Exploring Texas Wine History with Clay Roup

Shelly: I attended your class at Texas Wine Club in Hye before I started teaching Texas Wine Club experiences in Dallas and so some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, I heard from you in that class because although I've spent a lot of time on the podcast talking about the modern Texas wine industry, I don't always start it back at the very beginning and I know that's a particular interest of yours. So I thought we could spend this time going back to the very beginning of Texas wine and talking about a few of the highlights.

I have learned this as have you. I know you've done the class with Russ Kane and so I have touched on some of the historical aspects of Texas wine, but I thought we could explore that a little further today.

Clay: Yeah, and what's fun about the exploration of history is that because it goes back multi generations, there's really no hard and fast answers. There's sometimes more questions than answers, so I think we're going to have... Lots of questions and maybe not as many answers, but it will be a fun exploration.

Shelly: Yes. One of the things that made an impression on me in that class is you have a map of the United States and it shows the route that the Franciscan monks, is that how you refer to them?

Clay: The, I've referred just to them as Spanish missionaries, but they essentially, you know, Spain, expanded to this part of the... starting in South America, really Argentina, and worked their way north. And in that process of, I guess the word of wouldn't be colonialism, but, creating missions, creating missions had a higher purpose.

And of course, sacramental wine is a big part of their ceremony. And so you need a vineyard and you need wine. And so everywhere they went, the vine went. So they brought the grape that has many names, but known as mission grape also known as Pais, (P A I S). AKA Liston Pareto, also known as El Paso grape.

It's got a few names. They worked their way up eventually into California, but in the process, they had to pass through Texas and New Mexico. And so El Paso is considered the first place in the United States for the European grape was first planted.

Now, at that time, El Paso was New Mexico. You see this a few times in our industry and others, in terms of claiming who was first.

So, New Mexico will say they were first. The Texans will also say they were first. But there's no argument it was in the El Paso area. And we were a good 100 years before California in terms of growing the vinifera grape, which is meant for fine wine.

Shelly: That blows my mind because everyone, well, I don't know about everyone, but people who have in this generation, perhaps come to drinking wine, think that California is where it all started.

And in fact, there were, there were vineyards prior to those in California, right here in Texas.

Clay: And again, a little hat tip to Mexico. They were about 80 years before Texas. And it's fascinating because. So yes, the the Franciscan monks were making their way and it went up to El Paso and it kind of split They're kind of two ways.

They kind of went north further into New Mexico so that could be a reason why New Mexico kind of lays more claim because after El Paso They didn't go back into interior. So it was kind of a pass through And they did plant multiple vineyards in New Mexico. And of course eventually carved their path way out west and up into California.

 Again, kudos to Russ Kane for bringing a lot of this information to light through his specialist of wine course. But for about 150 years, the number one agricultural crop in West Texas was grapes and wine.

Shelly: We don't know much about that wine, do we?

Clay: We know that, I believe around 1868, I think it was a high official in the U. S. Army, who was reporting to people on, I think it was the East Coast, and said that the wines of El Paso are the finest wines that can be found in the United States. And somehow that word got to French and Italians. There was a period in the 1800s where it was quote known and established that Texas had the finest wines in the United States.

Shelly: Very cool. Yeah, that's a great place to start.

Clay: It gets a little murky between that, like, late 1800s up until Prohibition. It's probably the most challenging area to find information. And just in case you didn't, weren't aware, it seems to be the case and with a lot of in terms of Texas, it's weird.

It's like this period where there's speculation, like I think Russ mentioned there was multiple wineries. I think I've read up to 50. I do know there was some other wineries specifically in Fredericksburg. And I think Russ does acknowledge this, that after El Paso, again, that was a process of the Spanish and they had other destinations. But the, there was three places in Texas where when word got out that this was a viable opportunity in terms of agriculture and having a product. It was Belleville, which actually I don't even know where that is, New Braunfels, and Fredericksburg.

Those were the three places. I think that's fairly well established. Those are the first three cities in Texas. Texas that went in to grow grapes for the purpose of making wine that were not missionaries.

And of course we still have Val Verde winery and the Qualias which we're growing. Do you recall what grapes they were growing there?

Shelly: Oh yeah, actually I have it in Russ's notes here. Black Spanish and Herbemont. I don't, I'm not even familiar with that. It's a white juice, black grape, it says.

