Polyamory, Fidelity, and the Transforming Landscape of Sexual Norms With Leanne Wolfe

Adam  00:00

Welcome to this Anthro Life. I'm your host Adam again. Well, today we're exploring the unexpected intersections of love anthropology in the raw data of our desires with Dr. Leanna Wolfe. We'll be diving into sexuality, societal norms and the broad spectrum of human relationships. Dr. Wolf has navigated the complex dynamics of polyamory, fidelity and the evolving landscape of sexual norms with the precision of an academic in the curiosity of a lifelong learner. From the radical revelations of a 177 Lovers memoir that we'll be talking about, to the critical examination of sexual tourism. Dr. Wolfe's journey challenges the very fabric of societal taboos and unlocks a dialogue on the essence of human connection. So stay tuned as we delve into a conversation that is intellectually rich, as it is personally revealing right here on the Sandra life where Curiosity knows no bounds, and every question leads to new adventure with a dive in intriguing title, you know, from your memoir, and your exploration, you know, 177 lovers, I think is a great place just to kind of start give us a framework there in terms of that, the idea of there being the title itself is offering some challenge to kind of, you know, quote, unquote, traditional norms of sexuality, sexual exploration, and, you know, being a full human on some level. So, I would love to kind of start with just this idea around that around the title in so what we'll get your thinking about, this is the way that you wanted to kind of frame the outset, as folks came into this work.

Leanne Wolfe  01:19

Well, initially, the book was just my life as a sex researcher. And it was okay. And then I thought there might be a subtitle after that. But then something really interesting happened to me, I've retired from being a university professor, where I tried to wrangle my students interests off of their phones and onto my lectures. And having had a really long career of teaching, the, that current wave of students were extremely frustrating because they had the attention span of a flee. And I decided I'd be better off, not teaching and doing other things. And so I retired and joined a daytime writing group. And it turned out that the folks in this group, were a hair older than me and had come of age very differently than I had, I came of age in the thick of second wave feminism and the sexual revolution in the Bay Area. And it was extremely normal to have more than one partner when you were dating. And even if you were sort of going with somebody, it was still acceptable to try out other people. And we were in a unique moment, in which Roe versus Wade had become the law of the land. So I always had abortion backup, birth control was free, or cheap, or nonetheless, easily available. And aids had not yet hit the screen. So I go to parties and meet someone, take them home, try them out. See if it was a fit, I always thought it might be a fit. And then when I traveled, I did, I guess adventure travel in terms of sex. So what by the time I was joining this writing group, I, you know, figured I'd had in quite a bit well over 100 lovers, because I had been basically sexually active for, you know, close to 50 years. And, you know, if you even think of just having dating and being single and meeting three or four people a year, and deciding to try them out, or consummated or whatever, you could easily rack up 200 lovers. So in my estimation, it wasn't exactly a high number. It was just an accurate number. But what turned out in this group is several the folks in the group had married their high school sweethearts, another one had been in arranged marriage, and so they had never lived the life that I'd lived. And when I've spoken to folks who are my contemporaries, they would confirm that their number, isn't that different from the number I claimed, and I just made up 177 because it sounded accurate, and I liked the number. And, you know, it's been really interesting. Having that as my title. My publisher absolutely loved it. They never challenged it for a second, even though they published it as an anthropology textbook. And some folks do roll their eyes and think that I've just been betting everybody around which, you know, when you just think of some simple statistics, it's not

Adam  04:57

at all true. Yeah, that's fair and It kind of shows on the one hand, like, where people's minds like won't let them go, they won't, they won't, they won't think beyond, you know, like a number that means something is the value judgment, right, versus just kind of a fact, you know, to your point, you know, it's just like this is this is an accurate number. And I get that interesting. Yeah. No judgments behind that, right, or, like values behind that, I think, yeah.

Leanne Wolfe  05:21

And it's interesting, the values that that Kindles and people, when I did some statistics on numbers of partners for some of my doctoral training and research, because I did a doctorate in sexology, after I had an in an anthropology graduate degree, we found that folks who had been part of some kind of alternative lifestyle, like swinging or polyamory might have like 10 to 15 or 20 lifetime partners. And it's only really the sex workers who have 1000s of partners, or people that they've had sexual contact with. And the and it was really interesting when I was studying polyamory, and I asked folks, how many partners that had the last year? Typically, their answer was two, which was much less than single people who are dating and trying each other out. That is interesting. Yeah. So numbers need to be informed to make any sense at all. Right?

Adam  06:28

I mean, Spoken like a true anthropologist here, right? Because this data and numbers don't say anything by themselves, right? It's like what we do with them and how we interpret it. Oh,

Leanne Wolfe  06:35

no, you really need to look at context. And my story is very context based. And when we put it like when Rowman and Littlefield bought my book, it didn't have it had context woven in it, but it didn't have all the context an anthropology book could have. And I spent probably another six to eight months, doing a dissertations worth of research gender generating more context. Yeah, I believe in historical context, cross cultural context, political context, sex, illogical context. It, it is not just a story and my story, you know, is, to some extent, extraordinary and to some extent, average. And that's because I'm an anthropologist, and I can see, you know, hey, you know, what I did is not that different than other folks like me, the main maybe the only difference is that I kept doing it. That's,

Adam  07:42

that's a good, that's a good point. All right. Yeah. And I think because you found a field and an area of interest that is, like, fun. And also, you know, helpful to spend a lifetime getting to know, right, versus just being a one off project, or even kind of one dissertation project to, which I think says something about

Leanne Wolfe  07:58

a life project. Yeah.

