Messina Hof Winery Co-Founders Paul and Merrill Bonarrigo

Shelly: [00:00:00] We are sitting here in Grapevine, Texas, and we're on the eve of the 37th annual Grapefest, and I got a little nugget out of your book that I reread yesterday and learned.

That perhaps if it wasn't for you talking about Texas wine at a conference, Grapefest may have never started. So, Merrill, do you want to talk about how that all came to be?

Merrill: Isn't that amazing? P. W. McCallum, who is the gentleman that made all this happen, really, shared that story just today with his, his group that came in from Barossa and Scotland.

And I love to hear that story over and over again because it so reminds me of how we got started in the beginning. It was one of those things that wasn't planned, but it happened, right? The Lord just provided that opportunity and opened a door and we walked through it. And I happened to be speaking [00:01:00] in P.W. said it was 1981, but it was at a conference in Wichita Falls. Texas Highways Magazine flew me there to share about the new burgeoning Texas wine industry because we had all just gotten started. And I had my slideshow, and I had the wines, and I got there, we flew in, we drove to this conference, and we had the wine in the trunk.

And P. W. McCallum just happened to be there when we opened the trunk, and I was trying to get the wine out to take in, and he volunteered to carry my case of wine in. That's how we first met, and he was in the audience. that I was sharing this with. Now, fast forward years later, when he is the Convention and Bureau Chief here, he decides to do GrapeFest because he sees grapevine [00:02:00] as significant an icon to the Texas wine industry.

And that's how we got started. That's how GrapeFest got started. All because of He just happened to be there, which I don't believe in just happened. I just think it was a God thing. Well, that's how we got started too at the winery, because Paul was this great physical therapist who just happened to have a patient who was a graduate student at A& M working on his dissertation in great feasibility in Texas.

And it was through their conversation and therapy that we ever got started planting.

Shelly: Anyway, I put those two together on my notes because I thought both of these instances, this, this chance meeting that might not have been just chance have really set the path for you. So do you want to say a little bit about Ron Perry?

Paul: Yes, Ron sprained his ankle playing intramural basketball. He's referred to me. I'm rehabbing him. He talks about his [00:03:00] Portuguese background. My family is Italian. And his family was involved in grape growing in California. And so, Ron explained to me at the time that the A& M was given some money to investigate where grapes would do best in the state. It was not his PhD. His PhD was on rootstock development. We had another meeting with Ron about two months ago. Hadn't really met. Ron for years, and then we decided that we should revisit the whole story again, just to get clarity on, from his perspective, because we, we had our perspective, but I wanted to get Ron's perspective, and at the time at A& M the Dean of Horticulture was a Mormon, and A& M had gotten a bunch of money to see where wine grapes would do best, and the Dean, [00:04:00] gave the money to Ron to do the research.

So we were one of a few vineyards planted in different parts of the state to see what varieties would do best. And so we had 14 varieties that were planted in, at Messina Fof in Bryan, and those same 14 varieties were planted in other vineyards around the state. And you know, some of the varieties did real well and some of them didn't do very well.

And yet, those varieties that didn't do well at our place did very well in West Texas. So, Ron started mapping out where vinifera, which is the European grape, probably should grow, and where French American hybrid grapes should grow, and where Native American grapes should grow. And we concluded that at our vineyard, the black Spanish or Lenoir was very suitable.

Blanc de Bois did [00:05:00] not exist at the time, so that was not even a even a consideration at the time. So, basically what we did is we planted one variety from Arkansas that still lives today. And we now call it Messina Hof White. It's still growing fine. Later we planted Blanc de Bois but the 18 of the 22 acres is Lenoir, so it's our dominant grape and it's what we produce as port.

And Ron was at A& M from the mid 70s to the mid 80s, then he moved on to Michigan where he became the Dean of Horticulture and and now his son graduated from Michigan State. He claims to be the only graduate that actually completed the full program and and Ron has recently retired. So we really got a chance to see the full circle of what happened to Ron Perry because you know, we knew Ron when he was at A& M we met him once, once [00:06:00] later In the hill country, but then we had a chance to have dinner and really catch up and really get the whole story of Ron Perry.

Shelly: That's great. I actually watched that clip and that was a fun reunion to see and also to know that his son is now one of the premier winemakers in Michigan, so Absolutely. I'll, I'll actually put a link to that if people wanna go watch that.

Paul: Yeah, and, and you know, they're, cold climate, really cold climate.

And when we visited with his son, his son talked about how hard it is for them to get full ripening. So they do an outstanding job with white grapes and sparkling sparkling. They really do great work, but the reds are really challenging. And yet he was producing some very nice red wines.

Shelly: I found it fascinating to read this book “Family, Tradition, and Romance: the Messina Hof Story”, and a few years ago, you guys sent me a copy of that, and I, I read it at the time, but I really went back through it last night, and, and refreshed my memory on the story, and [00:07:00] I got such a kick out of a lot of the stories of the early Messina Hof, when you were operating first, before you even started operating as a winery, and you had planted the, the a bunch of Christmas trees because you thought you might have a Christmas tree farm.

And then later, when you started your small winery and you were operating out of a mobile home, you had guests in the house and you came out one Sunday morning and there were guests in your living room. I mean, so many stories and I'm glad that that you took the time to write this book. It seemed like that was a project when we were kind of shut down for COVID that you really took a minute to to reminisce and put some of that down on paper, so that's really a gift, and I'm glad that we have that as the Texas wine community to refer back to because you talk about so many of the pivotal points of Texas wine history, and I'm sure it brought up a lot of fun memories for you guys to put that together.

Merrill: It did, and I think everyone has stories, but they often get lost, you know, because they don't take the time to write them down or someone else [00:08:00] doesn't. So, we were actually thankful for that time, that focus time and opportunity to be able to gather them all up and put them together again.

Paul: Because people see Messina Hof today, but they don't remember or didn't know what Messina half looked like way back in the eighties.

You know, when you have a 40 year old mobile home, that is your winery and a carport that has Grape wine tanks that are from the dairy industry you know, we've come a long way and you know, the struggles that we had and I think, I think explaining the struggles I think brings the humanity behind our industry because many wineries today are built and they're fantastic places right from the start and they really don't have a humble beginning.

And unfortunately, we see a lot of those types of wineries fail because I think [00:09:00] you really have to appreciate a humble beginning many times before you can appreciate the success that you wind up getting with a lot of hard work.

Merrill: And don't you think it gives hope as well to others who perhaps wouldn't try because it seems overwhelming, but they see that there has been success from humble beginnings.

And so they're more willing to try to take that risk.

Shelly: Anymore, it seems like people might not always be as, as honest on social media because that's how generally we're watching new wineries spring up and we see only what they're posting on social media, which is maybe all the pretty parts, not the struggle.

Paul: Yeah. I mean you know, the thing that amazed me people ask this, what type of economic background did we have? And I said, well, my mother was an Italian American who grew up in the depression and she taught me Mama Rosa economics. And it was a very simple economic issue. If you don't have the money in your pocket, you can't [00:10:00] afford it.

And that, that's how we we developed Messina Hof. It was from the ground up. I think we had 18 developments that, that were in different 18 phases. And it was very wise for us to do that. Pay as you go. Yeah, pay as you go. In the book we talk about Merrill did a fantastic job of presenting to the bank a $250,000 proposal for a loan.

And when we concluded the, the meeting, he told us, he said, congratulations, you should self fund it. And I went out, out of the meeting, and I walked up to Merrill and said, congratulations. And I asked her what type of a loan self funding was, and she said, he turned down the loan. That was a blessing.

That was a blessing. It was truly, we were not ready for that. Much money to be infused into the winery at the time. And I, I have always told him he was the best banker we ever had [00:11:00] because he turned down a loan.

Shelly: It worked out in the end. Another thing that struck me from the early days is really how much of a partnership the winery was in the development.

And Paul, I feel like you're the one now who is more in the limelight, but Merrill, you were, you were running this while Paul was He's still a physical therapist and had his own practice. And I loved hearing about how you really incorporated a lot of the cooking aspects, the food pairings and the cooking school and time.

And that was such an important part of it that I know that Karen and Paul are also continuing to this day.

Merrill: They are. I'm so excited to see what, they're taking it to the next level too and I'm very thankful for that. We had the opportunity early on to go to Europe. And we were able to experience wine and food of different regions in several different countries as we were getting started.

And just that whole, that whole social and cultural [00:12:00] base of family at the table and the food and the wine and how it all went together touched us. We wanted to be able to bring that to Texas and to Messina Hof and make that the focal point. So, I think that was also part of the way we could then share.

with other people, because it was all about education. Nobody knew Texas wine. Nobody really thought there could ever be Texas wine. We were told so many times, you can't grow grapes in Texas. You can't make great wine in Texas. Can't, can't, can't, can't. But fortunately, we, we were also raised with the, with God, everything is possible, nothing is impossible, and so all of that just kind of came together.

at the right time to be able to produce something that would bring people in, share our dinner table with them, share our wine and food and the vineyards and the whole ambiance of what we were trying to create. And it, it, I think, helped to bond them to the [00:13:00] idea of Texas Wines. Not only

Paul: go ahead and the thing you know that Once you get to know Merrill, she is probably the most positive individual I have ever met in my life and her attitude of Everything is possible really prevails us and it prevailed us then and now because of all the negativity That existed back then and still does and her attitude was that If the Lord has a plan for us to be successful, it'll happen.

And it did. It did. Because back in those days, like you said, I was practicing physical therapy. And when I would be writing the work orders to do a wine, she's the one who executed it. She did it. She worked with all the employees. She did all the payroll. I mean, she was a one person show. It's a family

affair.

Merrill: I mean, we really shoulder to shoulder and I, Paul and Karen are doing the same thing today. [00:14:00] We're doing the same thing. Shoulder to shoulder, side by side.

Paul: And we were very blessed to run into a bunch of people that shared the vision that we had. Our growers in the early days, they felt like partners. You know, when I went to the High Plains in 1983 and said to the growers, we had a grower meeting up there and I said, My goal is that We will work together as partners, and my goal is that my son and daughter, or if I had a daughter, but my son would be working with their sons and daughters in the future.

Well, that's exactly what's happening today. And many of our growers have been growers since the 80s. And Paul has kept that same type of attitude. His philosophy is just as ours. Win, win. It's always a win win thing. It's, you never get into a situation with a grower where it's good for the winery and bad for the grower.

It has to be a partnership.

Shelly: And so critical in [00:15:00] Texas. I know that's important everywhere, but Texas is such a unique state where a lot of the growers are in one location and a lot of the fruit comes into other parts of the state. So I feel like that collaboration is absolutely critical.

Paul: Yeah, because every year, either you have too many grapes chasing a home or not enough grapes and everyone's trying to, you know, buy grapes.

This year we have a fantastic crop. 2023 will be as good as 2011. And 2011 was the best crop that Texas has had since we've been involved since 1977. And we're getting outstanding quality. We have good quantity, in spite of very harsh situation. Because in the, in the High Plains, they've been in a drought situation.

Just as most of the parts of state, of the state have been in, in drought.

Shelly: You mentioned going around the world and seeing food and wine customs of different countries. And I know even the name [00:16:00] Messina Hof references your places where you are from originally. I want to talk a little bit about when you have taken Texas wine out into the world.

And there are two stories in particular that were relayed in the book that I'd love to get your thoughts on. And one was the White Burgundy experience versus Texas Chardonnay. And number two is your trip to Bordeaux, when you took Texas Bordeaux out into the world. I mean, you don't necessarily have to give the full rundown, but just what did that mean at the time?

And, and how do we? Have instances like that even today that will make an impact to move the industry forward.

Paul: Well, George Ray McEachern and Texas A& M were responsible for putting those trips together. And our first trip was to Burgundy. Where we went to Burgundy and we toured. We would go to class in Dijon.

And go to class all morning and then all afternoon we would [00:17:00] tour the chateaus. And we got to appreciate Chardonnay and Pinot Noir in a very big way. And at the conclusion of our trip we were going to do a shootout where we had Texas Chardonnay, Texas Pinot against the Chardonnays from Burgundy and the Pinot Noirs from Burgundy.

And the, the wineries in, in Beaune and in the Burgundy area were very hospitable. They were very nice to us. They shared and they were totally convinced that there was no way that a Texas Chardonnay or a Texas Pinot Noir was going to anywhere near. Come close to theirs, and we did this blind. We did a blind tasting.

They said they had like 10 of theirs and 10 of ours. And we did this tasting. And sure enough, we wound up winning the best Chardonnay. And I don't think we had enough Pinot Noirs to even do a total shootout. I think it was just Chardonnays that we compared, and they were shocked. They were, [00:18:00] they were shocked.

We were shocked. Everyone was shocked and Chardonnay is one of those varieties that if you can grow it in Texas, you can make outstanding Chardonnay. It's one of our most challenging grapes to grow. So you don't see a lot of Chardonnay grown in Texas, but what we can grow can be of outstanding quality.

When we went to Bordeaux, that was, I guess, two years later. We went to Bordeaux. Ninety four, I think. And, and so we would go to class in Bordeaux in the morning again, and then we would tour the chateaus in the afternoon. And then at the conclusion of that, that was supposed to be very well publicized, and we were supposed to be getting media from France.

There were no, there was no media from the United States that we were expecting. But... You know, we thought we would have some media from, from France. And we were at Chateau Angelou. They had just been elevated in the in their rankings. So, and I had the privilege and Merrill had the privilege of [00:19:00] sitting alongside with the owner of Chateau Angelou, beautiful location.

And he was very confident to say the least. He said I don't want you to be disappointed, Paul, when we do the results of this we've been making wine here for hundreds of years and you are just beginning your journey. And I thanked him even though before we left to go to Bordeaux, we had done the shootout in, in Bryan.

And I was very confident that our wines would show very well. And so we did it, and sure enough, we wound up winning. And I turned to my guest my, my host and said Monsieur, although you have been making wine in Bordeaux for many years, we learned very quickly in Texas. And that was the end of a lovely friendship because he didn't say another word to me.

And you know, you would think with the judgment of Paris that that was, that was a lesson learned but I think they were so confident that they would. You know, beat [00:20:00] the pants off of Texas that they felt very confident in doing it. And and I think they, they were shocked. They were shocked.

Because back then St. Genevieve was, was, Owned in part by a French company. And so they were Chateau Cordier and Richter Richter was one of the largest nurseries in the world. And Cordier was one of the largest French producers in the world. So they had some very outstanding Chateaus that they owned.

So there was a close relationship between France and Texas because of that relationship with the University of Texas Lands, and and they set a lot of it up themselves, and it was an unbelievable trip. I mean, we were having sauternes and, and first growths, and We had the chef from Mouton Rothschild that cooked for us every night.

At a different chateau every night. When [00:21:00] we look back on that trip, we pinch ourselves to say, I mean, when we were at Petrus we did a vertical. So, we were hopeful that we were going to taste a wine. We had verticals in every one of those chateaus. It was amazing. It was truly amazing.

Merrill: I think for me it was really eye opening from the standpoint that it was my first time to actually experience international wine and food like that.

I would say ancient inter, international food and wine because it's such an old culture, you know, and it was just, it's so embedded into everything that they do. And to experience that, we went to the market and we saw where they buy the fresh produce and the, got their meats and then, To, to be inside these very old chateaus and wine cellars and to be listening to the actual winemaker explain his [00:22:00] process and his philosophy between wine, between winemaking and expression of terroir was actually new for me.

I, I wasn't familiar with that. I had read things about. Chateaus and French wines, but that really hit home that this is, this is living the wine and food experience. And so it made it for me even more important in our goal to try to recreate something like that for Texas coming back.

Paul: And as soon as we came back, immediately we planted a garden right next to the restaurant in order to try to really duplicate that type of a style where the produce was grown right on the property and the chef was agreeable and wanted to be serving fresh straight from the garden.

And and it's a very special relationship. When you're growing it on the on the property, you're producing the wine on the property. [00:23:00] encouraging the food and wine experience, because, you know, back then, Texas wine consumers were pretty naive. I mean, we didn't have a whole lot of sophisticated wine consumers.

We had a very select group that collected top growths from Burgundy and Bordeaux. But the vast majority of people really did not have that kind of experience with food and wine pairing. And and, and so when we started doing more and more of that type of an event at the winery, we really started developing people who really got excited about the whole experience of food and wine and fresh and all that.

Shelly: That's great. I actually also came to wine through food because I was interested in, in cooking and dining and then when I would be handed a wine list, it was just like well, what do I do with this? I didn't know anything about wine. So then I learned about the wines of the world because when you go through these certifications and the official wine education for [00:24:00] these various groups, Texas isn't in the book.

So it wasn't until later I learned about Texas wine. But since you've brought up restaurants, I would love to get your thoughts for one thing, I was interested in the book that you talked about a program that I guess the Texas Department of Agriculture and possibly the Texas Restaurant Association collaborated on so that A restaurant was encouraged to be local, not only in food, but in wine.

What a concept. We're still working on that. We are. And I know that's an area of particular interest. I've seen you do some social media posts about that. So how are we going to get more Texas wines in our Texas restaurants?

Paul: The most effective and the fastest is through the consumer. Honestly you know, we've been blowing the horn of Texas wines in local restaurants for ever since 1977, and you have a couple of influential customers that walk into a restaurant that dine in [00:25:00] that particular restaurant a couple of times, maybe a month, and your wine is on the wine list within a week.

Merrill: And we had a

program that was a card that they had printed. I think the Texas Department of Agriculture printed that. And it said conserve Texas water, drink Texas wine. On the back side, you said, it was printed, I really enjoyed my time at your restaurant, but it would have been much nicer if you had served Texas wines.

And then it gave a blank if you wanted to write in your favorite. And we gave all those cards out to our, Best customers and we said please use this every time you go to a restaurant if they have no Texas wine Put it in the check I cannot tell you how many calls I would get the next day from that restaurant because they had a really good Customer that came in and they've left me a card and they want your wine I could have knocked on that door of that restaurant for months trying to get my wine in there But it only took one good customer to make [00:26:00] the request and it happened

Shelly: Interesting.

Well, I know Texas Wine Lover website has created those cards again. At least you can download and print some. I saw that, yes. So that's interesting to have the actual winery say, go to your favorite restaurants and request our wine. Yes. That's a great strategy too.

Paul: And then, get the cooperation of your distributor or you have to be prepared to deliver the wine to that particular restaurant.

And right now we have two major distributors. And they're under huge amounts of pressure from the big guys, you know, the gallows of the world, the constellations of the world. And a lot of times people don't even realize that you take a Gallo, they may have 50 to 100 different brand names that you're not even aware that they belong to Gallo.

Or, or Constellation the same way. And they're the ones that wind up on the wine list and you're wondering, and you're scratching your head, how come I'm not on the wine list? Because there's incentives that have [00:27:00] been given and all sorts of things. But if the consumer is supporting the te, the Texas Winery and saying to the, the restaurant owner, now that works when it's a.

Like a stand alone restaurant, a mom and pop, that type of thing. If it is a chain, like we're on the wine list at Saltgrass Steakhouses, that is a very intuitive wine buyer who is knowing their market, and when you think of saltgrass, you think of Texas beef, you think of Texas type food, it made sense to put a Texas wine on the wine list.

And it, it is, it's in the top two of their best selling red. So, you know, when people say oil, Texas wine, if you did put it on the list, it doesn't sell. That's not true. That is not true. If you put it on the list. It will sell, [00:28:00] especially if it's a quality product. It has to be at a good price point because that's another challenge of Texas wines.

Is that a lot of Texas wines are a lot more expensive than some of the California wines. So it has to be priced right. And if given a decent shot and then are you willing, the winery is willing to go into the restaurant and start educating the wine staff Making sure that all of the servers know about the wine and become ambassadors of the, of the Texas wine.

You've got a decent shot at being successful.

Merrill: I think that's a real key word is education. It's been our key word since we very, we began just introducing Texas wine. But now it's to integrate Texas wine into everyday life as, just as one of those French regions or Italian regions or Spanish regions.

culturally embrace and highlight their own food and wine of their [00:29:00] region. They don't highlight food and wine of other regions.

Paul: Because when we tell the story, imagine going to Chianti and putting a French wine on a wine list. You would be ostracized by everyone in the communities because you are not supporting Their lifestyle, their cuisine, their everything.

I mean a few years back Tuscany was having a problem with restaurants moving into Tuscany … Tuscany was losing its identity to food. And they started cracking down and saying, Look, we don't need any other type formats because we're losing our identity.

Well, Texas has a great identity. I mean, you know, when you start [00:30:00] looking at Texas beef and Texas lamb and, and great produce and all the seafood that comes out of the Gulf, there's no excuse. We've got great food. And now we have great Texas wine, so it, it makes sense for that partnership to occur. But it's gonna take a lot of work.

One year, Merrill and I did 212 wine dinners and food and wine pairings in one year. We did that many. And it was a, a hard year. We were on the road constantly. And it paid off. We started getting, we started... getting inroads. And all of us have to make, do their part. And, and the other thing that I think is imperative, we would go into an account and they'd say, well, I like your wine and I'm going to take this Texas wine off the list and I'm going to put your wine on the list.

And I'd say, no, thanks. I want you to add my wine to [00:31:00] the list, but I do not want you to take another Texas wine off off the list. And I think everyone needs to be able to do that.

Merrill: Paul used to have this saying that, you know, the Texas wine industry went from the Pet Rock stage to the Rodney Dangerfield stage.

I think there is a progression, and for, when Texas gets to the point where we are we have a good critical mass of wineries now, but when we, we need to get wineries that will be Transitioning to the second generation and the third generation, once we get those deep roots of people growing grapes and making great wines in Texas, we really have an industry.

When we get the Texans to say, where are your Texas wines on the wine list, because we are proud of our Texas wines, we support our Texas wines, then you have a real long term industry. I think that we're beginning to see that. I mean, it's [00:32:00] evolving, but we still have so far to go before we're there. We're thankful that we are in our second generation and there are several other Texas families that are now moving into their second generation.

Shelly: That's very positive. I like how you lay that out in the, in the book. And I know not every family has a, a child that perhaps wants to, to carry on the family tradition. And I'm glad in your case it did. I have found it interesting over time.

People have said, Texas wine today, is way better than it used to be. That Texas wine has improved so much. And I always wonder how that feels to someone who's been making wine in Texas for as long as you guys have. Do you, do you agree that Texas wine is that much better?

Paul: Well, the to some degree I agree with that statement because when we would come up to Grapefest One of the things that I used to always [00:33:00] enjoy doing is before it started, because we, we used to do Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I would go around to all of the Texas wineries and and taste their wines.

And I would encourage them to come over to my place and taste our wines. And back in the good old days when this festival just started, it used to be right here in Liberty Park. The first year we only had 500 people showed up. I think we had 14, maybe 14 wineries that were pouring back

Merrill: then.

Paul: I would say less than half, you would say, could stand up to what is being made today.

Today, I would say that maybe less than 15 percent would not, in my opinion, be considered commercially good enough to really be out there in the marketplace. So we've come a long, long way, and I, and I could tell you it, it has come in the vineyard in [00:34:00] our early days, if you said to a grower I really would like for you to make sure that you don't over water so that the pH gets above four.

They would say, what's pH? My growers, they can do pH. They can do sugar tests. I mean, they're very sophisticated today. So they have come a long, long way. And the wineries have come a long, long way. We have a lot of professionally trained. Or interned under a professionally trained winemaker in the state more so than ever before.

I, I rarely come upon a wine that I'll go, that shouldn't be in the marketplace. And I've seen the same thing in California. I've seen the same thing in Washington State. Other countries where, you know, you taste the wine and you go, my goodness, that's not worthy of being in the, in the market. So it's not unique to Texas, but yes, I, I mean to, to a [00:35:00] great extent.

I would agree with that. I think the quality and look at the medals, look at the co speaks other thing speaks to the medals. You know, when Bobby Cox. And Llano Estacado won the gold medal, gold medal, not a double gold, but a gold medal at the San Francisco Chronicle Wine Competition.

It made every major newspaper in, in the country. And that was in the 80s. Yeah, and that was 86, I think it was. I think last year, Texas won. 14, maybe 16 double gold medals at the same competition. And you didn't see it in well. In any of those same publications, so it, it has changed dramatically. I mean, the, the, the, well, a couple of years back, I, I did a comparison of the number of entries of Texas, and the number of entries of Washington, and the number of entries of Oregon, and the number of entries of California.

[00:36:00] versus the number of double golds. And Texas had as many or more double golds than any of the other four.

Merrill: I was going to say, in the early years, the only way you could taste a Texas wine was if you went to the winery. So, it wasn't like you were constantly being reintroduced to that wine to be able to taste it over and over again.

You had to go to the winery to taste it, or buy some bottles and take home. And as distribution... Has increased, and as the number of wineries has increased, there's greater exposure. So I might be able to taste that wine and sample it multiple times to refresh my memory, rather than just that one moment, that moment of truth, did I decide that I liked it or not.

And also I have to say that when you are relying on the experience at the winery, It's not always just about the wine that you're tasting. It's about [00:37:00] the experience that you're having there, too, and the memory that you take away. So there were so many other factors there. It's not apples and apples today, I think.

The medals make it much

Paul: easier. Yeah, and one of the things that I've been saying for the last 40 years, when I was 21, French wine was the right wine to be drinking. It wasn't California. Not by any means. It was French and a few Italian. Well, then I was in the military. I lived in California. I did go to UC Davis.

I went to Napa. And I started realizing there were some pretty nice wines in California. But still, French wines and Italian wines were my favorite. And that's that age group that is so critical is the 21 to 35 year old age group. Well, when you see, on a Saturday, all the Aggies that are at our winery, Messina Hof, for many of [00:38:00] those, is their favorite wine.

25 years ago, it couldn't have been their favorite wine because they never would, you know, they didn't come out to the winery like that. But now, they're interested. They're, the we have, Justin Scheiner does a class on wine appreciation. And Dr. McEachern used to teach that class. And he would have 25 students.

Justin has 225 students. So you could see the dramatic improvement and desire to know more about wine. And

Merrill: being impressed while you're young, you do take that with you. You never

Paul: forget that. Forever. I mean, for the rest of your life, if all of a sudden, Texas is maybe one of the top two wines that you prefer.

Well, that's a lifetime of Texas wine consumer. You know, and, and once you do that, I don't, I don't think all of a sudden you're going to say, well, [00:39:00] actually I think French wines is my favorite because when you, when you, like in most of the stores in our area and Bryan/College station, the French wine section now is so small and the Texas wine section is so much bigger than the French section that.

I mean, you know, it'd be hard pressed. How could you become a French wine consumer if you just shopped grocery stores? Because the section is so small.

Shelly: You'd probably just be drinking all Gallo if you don't.

Paul: I mean, yeah, that's what would happen. So it's made a big difference. And, you know, in festivals like this, you know, back in the beginning, before Grapefest, I guess Fredericksburg, had a festival.

A couple of hundred people. Now they get 25, 000. You know, here, you know, 260, 000. Makes a big difference. I'm going to

Shelly: find my, this part of my notes, because I want to get this right. [00:40:00] Okay. I want to talk a little bit about industry leadership, because I know that Paul, you've been the president of TWGGA three times.

And one of the lessons learned that you. pull out in this book. I'm just gonna go ahead and read it. You say, always legislate for the common good, not self interest and never speak badly about another Texas winery because you are destroying the Texas brand that includes you do unto others as you want them to do unto you.

Such a good reminder.

Paul: Yeah, I mean, and it's one that we've lived by, you know, In the, in the, again, good old days when I was first president, I'm riding in a plane to Lubbock and I'm sitting next to the CEO of another Texas winery that will go unnamed. And I said, you know, we could do some fantastic things together.

And he said, Paul, he said, if we can do something that's good for [00:41:00] you and good for me, I have no interest in it at all. But if you could come up with a program that is bad for you and good for me. I'm all for it and I, and I told him, I said, you know, that attitude is not going to be conducive to growing an industry because we are challenged by weather, by the marketplace, just the art form of making wine.

I mean, we don't have to be concerned about you know, competing so aggressively against each other because. Texas is less than 3 percent of the market in the state of Texas. Now, go to New York, which would be a lovely market to have 3 percent of the market. We're zero in New York. We're zero in probably point something in California, because actually California is our second best state.[00:42:00]

But but you have to have a cohesive industry. And the thing that I've been so proud about the Texas Wine and Grape Growers Association is they've worked very, very hard to keep the grower and the wineries in the same organization. And that

Merrill: when you were president, that was huge for you. Oh, they have to work together.

marketing as well as technical.

Paul: We had a bunch of challenges where people came to us and said, we want to have two separate organizations, a grower organization and a winery organization. And I said, one cannot exist without the other. And that's foolish to do that. And California probably has half a dozen, maybe a dozen different organizations.

And, and a lot of them don't pull together. So they would be more effective if, They really had fewer organizations.

Shelly: And that includes legislation, which I know has been a big part of, of the past several administrations. [00:43:00] Maybe since the beginning of TWGGA, actually. Right.

Merrill: Well,

Paul: and we were blessed with Susan Combs.

Yes, I

Shelly: wanted to bring that up because her name keeps popping up as I'm researching the origins of the Texas wine industry. Because she was the Agriculture Commissioner under George Bush. And she created, or I guess, under her term, during her term, Texas Wine Month became a thing. So it sounds like she was quite the champion for Texas wine.

Merrill: And wine at the the State Fair of Texas?

Paul: Yeah, before she was the Commissioner, the State Fair had no Texas wine at the State Fair. Made no sense. The governor's bowl never had a Texas wine before her. It was always some California winery. It, it made absolutely no sense. I mean, when you, when you just say it out loud, you say, Oh, that's impossible.

You [00:44:00] can't have the governor of Texas, his ball and have a California wine. But yeah, that's exactly what it was. And you know, as proud as Texas is. Sometimes we just kind of overlook stupid things like that. It made no sense. It made absolutely no sense. And that's what she said. At the time she was the commissioner, we had Billy Clayton, Speaker of the House.

We had Pete Laney, who was his protege. We had Jane Nelson. And we had You had Vicki Truitt, didn't you? Vicki Truitt, from Grapevine again. Frank Madla I mean we had a bunch of great Texans that were really promoting our Texas wine industry. And it amazed me in the last two sessions. You know, you keep hearing, Oh, we're going to have a big surplus.

We're going to have a big surplus, a great opportunity to really get behind the Texas wine industry. And then all of a sudden you, you have a bill that goes up [00:45:00] that A& M and UT and Texas Tech all work together, which is really hard to do to get them all working together. And they promoted a bill that would have been able to do marketing.

Research and and really get our industry boosted and the legislature turn the, the, turn the bill down. It, I mean, again, makes no sense. We're now contributing 20 billion, it's a B, billion dollars to the economy in the state and we can't get money from the legislature to help promote the industry.

Makes no sense.

Shelly: What was the reason behind the denial on that bill.

Paul: Do you know? Oh, I'm sure that in the middle of the night, there was some lobbying group that just squashed the thing because it made no sense. I mean, what a great investment. I mean, A& M is about to launch a [00:46:00] viticultural and enology degree.

That means that those graduates are going to have jobs in the state of Texas. Texas Tech has been working on doing the exact same thing. Grayson Community College has been working diligently at that. And to think, you know, so now we can educate our people and they'll go to California. Makes no sense to do that.

Just, it, it, it's mind boggling. And, so we need to get the legislature really to invest time and effort into going to the wineries and developing friendships with them and seeing how hard it is to you know, to really develop an industry, you know, because diversified agriculture is really critical.

I think part of the problem is the fact that they say, how many acres of grapes do we have in the state of Texas? How many acres of grapes do we have for cotton?

Shelly: What about the value of the two crops? Absolutely. That's the issue,

Merrill: right?

Paul: That's right. I mean, it's a huge, [00:47:00] huge difference. