and, like, basically mean this is what it means. This is telling a boy what it means to be masculine or to be to be a man or to be a boy. Yes. You know? And and, like Right.

Ruth Whippman [00:31:49]:
And and I think the reason you know, you said, like, people are embarrassed to talk to boys like that, and I think that's absolutely true. But I think it's also protective because we know that the costs of emasculation are really high for boys. We know how shameful it is for a boy to be seen as girly or feminine or weak, and so we instinctively protect them by, like, not drawing them into you know we say, hey, buddy. For our sakes and for their sakes, you know, it's like a kind it's a kindness, but it does help to build this invisible system of masculinity. And I think we have you know, going back to your earlier question, I think we focus much more on the harms to girls of that because, you know, you can also see how being called sweetheart, you know, and every woman will have some experience of being in a meeting and some guy being like, oh, sweetheart, could you and you're like, oh, god. You know? It's so patronizing, and it sort of excludes women from power. But then the part of it that we don't see is that it kind of excludes boys and men from intimacy and connection and nurturing.

Adam Gamwell [00:32:51]:
Yeah. So let let's actually, let's dive into that point. So I think that that was, like, you know I guess if it's, like, if there's, like, one central kinda thesis idea, I think it's about it it kinda points us in this direction where Yeah. That, you know, if we're if we're, you know, creating a false equivalence of what privilege gives and what doesn't give, like, I think you did a good job of pointing out this idea that actually, while it may ostensibly give some forms of power, it actually does the the worst thing that it does actually. And, like, that's actually worse than giving power is is is this idea of, like, removing the capacity and the offer of in intimacy and and even attachment to oneself and to others, as like a, you know, coded Yes. Way of being. So, I mean, let's and maybe that's not the right word reading, but, like, yeah, I'd love to kinda walk through that idea.

Ruth Whippman [00:33:36]:
Yeah. No. That I think that that's a that's a great reading of it. That's exactly what I found, like, over and over again in a million little buddy sweetheart moments, you know, and big ones, small ones, that masculinity and patriarchy cut boys off from intimacy and emotionality, and it's really harmful in so many different ways. And this is and it's leaving them lonely. It's leaving them isolated. It's leaving them disconnected from their own emotions. It's leaving this sort of mental health crisis amongst boys going very much under the radar because it means that it doesn't even show up in the statistics because when a pollster calls and says to a teenage boy, you know, are you feeling depressed? Are you feeling lonely? They say, no.

Ruth Whippman [00:34:21]:
I'm not because to say yes, I am would be weak. So it's this invisible crisis. And I think there's this sort of circular logic because because we value what men value and we value and we sort of devalue things that are associated with women, it's like we overvalue power and we undervalue connection and intimacy, which means that this problem becomes even more invisible. Men get power, which we think is the most important thing to have, so we consider that to be the privilege. You know, the more power you have, the better off you are without really seeing the lack of intimacy as a real loss. You know, we don't value it enough to even name it

Adam Gamwell [00:35:04]:
as a thing is, like, we're I mean, it's not funny, but like the curious thing there, right, is this idea that, like, we're are seeing this kind of invisible, like, emotional health crisis, mental health crisis. So I get it. It's interesting because it's like we see Yeah. Like Gen Z has been been a positive force in the world in terms of being much more explicit about that. We have to have conversations about mental wellness and, you know, human well-being. Yes. You know, whether it's in the workplace, in school, or how I'm kind of approaching life. And and, like, that's that's a fundamentally important part.

Adam Gamwell [00:35:31]:
But then it's interesting because that's the same generation also that we're seeing a huge drove of of boys kind of run towards this, you know, not running to to incels, but just like the more more conservativism and, like, these kind of reactionary positions around masculinity. And and so it's like it's it's showing us, like it's literally is like the Gen Z is is like the the battleground. I want to say test case for society. I guess we're all we're all we're all lab rats in society, but, you know, in different levels. But but it's it's really interesting, like, a challenge for this generation and obviously for Gen Alpha coming after them. And, you know, we me, elder millennials and, you know, and, like and as everybody because as we work through this idea, like, it's an intergenerational challenge as well as then this idea of, like, who's kind of willing to be at the at the forefront of it. And, like, really I mean, as we're seeing too this idea, right, that so many boys, you know, from from kids coming into adolescence, right, are are confused and and are feeling isolated and left out. And it's like it was it was you know, there's a the really difficult statistic that you pointed to it.

Adam Gamwell [00:36:33]:
I think it said, you know, young boys are 4 times more likely to commit suicide than than girls of their peers. You know? And this is around the idea of disconnection, alienation, and illness. And this is like it you know, to put nerd head on for a second, like, this was like I remember the sociologist Emile Durkheim talked to her up, and he wrote a book on suicide, you know, now a 130, 20 something, 110 years ago. And this is like like, the thesis, though, was, like, why do people, you know, commit suicide in in a social world? And it was, like, primarily through isolate when you feel isolation, like, the more disconnected you are feel from society, the more likely you are than to Yeah. Have suicidal ideation. And this and I I read that subtext in in, like, a lot of the stories that we're seeing here, this this challenge that boys both, you know, again, from, like, seem seemingly well meaning comments of, hey, buddy. You know, give you a high five, into, like, these subtle, pushes to not express emotion. Right? To not be too cuddly.