Adam  08:00

No, I think I think it's great. It's one thing I mean, I'd love to kind of, to dive into there's a ton of really interesting areas in the book and across your story, I think one thing that may be familiar to a lot of folks, right is, as you kind of began your story to that there's, I don't wanna say typical, but, you know, you heterosexual parents, couples that had this interesting myth, right, that that mom was a virgin before, before they had you. And and, you know, obviously, as you came of age, you know, you to tell the story of that you found that that wasn't the case. And I know many of us that have been told that kind of story here in the United States. And so I'm curious, you know, to kind of think about that with you and get your perspective there. Do you find that whether through your research or, you know, through your counseling work today, that is this a story that hangs with people, and there's a moment disconnect or confusion as they kind of think about, I was told one sort of story from my family upbringing, when I was, you know, either coming of age, and then as an adult found out, there was a different story that actually took place. I'm curious, like, how common that kind of that kind of narrative is, or if you see that a lot, and then like, how that kind of shapes how we might approach sexuality as our as our selves, right. When you get to when you realize that our progenitors in our origin stories don't quite line up, you know, with with reality.

Leanne Wolfe  09:12

Yeah. Right. And I think I was actually quite shocked. Because the story I was raised with was so constant when I was a young person, and it was in the story apparently, was supposed to give me moral direction. And even when I confronted my mother with this story, when she gifted me her journals when she was 93, and had totally forgot what was in them, and for some reason, agreed to give them to me rather than burn them. And I immediately dove into the oldest ones I could find and found out that The story wasn't true. And when I asked her she just said, you know, it was, we thought it would set a good example for you. Because my dad's story was a story of, I guess, 1930s and 1940s, playboy. And he had all these photos of women he had shot when he was dating them. And then he bought that day's matter of pornography, which were transparency slides, and he had them all wrapped up in little boxes in the china cabinet. And so there was this drawer that was his drawer, which was the china cabinet drawer with all his photos. And he ever every so often would look at them. And then I'd ask my mom, well, do you have any photos, and her story is she ripped them all up after she stopped dating, guys. And she said, Yes, she made out with guys, but she never went all the way. So that kind of that. And, you know, in some ways, it's really sad that that was how they handled things with me, rather than my mom, you know, being more present and honest with me, in my 20s, and, you know, be more of the way mothers are today with their daughters, where they can almost be friends in terms of their frankness, and the things that they share with each other. But my parents, you know, very much sustained in in a generation gap. And in my book, I ended up discussing a parallel generation gap that I uncovered with my students who were often Armenian, Latin and Asian, and whose parents also told them stories of virginity before marriage. And the stories that were potentially believable, were the ones where the mother married very young. But the father's virginity was never a topic, never known never seen as a thing. And what was so fascinating with, especially some of the Armenians is that they maintained the reputation of virginity, even if it wasn't true, but their community expected it. And so there was sort of this cultural cover up, that enabled them to function is acceptable, young women in their culture. And for some of them, they really were virgins, and were really mystified about how to manage sense. And others work in their private admissions in their when they wrote their sex histories for me, for the class assignment, and I told them, it would be shared with no one, they discussed all kinds of activities that nobody knew, but they felt that it gave them a kind of confidence. And some of the women assess that their culture was really imbued with a double standard in terms of male and female sexuality. And even when I'd share the findings with the next class, than next year's class about what my previous class had assessed and studied, they would all act like it wasn't true, because that was still part of the public narrative.

Adam  13:55

That's really interesting, because it's even like, we were collecting data here, and then it's in when it's translated and transferred, there can still be an error of disbelief, because it's not the common cultural narrative, right? And that it's, it's, I really appreciate the way that you kind of put together the different generational kind of narrative gaps that we can see when you think about one's parents, but then also like, even as we're working with, with students today, and the the different kinds of narratives, you know, cross culturally that that still have these interesting, you know, taboos around sex. And that's, you know, it's obviously one of the ones it's, you know, it's one of these, you probably imagine that measurement feel the same way, it's like the, one of the deep ironies of the human experience that like, sex and reproduction is one of the most fundamental parts of how we continue as a species, but it's also one of the most taboo things and has the most like, kind of rituals and rules around it, of anything that we do in a social scenario, which makes it endlessly fascinating to the point of your book in your work, and also why we also fixate so much

Leanne Wolfe  14:51

on one of the things. Yeah, and that's one of the things I love about being an anthropologist is always being able to dig up some culture And it's practices that counter, whatever the common narrative is. And so I loved reading about this practices in Polynesia, in Mongolia and such where, oh, adults were expected to initiate young folks in how to manage their sexual energy, and how to become effective lovers. And if a girl admitted that her young boyfriend didn't bring her to orgasm, it was a public piece of conversation. And it was, to his embarrassment that he didn't do it right. It was nothing about that she didn't know her way around her body, but that he was an effective lover, and he should know better because he was trained. Yeah,