Clay: Those are, those are the two grapes that if you explore Texas wines, you're eventually going to run into those.

Russ talks a little bit about the influx of other cultures coming into Texas. Yeah, I think this is relevant. So, the Qualias were of Italian descent. You also had the, the Dutch coming in from the East Coast. Which, there's two main legends of Texas wine.

So, T. V. Munson, of course, being the main one. But Gilbert Onderdonk, which is not a name you really see that much of in our Texas Wine Materials, but Jim Kamas was the one who said, if you were going to talk about Texas history, don't forget Onderdonk. I've never heard of the guy. O N D E R, Onderdonk.

This guy, my, okay. Okay. So. Onderdonk is from New York, from Dutch ancestry, moves to Indianola, Texas, which is somewhere between Corpus Christi and Houston. And he moves there when he was 18 years old. He starts working for a reverend and starts raising horses. And four years later, raises a herd of horses, and basically does he drives them all the way to Missouri, sells them, and comes back and buys 236 acres, somewhere around 200 plus, and creates the largest nursery in the state of Texas.

And grapes was a, a big part of that. So he was really the first to propagate grapes to be able to be dispersed to other locations and, all the way up into Louisiana. Okay. Before he made his way to Texas at the age of 11, he was, he created multiple varieties of potatoes and was basically an established horticulturist early on.

Comes into Texas. He seemed like this guy did everything. He enlists in the, the army, Texas infantry goes into the civil war, comes back, raises horses, sells them, buys a bunch of land. After he, he expanded his vineyard to location about 15 to 20 miles northwest of Indianola and names it Nursery, Texas.

Oh, cool. And it's, yeah, he basically created a city, becomes the postmaster general and started, mentoring TV Munson, which we'll get into a little bit later. So those two kind of worked hand in hand to propagate grapes. But yeah, he's kind of lost, so you don't hear much about Onderdonk. And then the Germans started coming into Texas and what they were doing were bringing in vines from the old world.

I don't know if you've heard of this. But there's many stories about existing grapevines from that time period. Have you heard of this? So here in the Hill Country, there's, there's actually one in Fredericksburg on Main Street at the, Pioneer Museum. There's a vine that is clearly old, a hundred plus years old.

And we actually went and checked it out and actually brought the viticulture team from William Chris to come check it out, prune it up. 'cause it's basically just been doing its thing naturally for so many years. We haven't had it tested yet, but we know it's an interior grape. It's most likely black Spanish, which of course is a hybrid.

So it most likely is not going to be an actual vinifera grape from, from Germany. So Germans came in, they were bringing their vines. So there was a wine making culture from, from them, but yeah, it kind of fizzled out. And then when prohibition hit, it didn't really bounce back. There was a period of 40, 50 years, right?Where we didn't really have anything. Which, there's, what do you think the reason is?

Shelly: Well, I'm curious to know. I was just saying before we started recording that based on a presentation that Maureen Qualia gave at the Women for Wine Sense Conference in Fredericksburg in May, she, she had a couple of thoughts about why Texas did not pick up like California did.

And one of her... areas of, interest was that UC Davis was created shortly after Prohibition ended, and that the academic environment is one of the things that fueled the California wine industry. Or that was my takeaway. I don't know if she would quote just like that. But what are you telling me is the reason.

Clay: So, again, I can only speculate, but I do know that, yes, I would say that because it was the year after, right, Prohibition was repealed when they started UC Davis. Once prohibition started, the, the demand for wine didn't decrease. It's just the supply was decreased. So, now you have a black market. I'm sure you've heard about the, the vineyards in California, how they would, you could still buy grapes.

Shelly: And it would say whatever you do, don't do these things because that will create wine.

Clay: Yes, whatever you do, don't add this packet that's included that has yeast and don't accidentally add that to the grapes and allow it to ferment and heaven forbid. Yes. So there was a lot of homemade winemaking going on and then of course you had the the bootlegging that was going on with the hard liquor and the stills and with wine specifically. Because it was basically left up to people to make their own bathtub wines, and I'm sure there was some probably local people that had versions of stills that were creating wine, but they would heavily sweeten the wines.

So, after ten plus years of people drinking very sweetened wines, when prohibition was repealed, and this specifically I know happened in California, just more evidence of it in California. They would call them the ghost wineries, because when Prohibition happened, of course, they shut down. Now, there was always, there was a few exceptions, because much like Val Verde, they were able to keep making wines.