Ruth Whippman [00:37:30]:
Yes.

Adam Gamwell [00:37:31]:
And then how that filters into, like, you know actually, I'd love to to have you tell the story a bit about, like, how how your, you and your partner were, like, worked with your boys to, like, ask have them ask how their friends are doing. Because even this idea, like, we're thinking about young boy friendship, I thought was a really interesting, conundrum. I hadn't I mean, I've, like, done with my life, like, you know, 35 years ago, and I was like, yeah. That kinda okay. That that, like, tracks a little bit. Like, from the eighties, I kinda remember, you know, having boy friendships that, like, we didn't really ask that. We didn't ask how people were. You know? We were not trained to do that.

Ruth Whippman [00:38:04]:
Yeah. I mean, my, my husband told me it's not actually in the book, but he told me that when and he said it in passing. You know? It wasn't even, like, in the context of a conversation about friendship, but he he told me that his one of his best friends when he was at school, you know, I'm not sure exactly how old, but, you know, maybe 9 or 10. His the best friend's mother died, and my husband didn't even know about it until many years later. You know? They just didn't talk about it, and they talked about, you know, whatever they were doing, their computer games, their their sports, their their things, but not emotions. I mean, that's quite an extreme example, but I say it with my sons. You know? You'll say to them, oh, what's, you know, what's Ezra doing this summer? And they'll be like, I don't know. Or, like you know, I remember this one time when a teacher it was my oldest son, Solly.

Ruth Whippman [00:38:53]:
He, he was used to be really hard on himself, and, I sort of saw this exchange with him and a teacher, and he had, like, not he he was doing some art project, and it hadn't turned out the way he wanted, and he was like, oh, I'm so stupid, and I'm so dumb. And the teacher was like, okay. Well, who's your best friend? And he was like, Ezra. And then the teacher was like, okay. Well, if Ezra was saying these things, you know, what would you say to him to comfort him? And I think the idea was that Solly would be like, oh, I would be so compassionate with Ezra, and then he would be the teacher would come back and say, well, see, you should be more compassionate with yourself. But Solomon was, like, oh, what do you mean? You know, how would I comfort him? What, you know, he just didn't have any frame of reference to, like, what he would say. He'd his view was just like, well, this isn't my job to comfort him. And I say in the book, it was kind of like as if the teacher had said, you know, can you schedule Ezra's dentist appointment or something? You know? It was just, like, that far away from him that, like, this is not my job to do that.

Ruth Whippman [00:39:52]:
And so, you know, when I started noticing that and I think that shows up. You know, there's so many books and movies and stories for girls, which are all about friendship and managing other people's emotions and tracking them and, you know, making sure that they feel alright and comforting them. You know, I see them everywhere for girls. But boys' stories are just about adventure. They're about battles. They're about enemies, not friends. They're about fighting, competition. And so they just don't grow up with this idea that other people's emotions are their responsibility.

Ruth Whippman [00:40:24]:
So my husband actually did a really great job of, like, coaching them and being like, okay. Well, this bad thing has happened to your friend, and so you should ask them about it. And, you know, this is how you ask them, and this is how you check-in. And, you know, and then and then, you know, if they reply like this, and you maybe could respond in this way. And it just sort of breaking it down because I think they just don't have a good model for, you know, for what that's like. And I think, you know, maybe it it's hard to say how much of this is just my kids specifically and how much is boys in general, but I think that cultural forces are really pointing boys in this direction.

Adam Gamwell [00:41:01]:
Yeah. And, like, what what are some I'm I'm curious, like, the some of the ones that you've seen that like, the forces that are doing that. I mean, part of it is, like, again, like, the stories that we're telling, like, is there in in you know, I mean, Iron Man came to mind right away as as, like, as, like, the superhero emblem.

Ruth Whippman [00:41:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. So well, it's like I think it's sort of 2 different, streams. So there's basically what they do get and what they don't get. So on the case of what they don't get, I mean, I remember, and I I wrote about this in the book as well, that there was you know, I saw this magazine in the store with my boys, and it was so clearly aimed at girls. You know, it had this, like, pink sparkly cover and, like, a friendship bracelet giveaway and, you know, all of these things. And then there was a story in this magazine, and it was about this, girl, and she'd been invited to these 2 birthday parties that were happening at the same time. And so she took it upon herself to perform this, like, crazy feat of emotional labor where she would, like, go between the two parties and pretend that she was a guest at both and not tell the people.

Ruth Whippman [00:42:04]:
And she'd go to, like, the games at 1 and then the games at the other and then the cake at 1 and the cake at the other. Also, she didn't let down one of her friends. And this like, growing up as a girl, you know, this story was just, like, everywhere for me growing up, this kind of story, which is just about friendship. The friendship is, like, driving the narrative, other people's feelings in a human drama. And I was like, my boys have never been given a story like that, and no story like that will ever find its way into their world unless I specifically make an effort to give it to them. And if I do, it will always have girls as characters. It will never have a boy taking on that role emotionally ever. So that's sort of what's absent, but then what is in their stories is that, you know, you just it's story after story of battles and fighting and competition.

