The Power of Collective Identity: Brad Deutser on Building Human-Centered Organizations

Adam: 

Welcome to a brand new episode of This Anthro Life, the podcast that explores the many dimensions of what it means to be human and the fascinating intersections between anthropology, culture, and society. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. And today we have an incredible conversation for you. Picture this. You're stuck in traffic on a busy freeway. We've probably mostly all been there. Frustrated and wondering why you're even there. And then suddenly from the midst of hustling cars, you see a man standing in the road. And he's holding a press conference. Sounds like a dream, doesn't it? And who is this guy? This is Brad Deuster. And what's his message? Not that traffic sucks or that we need to have fewer cars, but literacy. In fact, what he's doing is he's showing that he believes that being able to read signs like the ones that are guiding you through the traffic jam are essential for everyone. So Brad's unconventional approach raises eyebrows and captures attention, drawing us into a deeper conversation about the power of identity, purpose, and belonging. So I'm pleased to share that Brad survived his PR campaign here on the highway and is joining me on the podcast today. So he's the founder of the Deutser Clarity Institute. And Brad Deutseris a thought leader and an author who possesses a unique ability to merge insight and purpose and creativity and even play to elevate organizations and individuals to new heights. Now, in a world that often emphasizes and celebrates individualism, Brad is going to challenge us to consider the importance of belonging and understanding who we are in larger contexts of organizations and society. A freeway might just be one of those places that it all kind of comes together. So in this episode, Brad is going to share his decades of research and creative thinking on how organizations can expand their box. You know, thinking inside, outside of box, that kind of idea. Challenging standard norms and paradigms. We're going to explore the dimensionality of leadership and what makes a good leader today, the importance of empathy and compassionate communication, something that we could all use a little bit more of, and the need to challenge power structures within organizations, something that makes this anthropologist quite happy to think about. So I'm thrilled to have Brad on the show because his insights align perfectly with the core mission of This Anthro Life, that is to explore what it truly means to be human and how we can create a more human-centered future. So as we dive on in, make sure to subscribe to This Anthro Life on your favorite podcast player or on YouTube. Remember that your support helps us bring more incredible conversations and content your way. So get ready to challenge the status quo, expand your perspectives, and discover a world where individual identity and collective belonging intersect. Just to kind of open up, I want to say Brad, really excited to have you on this Anthro Life today. You know, it's been fun to both check out your new book, Belonging to Your Rules, but also getting to know your organization as part of the process of doing research for this. And as an anthropologist, I thought it was really cool to see the work that you're doing and you've kind of combined together. the best of think tanks and idea accelerators and workshops and learning labs. And so just kind of say, welcome to the program. And then I'd love to kind of jump in a bit about what the work that you do, both at Deutser and the Deutser Clarity Institute.

Brad: 

Awesome. Thanks for having me. I, I was so excited to talk to you because it's, it's awesome when I get to talk to people who value people and organizations. And from an anthropological perspective, it's so much of our business. Our business is really about a human approach to organizational change. And so there's so much going on in the world, yet I feel like people are often the last consideration in organizations. And we simply place people at the forefront of the discussion. And so everything we do is about that human approach to change and how we think about change in organizations, societal change, how we navigate through things, what is the impact on people, how do people help, you know, how do we help people navigate through it? So our company gets to do really great things with extraordinary leaders all over the country and world for that matter, helping them to navigate with their people through the change and the constant chaos that people are living through. And so I have a really neat team of social scientists, business consultants, and elite creatives that come together. And as I'm sure as you know this, I mean, no one sees the world the same way. So different disciplines all coming together and challenging each other on what they see and what we see is often different. So that's the Deutserside of what we do. And we have these learning labs, our institutes as we call them. We've wanted Houston, New York, Bermuda, Arizona, and a new one in Austin. And it's Willy Wonka land for leaders. describe it is we have games on the ceiling, we have the sea, we have the sky on the floor, we have games on the floor, everything is interactive. And everything really goes to this idea of dimensional leadership learning and how we overstimulate the brain with creative stimuli, with positive, positive inputs. um, positive distractions, um, to, to get us to have really more human conversations. So I don't know if that's where you want me to go or not with this. I can go a lot deeper, but it's all, it's all about people. Right on.

Adam: 

No, that's great. And I think that that's a, that's a wonderful introduction and something I'm curious about there to think about with you is. As we're kind of thinking about the dimensional aspects of leadership and how we kind of bring those out, you know, having, you know, games on the ceiling and the sky and the floor. So it sounds like there's a lot of element of play in your work also. And so I'm curious how you think about this idea of how do we, you know, kind of approach and build leadership in a more human way. And so to me, I'm thinking about this is, I mean, years ago, I did an episode on the podcast that was, we called it Homo Ludens, but it was like the playful species. It's like one way to describe what people are. And what makes us a semi-unique animal in the world? You know, I know other, other species play too, but as I'm curious about in this, as we think about developing leaders, that sounds serious, but it sounds like you have a lot of play as part of the work too. So tell me about that, that thinking process.