So they saw the opportunity, like, okay, now that Prohibition's repealed, let's get these wineries up and running. And, you know, all the money that would take to get them operational again. You know, there is a little bit of a lag time because, you know, five, five years for, to get your fruit and time and barrel and all those things.

So it's obviously an investment. And when the wines were complete after those, those years later, there wasn't a market for dry wines. Interesting. And so even in California, I don't have the numbers, but it was more than half that were essentially rebooted would fail. People had figured out either had an affinity for the sweet stuff, or they can still make it, or some combination.

But the demand to actually buy fine wine, you know, all but vanished. And so, and I know of the Texas Winery, which was created in 1939 by an Austrian, shut doors in 1950. And that's probably about the time you could figure out, like, okay. There's no market for this and I know there's more.

I don't have all of the names is something I'm definitely looking into but I think that they just saw like, okay, you know this guy spent 11 years trying to get it going. It didn't work And so we're basically it was until the 70s is when we first started getting some activity in our industry.

It's interesting.

Shelly: I've seen some posts on some of the Facebook groups and Texas wine about which Texas wineries got their permits, which years, and there are all sorts of reasons why a company may have had to be re permitted for whatever reason, or we didn't know we needed a permit, and so we got one five years after we actually started operations.

But I'm very interested in coming up with a list of Texas wineries in the order that they receive their permits and which ones are still around and which ones aren’t.

Clay: I would there's got to be some government agency that has that I think that would be fascinating because Val Verde you remember the number that their permit was I had it somewhere, I wanted to say it was 17, yeah, 17 It says they didn't have a permit before and nobody told them they needed one. So they got their post prohibition winery permit number 17.

Shelly: Here's what Russ says about prohibition. Russ says, there were over 30 Texas wineries when the Volstead Act brought national prohibition, which was 1920 to 1933. Only one survived, and that was Val Verde. They got post prohibition winery permit 17, because they didn't have a permit before, and nobody told them they needed one. After prohibition, 15 wineries opened. But by the 1950s, only one was left, and that was Val Verde.

Clay: So that, yeah, so they all tried to supply the wines that were in fashion before people got an affinity for homemade wines and sweet wines. And that lasts a few generations. So interesting.

Shelly: Well, I have heard that you can hide a multitude of sins in sweet wine. So if you're making it in your bathtub, maybe the sweet wine is all that would actually taste palatable.

Clay: And then once you eradicate the fine wines in the European style, then not only do the customers want the sweet wines, but, like you said, from the winemaking side, it's easier to make. And, you know, once you see, look like, what'd you say 30 wineries try to...

Fifteen, after Prohibition. And, yeah, they all floundered, so. Yeah. That would be interesting to see where cause you know, California had the, the ghost wineries and you know, some of the estates that we still have today, they've just basically laid fallow for many years, but I don't know if there's any remaining structures.

That'd be kind of interesting to see. Now I was talking with, Ricky from Alta Marfa and he was also, you know, there was, established vineyards in the El Paso area, and we were discussing how it would be fun to find old fallow vineyards, and I don't know if you heard the story about, , this was on SOMMTV, they found some vineyards in L.A. area that were over 100 years old, but they had been neglected for 40 or 50 years, and a winemaker went in and they pruned it up one season, and the next season they came back and they made cases of wine from that. So the idea of doing that here in Texas seemed plausible, but I haven't found the vineyards yet.

 But Ricky said he said he thinks that most of the vineyards that were in El Paso are long gone and have been built over. So I don't even know if people in El Paso are aware that they had finest wines in America.

Shelly: I've been to the Sharp family property in Fort Davis, and so they have a beautiful new vineyard, but they also have the original old vineyard that's planted on a different part of their property.

Clay: Was that the Blue Mountain? hmm. Yeah, that was, have you had the wines from that? I never have. I've heard they're... Legendary Cabernet Sauvignon from the that's what I've heard. Yeah. Yeah. So we basically, there's a large gap after prohibition, but to me, the most interesting part about our history is T. V. Munson.

Shelly: Yes. I was going to ask you about him next. You have a special affinity for researching T. V. Munson and talking about T. V. Munson.