Ruth Whippman [00:42:56]:
So it's always, like, 2 men or 2 sort of male nonhuman creatures in combat against each other. 1 wins and is a hero. The other one loses and is either a villain or or dies, you know, or is just a loser or, like, going out on action and adventure and story in that way. And there's nothing wrong with these stories. It's just that they have this completely steady diet of them. So they start to see human interaction as this sort of essentially competitive, combative endeavor. And when I was interviewing boys, that was something that came up over and over and over again that they were, like they were always felt that they were in kind of in competition with their friends, you know, that male interactions were just this endless kind of, like, who's the best, who's the strongest, who can be the funniest, who's saying the you know? And it was not vulnerable or emotional at all.

Adam Gamwell [00:43:49]:
And it it's like it's it's an interesting piece too because that's also the the kind of thing. I I I taught university for for a number of years back, like, on and off. I I don't I don't teach now, but, like, I remember, you know, when I first started teaching, I was I was much closer to the generation in age. And then it's as I got older, but they stayed the same age from the Mitch McConnell, he quote oddly enough there, from Dazed and Confused. But, like but this this idea that, you know, I found my culture references be they became more split in terms of, like, you know, you know, musicians folks are talking about and, like, how they're they're kinda thinking and acting. And, like Yeah. And then so, basically, like, also meme and conversation, like, started coming in more and more intensely in ways that I couldn't participate in because I just was not in in youth meme culture anymore. I had to accept that I was old.

Adam Gamwell [00:44:31]:
But, you know, but this idea is an interesting point of, like, how how we see boys interact. Right? Whether they're, you know, you know, school age, college age, adolescent's age. And and and, like, just thinking about that idea. Right? This yeah. The how something that on even on the surface can seem more like joking, you know, like, memes, like but it can also have this competitive edge to it. Right? So, like, something that that sometimes parents are we may not even realize that there's a competitiveness of the joke of how can that can I be the funniest? Right?

Ruth Whippman [00:44:58]:
Absolutely. And I think when you see groups of girls and women laughing together, it's like a shared experience of, like, laughter and connection. And when you see boys and men laughing together, it is a kind of one upmanship in it. And it's not necessarily that one is better and one is worse. It's just that they are these 2 quite distinct patterns. And I think the boys that I was talking to, a lot of them found it pretty stressful. You know, they found this sort of constant interaction like this, like, quite stressful. They wanted a sort of deeper emotional connection or they wanted to just kinda let their guard down and just be, but they felt unable to do that.

Ruth Whippman [00:45:35]:
And that expression, you know, you can never let your guard down, I had that expression. It was funny, like, from several kids who had really different, like, social backgrounds use the same phrase to me about different things. 1 of them was talking about kind of banter in, you know, in a social situation like you're describing, like, who's the funniest, and it's this, like, endless comedy bit. And, you know, you can never sort of let your guard down because then everyone will pile onto you, and you'll be the the butt of the joke. And then another guy, he was this, like, black boy from this very rough neighborhood of East Oakland, talking about you can never let your guard down in terms of masculinity. You know? You can never show fear or vulnerability because you'll be physically attacked. But it was sort of the same emotional violence to it, you know, even though we're talking about quite different things. And, you know, and I had that same phrase everywhere.

Ruth Whippman [00:46:28]:
And I think a lot of the boys that I spoke to, if they did wanna have that kind of emotional connection, they either got it from their girlfriends or from female friends. You know, they just felt like they could never change those patterns with other boys.

Adam Gamwell [00:46:40]:
That's interesting too that that, you know, we kinda see the same thing happening kind of, you know, cross culturally, cross group wise. And and then they tell us something important too. And this is you know? Yeah. Yeah. And and how we've seen gender scholars and folks, you know, Sherry Ortner, anthropology, and other folks have written that, like, typically also we see in, like, in even cross cultural examples too. Like, there's always this sometimes it's often kind of, like, stated, but it can be unspoken too of this that idea that, like, masculinity is something that has to be made, and it can be lost. Right? And we we see people talk talk about the idea that you can leave your man card going

Ruth Whippman [00:47:11]:
on. Right? Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [00:47:12]:
As this idea of something that I said is something wrong. Yes. It's oops. You know?

Ruth Whippman [00:47:16]:
Yeah. It's precarious, and you constantly have to prove it and reprove it and reprove it. You're never it's never this settled question. It's just, you know, it's always this precarious state. And I think that the boys I spoke to, they didn't quite articulate it in those terms, but their sort of feelings that they were talking about really spoke to that. And I think the thing about masculinity, you know, you hear gender scholars talking about multiple masculinities and how it's different across cultures. But what was really striking to me actually was, like, yes, there are variations, but, like, really, the similarities were so much more striking to me. You know? You never see a culture where masculinity is something that you'd just be like, woah.