Adam  15:53

and I love that example, too, because it reminds us that or, you know, points out this idea of right that we can always see another world as possible. You know, oftentimes, there are literal examples of how else people engage in sexual behavior. And in this to your point here to also like, both very intimate, but then also quite social, right? It's a socialized moment of how do we talk about sex? We talk about pleasure. And if it's not done, right, you know, then we're gonna talk about that, you know, as a group. And that's a very interesting, no, not at all, kind of how folks in the US tend to approach it are like the majority, I guess, we used to say these conversations. And

Leanne Wolfe  16:27

then another area that I ended up being able to do a little research on was the Gare wall festival in Niger, where I was able to witness what had been touted as a marriage market, at least in a by journalists were young folks, and the whole community would gather and assess the young men that were available for marriage. And they were basically assessed in terms of their looks, and the more I and they would dance, and they were giving given prescriptive costuming and makeup and dance steps and whatever. And the more I looked at it, the more I realized that it was an amazing counter to how the Western world manages and looks at male sexuality, where we look at adolescent males, and think that they're basically hormonally out of control. And they need to direct all that energy into sports. And instead, we have this whole community that's absolutely celebrating how gorgeous these men are. And every and the elders are, are assessing them, and not just the young women who might become their partner or partners. And so that approach to adolescence and to gender, I just found, like, so in such an important contrast for us Westerners. Yeah,

Adam  18:17

I really liked that part of the book. I thought that was really interesting, too. Because you asked that really important question where it's, what would it look like? Or what would it mean, if we actually in the western part of the world, also, instead of treating this as it's, you know, hormones out of control, is actually something to celebrate, and not, you know, treat as a demonic, you know, set of hormones, and also that, ultimately, something's that both repressed and then push off to the side, right, like, you know, we'll just check that your point channeling it into sports. And I think that it is just like, you know, curious point, you know, it's not like a historical conspiracy theory. But it's like, you point this out in the book to where it's like a lot of this is a Judeo Christian rootedness of like how we think about Puritan ism, right, which is just didn't take root in other parts of the world for various reasons. And so no,

Leanne Wolfe  19:02

not at all. And we have the God of the human relations area file to find all kinds of examples of something that counter that Judeo Christian perspective.

Adam  19:16

Yeah, it's, it's like, I think that that does raise some really interesting questions, too, where it's like, you know, it's always the, like, the cultural anthropology dictum of making the strange familiar in the familiar strange, but I wonder too, about, like, you know, in your perspective, you know, working as, as a, you know, as a professor, as a researcher, as a counselor, like, you know, are there ways to ethically bring in, not like to, you know, have a central appropriate cultural practice, but, like, how can we think about other ways to, to, you know, help shift those conversations in more broad ways, I guess it's like, you know, for students, it could be in the classrooms for example, or you know, in the counseling scenarios, but I'm just curious your thoughts on this to have like, you know, we can't we can't bring the the festival over here necessarily, but like, some of those ideas, like how do we help bring those that form of thinking that there are other way As of being in the world, that metaphors teach more

Leanne Wolfe  20:03

anthropology, edifying more books like mine, and make it okay to be different. And, you know, I think at least in terms of gender, today, we're really seeing an an opening, where, like gender bias non binaries are accepted and considered. And many questionnaires you can select that as your gender and not male or female, and, and then those who, you know, do say that they're milling at you, if you if you're participating in this grand discussion, you would designate who you are, rather than presuming that it's clear. And so this whole I, dia of, you know, embracing otherness is becoming more and more in certain areas right now. And we're blessed to live in these times. Because when I was coming of age, you know, even being gay was still in the DSM, as a deviant psychological disorder that needed to be treated. And now it's like gay marriages of is acceptable in all 50 states of our country. And it took a long time coming, and we're even moving more towards polyamory being a very known option. And many of the major news magazines and papers are doing headline stories on polyamory. And so things that were once seen as very kind of marginal, in terms of options are at least publicly and media wise. No,

Adam  22:02

yeah, I think that that does that shows us one? I think the the, I think the important part, right, that of course, culture can change and does change over time. And I think, you know, polyamory is a really interesting example of that of how we're seeing a broader cultural conversational shift taking place. I thought that was actually really interesting. I mean, you know, that was a, you know, you write about that in a number of different parts of the, of the book in it was interesting, you know, I mean, both, we live in a couple of topics here to be a I'm also a fellow Burning Man goer, burners, you know, I've been 10 times I've been to the big burn twice and number of regional burns like seven times. So I both love the practice in like that, that as a like, intentional cultural experiment of what it means to be a human, and how we can be differently together. But then also like this interesting, you know, you did work with the the adultfriendfinder site, Ashley Madison, also, you know, between questions of cheating and kind of polyamory and annual sex as a way to kind of ask some of these questions and other there's like a lot of really interesting things happening there, as people are, you know, we're seeing a cultural shift in terms of we're talking about what can living with multiple partners mean, in at one point, you pointed out that the if we're kind of playing with Helen Fisher's biological ideas of like, what happens to our brain when we're when we're with a new partner versus a longer term partner, and that kind of a dopamine versus a serotonin, I'm gonna mix these these up, you know, that kind of getting a sense of the the multiple things that are happening in these different areas that we can ask these different questions of, like, you know, even this idea of polyamory, like some people say, this is thinking about this idea of having multiple partners, other people feel like that's, that's cheating. Others kind of talk about this, this idea of that. It's not necessarily either of those, right. And that can actually just be a slow form of serial monogamy, if you're trying different partners out. So I'm curious kind of like, as you as you look back on this research, and in all the ways that you've explored it, like, if you think about polyamory, like as it, it seemed, because you kind of ascribe it to us like it was a fairly normalized activity in 70s. Bay Area, right. And now it's become a little bit, you know, right, broadly, more broadly Converse. So it's like, have there been any major shifts that you've seen that have either shifted in the meaning of like, how's it happen,

Leanne Wolfe  24:04

basically? Yeah, well, one thing is polyamory has a lot more language attached to it, and we anthropologist will love studying language. And there's terms that are used today that kind of replace terms that were used previously. And still, I think the analysis that I came up with following my dissertation on polyamory and jealousy, still very much holds. But the thing that's and that analysis was that largely, folks can benefit in terms of the brain can chemistry situation by practicing polyamory? Because once you're in a home relationship that's stable and supportive and ongoing. Your brain is largely filled with oxytocin and vasopressin, but it's not a Really exciting time. And we humans have an appetite for newness and excitement. And so if you're able to, within the rules and practices of polyamory, engage a new lover or several new lovers, then you have the opportunity for what polyamorous referred to as Inari, or new relationship energy, where you have a lot of dopamine and norepinephrine surging through your brain. And if you can maintain both, you're a pretty happy person, you have stability, and you have surges of excitement that ping your day and make life really delightful. And, you know, there's, of course, a, you know, there are folks that do very, very well, in long term monogamous partnerships, where their love is continually deepening. But not everybody is a candidate for that. And they may no just need more variety, or they just may not have an appetite for the kind of intimacy depths that long term relationships benefit from and instead, their relationships just kind of become routine and stale and unsatisfying. You know, as in, you know, I, you know, I've done a fair amount of cheating research. And as I, you noted in my book, some of it was funded by the folks that own the Ashley Madison website, and cheating is probably a much if it's managed well, which is mainly keeping it at cheating, and no disclosure is a pretty safe thing to do, because it doesn't challenge monogamy, because monogamy, at least through the lens of anthropology is simply being married to one person. And that means social, economic, everything. But you know, in terms of cheating, sexual, so you're still a stable unit. That's not particularly revolutionary. It's, you know, humans have cheated forever. And, you know, back in something like the 14th century or something, Montaigne looked at folks who didn't cheat is very dull. And cheating was just standard is like you needed the hit of someone new and exciting. Now, when Ashley Madison hired me to study their cheaters, they thought that the angle they wanted to look at as you reference was the seeking something a little more exotic than they might be engaging at home, which was anal sex. And for being a sexologist that kind of knew that for normative heterosexuals, anal sex was not going to be something so sought after that they would cheat for it. And it proved to be true. It was only the kinky folks who I access through other means that gave a high interest in this for hetero sexuals. The amount of anal sex that they might want was just sort of a as an incidental act, it wasn't something you would necessarily look to a new lover to provide. But one of the things that we discovered fortune fortunately, because I added a bunch of extra questions into the survey, otherwise, I would have been a totally dead survey was that many of the men believed that other men were receiving more oral sex they were and the women generally had nothing to remarkable to report about oral sex because most women think of oral sex, it at least in a heterosexual context, as foreplay to intercourse, but for men, that because it's much more of a visual act, because he can see his partner engaging him would really find it a very affirming thing to experience it with someone who loves them. So the idea of having it through even a lover who they were cheating with, because she was interested in him in a deep way, made it valuable. And going to a sex worker was not the same thing, because that person obviously was being paid and it wasn't because there was a true endorsement of him as a valuable man.

Adam  29:54

That's interesting. And it's like thinking about the way that different sex acts means something different to different genders, you know, in different contexts, right? And like how that might trigger something more like cheating or not. And I think there was, I don't remember the exact data point. But it was also like it was one of the in the study that you were looking at polyamorous relationships to different kinds of sex acts as part of that. That was, there was a slightly higher incidence of oral sex givers than receivers amongst polyamory community communities, which is interesting. And I thought as a condition kind of dovetail also with this with this idea that like, heterosexual couples thinking that there was more men thinking that other couples had more oral sex than than they did, and obviously to that point, calling

Leanne Wolfe  30:37

men. Yeah, yeah. And even the poly men thought that in because we had a study where I used some of the Ashley Madison data and compared it with Polly data that I and there too, we saw more of the men believing that other men were having more oral sex. But the same time the poly folks also didn't want to pay for sex to receive oral pay to receive oral sex, but they wanted it or preferred it from dedicated poly lovers.

Adam  31:14

Yeah, that's interesting, too, right?

