Jackie Mancuso Brought Atlas Vineyard Management to Texas

[00:00:00] Before we get into today's podcast. Let me remind you that I'm organizing a trip to France and April 2024. It's a trip designed especially for people who are excited about Texas wine. There'll be 10 travelers, and we'll spend 10 days exploring Southern France from Marseille to Bordeaux. We'll visit a good number of wineries and vineyards. enjoy the foods of each region and see some important cultural sites too. If that sounds like something you'd like to do, email me for more information or check out my blog post on "France, 2024" at thisastexaswine.com and don't wait because the trip is already halfway sold out.

Welcome to this as Texas wine. I'm Shelly Wilfong, A wine educator, writer and consultant with a specialty in Texas wine. On this podcast, I share Texas wine news, [00:01:00] interview the most important people in the Texas wine industry, and bring you the information you need to be a more informed Texas wine drinker. Thanks for joining me on this Texas wine journey. This is episode 69. Jackie Mancuso joins me for this episode. She's vineyard manager for Atlas Vineyard Management in the Texas Hill Country. And she and her teams are responsible for a lot of the grapes that were harvested there this year. We talked viticulture, including the differences and Texas and California, where she's from. We talk about disease pressures. Picking rootstock, irrigation philosophies and more, But first, there's Texas wine news.

Texas Monthly has released the winners of this year's Vintners Cup. The 37th annual GrapeFest has just concluded and the people's choice winners were announced, and there are a couple of new places opening around the state that you might want to check out. Whether you're a new listener or a longtime fan. Welcome to This Is Texas Wine.

For the third consecutive year, Texas Monthly magazine, in [00:02:00] conjunction with the Texas Department of Agriculture's Uncorked Texas Wines program, is recognizing 12 top Texas wines. These 12 were selected by wine writer, Jessica Dupuy and master sommeliers Jack Mason and Craig Collins. They call this the ultimate case of Texas wine. They tasted 236 wines by 70 wineries to create this list of the 12 winners and 18 honorable mentions. The list includes the Bolen Vineyards 2022. Marsanne, English Newsom's 2021 Dry Riesling, Invention Vineyards 2022 Vintage Riesling, and William Chris 2022 Chenin blanc from Dell Valley. There were no rose wines this year. The remaining eight are all red and they are Agusta Vin's 2022 Reserve montepulciano, Becker Vineyards 2019 Barbera from Tallent Vineyard, CL Butaud's 2021 Grenache from farmhouse vineyards, Chateau Wright's [00:03:00] 2020 Malbec called "Point of Rocks," McPherson Cellars 2021. Counoise, Messina Hof's 2019 Paulo Sagrantino, Pedernales Cellars' 2020 Texas high Plains Grenache, and finally Skies over Texas 2021 Mourvedre. I'll share the full list, including honorable mentions in the show notes. The 37th annual GrapeFest has just concluded and the votes have been tallied for the People's Choice Awards. Congratulations to Messina Hof, Bull Lion ranch, Silver Dollar Winery, Kiepersol, and Juniper Cove Winery for winning top honors and the various categories at the wine tasting classic.

Two notable openings Baron's Creek is opening a new tasting spot and the Bishop Arts District in Dallas. This will be the fifth location for Baron's Creek and article on CultureMap Dallas reports, "they make wines from Texas grapes, the unofficial litmus test for authenticity, [00:04:00] but also use grapes from other districts in the us and Spain from vineyards owned by their wine maker, Russell Smith, formerly of Becker vineyards.

Next Pontotoc vineyards is opening a new spot in Hye called Pontotoc Vineyards' Picnic Table. Co-owners Carl Money and his wife Frances have renovated the historic gas station on the property. And have created a spot to come and taste an expanded picnic menu and wine flights around a large bar or under the Oaks. There's room for everyone, including your dogs and kids. Of course, Pontotoc is already well-known not only for their 100% Texas wine. But also for the contents of their picnic baskets which include tasty treats like pimento cheese and brownies and even sangria. Later on this property will expand further with an Onsite distillery The official opening is october 6th, but if you happen to be driving by and see cars parked there Stop in and see if you can get [00:05:00] in on a soft opening situation Find links to all these stories in the show notes at thisistexaswine.com. And that's the texas wine news

this is the time in the podcast when I ask you to do something for me, and there are a couple things that you can do today to help grow the podcast and that are free. One is to share the podcast with others. You can do that on social media, by tagging @Texaswinepod on your stories and posts. You can also review the podcast on apple podcasts and on Spotify and leave a few remarks. And finally you can visit my website to sign up for the occasional newsletter. That's where I'll tell you about my most recent wine finds and fun adventures in wine traveling. Thanks. Y'all.