Ruth Whippman [00:47:55]:
That's completely different that I'd never heard of that before, and actually, masculinity is expressed through emotional vulnerability or through you know, it's always defined in opposition to femininity. It's always about not being a woman, not being gay, you know, and so I think people know the rules. You know? You it might slightly they hurry across cultures, but I think everyone everyone knows sort of knows it when they see it.

Adam Gamwell [00:48:21]:
And that that that's exactly right. And the the kind of interesting part there too that, like, it's it's often you know, and this is, you know, feminism's correct critique, right, that it's, like, often, like, the masculine has been the norm, which means it doesn't get talked about even though you know what it is. Right? Not that that's why you don't talk about it because you know what it is. Yes. The unspoken norm. Right? Why we have to critique.

Ruth Whippman [00:48:40]:
Right. Exactly. It's the default.

Adam Gamwell [00:48:42]:
You know, I I think there's an issue with that too. And, like, I, feel like conversationally, we have to go back to incels just because we haven't we we we we mentioned them up top of it that that kind of went away from them for a little while. But, like, the listeners are probably like I

Ruth Whippman [00:48:54]:
hear you. Yeah. Yes. Sorry.

Adam Gamwell [00:48:56]:
Not not yet.

Ruth Whippman [00:48:56]:
Gotta get back.

Adam Gamwell [00:48:57]:
It's like

Ruth Whippman [00:48:58]:
What about the egg cells?

Adam Gamwell [00:48:59]:
You know?

Ruth Whippman [00:49:00]:
Those are wild. Right?

Adam Gamwell [00:49:00]:
So I think, like, you know, because I wanna also come talk about this, the emotion of vulnerability part and, like, you know, the things that we've seen so far of, like, we there's, you know, oftentimes and and we have slowly socialized boys away from emotional expression, you know, in in in you know, we said ultimately one of the problems there is intimacy, loss of intimacy. And the other side of it is, like, you can't ever let your guard down to to that. I think you Gamwell said point there. So, again, to me, it was a interesting surprise is, like, the the, like, the the latter two parts of the book. You you know, you you are talking with incels then go to a very un like, poorly titled rape con, which is a huge, like, shocking. I was like I was like, what is what is this chapter even gonna be about? Like, I'm I'm not sure if I wanna go here. But, but it actually it was a it was a surprising visit. You know? I imagine I've end up here you go.

Adam Gamwell [00:49:46]:
And so Yes. Like but I guess I wanna think about, like so, narratively, why are we going there? Like and so I think we're we're kind of setting that that piece up here with the the emotional limitation or stunting question, I think, is interesting. But then, let's go there. Then they wanna, like, kinda talk about what happens in those chapters is in, like, both the surprise and, like, then the kind of stories that you gathered from those spaces.

Ruth Whippman [00:50:06]:
Yeah. So, I mean, I guess the incels won first. So that was, you know, I talked a little bit about why I was interested in, incels. You know, they were great fear of mine, and I think the thing about incels is that they are a very extreme manifestation of a lot of mainstream trends that are going on in boy culture at the moment. So, you know, I had sort of thought of them as being these kind of complete fringe freak aberrations. And, generally, I'm not as interested in freaks. You know? I I am more interested in what people on the fringes tell us about the mainstream, if that makes sense. And I think Yeah.

Ruth Whippman [00:50:50]:
Incels, really speak to a lot of trends in boy culture. This loneliness, this socialization, this decline in sex, you know, which is something that's supported by a lot of data, this kind of super online thing. And these boys who are in relationship with these systems of masculinity and this constant feeling of failure. You know? So this is what the incels so the incels have this philosophy called the black pill where they believe that, like, masculinity is a hierarchy. And, like, at the top, there's these people called the chads, and they've kind of become a Internet meme in general. But the chads are like these good looking, masculine, sex sexually successful men, and then there's this kind of beta males below them. And then right at the bottom are the incels. You know, they've just kind of given up.

Ruth Whippman [00:51:36]:
They're they're either they're short, they're ugly. They're overweight. They're, you know, they can't get laid. They can't get a girlfriend. And so they've just kind of and so I think what sort of differentiates the incels from the rest of the kind of masculinity spaces is that there's most of the manosphere kind of gives men this hope. It's just like, you can be an alpha male. There's this thing called an alpha male, and if you just do all these things that I tell you, then you can be 1. So it's sort of selling this false promise in a way, whereas the in sales have just kind of given up.

Ruth Whippman [00:52:10]:
They have lost all hope. They're never gonna rise to the top. They they believe it's like this sort of rigid hopelessness that they believe that, you know, all of this is predetermined by genetics. They're never gonna be able to participate in these systems of masculinity. And so in a way, it's weirdly liberating for them. So they so what I found was when I spent time in all these incel spaces on their message boards and talking to them was that they were the only boys that I came across who really felt able to share their emotions with other men. They're just like, we're never gonna be masculine. We're never gonna rise to the top.

Ruth Whippman [00:52:47]:
We're so emasculated that we're just going to be vulnerable and honest. And in our spaces, there's some terrible, hateful, disgusting, awful stuff, misogynistic, racist, anti Semitic, everything. But there's also this real sense of, like, tenderness and brotherhood and emotionality, which it was so weird to me because I was like, you know, I thought I would see that in some kind of progressive therapy group or something, but, like, here it was right in, like, the heart of toxic masculinity central, you know, the incel movement. So so that was really interesting. And I spoke I went really quite in-depth with a couple of incels. I talked to a few more that did weren't in the book, but I sort of featured these 2 guys. One of whom was very sweet, actually, and he was just this very vulnerable person who'd had, you know, a very difficult and traumatic childhood. One of the the other one was, like, harder to like.

Ruth Whippman [00:53:40]:
He was really very misogynistic and unpleasant, but, again, was just somebody who was dealing with a lot of trauma. And I think those 2 in a in a way, what was so scary talking to those guys was that what was really striking was not so much the differences between them and all the kind of regular boys that I interviewed, but more the similarities, that they were all actually talking about similar things to do with loneliness and masculinity and emasculation and connection and all of you know, they were all coming up with the same things. The incels were more extreme, but they were kind of like the logical conclusion in a way. So that, you know, that was all very interesting. And I think, again, had I stuck with this sort of very rigid, don't humanize these people, I think I would have missed a lot. You know? Because I think it's very easy to say, yes. These people are terrible, and in many ways, they are, but, you know, why? How did they get there? What are they missing? How can we change it? You know? How can we give them what they need elsewhere outside of the manosphere?

Adam Gamwell [00:54:45]:
Well, it's like that question that we we offer or we're, like, we'll find people say, like, well, a baby's not born racist. It's like, yes. That's true. Yeah. But then also, like, then what would influence someone to become that way? Right? And so it is an interesting question of, like, we can

Ruth Whippman [00:54:57]:
Right.

Adam Gamwell [00:54:58]:
Disagree with your position and not like a lot of the other things that you're saying, but then it's like, is there a emotionally vulnerable or traumatized human at the core of that? Probably.

Ruth Whippman [00:55:07]:
Yes. Right. And I think And You know, as progressives or as a progressive, I think, in general, we grew up thinking, you know, look for the causes. Look at the person. Look at the whole person. You know? Try to understand the systems that are at play and not just sort of condemn the individual, which I think, you know, there's this authoritarian streak on the left, which is just like Anthro these guys in jail and and never talk to them and never find out why, you know, which sort of mirrors this authoritarian streak on the right in other ways, which I don't think is helpful for anyone.

Adam Gamwell [00:55:41]:
It highlights the challenge there, right, where it's like that as much as, you know, if we're on whatever side of the political spectrum or arena that we're we find ourselves on, it's like we we tend to ascribe, like, all the negatives to the other Yes. And not recognize when we ourselves might take on actually some of those qualities that we we are aiming to either expunge or, you know, at least call out. And this is not a, like, saying gotcha. It's not a gotcha point, but it's more just, like, realizing that it's messy. Right? It's it's, like, it's a lot of gray area, and there's a lot of nastiness as part of that, but it's, like, it's gray. Yes. You know? Absolutely. And, like, how we approach that, it's it's not there's no there's no one to your point, there's no one way to do it.

Adam Gamwell [00:56:17]:
There's no one way to raise a child. There's no one way to say this is the actual fix it by doing this specific thing.

Ruth Whippman [00:56:21]:
Exactly.

Adam Gamwell [00:56:22]:
You know, these 5 steps. Anvi, just real quick, are we are we okay on time? I know we're a little over the hour. You find it chat for a

Ruth Whippman [00:56:27]:
little more or

Adam Gamwell [00:56:29]:
okay. Cool. So so, like, let's talk a little bit then also about the the other Yes. Also really interesting, but challenge is faced, you know, like, of going to the the places, I think, is the actual name of this conference. Right?

Ruth Whippman [00:56:39]:
Yeah. So I wanna say this, which is just to anybody listening, this is an extremely fraught and difficult conversation, and I think it's very hard to capture in one answer. And I urge people to read the actual book because I think it's very easy to misinterpret people's words when they talk about this, and I think this is the chapter that I've been most nervous about, in terms of, you know, dealing with a very, very difficult issue, which is so I went and it was one of the first things I reported, actually, when I was started research for the book. It was a conference for boys and their families, and these are boys that had been accused of campus sexual assault, so who had been through and, usually, it's the title 9 system in the university that handles this. So it, you know, a boy will be someone will accuse a boy of sexually assaulting them at college, and it will go through this sort of it's a system that kind of mirrors the court system, where they are essentially put on trial for this act, and then they're found either responsible or not responsible, which is, like, guilty or not guilty. And there are huge consequences, obviously, to being found responsible for sexual assault on campus. And so there was this conference that was sort of representing or sort of for a support group for these boys and their families. And I went to report on it, and I went very much in the spirit of, I'm a feminist.

Ruth Whippman [00:58:12]:
I think there's been this terrible you know? I have, lived through the Me Too movement. I have seen this, like, epidemic of sort of sexual harassment and sexual violence and how it shows up and how it's, you know, has been condoned for so many years and how women have not been listened to and how women have been disbelieved and gaslighted and all the rest of it. So I went to this conference very much in the spirit of just assuming, Gamwell, obviously, these guys are guilty. Believe women. And why are their mothers defending them? And I sort of was almost going in a kind of anthropological way to see, you know, what is it about a mother that would make her defend her rapist son? You know? How can I learn to be a mother that wouldn't do that? You know, the I had those kinds of feelings. And I had my certainties so profoundly challenged by that experience in so many complex ways. You know, I went in very sure and I came out extremely unsure. I think there's quite a lot of evidence that there has been quite a serious miscarriage of justice in the title 9 system, and many boys have gone through a process where they've been found responsible for sexual assault in their university system and have challenged it through the courts, and have won lawsuits against their universities.

Ruth Whippman [00:59:44]:
I think there was this big push post me to well, well, actually, prior to me too, but sort of at the beginning of that culture and and more recently to, for universities to listen to women, to take sexual assault seriously, and I think there has been a huge overcorrection, and there's lots of evidence to back this up. And I think it's a very subtle and nuanced point, and I really do not want this to turn into a conversation about, oh, women lie and they're making up all these sexual assaults and, you know, it's not real. And to go back the other way, this is not what I want. I do not want this to be corrupted into that discussion. But, I think it's there's been a real problem with due process in these things, and I think that this definition of what can be considered as sexual assault has expanded beyond recognition. I think several cultural forces have changed to make this a much, much more complex issue than than I believed it was, and I heard some devastating stories there.

Adam Gamwell [01:00:50]:
Yeah. It was it was definitely, one of the more challenging, like, sets of ideas to to work through. But but I so I will say, I mean, you know, folks have you know, if you have not read the book, I mean, I highly recommend you, especially because, like, this yes. These last two chapters are really there there's there's a

Ruth Whippman [01:01:05]:
lot there. There's a lot of density.

Adam Gamwell [01:01:06]:
And so it's, like, tricky to talk through them, like, you know, in a in a podcast. So, don't don't misconstrue kind of how we're talking about this in case we're, like, saying, hey. Are you on the side of these families? Like, that that's not the point. But the but the it's interesting how you wrestle with these these ideas that, like, there's, you know, individuals that have stories that, you know, they're then retelling and there has been there's been legal cases against, and then, you know, it is one of these challenges too because, like, it does then it, like, brushes up against all of Progressive's feelings of, like, hey. No. You know, we believe women. Like, this is this is an epidemic that's been going on forever.

Ruth Whippman [01:01:39]:
Yes.

Adam Gamwell [01:01:40]:
And then at the same time, then talking with these families in, like you know, I felt myself asking to him, like, why would these if if they're like, it's, like, first, I'm, like, trying to rationalize. Okay. So if they're if they're guilty, why would they come to these conferences with their families to, like, you know, say they were innocent? Like Yeah. And, like, just even the fact that this exists is a really interesting space in terms of, like, you know, a a support group for

Ruth Whippman [01:02:01]:
Yeah.

Adam Gamwell [01:02:02]:
The the these these these families. And, like and I don't know. It's just interesting interesting back and forth of, like, how do we like, I guess, the bigger point, I guess, we can think about too here is, like, it shows, like, how how hard it is to have these conversations and, like, how that like, thinking about this in general, like, is immediately hard to talk about. Right? Because it's kinda like, I don't wanna say the wrong thing, which is also this actually echoes the for one of the the other main problem themes, right, is that there are things that we're not supposed to say or not supposed to talk about. And that sounds like a conservative talking part, but that's not what I'm saying here. But it's just like there is this idea, right, that there's a concern I'm going to step out of land mine I didn't see.

Ruth Whippman [01:02:36]:
Yes. Right. A 100%. And I say

Adam Gamwell [01:02:38]:
And that can, like, get me thrown out. And in either way, it can get me thrown out, like, on either side of the aisle Yes. Which is the challenge part. And and, like, and, like, this is a a a great example, like, going through this exploration and talking with these families and hearing them. And even in even talking with incels too in terms of, like, if we're minimally providing space for them to tell their story, what is what do we see? Right? And, you know, how we can traverse and navigate that, like, we see it's it's become so tense that, like, you know, this is the polarization problem. Right? That, like, we we kind of difficult people to have these kinds of conversations around, very tense issues, you know, for legit reasons. But it's interesting because then, like, this is all again, you know, to remind us that we're in this conversation about, like, how we raise boys. Yes.

Adam Gamwell [01:03:22]:
Right? And what does masculinity mean? And what does it do to us and how we Yes. Enact with ourselves in in in the world? And, like, and how does, again, both men and women and boys and girls act around one another?

Ruth Whippman [01:03:33]:
Yes.

Adam Gamwell [01:03:33]:
And how can and, like, how can we talk about that? Yeah.