Brad: 

Yeah, we're so used to using labels. We label everything in society. And I think it makes it so we can compartmentalize things in our, in our mind. And, and, and part of it is that we're executives, this is business. And somewhere along the line, we forget that we spend probably more time with our work. than we do outside of our lives. So why do we have to compartmentalize fun to be only on these times, at these nights? There's a reason why you have the disconnect. There's a reason why there's the burnout. Because we're saying, we spend all this time at work, but yet we're only going to spend this much time at fun, and then I'll get a little bit of that. And so we create these hierarchies that I don't think are natural or healthy for human beings. And so the idea of incorporating fun, incorporating play in our spaces, in our exercises, in our interactions, to me really goes to a fundamental human need to connect. And it's to connect with each other in a human way, but it's to connect with ourselves Not as this rigid, serious, business is serious. We deal with serious, serious issues. And there is no, there are times where, Hey, we're talking about people's lives that we are, we are working to save. We are talking about complex issues, societal issues, political issues. We're talking about complicated issues in the workplace that requires seriousness. But there are other times where we can let go and not carry all of that with us and create that balance. Everybody's talking about return to work and how do we, you know, it's hard for people to return to work and, and yeah, there's a reason for it. One, people got comfortable doing something. It worked at a different time. But the bigger problem is the leadership, the organizations today haven't created the spaces and experiences. that encourage, that invite people, which is really what a belonging is about, inviting people in for that different kind of conversation, that different kind of experience. And I think that's where business is going to evolve to is this evolution to not everything is going to be Disney and every, you know, we're going to have rides and fun and animals and this and that. But there is a way to increase productivity, and I'm sure with all your study and your work, you know, by just tapping into the human psyche in a little bit different way.

Adam: 

Yeah, I think that's a brilliant insight. And it's, it's refreshing to hear too, because it's like so often when we're working in a consulting context, you know, if we're thinking about organizational change, it's so much of it has been for years has been premised on the customer experience, which is fundamental. But I would, you know, I would argue too, that like a more fundamental piece is the employee experience, right? So it doesn't need to be Disney. I think you're right there. But recognizing that like a, a well-performing business, uh, and that's going to be able to engage customers means also taking care of our employees. And I think that's, that's such an important piece that your work explores, you know, so I've been, I've been diving into your, your new book, uh, Belonging to Rules. And I think a really interesting set of reflections that you you've come out that I want to dive into, but to, to walk us into that book, how I was introduced to your work was around the survey that you did around with like 15,000 employees to get a sense of, of what actually matters to people when it comes to work. So tell me a little bit about. uh, how y'all came up with this survey and then, and then what it, what it showed us.

Brad: 

We've been studying belonging for, for many, many years and, and sometimes it's taken different shapes and forms and how we think about it, but it really is, uh, about this fundamental human need. And so we study people, we study their, their interactions. I have a team of organizational psychologists, anthropologists, PhDs that really look holistically at important issues relating to people, especially people in the workplace. When we created the, the assessment, we have a series of, of different tools that we've used to, to understand what people say and think. And then we have a series of tools that we work with leaders on to say, Hey, let's measure belonging in your organization. Let's measure the positivity quotient in your organization, things that aren't traditionally measured. But for our, our big study really told us a number of different things. Number one. There is a fundamental human need for people to belong. And this epidemic of loneliness really exacerbates that, that fundamental need. In our work, nine out of 10 employees surveyed said experiencing belonging at work is important or extremely important. Now, on the surface, you'd probably say, well, yeah, everybody wants that. But I don't know that people have been really conditioned to think about belonging at work. So that was a nice kind of finding for us. And it validated what we believe and what we experience with our clients. But what was really interesting is that the lack of belonging diminishes employee commitment. So you talk about the idea of, you know, employees who are not, quote unquote, loyal anymore. Well, their commitment is not there because the company's commitment's not there. So we found that employee commitment is impacted, employee engagement is impacted, and satisfaction is impacted by low belonging scores. And for some, that goes into the cultural bucket. Oh, we just got to fix our culture. But for the serious leaders, understand it's not a cultural bucket, it's an organizational bucket that impacts and influences the bottom line. What we found in the survey is that, again, you know, effort, satisfaction, engagement, really fundamental things. We also found that it has a direct correlation to positivity. Again, something that leaders don't really think about. They think it's a rah-rah mentality, but we really broken down and we study positivity and positivity in organizations. And so all these things link in and link together to, um, influence and impact, you know, how we think about belonging. I think the two most important things that I take away from our research, number one, Belonging trumps strategy and culture in terms of importance to the workplace. That's a big kind of wait, stop for a moment and think about kind of thing because leaders always lead with, well, let's fix our strategy and our culture and everything else follows. But what the workforce has told us is that no, belonging trumps both of those. And it trumps it so much that people are willing to take a pay cut to work at a company with higher measures of, a higher commitment to higher measures of belonging. So it influences the bottom line. It's the most important element to the work workplace today. It impacts retention, impacts performance, and people are willing to work for less just to, just to, to be part of an organization that, you know, values people. If you go back to kind of the premise that we talked about before. Hmm.

Adam: 

That's fascinating. And I agree too. It is kind of a stop, wait, what moment when you think about, you know, how important and fundamental the idea of belonging is. And this is interesting because it, it, on the nerdy anthropological side, if you think evolutionarily, right, you know, we evolved as a, as a species to, to belong to one another. I mean, that's one of our like fundamental traits in our capacity to work together in groups and bands and. That narrative has, you know, we don't talk about that too much for various reasons, but, you know, and part of that, you know, has been this interesting question of like where we look at and think about society is today. And even, you know, this is something that you explore a bit in the book too, that we could think about is, you know, when does belonging become this kind of forward and most important aspect? And so in this case, like in organizations, we're seeing that, that it's as much as a leadership may want to say, let's just make a better culture. It really is not about that and or like that is not something that's separate from how we interact with an organization. And so one of the things that's really interesting I think about this work too is that you kind of have distilled it also into these major rule sets or kind of areas to think with. And so I'd love to kind of walk through a few of these. I mean, if there's any that stand most out to you, let's dive in. But I think like definitely as an anthropologist, I appreciated that like the first thing that we see is like unpacking power structures. Um, because power never gets talked about in business very often, especially not, you know, from, from a leadership downside saying, well, I actually have a lot of power in this scenario and I'm choosing not to change. You know, so tell me a little bit about, about how we came to this idea. Um, and this is the first one too. This is, this is interesting. So, so tell me about this.

Brad: 

And it's, and what's funny about it is, is that we, when we developed the rules, we, we said, Oh, we don't really know that there needs to be an order to the rules. Does this, is it important to, and, and the more that we studied it and the more that we, we work with clients on it, it became very clear that. there is a, not a hierarchy, but there is kind of a numbering to them. And we start with turn into the power, which is rule number one. And, you know, we, this is an important rule, and I think it's become even more important because, as you said, We don't talk about power. We don't talk about power dynamic, power structures. We don't talk about the things that impede progress in an organization. Society has dictated to us that, you know what, let's let's not go into this, let's simply go around it. And if you go into it, then you're labeled, you're an activist, you're this, you're that. But the reality is, is that what we talk about with power structures and the idea of turning into the power, It is, it's all about power differentials. I mean, there's statuses, there's hierarchies that keep people in and some people out. There are things that are inherent in the organization. Sometimes they're people, sometimes they're groups. Sometimes it's design of a space. Sometimes it's our policies. There are different things that we don't think about that impede, that impede our ability to kind of flow through. And so you look back at some of the social unrest, the social issues and change that organizations and leaders have had to deal with. The ones that most people, maybe it's wrong to make the generalization, but many organizations said, I've got to change. I've got to affect change and I got to do it now. So I'm going to hire this position. I'm going to make this statement. I'm going to do this." Well, what are they doing? They're circumventing the very structures that are in place that inhibited the progress in the beginning. Not necessarily intentionally, it could be unintentionally. And so when we go around the power structures, we make progress. The problem is, is that the progress is never lasting. And so the progress is often temporary because we don't address the real issue, the structural things in the organization that are creating the environment to begin with. So we're really big on, on, on, on working with leaders to, to turn into, turn into the power, be willing to have the difficult, to conversation, if you will. And it doesn't have to be confrontational. It doesn't have to be an ugly thing. Sometimes it's simply acknowledging that these things are in our path. Or if we considered this policy shift, it would impact how people in the organization work together. So there, there are times to know when to call issues out, when to suggest change. And I'm not suggesting that every level in the organization has the ability to do that. But everybody in an organization has the ability to recognize, understand what those things are in the pathway, as opposed to just saying, there's something there. It's just, I'm going to label it to that person and work around them. That's not healthy or lasting.

Adam:

 Yeah, I think that's a really important point too, because so often dealing with like, I mean, addressing the questions of power is difficult. You know, I think as you rightly point out, and that it's hard oftentimes for leadership to potentially on one level kind of say, well, yeah, this is somewhat, if they've been in the organization for a little while, it's like, this is also a part of my doing, right? This isn't just out of nowhere. It is some of the systems that we, our organization has grown up with and been a part of. But then also like how do we address them now versus just trying to go around through a high or something. And this is an interesting example because a few things that you said there caught my attention too because the other piece there is like we tend to label things that we don't either understand or don't get them and kind of think of them as negative right away. So even how we have thought about organizations to work with things like DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, or ESG, you know, environmental, social governance as these two very big, complex, hairy areas that are, that are both premised around making organizations more human, right. Being more open to heterogeneous workforces and skillsets and lifestyles. Uh, and then also, you know, being more. Better, you know, I don't want to use the word stewards, but I'm going to for now stewards of the environment, you know, and, or, you know, being more socially responsible and which is the other original term, right. Corporate social responsibility. that are pointing towards some issues that organizations have dealt with and that we've dealt with societally. But then also the challenge of when we're working within labels like these, this can also can both turn people off and confuse folks too and make actually addressing power kind of more difficult. So I guess there's this other area of labels too that you talked a bit about. So I'm curious to get your perspective on how we can think about these areas together.