Jackie Mancuso wasn't born in Texas, but she got here as fast as she could. And just in time to help wineries and the Texas hill country, mostly with everything from vineyard development, to all kinds of vineyard management, all the way through harvest. If you've wondered what it means [00:06:00] to be a vineyard manager, Jackie is here to tell you. And from what I hear, this was a much needed service and the hill country. Here's our conversation.

Shelly: Jackie, you've completed 18 harvests.

Jackie: 18 harvests this year.

Shelly: That's incredible.

Jackie: that's a long time.

Shelly: and three of those have been in Texas. But , tell me what you were doing before you got to Texas and how you started your wine career.

Jackie: So, growing up, I came from a family that lived in a city, not a large city, but a hometown. And my dad was a businessman, my mom worked for the school district after we got to a certain age, middle school.

So she raised us in elementary ages and then went back to work part time. So definitely wasn't involved in agriculture, but we had a great family friend who had a cattle ranch just on the outskirts of town. And I would love to go out there, mess around on the horses, on the, on the land. And closer to my high school [00:07:00] days, he developed a golf course on his cattle ranch.

And that is my other passion is golfing. So of course, as I turned 16 and was able to drive, I got a job working at the golf course. So here I was on what I call my unofficial grandfather's land, but also working at the golf course. So got to be around the cattle, got to be on the golf course and really follow.

His footsteps. So during high school, thinking about what I wanted to do, I decided it was a great idea for me to apply for the College of Agriculture. And so I got accepted to California State University, Chico, and entered the College of Agriculture in 2004. I plant science . ,during that time I thought about transferring to Davis or Cal Poly.

But I learned that I loved the College of Ag at Chico. It's a very small knit community. And so what I did was I did internships [00:08:00] during the summer. And so I took an internship the first year back in my hometown on a very small vineyard. And then the second summer I took an internship on a 4, 000 acre contiguous vineyard in the northern Sacramento Valley.

And so it was a true test. I was able to go and , live with my college roommates family on their ranch and commute in to the Sacramento Valley and it was stressful. It was hard. There was a lot of bugs, a lot of snakes, a lot of wildlife, and I had to really figure out if I was. ready for it.

And so it was a good test. Ultimately I loved it and that boss was the boss that was my mentor for a very, very long time. I was able to take my two internships and get myself a job right out of college.

So Rob Harris is my mentor and was my boss for a very long time. [00:09:00] And 2012, I went to work for him until I moved out to Texas.

And so he taught me everything I know now, I mean from tractor driving, truck driving, running crews, safety, all the aspects of farming grapevines development, he's taught me it all, and I, I can, you know, really say that college is great, but hands on learning is a lot more important.

Shelly: Atlas Vineyard Management is who you work for now, and that is a company that has branches throughout the U. S.

Jackie: That's correct. So Atlas Farms 6, 000 acres. They farm in Napa, Sonoma. So basically all of Northern California where there's grapevines, we have branches. And then Oregon and Washington. And I started our Texas division in 2022.

Shelly: So, were [00:10:00] you interested in coming to Texas, or was Atlas interested in, I mean, how did this come about, I guess?

Was Atlas looking into Texas anyway, and you thought that, well, that sounds interesting, or did you get them to come here?

Jackie: Nope, I got them to come here. I my husband and I, we've been together 20 years this year, and we had both ambitions to expand our careers. So, , after spending a lot of time in California, we decided it was time to move.

To a state that we might be able to expand our careers and do things, you know, more on our own. So circling back a little bit where we lived in California before we left was near Travis Air Force Base and our neighbors. We're stationed at Travis, but they were from Marble Falls, Texas, and they told us you guys got to go check out Fredericksburg, Texas You will love it.

And I was like, okay, well it happened to be COVID. And so I was like, well, let me see [00:11:00] So I called down to the wineries and I said I know it's COVID. I want to come visit you Let me know if it's possible. I don't want to book a trip. No, no come we we want you We will make it happen, whether it's a business meeting or actual tasting.

Okay, great. So this was at William Chris that I was speaking with. And so they actually made a private lunch for Bill Blackmon, my husband and myself to sit down, talk and get to know like the property, the vines. So I did that. And then they also made me two appointments at Ab Astris and Lost Draw.

So we had a great visit. It was really a nice time. And we got to tour the Hill Country during that time. So anyway, circling back, we went home, we told our family we're moving to Texas. And they didn't believe us. But we said, we're moving to Texas after the holidays. So, the holidays came and went, put the house on the market, it sold in three days, [00:12:00] and we were on the road by March 3rd.

We pulled into Texas on March 10th, and we didn't have jobs, we didn't have a house, we didn't have anything, but we had our RV and we had each other. So, and some dogs and some dogs and poodles and a cat. Okay. I didn't know about the cat. Yeah, and so Yeah, we moved in and got settled and started looking for work and we thought we would be able to find work pretty easy But we ended up not finding work that easy, but it was okay.