Leanne Wolfe  31:18

thing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the thing that was interesting in terms of the poly folks versus the cheating folks that we studied, and this, you know, was, you know, back in around 2011. So it's 13 years ago, things could have changed, what I was seeing there was that the poly folks were much more exploratory. And in their sexual practices, they were more likely to N gauge in bisexuality, more likely to engage in BDSM things that the folks who were swing, who I'm sorry, who were cheaters were not that game for. And then also the poly folks reported being much more happy in their home relationships than the people who were cheaters.

Adam  32:14

I mean, yeah, that actually does worry about that, too. Because it's in that in part, because one has a sense of what's going on, you know, in their larger relationships, circles, and still, you know, this desire to maintain either it's like the the kind of core relationship are your primary versus secondary or other kinds of partners?

Leanne Wolfe  32:33

Sure, yeah. They're both desiring to maintain their core relationship, but manage it very differently, that cheaters manage it by not disclosing and sustaining it in the poly people manage it, through being honest and transparent, which is a much harder thing to do and to hear about. And the at that level, you know, I, in many ways, did assess people practicing polyamory is basically doing serial monogamy in slow motion. Yeah. And that's where interesting, they, you know, if you're in the intense, romantic limerence phase of a relationship, you're not interested in anyone else. But once you're out of that phase, you couldn't be. And if you want to be ethical, and you don't exactly want to break up, you might start practicing polyamory. And then if someone else occurs, that really kicks it up for you, you may not be able to focus well on your home partner. And there may be something that ultimately triggers you to want to leave your home partner. And

Adam  33:45

do you think is that also perhaps where some of the fear of people that they're thinking about experimenting in polyamory have with it's absolutely, like, I'm afraid it'll it'll ruin

Leanne Wolfe  33:55

it opens it all up. In real, it really is a risky thing to do. And less, you know, there's, you know, a understood reason that it's gonna make sense. And that's a really tricky reason to come by, in terms of how our culture manages couples and romantic love. It reminds me that the same time it's rare to sustain and you know, an intensity that people in the attraction phase a romantic love, and that's the beauty of practicing polyamory, but to be able to hear about and entertain and engage multiple partners and having and so that workout, maybe works out best through a tribal kind of configuration, rather than a couple configuration. And so if folks or their primary interest or focus is their whole group, which is these days called Kitchen Table polyamory, which in other times was called an intimate network or sometimes called a poly kewl. But here you have a group of people who are equally concerned and loving of each other, and want the best for each other. And so if you remove the couple base to it, it there is the potential of it being sustaining and not as jealousy provocative, and probably the form of polyamory that deems the most sustainable is solo polyamory, where one's primary relationship is with themselves. And one is in complete integrity in engaging other partners as saying, you know, you're not the only one, but you're certainly very valuable to me, and doesn't have a goal of living with any such partner, but continuing to be in relationship with that partner, there's less possibility of that overwhelming nagging jealousy, because one is signed on to not have anyone be so connected, that losing any of that connection would be painful.

Adam  36:34

That's fascinating to think about, like also how that mean, obviously, it's like the value of having open honest communication, right. And kind of setting both one bound boundaries and expectations of how relationships can function. And just the continual reminder of the value of doing that, like, in any relationship, if one's no one's in a committed monogamous relationship, same thing is incredibly helpful. But obviously, like in poly, it seems it's like, it's just, it's to the next level of like, required conversational and kind of open disclosure, but also just shows it's like, it's like, it's there can be a challenge of opening that up to other people. But at the same time, you know, I think what you're working shows, and also, what we're talking about here is that, like, there's such a value in that because then there's one finding what works for you, and your community, in your, in your, in your partners, and self. And then at the same time, recognizing, like, if we think about, again, some of our cross cultural examples to that there's, we're able to kind of bring in other ways of being right, there doesn't have to be one kind of locked down way. And that a lot of the reason we haven't talked about it, or haven't explored it in our neighborhoods, or churches, or synagogues or communities is because it's like, we have different rules set. Right. But, you know, the fun of anthropology, right, is that we get to we get to step outside of our own milieu, and then look back, and say, That's interesting that folks over here, you know, in Polynesia practice, you know, sexual practices, where we're seeing in Samoa, you know, practicing, you know, raising girls and boys this way or that way, and what that might mean, as we bring those conversations back here, as well, it's interesting, because I always think about the idea of like an anthropological consultant, you know, because, again, we don't want to appropriate other cultural ideas, but like, there's such a value again, in like attending other festivals and other ways of being in seeing coming of age ceremonies and thinking about how folks raise themselves, right. And I was thinking about this, too. I mean, the, the, there's kind of like the quote, unquote, classical anthropological ways we can, like, you know, Margaret Meads, Margaret, we've worked all the way through Helen Fisher. But then also, like, there's the some of the work that you've did a little later that I think is really interesting, too, is like looking at sex tourism as like another area that like, raises questions of like, what is the you know, how our relationships functioning, and like, in this case, like this is explicitly cross cultural, because we're seeing usually like Western white, usually people heading into, you know, Vietnam into Peru, and to Mexico into different different countries in Jamaica in for different reasons, right. And like, what that might look like. So I'm curious, you know, how, and all that research has also shaped your perspective in terms of like, cross cultural learnings, where we're seeing these kind of explicitly cross cultural, sexual encounters.