Ruth Whippman [01:03:36]:
Absolutely. And I think also this is very much in the context of boys feeling extremely frustrated with the mainstream conversations that are on offer about these issues. And so I think if you say to a boy, look. We're just shutting down this conversation and, you know, that they will get the caricatured version of this. They will get the, well, women lie about sexual assault and, you know, the whole thing's nonsense. And unless we can have a really nuanced conversation where we actually acknowledge that there are problems with due process at the moment and some of these things that they're seeing are real, maybe not through within the lens that they're seeing them. You know? But their their own concerns are not completely founded on nothing. But I think if we can have that conversation in a nuanced and thoughtful way, then I think that's how we draw boys in.

Ruth Whippman [01:04:29]:
You know, I think to just shut them down and say, look. This is just not it doesn't exist. Shut up. It's not helpful.

Adam Gamwell [01:04:36]:
Yeah. I think, like, you know, as as we kind of bring a lot of these pieces full circle to it, and we think about, like, you know, the one thing that I think we'd all love is, you know, real. And if you if you were doing that, then we'd have a different conversation. Like, you know, like, here's my 5 step process. But but I think but there are some truths. Right? There are some truths that I think we can take away from Yes. For a lot of this. Right? And and, you know, so let's walk through what some of those are like because it's this is not one of those, like, okay.

Ruth Whippman [01:05:11]:
Yeah. That's a totally different now. Like Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No.

Ruth Whippman [01:05:14]:
I think there are really hopeful messages that you can draw from all this. And I think they are as you say, they do center around nurturing and intimacy and connection. So I think right from birth, you know, we didn't really talk about this, but right from birth, boys receive less care and nurturing and positive touch, and less responsive care than girls do. And so this is something that starts from birth. And, actually, there is quite you know, when you talk about gender differences, there's a lot of good evidence that boys' brains are actually more immature at birth than girls' brains, and so they're actually more vulnerable, and they need more care and more attachment. So there's this double whammy that they they need more, and they get less. So I think that is a huge thing that we can correct for, that I think people perceive boys right from boyhood as being angry and masculine and all of these qualities which we, when a baby girl's behaving that way, we sort of see her as being sad and in need of nurture. So I think one big thing is, like, early attachment, early, nurture, early care is a huge thing that can do differently, and that can start at any time.

Ruth Whippman [01:06:21]:
I mean, I say early, but, you know, these these patterns go on all the way through childhood. The buddy sweetheart thing is, like, the boy is our buddy or, like you know, we we we expect him to toughen up, and we don't pile on the nurture, the positive touch, the affection, the listening, the empathy. And we learn those skills of empathy from being cared for. We learn skills of care and nurturing from having that done to us. So I think, you know and he's got a baby boy coming along. I think we need to correct for it. Like, we really need to think. You know? We need to see boys as our sweethearts, not just our buddies.

Ruth Whippman [01:06:58]:
You know? We need to give them that kind of care. We need to talk to them more about emotions and social things than than girls need that. Girls will get that from the culture anyway. I mean, they need it too, but it's like you know? And the whole thing about boys will be boys is just like, this is what they like, so give them more of what, you know, give them more of what they're actually like. But I say the opposite, which is, like, even if there is some biological reason that they are more like this than girls or not as good at those skills or not as empathetic or not as nurturing, I'm not just saying that that's true. But even if it is true, our response to that should not be like, okay. Well, just let them, like, fight each other to death. The response should be, okay.

Ruth Whippman [01:07:38]:
Well, let's give them more of that stuff. You know? Let's expose them to more of these things, expose them to stories of friendship and connection and love and intimacy. Ideally, between boys, you know, we can find them, please, whoever is a children's book writer, please write the stories about boys' friendships. I, you know, I'll buy them, and I think many others will too. You know? So what they watch, what they read. You know? And it's not about taking stuff away from them. It's about adding stuff in, I think, you know, in terms of their toys, in terms of the kinds of games you play, in terms of the kinds of things you point out in the world, you know, how you talk about emotions, You know? So I think it's this those kind of feminine coded things I think we need to give to boys, you know, and to not see them as emasculating. I think we've gotta stop expecting these kind of masculine things from boys.

Ruth Whippman [01:08:28]:
If that's the way they wanna be, great. I'm not saying about policing them in the other direction either, but I think when we set that up as a as an expectation you know, I always talk about this sort of positive masculinity. People that's been the framing for the conversation. Like, how can we talk about positive masculinity or healthy masculinity, but, you know, which is sort of a start, but it's it's also just kind of reinforcing the idea that masculinity itself is, like, nonnegotiable. You know? It needs to be some kind of masculinity or else, You know? We can't. So, you know, just sort of, freeing them from that paradigm, I think. Talking to boys about emotions, prioritizing, in person connection. I think screens, we haven't really talked about that, but that's a big thing that's affecting.

Ruth Whippman [01:09:13]:
You know, boys are

Adam Gamwell [01:09:14]:
spending screen too ironically.

Ruth Whippman [01:09:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, boys are spending 7 hours more a week on screens than girls are.

Adam Gamwell [01:09:22]:
To, like

Ruth Whippman [01:09:23]:
Yeah. Right now playing video games mostly, and it is taking away from in person social time. Boys are spending much less time socialising in person than girls are, about 5 hours less a week than same age girls. And so it's about prioritizing in person social time and, you know, coaching boys through those those things. And there are lots of people doing great work in this field, you know, with boys therapy groups and social groups and all the rest of it, But just sort of bringing it into the home and being aware, you know, I think it's just sort of naming the problem is part of the you know, is the first step. I talk in the book about how little girls have developed these great, like, detectors, you know, for spotting sexism. And you see you know, every sort of 5th grade girl can be like, that's sexist. That's sexist.

Ruth Whippman [01:10:15]:
But I think boys don't have the vocabulary to describe or the social permission to sort of describe the ways that patriarchy affects them. So I think it's just about pointing these things out and giving them naming the problem, giving them the space to talk about it.

Adam Gamwell [01:10:29]:
Yeah. No. I think that that's right on. And, and it's it's so important, right, to to kind of give that social permission. Right? Yeah. To to be able to have those kinds of conversations and provide those those spaces. And and remember, it's like in the same way that, like, and I know I keep harping on the buddy thing, right? But it's like the way that buddy is not designed to be, like mean or, you know, have a negative impact. It's it's the same way we have to kind of think about, okay, well, what are we choosing to say to boys? How are we choosing to to kind of socialize them? Yeah.

Ruth Whippman [01:10:59]:
Right. And it says subtle invisible things that I think, you know, they're the hardest to to change.

Adam Gamwell [01:11:06]:
Yeah. You know, and they're the ones they're the ones that touch the nerve when you say it. Someone's like, hey, wait. Hey, you can't you can't measure that. And it's like, well, that's

Ruth Whippman [01:11:13]:
what we actually have

Adam Gamwell [01:11:14]:
to mess with. Exactly. You know,

Ruth Whippman [01:11:15]:
when he asked and he

Adam Gamwell [01:11:16]:
asked a question. Yeah. That's true. I'm curious, like, so so, obviously so so so Boy Mom is is just coming out at the time we're recording this. Yeah. You know, have you set your sights on where you might explore next? Is is there, like, a a sequel? Is there just, like, you know, a research project? Like, you've gone from anxiety to to

Ruth Whippman [01:11:34]:
to to boys. Yes. To motherhood. I don't. Well, I'm I'm working on a fiction a fiction project at the moment. Who knows whether that will ever see the light of day, but, yeah, I wanted to sort of delve into something that was made up, I think. Had enough of the real world for a minute. But, yeah, I'm sure I'm alright with more nonfiction.

Ruth Whippman [01:11:52]:
I don't have a a specific project that in mind, but, yeah, I'm hoping to where I kinda

Adam Gamwell [01:11:59]:
That's all good. Yeah. Because, I mean, there's there's a lot here too right now that that needs to be unpacked. And and, I mean, even so far just like the the small point that, your your sub stacks are get a ton of engagement in terms of conversations back and forth. So it's like you definitely you definitely hit on something that that people are are trying to figure out and wrestle with. So it's like that's it it's a good sign. I imagine it's a challenge, but it's it's a good sign to to have that kind of back and forth.

Ruth Whippman [01:12:19]:
Yeah. I wanna have these conversations with people as long as they're civil. You know? I really wanna talk to people and, you know, have people, and I love Substack because it gives you this chance to engage in a way that's a bit more, you know, a bit more nuanced than Toyota or whatever. You got a bit more space.

Adam Gamwell [01:12:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's 100%. Adam. Awesome. Ruth, I just want to say thank you so much for joining me on the pod. This has been it's been a great conversation. Again, I really enjoyed the book.

Adam Gamwell [01:12:42]:
I'm excited to get it in the hands of listeners and watchers.

Ruth Whippman [01:12:45]:
Thank you so much. It's been so great talking with you.

Adam Gamwell [01:12:48]:
Thank you.

Ruth Whippman [01:12:48]:
Thank you. Thank you. And that wraps

Adam Gamwell [01:12:50]:
our deep dive into the nuances of modern masculinity, boyhood, and parenting with journalist Ruth Whitman. A huge thank you to Ruth for joining me on the podcast today. Now it's clear that navigating boyhood in a rapidly changing society is layered with both challenges and opportunities for growth.

Ruth Whippman [01:13:04]:
And I hope we can

Adam Gamwell [01:13:04]:
carry forward this dialogue, nurturing spaces for vulnerability, connection, and a broader understanding of masculinity. And I'm curious, how did you engage with the boys and young men in your life to help foster a culture of empathy, understanding, and connection? Share your stories and thoughts with us on social media or over email. I'm always open and excited to hear from you. And remember, by engaging, you're not just contributing to an important conversation, but also shaping the collective understanding of masculinity for the better. And if you're looking to delve deeper into Ruth's work, you can check out her book Boy Mom, which is available at the TAL bookstore. And just remember, shopping there supports Ruth, supports independent bookstores, and it supports this podcast. So it's a win win win. Thank you once again for always tuning in.

Adam Gamwell [01:13:41]:
And thank you again for tuning in to This Anthro Life. It's always a pleasure to be here with you. I'm Adam Gamwell. And until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep listening beyond the surface.