Clay: Well, when I heard the story, I just almost couldn't believe it. You know, growing up in Texas, you know, we learned about Johnny Appleseed, but why not T.V. Munson? I don't even know if Johnny Appleseed was a real person. I think he was. So T. V. Munson, by most accounts was absolutely instrumental in keeping the, Not only France, but the European wine industry from basically collapsing. So the 1860s, we started seeing transatlantic travel through steamships, and I guess this would be an opportunity to kind of discuss the grape itself.

So. This is where you see a lot of discrepancies in terms of how many different species of grapes we have. I've seen up to, there's 200 native species in the United States. But much like with vinifera, and for those who are not that familiar with that term, essentially any wine grape name that you're familiar with, doesn't matter if it's...an Italian Sangiovese or Spanish Tempranillo or French Chardonnay. Those are all Vitis vinifera. So much like apples, there's variations. So within the Vitis vinifera, you have thousands, right? So I think that's how it can get a little bit, you know, how many genuses versus how many total. The number that I think is, seems the most accurate.

And this comes from the international I think it's the International Grape and Wine Growers. It's a horticultural institute. They said 60 to 65 in the United States. Most people have heard of Concord, the jelly. So, Vitus Lambrusco and Concord were kind of the big shots on the East Coast.

There's also Scuppernog and there's some random ones that some people may or may not have heard of. But Texas has the most. So within the United States of endemic species, so there's 60 to 65 that are native, 25 are endemic, and Texas has 21 of those. So, we have lots of grapes, variations of varieties that Europeans have never seen before. So, they started sending material over into Europe via London, and in the process, after London, of course, they were dispersing it with other grape growers in France.

So this is around the early 1860s, and when they sent the vines over, there was this louse, this little mite called Phylloxera. And not that big of a deal of it landing in London, because there's not a whole lot of wine growing there, but France, of course, is a different story. At that time, I think one sixth of all taxes in France came from the grape growing and wine industry.

And within a fairly short duration two thirds of the vineyards were completely gone. And we should say that this Phylloxera existed in the United States, but the grapevines in the United States were not harmed by Phylloxera because of their rootstock, which had adapted to that pest, right? Correct.

They quite literally had a... The, the, the, the roots had a thick skin the, the vinifera variety, the, the, the roots are quite thin and they are susceptible to this, this louse that chews on the roots themselves. So the species that are in the United States, they've essentially lived alongside of each, side of each other and had grown immune to their attacks.

So when it got into Europe, they didn't know what was going on. After, I think it was after 200 million acres had disappeared, they put out, you know, to all horticulturists around the world, like, someone figure this out, they were flooding vineyards, they were trying to figure out anything that would work, they could, they had no idea, again, almost 15 years, that's a long time when you're just slowly seeing the, the vines disappear.

So they had, at some point, This is something we were talking about before. Someone had realized that, okay, well, there's other grape species, and if the vinifera is not able to manage on its own the attacks from phylloxera, then grafting of some sort seems to be, in theory, that would work. And we know that there's a gentleman from Missouri, those in Missouri, we apologize but he, he gave it a shot, but apparently the varieties that they were either suggesting or getting over to France, it didn't take or it didn't work, one of the two. Now, along the way, it was Professor Viala was collaborating with this guy from Denison, Texas, named Thomas Volney Munson.

And Actually, he went by Volney, which I recently found.

Yeah. So Volney and Viala were, corresponding and at some point when they kept failing, they decided to bring a delegation. So Viola brings a delegation to Texas. And here's where the story can alter, depend on what author or which book you source. But in a nutshell, I'll give you the nutshell version. This is what I tell in my class. They make their way to Denison, Texas, and, you know, at this time, it's horse and buggies, so it's not easy to get around.

But they make their way to north of Georgetown, a place called Belton, Texas. There's an area called Dog Ridge. They filled up wagons full of clippings, because with a vine, you can clip it. and propagate that in the ground just by planting it. And they filled up multiple wagons, trained them to the East coast and then put them on a steam ship and got them into France, planted those Texas varieties into the ground, grafted the European grape on top.

So the Cabernet or the Chardonnay, and it took and absolutely solved the problem. And so at that point, there was a huge demand for Texas rootstock. So, this is actually where Onderdonk comes into play, because he had one of the largest, nurseries and so they were able to get the Texas rootstock over into Europe.