Leanne Wolfe  38:54

Yeah, they're very formalized. And the cultures that explicitly host cultural tourism in these kinds of ways, or rather, sexual tourism, you know, very much are keyed in to the kind of exchange that's feasible. And depending certainly, on economics, this is a huge factor in what's being sold or exchanged or bargain for or whatever. And, you know, there are contexts in which, you know, first there's, you know, a certain amount of friendship or gifting, but then there's the presumption of huge amounts of help. And even at the level of selling some version of the girlfriend experience or the, you know, where a man comes to believe that this woman from another call Ciara is really interested in him. And we and it's a tricky thing for everyone to assess. Like, would she really change her life and become his wife after living as she is living, you know, currently, and this, you know, these are huge questions in terms of, you know, what she would really want for her future. And, you know, one of them, anthropological books that has always amazed me is this book, about falling in love with a younger mom, a woman, and the anthropologist who went and not like Napoleon check, Nan just studied them as an anthropologist, but he went there and fell in love with a Yanomamo woman, and ultimately brought her back to live with him in Pennsylvania, and they had children. And then at some point, you know, just by it all, she assessed that she did not like the Western world. And she didn't feel comfortable, she would, you know, maybe she felt to other, and she returned to her village, where she bathed in the stream and lived as as the Yanomamo do, and, you know, her children had been raised in America and could never fit in the tribal context that was home to her. So, you know, there's just a lot of variance in terms of how much we can really be or engage the other. Yeah. And I think that that's a great point. And you know, folks thing that because I do anthropology and lived in a lot of places and studied a lot of things that sexually engaged men from all over the world, and I haven't, you know, that's a really tender, tricky thing. And typically, it's not really available in an honest way. And I wouldn't do it. Yeah,

Adam  42:14

I think that that's an important point, too, because, I mean, it is, but that folks kind of have a misconception of how you've done your work, or like how we think about that, like living elsewhere than having sex with the people around the world, either as part of research, or just because

Leanne Wolfe  42:28

the most that won't happen would be like, I'd be in Africa. And some man would look at me and say, Well, you're a professional woman, you are a professor and you're a writer, it would be great if I could marry you, because you could bring in some serious cash. Because my current wives, you know, they helped me with the farm. But beyond that, we don't really have a source of cash. And, you know, you know, I'd love for you to marry me. It wasn't like, I, you know, well, you know, any of the things I've typically needed to feel, to want to engage a man, you know, I didn't feel a vibration or an a particular cause gives me erotic attraction. It was just a very honest, economic assess,

Adam  43:23

right when I was little, it feels kind of weird to say you're like, oh, transactional, but like, Well, yeah, that's actually how most people approach a lot of things. And that's one of the questions we want to ask, you know, yes. Yeah. It's like, is that okay? It

Leanne Wolfe  43:34

is very transactional. Yeah. I'm

Adam  43:38

curious, like a cross, and I can approve

Leanne Wolfe  43:40

transactions. I mean, much of our lives are based on transactions. So we, you know, take jobs teaching, because we get paid and not, you know, there's, it's not unusual way to behave as human. Right?

Adam  43:55

Well, that's, that's why I love because that shows the, the tension, often between the kind of cultural narratives that we tell about sex and sexuality, and then like, what we think and what realms we think they should be and reminiscent of it's transactional, that somehow not not as, okay, if it's then just for love or something else. And it's like, well, you know, we have to ask, interrogate, why are we why is that our narrative? And like, is that what's actually happening? And then also, what other circumstances make it so transactional relationships are important or useful, right? You know, in this like, often we don't, we'd often target that that piece, but I mean, thinking about that idea, too. I'm curious from across your research across your work in your life, you know, what is, you know, because you've studied, you know, orgasms into into sexual assault, right, and kind of everything in between it sounds like what's been most difficult or challenging to study across the world, the sexuality that can be used? I mean, you studied most everything that I can think of,