Brad: 

Yeah, they work together. And I want to build on something before we go to the labels, because as you talk about DEI and ESG and whatever the issues are, the opportunities that exist today to create a more human organization, a more connected organization, leaders are becoming too binary. Yes, no. And there's a nuance in these. And so when we think about power structures, part of it is, it's not just hiring a DEI director and saying, there, check, we've checked the box. That's compliant. And sometimes in organizations, a compliant mindset is a power structure into itself. And so we always challenge leaders to think about this through a lens of compliance versus committed. And where are we on that spectrum of any particular issue? So I love the idea of, of kind of thinking about, of this, not as yes, no, but this spectrum that is, is, you know, uh, starts at compliance, checking the box, but in today's environment, checking the box, as I said, it's going to inhibit progress. where the committed organization is going to go right through it, go right through the power structures that exist to, to really affect the change that, that, that organizations need and that society probably needs as well. Shifting to the other conversation, the other rule or second rule is listen without labels. And I think that all these rules work together. They build on one another. The idea of listen without labels is about hearing what's spoken without judgment, without any form of judgment, while engaging the unspoken with a With a measure of humanity, of heart, of really trying to hear our society and whether it's social media, whether it's whatever it is we've conditioned ourselves to, quick answer, here it is, we label everything. Everything gets a label. We're having a conversation. Okay, he's this, she's this, they're this. And we go and we still distill things down. I don't think it's to be ugly to anybody else. It's to make us more easier for us to respond. We're so quick to have the need to respond. as to have the, the need to really listen. And so we, we talk a lot about listening without labels and in, in the book we talk that, you know, there's, there's one label that is the label that I think is an important label and everything else we push aside and say, you know what? Those labels don't, don't help us in this conversation. The one label is leader. And so when everybody. No matter who they are, no matter where they are in an organization, no matter where their rank is in the family or wherever they think, we're all born to be a leader. It may be the leader of one. It may be the leader of many. But that's the label that we kind of think that if we, when we, when we allow ourselves to see ourselves, not with the job titles we've gotten, not with the labels outside of work, but we're leader, then all of a sudden it gives us a strength and a capacity to say, I have the ability to listen without labels. I have the capacity to slow down and to process. There are different things that we can do. And so we're really, really big about listening without labels, with having empathy, with being vulnerable, and really having a different kind of compassionate thinking. Not having to be right, not having to be the smartest, But there's something we should give, you know, we should, we should give buttons out to those who really work to connect because it's something that I think people value even if they can't put words to it.

Adam: 

Yeah, I think that's right. And it's something that you said that jumped out to me there too, is I think so often too, we talk about leaders as needing to be able to make these quick split second decisions and make a thousand of them per day. And basically like we put, we place a speed emphasis on like understanding and making decisions. And what I hear you saying is that like one can still act quickly, but like a lot of the, and like the main kind of piece around this too, is like not jumping to the conclusion, but actually taking time to listen. and especially kind of feeling with somebody, you know, kind of the empathetic perspective there, feeling alongside someone, to really understand their perspective. And something that you write about in the book in this case, there's a, I think this is a really great example you talk about when you're working with the University of Texas, UT, about the question of whether to change their alma mater, the song, and that this really interesting idea, like when things get, like, we're talking about tense issues here, and I'll let you talk about the example, but like, When we get to tense issues, people want to jump to like label something right away. And that can be both quite hurtful, but the other side about this, the reason that this came up is that people also feel the need to be heard, right? And so when we press leaders to be quick, you know, split second decision makers, we're also incentivizing them not to listen. It seems like. And so I think in this case, you're kind of giving a counter, a counter set of advice. It's like, let's actually not, it's not about going as fast as you can. It's about, I don't know, going as empathetic as you can. I'm not sure what the opposite there is, but that's kind of what I'm hearing from that.

Brad: 

I think that empathetic is a great, is a great choice of words there. We as a company are brought in when it could be the highest performing organization, it could be the lowest performing, or it could simply be a really volatile issue. And what we have found is, is that people want to be valued. They want to be heard. They want to know that their perspective, no matter how the organization has labeled them, how they place them, where they sit, that they have something of importance to share. And so in that example, in the, in the, in the, in the University of Texas example is a great one. We had a solution set. I knew how exactly how we could solve the problem. It was complicated. It was all these different things. And we created a number of different solutions because I went to the velocity, I mean, the speed. We need an answer now. The tenor is hot. We have to do something now. Where The work we do a lot of work with, with mindfulness and meditation and, and, and just simply the pause, just the pause in our breath every day and going back to that and using that as a, as a major lesson in our consulting work to say, sometimes it's not going into it. It's simply sitting back. It's absorbing. It's allowing people to be heard. In that case, I listened to eight people. I listened to eight more people and eight more people and eight more people. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to talk to, you know, well, I talked to 16 people, 30 people, 50 people, a hundred people. And it ended up being more than 3,500 conversations. Wow. And what we found is, and what the premise of the book is, we don't have to agree in order to belong. And so sometimes it's being willing and respectful to have the conversation. I don't agree with you on XYZ issue. But my willingness to be in this moment with you, to have the conversation, to listen to another human's perspective, to share my perspective, to agree that our goal is not to change each other, but simply to hear each other. Think about what happens in the world. If we just have the conversations, we did a campaign and I think you saw it in, in, in one of the stories in the book for the Holocaust museum. And one of my favorite pieces of art that we created were two squiggly looking characters, not to represent any, any one kind of person. And with the simple message, they were looking at each other with a simple message. It's hard to hate up close. And it's easy to hate in our society. It's easy to label in our society. It's easy to do those things because again, whether it's social media, whether it's the speed, it's just, we got to get through this. Let's get to the next thing. As opposed to slowing down and saying, let's understand each other. Let's actually listen. Let's remove the labels. Let me hear what you have to say. Let me feel what you have to say. I may not agree, but I ask for you to respect me for just giving you the space to share, giving me the space to share. So I can go on and on on this, so I apologize for that, but I'm passionate about how do we create connections with the things that matter, and that's people. And when organizations get back to the fundamental that their people matter, that their people are the ones who are driving their performance, that their people are their, their key to sustainability, to growth. Then we figure out, we come back to the very core premise of, Hey, how do we listen? How do we create this space for belonging so that, Hey, we accept the difference. This is who we are as a company, but we accept it.

Adam: 

You know, I think that's really powerful. And yeah, I'm happy to have, have you talk all day about this too. Cause I mean, I think that both the, the, there is such a need today, I think for, for more, you know, kind of mindful approaches to how we engage with one another in part, because when we think about, yes, the, the idea of we have a fundamental drive to belong, but that doesn't mean we have a drive to reject others. Right. It doesn't mean we have a drive to go really fast and then say, no, you're wrong. I'm right. And I need to, my, my work here is to convince you of why I'm right and why you're wrong. And I think what's really interesting about that is actually the next two rules in the book actually speak to this in really interesting ways. One is around this idea of identity, like thinking about the collective identity that we have as being part of an organization, right? And so this is interesting because when we think about like identity over purpose, right? And this, the idea of the rule here, it actually made me think, as we're talking about this, the idea of a human being versus a human doing, right? And it's like, I am who I am and I'm a being versus you're judging me by what I do. And I mean, sort of, sort of purposes, you know, purpose still matters. But this interesting way of how we, how we're thinking about, we're approaching like who we are, I suppose. So let's, let's, let's crack this nut, you know, and kind of go and go into this one too, in terms of how do we think about Uh, this idea of a collective identity too is something that's really important. And I love this idea because obviously in the United States, there's a, there's a huge push towards individualism. And like, there's, there's, I think there's great value in that, but at the same time too, as we both address bigger societal problems and organizations are some of the, can be some of the best positioned institutions we have to address larger collective problems because they have different latitudes of freedom, uh, to do, to do work. Uh, it matters that we think about how we identify. as part of these, these spaces, especially because we spend, I mean, as adults, we spend, you know, one to two thirds of our adult lives at work. And so what if we don't belong, that's bad. And then two, if we don't understand a sense of identity as part of that, then who are we?

Brad: 

Yeah, you, you nailed it. The individual is so important, right? We, we talk about that, this rule. elevates us. And, and, and it's, it's about the organization and choosing identity over purpose. And, and, and we've had lots of debates and people, we, yeah, but it's, it's purpose. And if you look at so many things that are written and talked about, it's a purpose. Everything has to start with the purpose. And we agree. wholeheartedly that purpose is an incredibly important element of the overall macro identity of an organization. But in this case, there's a broader context that we have to think about as we think about identity. And we, we talk about this from the lens of creating an ecosystem and that ecosystem, it recognizes the complexity as well as the wholeness of identity. And so there's kind of this constant tug. When we talk about identity, we're talking about purpose. We're talking about what we value. We include the behavioral kind of characteristics of an organization, the characteristics as well as the behavioral traits, I guess, of an organization. So we try to look at this holistically. An example I use in the book, we do a lot of work with college sports teams and NFL teams, and most teams have the same purpose or a very similar purpose. where we want to win championships. That's a noble purpose. We want to serve our community. Noble purpose. We want to have the best experience. We want to do these three or four things that are part of why we exist. but it doesn't differentiate us and it doesn't necessarily give people a sense of belonging. If we talked about one team versus the other team, very different identities. And so the purpose is one of the pieces. How we articulate our values, how we think about the broader identity and how that works with, we're big on behavioral competencies. We believe that the nucleus of an organization is both the we, and when we talk about the we, it's our values, what we collectively aspire for, and the me, which are the behavioral competencies at every level of the organization. And that comes to form the nucleus that creates that sense of belonging in the organization. So there's a complex Our model is an ecosystem that is created with human elements. It's like the periodic table. I mean, these are the elements that make us who we are. But choosing identity over purpose makes a difference. It's not just the uniform one team wears that differentiates them. It's the heart and soul. Why is a team in California different than a team in New York? It's not just the geographic location because everything else is the same. It's what is, what's the identity. And so we're really big on saying, Hey, we, we want the individual to be recognized for the individual, but recognizing that we're part of a larger system. We're a larger construct, if you will, that sometimes we have to check certain things at the door to be part of this team, this organization that's able to do, to do, you know, bigger things than any one of us individually. So if we think about the belonging rules, being very clear on that identity conversation is fundamental to our ability to create that space. To me, that creates the space. We talk a lot about the belonging box and creating that box as an organization. When we define what's in the box. It allows people the chance to jump in and want to belong. I know what you stand for. I know what we stand for. And also, if we think about the edges of the box, it allows leaders. the parameters to lead within the parameters that set for the organization. So it is that social contract in so many ways, and it helps to create a measure of clarity that when people choose identity and they choose the wholeness and the complexity of identity, they're able to create a very clear expectation for the organization.

Adam: 

Hmm. Do you find that, I mean, do you find that I like, I like the box metaphor, you know? And so if we're thinking about this idea of, of kind of working in the box, we're thinking in the box or outside of the box, when we talk about creativity, we often, you know, I've heard this back and forth between it's like, let me think inside the box versus outside the box or on the edge of the box in this case, as you're kind of pointing out. So, I mean, if, if we just play with that metaphor a little bit, when we're talking about getting a sense of what is kind of the, the me and we pieces that are kind of the back and forth, the organizational identity. Like, what can leaders do or what advice have you found or kind of shared to different clients that you can share that have helped us think about this, the idea of how do we approach thinking kind of on the edge of the box and seeing both what's in and what's without?

Brad: 

So we have researched this idea for a couple decades. The idea of, and I start a lot of the conversations by asking people, So are you an in, how many people in the room are an outside box thinker and overwhelmingly hands go up? Well, I'm an outside the box thinker. And then I asked the question, how many people are an inside the box thinker? And you see a couple of people shyly. Yeah, that's me over here, but I'm only in accounting or I'm, I'm the, and you, you hear that. And we, we, we ask the question a little different. And I tell people what our research says. And what our research says, and is pretty conclusive on this, and I'm, I'm the person who says, Hey, I'm an outside the box thinker. You know, I'm, I'm the guy who on, on the busiest freeway in a city will say, I'm going to do a press conference at five o'clock traffic in the middle of the freeway. And people are like, you can't do that. I'm like, sure you can, because it's for a literacy cause. And I'm like, if you can't read the signs, we're going to, that's, what's going to cause traffic. You know, here, we're going to do that. That's outside the box. But then the question is, is it? And so what our research shows is that it's actually inside the box thinking that drives creativity, innovation, performance. And for me personally, this started at the beginning of my career. This is where this study started. And I didn't know it was a study at the time, but I worked for Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey Circus in every single day. I watched the three rings and I couldn't understand why there were three rings and what the importance of the rings were and why those rings were important. And those rings became my box as I think about performance in organizations. Why? The shape of the ring, circle, square, whatever it may be, it creates a defined focus. It creates parameters. For the theater, that's a stage. That's their box. It's the stage. For a football player, it's a field. It's 100 yards. So if you think about the greatest performers, they all have defined spaces from which to operate. And that's really where so much of this study really originated from. What we've changed the question to is not whether you're outside the box or inside the box. My question to leaders or to people wherever they may sit is, well, how big is your box? Is it the right shape of a box? No one says the box, I mean, the box may be permeable as we're thinking about the metaphor of it, but we think about a box and its constraints. where the greatest organizations and some of our most important work is helping simply to help a company see that their box just needs to be expanded a little bit. You know, and so sometimes the, some way to think about it is if we're dealing with a financial institution, Hey, we got a great idea. XYZ restaurant is, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna open 10 new restaurants. Well, that's really outside my box. Is that going to drive my performance? Maybe, but it doesn't feel core or even related to my business. So that may be outside of my box. So it's having comfort with the definition and we have the sides of our box or direction, operations, people and engagement. The bottom is identity, the top is environment. So it's a three-dimensional box. Really working with leaders to calibrate where is their box? You know, is it the right size for where they are and what they want to achieve? So I don't know if that answered exactly, but it's, it's, it's an interesting kind of way to think about, again, labels. Well, I'm creative, so I'm outside. No, we're all, we all have that ability. This conversation is just how big does the box need to be?

Adam: 

Yeah. No, that's great. Now that totally answers my question in, I think, a really interesting way too, because I think so often, and I agree with you too, that there's the false dichotomy of in and outside the box. And actually the box in that question just becomes the bad guy because it's the thing that is limiting you and that's the wrong way to approach what it is, because without creative constraints, then there's also, you can't define what you're doing, right? It's kind of like, okay, well, I could do anything. Great. What's going to be valuable though? I only know that because we're the, we're the side of the box is going to say, we'll just have an impact on my business or my customers, you know, or the, my employee experience. So I think that's a great way to approach it.

Brad:

 I'm never thinking about boxes. Yeah. Sorry. Creativity and innovation. The best creativity is the innovation, the creativity that's at the edge, pushed to the far edges of the box where we're stretching ourselves. We're just not outside there. I've been too far out sometimes, but when I bring it in, It's relevant, it sticks with the organization and it drives performance in the organization. So I love, I'm going to have to use your, the box has become the bad guy. If you don't mind me barring.