 I went to work for Southhold and got to experience, , more cellar life than vineyard life. And it was really fun and exciting to see the other side of the business. I hadn't done that yet. , but I also quickly understood my purpose and my purpose was to be in the fields. And so during that time at Southold I was , able to go and meet people, meet vineyard owners, and see what their needs were.

And so, I felt like I [00:13:00] did some good, research during that time, but then after I left Southhold, I did even more research, I met with vineyard owners, and decided to, you know, kind of figure out. What this area needed and so at that time I called up Atlas and said hey guys It's kind of a silver platter for you We have this many acres that I know of these people are interested in getting some vineyard management help You know, what are your thoughts and they said let's go for it.

Let's give it a try so January of 2022 I started with 7 acres of new development projects, and maybe 10 acres of vineyard management. And now we are finishing out the season of 2023, and I have 475 acres under contract. And I've developed six properties with a total of about 35 acres. [00:14:00]

Shelly: That's incredible. So, I wasn't familiar with Atlas before. So it's vineyard management, so planting new vineyards, and then managing existing vineyards, and then what I see a lot of. Posts about, of course, is harvest.

Jackie: Mm-hmm. Yes. So during season we have two options. We have full management, which is when I basically take over your property and do everything, all day-to-day aspects.

Customers can be hands-on in any form, but if they don't want to be, I'm happy to run the property. Or we have what we call farm labor contractors. So when they need me to come in and prune or they need me to come in and move wires, they call me up and I come in for a day or two to get the job done.

Other than that, they're responsible for their vineyard and telling me when they need me back. The next option would be a development project. So you get a client who has land and they want to develop it. I come out there, I survey the land, take soil samples, do some recommendations on what kind of [00:15:00] rootstocks they might want, some varietals that do well in this area that are desirable, and then we decide, you know, what kind of spacing and what kind of acres we want to do, and we go from there.

Shelly: When you were in California thinking about Texas, I mean, what did you think you would experience viticulture wise, and how has that been either true or not true? You said you were worried about the heat. I mean, I can't imagine going from lovely Sonoma to this brutal Texas heat, but there are probably even more surprises than that.

Jackie: Yeah I would say I was more concerned about, like, the snakes and scorpions and the wildlife that you guys have down here. But it's been completely opposite. I would say I had more interaction with snakes in California than I do here. I had a property on top of Sonoma Mountain, and we called it our snake ranch.

And it was just loaded with rattlesnakes. I actually bought rattlesnake proof boots, or snake proof boots, for that ranch only. , but coming down to Texas, I was [00:16:00] very nervous about the heat. I do like the heat. I would say I prefer heat over cold, but Texas is a lot more, intense than California.

California, you get cold mornings, so you get a little bit of coolness to get your work done before it gets real intense. And then when it's intense, it's usually for a couple hours at most, and then it cools back off. So, , 2021 was like... The best year to come to Texas because it rained every other day and I think the temperature maybe got to 92 every day So I was kind of like, okay, I could do this and then 2022 came in and it was like slapping the face you know, okay, here we go 100 degrees every day and That's when I started Atlas so we had to really buckle down and figure out how we were gonna acclimate to this and keep production up in California, they have some pretty strict labor laws.

So at 95 degrees, you basically can't work. And [00:17:00] Texas, we don't have those labor laws. But of course, I'm trained in California labor laws. So I'm more serious about like monitoring men after a certain, you know, degree. And then our heat index is a big, player here versus California. So, we don't typically work 8 hour days.

We'll work 6 hour days. We'll do 6 days a week when we need to. , I tell people this every weekend. If you start your day at 7am in the vineyard or 6am in the vineyard, and you're out there as the temperature rises, you're acclimating with the temperature every hour. If you choose to go out to the vineyard at 10am, And you're inside until 10 a.m. It feels very hot. And it's a little more intense. So I feel like the fact that we start our day so early and we stay out there, it's not as bad.

Shelly: so you put together a team of men, primarily, I'm guessing, all men, you referred to men. You put together this team. [00:18:00] Did you bring some people from California? Or have they found their way here to work for you? Or have you trained people, , in the methods that you want them to, to use in the vineyard?

Jackie: So, Atlas. has, , been generous and helping me get started in the first few months in 2022 with some established men. Those men stayed for pruning, maybe six weeks, and then they went home. And that time I was able to secure H2A men from Mexico. And so in 2022 we had eight men that worked alongside me. And between those men and myself, we visited all the vineyard sites and did everything from pruning to harvest. , in 2022, I had my permit in place for H2A, and I brought up 24 men from Mexico.

And during that time, I also hired Adrienne Ballou. And so she has been my right hand and awesome teammate to get this job done. , so between her and I, [00:19:00] we manage the 24 men. We have them divvied up between three crews, which usually they're working on three different properties. But if it's a bigger property and we have the work, I'll put two on one property.

Okay, 24 men. Wow,

that's a lot. It is a lot, and... , I will say, there's a lull between pruning and bud break. And every year it's the same thing and everybody stresses out.