And, the fact that a guy from Texas, was so instrumental ... T. V. Munson was only the second American to be given the Legion of Merit from Napoleon III. Thomas Edison was the first. So the second American to ever get bestowed this award, is someone here in Texas we don't even know about.

 If you ask any French person, at least any French person associated with wine, they all know who he is. There are plaques throughout France, there's statues of him. Allegedly, we were looking into that. But Cognac and Denison became sister cities. And he's all but unknown.

Yeah, they were desperate. And in fact, I read that they had a huge monetary reward for anyone who could solve this problem. Yeah. I'm not sure if T. V. Munson ever got paid. I wondered that too, because I saw that too. It was something like the equivalent of two million U. S. dollars now. Yeah, I think so. So who's T. V. Munson? Now a lot of people will say, well, he's not really Texan. But I kind of go by the 80 20 rule. He lived most of his life in, in Texas. He actually has a few interesting firsts. So he's born in Astoria, Illinois. Him and his brother were the first two students at the University of Kentucky. His brother was the first graduate.

Volney was the second.  so they made their way to Texas. He first went into, Nebraska, but before that, he was fascinated with Texas and I actually don't know why it is, but he wrote his research paper on Texas horticulture winds up in what is now Texoma, which apparently was named in honor of T. V. Munson, yet it's called Texoma. Why would you not call it Munson, Munson AVA? Yeah, I don't know. And he claimed that this was one of the most diverse, grape places that he had ever come across. So he stayed put in Denison and the story goes that he traveled up to 50, 000 miles on horseback, just going all through Texas and finding grape vines.

He established vineyards in the Denison area, which Grayson College had an opportunity to preserve. They were able to preserve all his work. And I believe he created over 300 different grape species and mostly hybrids.

So that's one of the challenges here in Texas is the vinifera doesn't necessarily thrive because we have pretty extreme. environments. That's one area which I wish there was more exploration on that side. Like what, what did he do in terms of solving those problems? And why don't we see those anymore?

Shelly: One thing I read is that T. V. Munson recognized that the soil composition in Texas was very similar to France because it had what they called limey soil. Yeah. So I think that we can credit that to him, that, that was key in his figuring out what was going to work.

Clay: Yeah, calcareous soils, especially in Texas, it correlates to, you know, a lot of areas of Chablis and the Loire Valley.

We have a lot of terroir that's quite similar to France. But where it, so the species that was said that they found, which is dog ridge. It's called Vitus champanini, and we might be getting a little too technical on this, but there's basically three species native to Texas that most definitely is seen all throughout the wine world.

It's Berlandieri, Riparia, and Rupestrous. So, regardless of which one it actually was, it doesn't matter. There's, Texas rootstocks are instrumental throughout the world, and Texans should know this. We should be proud of our impact to the wine industry. Now, of course, from the French side, they were a little hesitant in the beginning because the whole reason why they're in this debacle in the beginning because of American grape farms, but it didn't come from Texas rootstock.

That I do know. It came from lambrusca grape came from the East coast. It went into London. They brought the phylloxera over. So the Texans just had to come in and sweep up after the Yankees.

I know Viala named. One of his daughters after T. V. Munson, I think also Munson named one of his kids after them, so they had a very good relationship but it's Texas has a deep history in wine, and I think that because of that gap, you know, a couple generations you know, when you tell people about Texas wine, a lot of people are like, huh?

There's wine in Texas, especially if they're, you know, not in or around the Fredericksburg area.

Shelly: You mentioned that about how the Europeans blame us for phylloxera. I was at a tasting at a prestigious champagne house at one point, and the person doing our tasting basically blamed Americans for phylloxera.

And I don't think he probably had anybody ever speak back to him, but I said, but you know who solved that? It was an American. And here's his name, and here's a little of his story. He was a little taken aback.

Clay: You should have said Texan. Not only American, but Texan also. Well, what's funny, if you were to and I suggest you try this, if you were to Google most influential people in the history of wine, you know, 5, 000 plus years, T. V. Munson's name is always in the top 5 or top 10. But why don't we know about them here? Yeah, well, you're telling the story.

Shelly: I know that we both share an interest in creating new Texas wine drinkers. And one of the ways that, that you're doing that is that you've co-founded Texas wine club. And I have a feeling probably everyone who listens to this has seen an ad for Texas Wine Club, because you guys are knocking it out of the park on marketing, but just in case someone is not familiar, can you say what Texas Wine Club is?