Adam: 

Sure. Yeah. Just, just tag the This Anthro Life, you know, and I love that idea. Because it's funny too, because I mean, it comes back to the labels discussion that we were having before too, right? Like we decide that it's a certain thing and then we say, well, that's what we got to not do now. And it's like, well, actually, we actually missed it. It's not about not having a box. It's that like, what labels are we putting on it that actually are making it so we're missing the point of the box in the first place. But even this, I mean, speaks to this other idea too, that I see in a lot of the work and also that you discuss about the importance of challenging our paradigms, right? And kind of challenging how we approach problems and questions. And that it's not about building conflict, but it's about like, let's ask why we're doing what we're doing the way that we're doing it. Maybe this is like, I get, we got a little more time here. So I want to, maybe we can talk about this one to kind of get a sense of what does it mean to challenge the standards and norms that we, we organize ourselves with.

Brad: 

Yeah, so rule number four is challenge everything. And what we've found and what our study is in organizations is organizations are rife with conflict. Look at, look at politics. Take politics for, as an example. Politics is built on the concept of, of conflict. There's a, I have to win. I have to win. Both sides are fighting each other. And what is it doing? It's the people who are connected to either side are now, everything is oppositional. And so the idea of challenge is very different. Challenge is two people, two forces, two sides coming together with maybe very different ways to see the world, but with an openness to explore that maybe there's more to learn. I look at challenge as creativity. So when we talk about challenge everything, it's about promoting, it's about promoting an open environment. It's an environment that allows inquiry that's free of conflict. That is, it's, it's, as we say, devoid of oppositional energy. And it's, it's driven by this, this positive spirit, positive spirit of curiosity. So if you think about challenge and you think about challenge through a creative lens. It becomes a very powerful, creative, um, multiplier, a creative change agent in an organization or in a conversation. And so the idea I'm known in my company for challenging everything. And sometimes it's, it's, it can be uncomfortable. We, my team can work for a long time on, on a, on a concept. And I come in, I'm like, all right, I love it. And we have a process called the effective challenge. And we start by acknowledging, you know what? The answer may be right. The answer is right. But I have a duty to ask these questions. And when we get into it, you realize it's not about fighting each other. It's about birthing this new idea. It's about birthing. It's about elevating a concept or creating a greater understanding between the two, between two sides that, Hey, we're working together on this. So it's a major concept that, that we believe is difficult in organizations. If you think about. Some of the sensitivity that lies, some of the issues that lie within organizations, power structures, going back to that conversation, I'm not allowed to do that. There are ways to challenge. There are ways to ask thoughtful questions that, again, devoid of that oppositional energy, that we're just trying to do something better. So it's one of my go-to kind of rules as we go through this to say, hey, challenging everything is positive. And it's not about being divisive. It's bringing people in. Again, belonging.

Adam: 

Yeah, no, I think that's great. And I think that's also, it's just such an important piece too, because again, as we're thinking across like that, I'm glad you brought it back to belonging there too, because as we're thinking about the broader theme here of, you know, what does it mean to feel like I belong to an organization, you know, that I want to be a part of? How does it jive with my identity and kind of jive with the we identity of the organization? How do I feel comfortable both acknowledging and talking about power structures. How do I feel comfortable challenging them? You know, and both that can be power hierarchies, but can also be, well, it's like, we're still following a process. So like, let's, let's, let's keep adding to that idea. Let's keep building on it. Cause it's not saying you're wrong or it's not good enough or, or my idea is even better. It's just that as we, we kind of think through processes together and like have both creative constraints and latitude to be creative. It gives us all space for input too, right? Listening and making together. And that's really an important piece. Just because people say, Hey, you didn't say the fifth rule. Let's, let's say the fifth rule too. So if we make sure we cover it off in the conversation. Sorry.

Brad: 

Yeah. Well, so the fifth rule is demand 100% of the truth. And this seems like an obvious, easy, no brainer rule, of course. But the reality is, is that most organizations operate around 80% of the truth. So most organizations, we study this in organizations again, we work with organizations, 80% of the truth, look how great we're doing, 80% of the truth. And the conversation is yes, but that 20% Think about if we close that gap of that 20%, what we're actually able to accomplish. The 20% is the piece that we're often leaving people out of. So it's difficult conversations where people then begin to say, do I belong or do I not belong? And the leaders are saying, well, look, we have it, most of it, most of it we have, we've got. And so we're just, we're just, this is the hard stuff. And so closing that gap of that last 20% is critical to, again, performance, to sustainability, and to creating an organization that creates that space to say to the employee, Yes, everything is out here. We've talked about it. And again, I'll keep going back to the same concept. We don't have to agree to belong. It's really fundamental to this. And it's a, it's a different mindset. We don't just have to watch one station or another station. We don't just have to be with people who share this. We can actually be in the same space with people who have wildly different ideas and feelings. And as long as we open that space and allow that dialogue in a safe way, we create, think about the spaces we create and we invite other people into. That's where the change begins in organizations.

Adam:

No, I think that's great. I'm super, super enthused to hear listeners' reactions to the book as they get it in their hands too, because I think it's, it's a, I think a really important series of, of, uh, again, you know, rules, truth that we've, we've walked through here, but then also, you know, again, just pointing back to the fact too, that like these have come out of decades of both research with, with a ton of, you know, great minds and thinkers, but then also, you know, this kind of creative playing with how we, how we understand what organizations can be and do. And I think, especially as we. You always want to say as we begin the 21st century, but we're like a quarter of the way into it, so we're not beginning it really. But as we keep getting deeper into it, right, and as other things like AI is changing how people approach work and questioning what job roles are out there and, you know, there's economic uncertainty, and also people are looking for work, right? I mean, post great recession, you know, and barring more pandemics and like other massive upheavals to work, people are looking for work that matters to them, right? And I think, you know, what your work helps us see too is that belonging is such a fundamental part that has not been a huge part of conversation so far, but it's always been there, right? And so it's kind of the importance of uncovering Uh, that which has been both latent, but also explicit when you say, Oh yeah, it's like, yeah, of course I wanted to belong. I just never, I never said it like that. Right. I never thought about it that way, but it's there the whole time. So appreciate the work. And I thank you all for putting it out there in the world. So just as a, as a, as a last kind of point there, I just want to get a sense of what are you excited for us as we like head into the second quarter of the 21st century for business, like. What are y'all looking forward to? I mean, A, you've got an office in Bermuda, which is a great start. What else is on your radar in terms of exciting happenings, changings? What are you looking forward to going out there?

Brad:

We love, we love to help and, and at our core, that's, that's what we do. We love to help. We love to help leaders. We love to help people. And so as I look forward, I look forward with a, with optimism that there's, that there's positive things in the horizon. I know that there's challenges ahead of us. And so those challenges, be they political, societal, business, there's lots of things that we have to navigate. So I'm excited to be there in, in. with a different conversation to help leaders navigate in that space, to really bring the idea of belonging forward. As I say in the book, I may be an odd vessel for this conversation, but nonetheless, it's something that I'm excited. We're, we're, we're opening. our Institute for Belonging, that we're gonna be inviting researchers around the world to participate in, to share their research and their findings. We're gonna be doing events. We're gonna be really bringing people together, hopefully on college campuses as well, about having these conversations, making these conversations part of the norm. We're excited about doing more and more work in sports because we look at high-functioning teams, as really these incredible, you know, defined, well-organized units that mirror business. And so that we measure performance with them for football on Sundays and for basketball and baseball, you know, sometimes every day of the week. So, so much to be excited about. I'm also excited about our institutes, our leadership learning labs, and bringing more and more people into them. Because when people walk into them, it reinforces, it changes their brain to go, this can be fun. Development can be fun. My personal growth can be fun. I'm all in. And so I just, if we can, if we can make one person's life better, if we can give them just a little nugget that changes their perspective or how they deal with their family or their children or their, their boss or their employee, then we've had a really good day. And that's what, that's what excites me about the future.

Adam: 

Awesome. So I'm super excited to hear all of that as well. We'll definitely link in the show notes to the organizations, the institutes that are bubbling up and great to hear about it. So yeah, best of luck out there and keep doing good stuff and love to keep the conversation going. So thanks for joining me on the pod today, Brett.

Brad: 

Thanks for having me and thanks for the approach you take and the way that you invite people in and make me feel like I belong in the conversation. So grateful to you and look forward to continuing it. Awesome.

Adam: 

Many thanks. And that brings us to the end of another inspiring episode of This Anthro Life. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Brad Deutser as much as I have, and it was a captivating exploration of identity, belonging, and the power of collective thinking in organizations. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Brad for sharing his valuable insights today. His perspective on the importance of embracing our collective identity while still valuing individualism resonated deeply with me and highlighted the potential for organizations to address bigger societal problems. As we reflect on today's episode, I encourage you to consider how you identify yourself, especially in the context of the time that you spend at work. How does belonging and understanding your identity contribute to feeling fulfilled and purposeful in your own life and in the workplace? Brad's emphasis on mindful approaches to engagement and the idea that we have a fundamental drive to belong without the need to reject others give us a lot to think about. Throughout the conversation, Brad touched on several key topics, from his research on thinking outside the box, and the importance of challenging paradigms, to the significance of embracing labels like leader, and practicing empathy and compassionate thinking. He reminded us that expanding our individual and organizational boxes, those constraints that hold us back, can unlock tremendous potential for growth and innovation. So as we navigate the complexities of the 21st century, from technological advancements to changing job roles and economic uncertainties, Brad's wisdom and strategies for fostering a sense of belonging and purpose in organizations feels more relevant than ever. If you found today's episode thought-provoking and insightful, I encourage you to subscribe to the podcast and never miss an episode. Leave us a review, share some comments, or share the episode with someone that you believe will also find some value in it. Your support really helps us reach more curious minds just like yours. If you're hungry for more content, hey, who isn't, then be sure to check out our Anthrocurious Substack blog where we dive into all the fascinating world of anthropology, culture, humans, and more. As always, I also want to hear from you, so share your thoughts, stories, suggestions for future episodes by reaching out on social media or by visiting the website at thisanthrolife.org. All this is linked in the show notes below. I value your input and want to create a community of like-minded individuals who are just as curious about the world as we are. Right? So thank you again for joining today. And remember that belonging is a fundamental aspect of the human experience. And as we navigate these uncertain times, let's work towards building organizations and communities where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued. Can't be that hard, right? So until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep listening. I'm Adam Gamwell, and you're listening to This Anthro Life.