Leanne Wolfe  44:47

I don't know, you know, at different times in my life, different things were difficult, and certainly as a young woman, with the messages I was getting from second wave feminism regard are doing the myth of the vaginal orgasm. And, and such I was orgasm was complicated. And for many women, it remains complicated. You know, I, you know, basically what happened with me is I, as I discuss in my book, I started having sex with my boyfriend in college. And it was comfortable, but it wasn't orgasmic. And I wanted to figure out, well, what, how, how does that happen? And so I started querying some of the young women in my women's consciousness raising group, which was my source of information on things. And they told me about using a warm stream of water from lying in your bathtub, and putting your crotch under the spigot and letting it run. And something could happen. And absolutely something happened for me. And I know other women who were much more who are wired differently, and it couldn't happen so easily. But I very much knew that that's a that could be a source for me. And then, you know, I was around when some of the first women owned vibrator stores are merged like good vibrations, Joanie blanks for store, and I, you know, access those vibrators and again assessed how very effective they were. But for me to integrate what I thought it a sex was supposed to be, in terms of intercourse and orgasm took was very confounding. I mean, it was one thing to have direct clitoral stimulation during intercourse. And it was another thing to have intercourse in such a way that it enabled direct clitoral stimulation. And that was confusing. So, I, you know, ended up you know, realizing that in my own confusion, I should do some research on this and find out well, who how else are folks negotiating all of this. So I through the funding of love ology University, Dr. Eva cuddles platform, I studied orgasm, and we called our study orgasm in America. And consent, queried a lot of folks regarding what they thought worked and what didn't work and what counted and what didn't count and all the rest of it. And one of the things we found was that the people who were the biggest fakers of orgasm were folks in their peak reproductive years, because they had higher priorities, either to find a partner to have a family with or to sustain, sustain their home partnership. And their interest in personal orgasmic fulfillment was the lowest. And we found young men were the most easily to see, and most likely to believe that their partners were orgasm winning. And we basically found, you know, that post reproductive folks were pretty honest about what was and what wasn't happening. And so all of that, you know, was pretty interesting research. You know, as firms studying sexual assault, I didn't really have the desire to study it until around the time that meat two emerged. And then I did a study on changing attitudes towards sexual assault. I had, as I described in my book, I had suffered a rape in my early 20s When I was in Mexico. And my assessment then, which I think was pretty accurate was that if I wanted to be an anthropologist, and a professor and a writer, I better focus on that and not focus on being a rape victim. And otherwise, that would be my full identity. And that didn't interest. And then when me too emerged, all manner of folks came out and said they were very victims to or assault victims or all the above. And then I started studying the differences in beliefs regarding what counted is what and this was pretty interesting because we largely found that notions of consent in terms of no meaning no real They varied between the generations. And that millennial folks who had come of age when there was consent training, were more likely to respect that no meant absolutely no, we're Boomer folks thought of the No means no as the beginning of seduction, and that eventually you convert the no to a maybe and after a while of the maybe seems kind of viable you push to make it a yes. And so, you know, we and then there were also certainly differences between genders, in terms of what a definitive know meant, and young women were the most certain that they did not want to be hit on by folks who they had not selected, and that they would select their partners thems without anyone imposing seduction on them, where folks from my generation expected seduction. And if it wasn't there, we couldn't get very interesting. Yeah, so

Adam  51:10

it's even even like, yeah, making sense of both how ideas and meanings change between generations and and also, you know, amongst genders between them. And like, just shows both how complicated research is, and obviously, it's like, if we're talking about sensitive topics, too. It's like, how those conversations can happen, I think, is also just important like that we attend to the research in a careful way to you know, in, I think that is, like, you know, shows also why it's a challenge to do to do this kind of research. But I think it's like, what I appreciate about your work, too, is that like, how can we have these conversations more openly and honestly, and like and feel more confident and having conversations about sex, right, and things that we might be, that may be more taboo, whether it's relationship structure, orgasm, or sexual positions, or being by curious or, you know, any kind of issue that would help kind of open up what identity can be for people as part of that? And so I'm kind of absolutely, you know, so yeah, so I appreciate I appreciate that you have been doing this, your entire working on that, that you're putting this out there, because it's like, we need to have these conversations more, especially as as norms change. But then as it seems like we're seeing people ask more kinds of questions, right, we have, again, consent is a good example there that we're seeing younger generations be more explicit about that. And then we see more respect across across borders for when people say No means no, it means no. So I'm kind of curious, like, you know, thinking about where we've been in, like, where we might be going, you know, whether it's in the field of sex research, or you're seeing in client work and consulting, you know, are there like emerging topics or questions that kind of excite you of like, where, where we might be headed next in our I mean, there's always, there's always more to do, right? Well, of course, there's more

Leanne Wolfe  52:43

to do? Well, one of the things that does concern is the situation for young people who have spent so much time on their screens, and so little time, in a person to person context and not having the muscle or skill set to really look each other in the eye to engage each other, with courage to be physically present with each other. And, you know, we have situations with folks are much more comfortable with anime or with pornography than, and they get easily addicted to pornography and have a very hard time moving towards in person connection, and that, you know, at some level may not even be valuable to them. And, you know, certainly as anthropologists, I think that's something to look at and respect, rather than presume that it needs to be changed. Yeah, though, certainly, for folks who want to change it, it's a journey. And it's not an easy one. Another journey I was exposed to, through some of my clients were people who had gotten addicted to meth. And meth was honestly such an amazing high, that stacks was boring. And they were trying to move off of meth and find sex valuable and exciting, and coat with a partner. And it wasn't an easy journey. So, you know, there's, you know, those kinds of things that, you know, through my counseling research that stood out to me as being challenging and just also because women have had such centerstage with through a feminism and through me to that, oftentimes, young men have not had their masculinity really honored the way the gara wall honor their meals, young men's masculinity. And we have a generation of young men that are floundering. And they have a hard time finding a way to properly and publicly and gloriously assert themselves. Unless they, you know, happened to be sports stars, and there's not that much room for that many sports stars. And so, it's, it's a travesty for our time. And, you know, I think in terms of the future, you know, many of us look at AI, and wonder, you know, how is AI going to impact sexual imagination, and partnering? And, you know, certainly there are instances, you know, even back with a movie some years ago, called her work, folk in a character fell in love with icon who generated the right kind of messages. And this icon was so satisfying, that even though this icon was in, had many other partners was, nonetheless what he wanted. And so you know, it, I guess what's really up for grabs is partnership. Yeah. Because in the we have, you know, the meme of solo polyamory having a growing amount of popularity, marriage rates, not necessarily going up at all. And many folks, you know, kind of floundering in terms of how they want to live their lives.

Adam  56:50

I think that's that's a that's a a wonderful and fascinating point that is deeply worth exploring, too, because we are facing an uncertain future. I guess the future is always uncertain. Right? But, but it seems like yeah, to your point, we can we can trace some some interesting and troubling trajectories that ask us what do we want to change? And should we change? And can we change? And for whom? And who gets to make that choice? And then, you know, also, what that means for human pair bonding, or multi pair bonding or multi bonding, I guess, you know, right. Right.

Leanne Wolfe  57:23

That's one thing we know is that we are pair bonders. And we do are bonders. Nonetheless, and, you know, we'll it'll, and we'll find out where that biological imperative takes us, you know, one of the bonds that we anthropologist very much celebrate as a mother infant bond. And we recognize the absolute importance of that, for survival, but there's never been, in our species, a huge demand for the marital adult bond, as being essential for survival, it's more of an add a cultural add on, you know, whatever form it takes, be it through a gay marriage or hetero marriage, or polygynous, or polyandrous. Marriage, those are often much more economic, and, and maybe with social expectations than anything to do with survival. Hmm, that's really interesting point. And, and also, you know, when we think about, you know, life expectancy, women, or at least in the Western world are still out living men. And we have many, many women who spend a good amount of their senior years, not in a primary partnership. And, you know, they may be disdained through being mothers and grandmothers. And even in a tribal context, you know, oftentimes it's the grandmother who does additional provisioning, that really sustains her daughter and her grandchildren and, but we don't have a offer a lot in terms of really thinking about, you know, the kind of love and support and connection and community that older folks need.

Adam  59:20

Yeah, I agree. I think that that's also a fundamentally important area, that area that's going to become more important right as we're seeing more folks live longer too right? We were we basically having sort of the the big thirds of five now there's quarters of life in essence. Right? And yeah, and it's like wait, there's an entire like, you know, even the creation of the retirement ages 65 was was a creation based primarily on when people thought how long someone might live in like now we're living 3040 years longer than that, you know, and it raises like really important questions like what does that mean then I have an entire another section of life. That's quote unquote, this case post work, but like, it's never really post work at this point, you know, so it's more just like post post post what at this point, but

Leanne Wolfe  59:57

never and though Those who are not working, you know, they may spend a couple of years traveling and go in and going doing a lot of socializing. But then eventually, they're going to look for purpose. And if there isn't purpose through children and grandchildren, they're gonna need something and many of them go back to work, because work, you know, had given them purpose. Right?

Adam  1:00:25

Yeah. And I think it's these two pieces, right? It's this idea of purpose, which for many of us find the work then to your other point, like, it's also through partnerships, multi or singular, right. And like, in these are two areas that we have to address, I think right to like, because we all you know, it's, it's this idea of living well, as long as we can. And that's usually because of proximity and community. Versus like a great job. You know, it's comes back to people at the end of the day, ironically enough, right? Like, starts with people and comes back to people there does, ultimately, and I want to say thank you so much for joining me on the pod say there's been been a wonderful conversation, I appreciate you rabbit rabbit holing with me a bunch of across a bunch of different areas. I'm really excited to get your book in the hands, eyes and ears of our audience. And so we'll be sharing that show notes. But again, thanks, it's been great to talk with you and appreciate all the work that you do.

Leanne Wolfe  1:01:10

Thank you so much. And I'm glad that you were able to really look over my book and see all that's in it because oftentimes, journalist who interviewed me, you know, look at, you know, just the very beginning and don't really get the whole scope of it. And I'm so pleased that you did awesome.

Adam  1:01:28

I have to hold the reputation of anthropologist Right.

Leanne Wolfe  1:01:31

Thank goodness for Anthropology.

Adam  1:01:33

Hashtag we read the books. You know, we got we got one thing going on, I guess. No, but cool. This has been great. Thank you so much. Well, folks, that wraps up a remarkable journey through the lens of anthropology, sexuality in the very essence of human connection with our guest, Dr. Leanna. Wolf. It's conversations like these that peel back the layers of our societal norms invite us to look deeper into our own biases, beliefs and behaviors. It's clear that sexuality as we've explored today isn't just a biological imperative, but it's a complex tapestry woven from the threads of history and culture and individual identity means insights remind us that the study of human behavior and especially in areas as intimate as sexuality is a mirror for understanding our own place in the world. That challenges us to think differently, to embrace diversity and to fundamentally respect each other's varied experiences and truths. Now, if today's episode was piqued your curiosity or sparked a desire to learn more about the nuanced narratives of sexuality and apology, I encourage you to dive into the Anna's work further, you can grab a copy of her book at the tail bookstore, which is linked below in our show notes. And if you do that, you'll be supporting independent bookstores, this podcast and the author. So it's a win, win win. Thanks once again for joining me on This Anthro Life. And remember that the journey to understanding the complexity of human nature and culture is endless. And it's discussions like these that light the way so until next time, keep asking questions and seeking answers. This is no good. Well, signing off. We'll see you next time.