Clay: Yes Texas Wine Club was launched early this year, and we go out and taste wines throughout the state, now that we have, going upwards to 500, the number of courses. Not exact, but there's a lot of wineries now and we saw an opportunity to go out, taste as many wines throughout the state, and then have a selection process where we pick the top 12 wines that we come across and send those to people's doors all throughout the state of Texas.

There's so many wine drinkers in Texas, so we are. 100 percent Texas wines, for Texans, and it started, through, Kambrah Garland. So she had a tasting group in Hill Country. This is when I was at William Chris, and we would do wine tastings for industry people.

Mainly winemakers, but there was a couple wine educators. And what we would do is taste wines in similar environments from the old world. We would get wines from those regions and it was fun because the, the winemakers can get an idea of what can be done here in Texas.

We did that for almost two years, almost every two weeks. And then, the light bulb kind of went off. Josh Tye, who is also co founder, he was culinary … as interested in wine as anyone being a chef. And the idea emerged, like, why don't we take that concept of these blind tastings. I didn't mention that.

So when we do our tastings throughout Europe, we would do them blind. So we had no idea what they were and tried to figure out what they are. And we basically started doing that with Texas wineries. So we would go around pick Texas wines and every two weeks we would just taste through. No idea what the wines are.

Have a way to kind of mark and grade. Numerically which ones perform better. And that's how we pick the wine. So we don't know what they are. And it's always fun to see some surprises. So you were able to sit through a tasting yesterday and we saw a few actually. I don't know if we should say it what it is, but that I think that's one of the.

One of the more fun components is being able to discover Texas wine. So, not your, you know, your average person doesn't have the ability to get out and taste all this Texas wine. Most Texans, in my opinion, assume is that when they see that Texas wine section at their local wine shop or, or grocery store is that that's a representative of the best of Texas and it's, it's kind of the opposite.

Those wines that make it to the store are really made for that purpose. And there's nothing wrong with wines from the store. Everyone gets wines from the store, myself included. But if you're trying to explore and trying to find the best of Texas, the reality is that you've really got to get out there, right?

You have to either go to the winery or join a wine club. Those are really the two ways to do it. So then the challenge becomes, once you... Get out there and you taste one of these wines that are not readily available at your local shop. You're like, wow, these are, these are amazing. Let's, so you, you join said wine club, right?

Well, next thing you know, you have four or five wine clubs and we see that all the time. Indeed. And so that was another component that we thought was Well, something that could be attractive to Texans. that they could join one club and be able to taste wines from all over Texas. And because we know most people have, it does seem like three or four is about average.

And the other thing is, is, is we actually, and like not blowing smoke, we, we actually do promote people to go visit those wines and wineries. So the wines that get selected, we actually provide them information on that winery and how to visit them and recommend that they go taste their wines directly, and if they want to join their wine club and drop ours, we have no penalties.

We see it frequently and we love actually we just were speaking with Serrano Winery, and he said that we've sent, multiple people to their winery and they've joined and we love hearing that so

Shelly: Those are some of the most common questions. I get at the tastings that I’m doing in Dallas is where should I go? So I’m in north Texas So they want to know the closest local wineries and then if they're making a trip to Lubbock or the Hill Country or wherever? Where should we go visit to taste in person?

Clay: Yeah and they should they should Go check them out. And it's, you know, it's true about North Texas. It feels like a different country up there.

That's the other part that is, we're still exploring, you know, even though we're anchored here and wine country and Hill country there's, you know, dozens and dozens of wineries up there that I haven't had a chance to either taste directly or visit. So one of the things that now that we have somewhat of a, our name is out there in the industry.

People are submitting wines, which is great. But actually we'll, I'll be up there in a couple of weeks to speak to the North Texas Winery Association and connect with them and let them know how our program works, but it's really great for the small to midsize, but, but not exclusive. You know, we have wines from William Chris Wine Company, McPherson, Reddy again because we pick them blind and if they're from the big guy or the small guy We welcome it because we want to just give Texans a real opportunity to taste what Texans can do and it's only getting better, right?

We're still trying to figure out the varieties. There's 51 different varieties that we have in the state and you know if you look at Spain and Portugal. Portugal more. I think it's the most interesting place. They have so many different grapes. And, and who knows which, which of the grapes from Portugal would work, but as you know, it's a process.

Shelly: Yeah, and it's a multiyear investment to figure that out.

Clay: Yeah, it's a hard and long process to try to figure out what works.

Shelly: I've been saying Texas has 70 something.

Clay: I got that number from... The 2022 Texas Department of Agriculture. So it's probably, well, if you think about it, I, you know, there's going to be grapes that weren't reported. So where did you get the 70 from?

Shelly: It's also from a USDA report, but I think the more recent ones actually grouped some grapes together under other where it used to break them out okay. Some challenges getting those reports. Right. Completed.

Clay: You know, Portugal's 400 plus variety, 600 plus in Italy. I don't know what Spain has, probably a couple hundred. And then Southern France, so, still trying to figure that out. And that's just the, the vinifera. I think that, I don't know where you stand on this, but why not do hybrids?

Shelly: I think if you can make high quality wine, I don't know that most people care if it's a hybrid or a vinifera.

Clay: Winemakers seem to differ in that opinion. I don't know if it's valid or not, but you know, they're doing, are you familiar with the, the grapes that are the Walker clones that are coming out of, UC Davis.

So you, you might know there's a couple vineyards that have planted those. Mm-hmm. . Who are those?

Shelly: Well, in North Texas, Triple N Ranch Winery has two of them. Bending Branch has some, I don't know who else, but I know there are several.

Clay: So for those who don't know exactly what these Walker clones are, there's a species.Also native to Texas, but not endemic to Texas. It's Vitis arizonica. Obviously, it's in Arizona as well. And it's completely resistant to PD Pierce's disease. So by taking that plant and then, say, Cabernet Sauvignon, you, you would breed those and then you have a 50 50. You take the 50 percent with the 100 percent cab and you keep going and they've gotten up to 97%.

So there's just enough genetic material to be resistant. But the problem is, you can't call it Cabernet Sauvignon in that case. And that is seems like a small problem. But marketing is a huge component of wine, right? I don't know if they figured out the naming process yet.

Paciente Noir or something like that.

Shelly: I mean that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. But what I think might be the future for some of those grapes, at least in the shorter term, is some kind of fanciful name. Like if you think about some of the best known labels, you don't actually know what's in that blend. You just know it by its fanciful name.

Right. So, The Prisoner, or whatever. You know, these big brands that are, and the blend might change from year to year, but you just know the label and the name.

Clay: While... And I don't know if this is a trend that is either valid or that it will continue, but, and I know I've been guilty of this, is people want the single varietal wine.

Shelly: You talked about the evolution of what you enjoy in wine, what you appreciate in wine. Because I started loving wine in California and I was visiting a lot of these, you know, high end producers that tell you the single vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon usually, from this exact plot is the highest expression that a wine could possibly hope to be, right?

But what I didn't consider is all the regions of the world where blending is the tradition. So the wines of Rioja and Bordeaux and Champagne all blends. All blends. So I've backed way, way off, especially in the In a place like Texas where vintage variation is so significant. I think blending is really important to our story in the future.

Clay: Blending can be scary to some. Because it could be the equivalent of the soup of the day. You know, where they just kind of throw everything together. But at the same time, it's also arguably the finest craft or skill within winemaking. You know, Bordeaux, for example, the blends, there's no recipe winemaking in Europe, which recipe winemaking is definitely a component of new world winemaking, right?

A lot of, and I think Americans are guilty with this insert let's just say prisoner. They want prisoner to taste this the same this year as it did last vintage as it did in the vintages before, because it's a brand name. So the expectations, because of that, you're almost forcing them to manipulate the wine in order to taste like the previous vintage, right?

You know, in Europe, they recognize that it's less about the, the brand itself, and really it's more about the region and the vintage. And based upon that, you're going to have, you know, if it's drier or wetter or whatever the cold spells come and go, it dictates what's going into the grape.

Cabernet is performs better, you know, it's early budding and Merlot is later. So that's something we haven't latched onto as consumers. And so I do think it's the highest skill and there are some amazing blends out there, but there's definitely. There are some who are a little hesitant because, you know, some, there's some wineries that just kind of mix it all together and.

Shelly: That's true. That's true. You do have to know what you're getting. And I will say one of my favorite Texas Wine Club wines is a blend of six different varieties. And it's been consistently one of the favorite wines that I've poured at my tasting events. So, I always tell my little blending story, say don't think that single varietal wines are always the very best, because check out this awesome blend.

Clay: Yeah, it's something that even I'm appreciating more and more,

 One of the things we saw an opportunity to do with the Texas Wine Club is we didn't realize that education would be such an integral part.

Obviously as a wine educator, it's, it's a role that I can fulfill. I thought it'd be more involved in the creation and putting content out there, which of course we're doing. But the educational side has been something that became apparent that it was more important for those in Texas because there's a lot of varieties out there.

Not everyone is familiar with them. So one of the things that I used to do at William Chris, when people would say, what is Picpoul or what is Mourvedre even Grenache to some degree. But Roussanne, Marsanne, not everyone is familiar with it. So I would always tell them. Go and find that grape in the old world.

See what it tastes like in its place of origin and then taste the Texas wines, and in an even better situation, taste them side by side. I think that anyone who's really wants to understand Texas wine should do that.

They should go find a Tempranillo from Spain and a Tempranillo from Texas. So one of the things that we just started doing is we offer just that we'll pick in the case of a 12 pack of wines, it would be six grapes. And you would have the old world version and the Texas version and. Just give you an opportunity to see what it tastes like in its place of origin and where we're going with it.

So it's a fun way to, to learn about wine. So that's something new that we're doing.

Shelly: Tell me this outside of Texas wine. I know you drink a ton of Texas wine, but where else in the world are you drinking right now? What are you excited about?

Clay: If I'm not drinking Texas wines, it's generally going to be Georgian wines, which are tough to come by.

And no, not Atlanta, Georgia in, in Portugal. And One of the main reasons for Portugal is I'm fascinated with Alentejo because I think that is the closest analog that we have in Europe to Texas Hill Country. And with 400 plus varieties, that's, that's the motivating factor. Like that's what, what tastes good there.

And just better understanding those grapes. But there's an interesting connection between the two. Do you know what it is? Is it a great variety? No. So no. Georgian wines have a unique style of wine making that uses the quevries. Yes. And this is little known, but there's actually a D O C in aeo, I think it's called Tala D o C.

So T A L H A. That's their version of quevrie. Oh, really? And they both originated from. The same Roman I guess, ancestry. The difference is actually they use some, in some cases, the exact same vessels in Portugal has since somewhat lost their. History of, of making these, these talas. I think there's only like one or two guys left, or maybe there's only one or two making them and they're learning from the Georgians, something that's very interesting.

So sometimes they'll acquire them from Georgia, but the main differences in Georgia, they're underground and in Portugal, they're above ground. And so they, they hose them off to keep them cool. So really cool stuff. Happening in Georgia, but yeah, you always gotta keep exploring it, so those are my two spots right now.

Shelly: I love that. Have you been to the Austin Winery to see… they're working with quevries over there.

Clay: Are they really? Huh. You do see a couple places using the terracotta, but Austin Winery is a wine that was recently selected. Oh, is that right? Yeah, they have really cool things going on down there.

Shelly: Have you seen the movie, Our Blood is Wine?

It's about Georgia. It's about the country of Georgia and their wine history. And it's shot on an iPhone apparently, and it is exceptionally good. And it, I think it's on Amazon prime and it delves into a lot of the, the history around wine, viticulturally, wine making, but also just like sitting around the dining room table singing songs about wine in another language. It's very cool. You should check it out.

Clay: They get into, there's this, these Toastmasters when they drink. And apparently if you venture into Georgia and you actually get to sit around a table with locals, you're gonna have a long night, cause it's...

It's really drinking is a big part of their, their dinner and celebration. But yeah, those are, those are my two, what are you drinking right now? What's your spots?

Shelly: Well right now I am studying for French Wine Scholar in preparation for this trip I'm leading in April. We're going to the Rhone and and then ending in Bordeaux So I've been studying the Rhone chapter and the Loire chapter That's exciting and I always drink Beaujolais no matter what I'm studying.

Clay: So those are kind of my regions. Beaujolais the best maybe best value in the perhaps, although it's going up. If you get the cru, cause it's basically Burgundian wine and it's 30, 40 bucks. Yeah.

Shelly: I'm a, I'm love Gamay.

Yeah. Go drink some Beaujolais Cru. On that note, thanks for being here, Clay.

Clay: Anytime. My pleasure, Shelly.

Good talking with you.

You too.