What are we going to do with these guys? There's no work. And it did get a little stressful. But it was about 48 hours and people started calling me and saying, Okay, can you come do this? You know, can we start development projects? And so, 24 was the right number this year. I was worried that I bit off more than I could chew but it was the right number.

We stayed busy, I would say somewhere between 35 and 40 hours a week per man was guaranteed. And so those [00:20:00] men now permanently live here?

No. So, with the H2A program, they have to go home for three months a year. So, they're still here with me now and they'll go home in the next month.

Shelly: Okay, and then hopefully you'll get back some of the same guys. Now they're trained.

Jackie: So, last year's eight men did not return. They were sent to California. , basically when you gain experience in the field, the trade you're working in, you can increase your pay, you can increase where you want to work, your, you know, seniority, your status. So, these men would rather go to California because the H 2A labor rate there is about four to five dollars higher per hour.

Oh, interesting. It's very different. And so with Texas, I had to take all new men that had never been a part of the program.

So that meant I got a lot of training on me, and it worked out great. , the men have been wonderful. , I have, you know, been able to make relationships [00:21:00] with all of them and see their strengths. And then each crew has strengths in whether it's development, young vine training, or , adult vine training.

And so I'm able to put the proper crew on the proper task.

Shelly: , I saw that you started your harvest this year in East Texas, so I didn't know that you went that far out.

Jackie: Well, if they call and I got the time, sure, but I don't always have the time. But, yes, so this is our second year going to East Texas. We went out there last year and we picked Blanc du Bois for William Chris and they asked us to go back this year.

I took a month to respond to the email because I was a little scarred from the previous year. , the humidity is the next level out there and, we tried to , tackle too much in one night the first year. We tried to do two ranches. So after deciding we would go, I said, okay, but we're going to do it over two nights, not one night.

And so it was [00:22:00] great, but then one of the customers applied chemical and so we couldn't even It We had to tackle two ranches in two nights. We had to go two weeks in a row. Oh. But it was fine. , we had a great time. One of the ranches has a second home, so they put them in in their second home and they loved it.

And I stayed in the winery slash office slash lab pull out couch. And it was great. I, I honestly enjoyed it and I look forward to doing it again next year.

Shelly: One of the things that I noticed in going through your social media was that the croploads were really different from last year to this year. Can you talk about why that would be and how you approach that?

And I also, I just remembered what I wanted to ask you. It's about harvesting. Do you always do hand harvesting? Are you also running mechanical harvesters? And how do you decide?

Jackie: Yeah, so let's start with the cropload. Last year, The crop load was very light. , [00:23:00] what happened was we didn't have any spring rains.

We had a very dry winter. And so these vines, they ended up setting clusters. So we had two clusters per shoot, but the berries didn't pollinate. And so we had less berries per cluster and less weight per berry. So last year's harvest was lighter. by a significant amount. This year we had the spring rains that got our canopy up and established before we started that drought, and we were able to keep our soil profiles going after that with irrigation.

So our crop load, we had the two clusters per shoot. And we had the berry weight. So, we saw a significant increase in our crop this year. Last year's crop, we still think, is a great crop. We think the flavors, the dynamics of the smaller crop and the lighter clusters is going to produce a flavor profile that will be much different than [00:24:00] other years.

This year, I really think the heat intensified things. We will see what the flavors do on it. But from what I saw during every night's pick, the grapes look great, they tasted great. What we battle here in Texas, which is different from California, is because we have such high heat, we have high pH. , so that's a challenge that the winemakers get to play with.

It's out of my hands for the most part. , but yeah, harvest was great. We picked pretty much six nights a week for nine weeks straight. So last year during harvest we picked with eight men approximately 80 tons. And this year during harvest for nine weeks we picked 280 tons. So all of that was by hand.

Usually it's seven men picking, one man driving the tractor, and myself or Adrienne [00:25:00] was on the back pulling leaves. on monitoring the crews, making sure we weren't getting anything left behind. , and so we were able to pretty much take care of every customer that called. It was a very successful harvest.

We were very tired. , but I think everybody ended on a high note. We probably had a hundred bee stings and one snake bite. Oh, ouch. The snake bite luckily was non venomous, , and no reaction. It was a little scary.

Shelly: So you harvest at night so it's a bit cooler. Do you start at midnight or something?

Jackie: We arrive to the ranch at 8. We start at 8 30 p. m. If the customer wants us to start later, we do. We have no problem starting at any hour of the night. , and more depends on the crop load for that night, how much they need picked. But if they need eight tons picked and they don't want us to start to 2 a. m., I throw two crews at it so we can get, you know, the crop done in less time or half [00:26:00] time.

So depending on the varietal, depending on the canopy management, We can roughly pick a ton in an hour, sometimes faster, sometimes slower. Canopy management is a huge part of that, though, you know, if we're not shoot thinning, if we're not pulling leaves, if the men have to look for the clusters, it slows them down a lot.

Of course, if you have, , Toriga national or some of these smaller clusters, it takes a lot longer to get that one ton.

Shelly: When you worked in California, how many varieties were you managing on that vineyard?

Jackie: So my first job out of College was at Wente Family Vineyards, and we probably had 35 varietals. Okay, so that's more than I would have expected. Yeah, and it was crazy, and so when I got to Texas and I saw how many varietals we have, I was like, Oh, we're kind of back to the Wente days. , but then I left Wente after about four years and I went to Sonoma and we focused on Chardonnay and Pinot Noir.

And so it wasn't necessarily about the varietals, [00:27:00] but about the clones. So we would have multiple clones of Chardonnay and multiple clones of Pinot Noir and you farm them like you would farm different varietals. Every clone needs something different. Every clone has a different pruning style. , so we had a little bit of Zinfandel, a little bit of Cabernet, but for the most part it was Pinot Noir and Chardonnay for my last ten years in California.

Shelly: Are there some, , philosophies or techniques or technology that you brought to Texas, that Atlas brought to Texas that were kind of novel to this area in the Hill Country?

Jackie: No, I think Texans are doing a great job. I think honestly, what we struggle with is having the hands to get the work done.

But what we are doing is we're doing what needs to be done. We just need to do it in a timely manner and we need to be able to get it. done maybe a little more sophisticated. , something that I would like to bring to the Hill Country is field grafting, and so I am working on that [00:28:00] currently. Tell me more about that.

So, field grafting would be when we plant the rootstock only in the ground the first year, and the second year we come in and we put the scion in the field, so we graft it. So you're able to determine your root stock based on your soil samples. You plant that in the spring, just like you would plant a normal grapevine that's already grafted in the nursery.

Except for this one, it's just root stock. You grow it just like you would a normal grapevine for the first year. A little less labor intensive, little less, , let's say we don't really need to worry about disease pressures as much. , and then year two, you pick your scion, so your varietal and then your clone.

And we bring in the grafters and they come in and they graft that budwood onto your root stock that has a year of root development already. So year two, we're able to get the trunks, we're able to bring that wood all the way up to the cordon wire. And then year three, [00:29:00] we can lay down arms and select maybe, you know, one cluster per shoot on maybe four or five shoots.

So half ton to the acre at most. , so this is something I haven't seen done in Texas. I did touch on it a little bit at Southold. This year I have brought it to the High Plains. I was able to graft over five acres at Lost Draw Vineyards. They had a five acre block of Sagrantino and we moved it to Tempranillo.

Shelly: So, if you Already have an established root system, but you want to change, that's another time you can use field grafting. So, you said... From Sagrantino to Tempranillo?

Jackie: That's correct. So those vines were established. They were, I want to say, somewhere around the 8 to 10 years in age. And so what we do is we call top working it.

And we leave more of the trunk. And then we graft on two buds on either side [00:30:00] of that trunk. And then those buds take off. So, we were able to do that in May. And they have cordon arms tied down.

Shelly: So when you have a customer that calls you, , that wants to develop a new vineyard, you mentioned that you do soil samples and that perhaps if you were going to use the field grafting method, maybe the rootstock is the next choice. What are some things that help you decide how to pick a rootstock?

Jackie: Great question. So what we look at is the soils. , if it's clay, if it's loam and sandy loam, if it's real rocky, what our goal is for that vine in total. So do we want to create young, , small vines with , let's say less clusters per vine and a smaller vine. Do we have a very rocky section that we know this vine is going to struggle just from the soil condition so we need a more robust rootstock that's going to have the power to dive deep?[00:31:00]

, and then the second part of that would be nematodes. So we sample for nematodes. Nematodes feed on the roots and they are microscopic so you can't just dig up and say, oh, I don't see any nematodes. No, you have to send the soil into the lab and they look under the microscope for the nematodes.

And then there's multiple types of nematodes and depending on what type of nematode you have will help me determine what kind of rootstock we should plant. So, what I'm finding here is we do have nematodes and we are still using rootstock that is not. A good choice for nematodes.

So people are having declining vineyards, and they are not quite sure why, so we're sampling the soil to see, do you have nematodes, okay, this is the rootstock we chose, okay, so let's do some soil injected, , applications, and that way we can kind of control the population. And the population is to plant a cover crop.[00:32:00]

And so, if we have a nematode population in our vineyard, we plant a cover crop and let's say a cover crop would be a brassica mix and that would attract the nematodes towards the center of the vineyard rows, feeding on these cover crop roots and away from the vine roots.

Shelly: Interesting. Cover crops has come up a lot as I've talked to people about like trying to be more sustainable and For water retention purposes and just to care for the soil, I guess Is that something that you are seeing more of or do you encourage that?

Jackie: I definitely encourage it I think a ground cover in general is the right answer sustainably wise always want to have some sort of ground cover But if we have a reason to disturb that native grass, we can seed in or drill in a cover crop that is beneficial for your vineyard. So if your vineyard's lacking some nitrogen, we can do legumes.[00:33:00]

, if we have a really heavy clay, and we're trying to change the soil 10, 15 years, but if we consistently... So in a cover crop every year, a legume cover crop every year, we will see that change.

Shelly: Can you talk a little bit about your philosophy about water management and how, how and when you water the vineyard?

Jackie: Yes, I do believe that we need to understand our soils first, our root system second, and then Irrigation is in a whole, you know, evaporation, what time we're applying the water, and looking at the vine, , before we decide how many hours and how often. So, there's a lot of factors I like to use before I determine how many hours I'm going to apply.

Shoot tips on a vine is very important. I think active shoot tips is a good sign [00:34:00] that you're doing something correct. Understanding your soil type, is that clay, so is the water going to retain into a smaller section, is it going to stay closer to the roots, is it sand, is it going to go straight down, you know, where do we put our emitters, how far away from the vine, how close to the vine.

Those are all factors that I think about when I'm determining how often and how much irrigation. So, for example, we have a young vineyard. Well, the vine root system is probably less than 12 inches in the first year. Second year, we're getting a little deeper. So, to put on six to eight hours would make no sense.

We're wasting water, and water's a precious resource. So, we want to do shorter sets more frequently to make sure those vines are able to take up the water we're giving them without wasting.

Shelly: So, what's the right answer today is going to be different next year as the roots develop. Correct. Okay. , we talked [00:35:00] about nematodes, but what about Pierce's disease?

Jackie: That is a huge problem here in the hill country. I am blown away at how bad it is. In California, we had a lot of. , help, support, grants, but we also only had two, maybe three vectors that were carrying this disease. So, we had the meetings and in these meetings, if you had one vine in your backyard, you needed to be at that meeting and you needed to be following the rules and so, it was very important that everybody participated in the program to eradicate the sharpshooters and eradicate these, you know, Insects that were causing this really, really bad, , issue with, you know, vineyards throughout the nation.

And so when I moved here to Texas and I saw the Pierce disease tenfold, I was, I was blown [00:36:00] away. And, you know, learning that we have, I think 18 vectors here, that's a huge difference. That's a really hard thing to control when you have 18 vectors versus two or three vectors. So I feel like Pierce disease is likely here to stay.

But I also feel like we need to do a better job as a community to make sure everybody understands not only what to do to protect your vines, but then what to do once you see pierce disease, I think injecting chemicals into your, Irrigation system isn't common sense, isn't understood by everybody how important it is.

And so getting that imidacloprid in on the right time, twice a season, you know, those things aren't, aren't easy. And not everybody has an injection system. So they're spraying it on and that's not as effective, you know, that last 14 days through [00:37:00] the drip system, it lasts 30 days, 45 days.

Shelly: What does it look like in the vineyard?

Jackie: So what I teach my men is when you see islands of green and islands of brown on the lignified canes this time of year. And it's, it's pretty prominent. As soon as you notice it, you'll be like, okay, I know what Pierce's disease is.

The other thing to look for is matchsticks. Matchsticks is what we call the petiole, and the leaf blade has fallen off. So you have your cane, you have your petiole, but no leaf blade. And so it looks like a matchstick. So you look for the matchsticks, look for the islands of green, and then... If you're lucky and you still have leaves, you can look for the bloodline veins going through the green leaves.

, but that's not always just Pierce Disease, that could be other diseases.

Shelly: And will it kill a vine or just harm the productivity?

Jackie: Initially harm the productivity, but the bacteria that's inserted into the vine from the vector [00:38:00] is slowly girdling the vine. So slowly stopping the sap flow.

Shelly: Well, it sounds like the California uthorities who are working on Pierce disease maybe have made some progress and I hope that it reaches Texas because if it's ten times more of a problem here, then we need to throw some resources

Jackie: at it too.

 Yes, , they are working on Pierce resistant vines varietals. They're working on them in Davis.

Yeah, those Walker varieties? Yeah. So, they are Pierce resistant in California. Are they Pierce resistant in Texas? Have you farmed any of those? No, but I hear we have some here in the hill country. Yeah,

Shelly: So you decided on Hill Country, even though 75 percent or so of the grapes grown in Texas are in the High Plains, so tell me about that.

Jackie: I did decide on the Hill Country because that's where we visited. I was told from day one, the High Plains is less than [00:39:00] exciting. And so I've been up there a few times. I don't think it's undesirable, but I, I love the hill country. And I In terms of a place to live? In terms of a place to live. The vineyards up there are much more extensive, are much more farther along in their developments, and their, you know, management.

It is much more of a mechanical farmed atmosphere, , so yeah, I mean, I get calls all the time to go up there, and it's not out of question, it's just finding enough resources to work with. Right now, you know, Atlas is run pretty slim here in Texas, Adrienne and I have done the bulk of it, I've recently hired a Texas Tech student, and so she's been brought on in the last month and doing awesome.

And I see a lot of potential with her. , but yeah, I'm definitely looking for a little more, help so I can get out and do more consulting [00:40:00] and then hopefully expand. I was. Asked to go to the High Plains for harvest this year, and I almost considered it. But after nine weeks of picking in the hill country, I said, I think I'm good.

Shelly: Yeah. Well, it sounds like they've started harvesting some things, but there's a lot still on the vine out there.

Jackie: Yeah. I think the heat has really It's pushed a lot of stuff along quickly, and then it's stalled some stuff out.

Shelly: So what you hear in the textbooks is that after, like, 95 degrees, that vines no longer continue with their normal photosynthesis.

So the sugar production, or phenolics development, everything just kind of shuts down.

Jackie: Yep. That's correct. That's correct. Okay. Yep. So to go back to irrigation. You know, if we're irrigating at 2 o'clock and it's 100 degrees, there's a good chance that vines not taking that water up, at least not to full capacity.

So irrigating in hours of the day and night. where the vine can transpire [00:41:00] is very important.

Shelly: I didn't even think about water uptake wouldn't work as well. I guess everything just doesn't work as well. Just like we, just like when I go outside when it's 105. I don't work as well either.

Jackie: I'm headed to the Davis Mountains on Sunday.

Shelly: I love the Davis Mountains. Yeah.

Jackie: Are you going to see vineyards? I am. I have a new development project that I'll be starting. looking at for the first time and getting, , things organized and I have some clients that I'm going to visit and see what they might be looking for needing. It'll be my first visit out there.

I'm pretty excited to see and experience what all the Davis Mountains have.

Shelly: That's very exciting. I have their weather on my weather app and every time I look at it. I'm like man. What am I doing here?

Jackie: Yeah, that's the other thing. I'm pretty excited about It's gonna be in the low 80s [00:42:00] by Tuesday Wednesday next week here Yeah,

Shelly: and possibility of rain I saw in the high plains next week, so

Jackie: just not good We're not because we're that we're

Shelly: too close to harvest at this point.

Jackie: We don't want rain in the high plains quite yet Another month. Yeah

Shelly: One of the questions I think I'd sent you is like, what are you doing differently here in Texas? And maybe it's nothing, but are you doing do you think there's more of in your development here, maybe?

Or, I don't know, I don't have any idea what the answer could have been, but I just wondered if you have a different set of... Priorities here versus like what somebody may be working in California would have.

Jackie: So some things that vary or differ from here in Texas versus, California in my experience is the development of Vineyard management.

I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it but then your management is a new thing To a lot of Texans around here. And so [00:43:00] when I say, well, I'm a vineyard management company, they say, well, what does that do? And I said, well, I come in and I. can either help you with one task or I can help you with the entire farm, the entire vineyard.

And so it's been fun, exciting to teach these guys, you know, what a vineyard management company does, what we can offer you. And really there's no limits. You know, if they say, I need your guys to help me build a fence today. Not a problem. We'll be there. I need your guys to move wires today. Not a problem.

I need your guys to trench new irrigation lines. Not a problem. So, it's been really good to get on these farms, get to know all of the different personalities, and show them what Atlas can offer. We're very flexible. In California, I feel like most of the vineyards are very [00:44:00] established and they want full management.

So it's more rare to be a farm labor contractor. It's more common to be full management. So when I knew of Atlas while I was working in California, we hired Atlas as a full management vineyard operation. They came in and they did everything. My boss and I, at the time, we oversaw their day to day. And we did the most uptick operations and made sure that they were doing what we wanted them to do.

And then Atlas can be their pest control advisor. Scouting the vineyards but during my time in Sonoma, I was our pest control advisor. So, I scouted our vineyards weekly and I reported Atlas what I was seeing and then they would spray appropriate chemicals. So, things like that are still kind of being developed here in Texas.

I wouldn't say we have pest control advisors. We kind of all just work together, we put our [00:45:00] heads together and we brainstorm and we know what, what diseases are coming about, depending on what month, what season we're in, and what insects to be looking for. But I think what Texas can benefit from is more chemical advisors and more chemical companies coming down here and seeing what we struggle with and educating us on their products so we can be sustainable and using.

Different chemistries at the appropriate time and not constantly. using the same chemical program every year.

Shelly: Maybe you can convince someone to come down here in that role.

Jackie: I'm working on it. Okay, good. I'm working on it. I think there's a lot of opportunity. I've spoken to chemical companies and Texas is very wild west.

Shelly: And a chemical advisor doesn't necessarily mean more chemicals. It may just mean the better use of chemicals.

Jackie: Exactly, exactly. So I like to remind people that sustainable farming is not [00:46:00] organic farming. It's using the proper products at the right time and sustainable. So, In California, we were very good about always using the softest chemicals possible.

We never used chemicals that had danger as their caution word. We like to use chemicals that had caution, maybe warning, depending on the situation. So these chemicals are often safer than your household bleach.

Shelly: Very cool. Any other like service provider type of roles that you would like to see come to Texas?

Jackie: Let's see.

I would like to see our winemakers be more active with me with the vineyard owners and throughout the season. So from pruning all the way through harvest, getting in the field monthly to make sure that we understand what we're trying to accomplish to get these wines to [00:47:00] table and be a partner, not just consumer.

Mm hmm. Not just show up at harvest day. Yeah. So, I think that's a place where we can improve. I'm not saying that we're not already doing that. I'm just saying I would like to see more winemakers reach out to me and say, Jackie, let's look at the pruning together before we get started. Maybe it's a good time to reset the cord on arms.

Maybe let's try You know, these 10 lines and do cane pruning and see what we can do with that this year. I've done a lot of cane pruning. That's basically all we did in California for Sonoma. So, I think it would be a great thing for us to bring here to Texas with all of our wood diseases that we do have.

And so I would like to see these winemakers come out and be interested in the grape vines from January to August.

Shelly: I'm sure you feel like , a significant portion of your job is done when those grapes are harvested. and off to the client. But do you also [00:48:00] enjoy tasting the wine? Are you, are you a wine person?

Jackie: Oh yes, I love my wine. That is an understatement. I do love red wine more than I love white wine, but I drink both. I think that two things, yes, it's a relief when the fruit is off the vine, but what we differ here in Texas versus California, our harvest may in July and August, well, that's still five.

sometimes before, you know, our first freeze. And so it's very important that we take care of our canopies and don't let them defoliate too soon. So if we're restricting water up to the harvest, it's important that we give it all the water it wants post harvest to keep those canopies healthy and happy.

If we defoliate too soon, then the vines are going to struggle to retain those carbohydrates and [00:49:00] amino acids for the next season's bud break. So it's very important that canopy management continues post harvest. But yes, it's, it's been great. I have a few winemakers that have invited me in to taste the wines as they're going through fermentation and post fermentation. I've really enjoyed that.

Shelly: Well, I'm glad that you've come to Texas and I know a lot of, , wineries and other vineyard managers are thrilled that you're here to, to help and provide expertise. I'm glad that you were willing to come on and

tell us about what you do.

Jackie: Yeah, it's been great. I've had a really great time getting to know the different winery and vineyard owners. Texas has been very warm and welcoming and I look forward to continue to build Atlas up here.

Shelly: Good deal.

Thanks, Jackie. Stay tuned for demerits and gold stars or something like that.

Outro Music[00:50:00]

I'm gearing up for the fall podcast season: scheduling interviews and editing recordings. I'm also seeking some new sponsors for this space. So if your target market is Texas wine professionals, Or enthusiastic wine consumers or just plain old Texans. We should talk, reach out to find out how to put podcasts advertising, to work for you. And if you found value from this podcast, I invite you to consider supporting the podcast with the donation. You can do that on the website at thisistexaswine.com and then click support the podcast.

And now it's time for demerits and gold stars. There seems to be some good that comes with some bad and it's not always clear. What's a demerit and what's a gold star. Take this for instance. Texas wine and wine tourism is getting some great national press lately, super, but the headlines of several of those articles include [00:51:00] the dubious statement that Texas wine country is the number two wine destination in the United States. But guess what, as far as I've been able to uncover that statement was true in 2010, according to Orbitz, but there's no indication that that's true today. Maybe Texas is number one. Who can really say?

Another great bit of news in Texas, is that Birdie's restaurant in Austin was just named Food and Wine Magazine's 2023 Restaurant of the Year. It looks and sounds great. Birdies features a 250 bottle wine list overseen by one of the co-owners and the article in food and wine states that "the list manages to be both deeply interesting and approachable brimming with highly drinkable bottles. The co-owner bounces from table to table, dropping stories and charm and convincing diners to try bottles that they may have never considered."

I know what you're thinking. You're [00:52:00] wondering how many Texas wines are on their 250 bottle wine list. I can answer that assuming that the online wine list is still accurate. There would be two, two Texas wines out of 250. At food and wine magazine's, 2023 restaurant of the year.

So is that a gold star or a demerit?

I'll leave that up to you to decide.

Well, that's it for this episode, I'll be back in two weeks with an interview with Paul and Merrill Bonarrigo, the co-founders of Messina Hof Winery. Until then you can get in touch, send your feedback, questions or ideas for future episodes. To Texaswinepod@gmail.com. Thanks to texas wine lover website for promotional assistance check out tx wine lover.com and download the app to help you plan your next trip To a texas winery Thanks for listening cheers y'all [00:53:00]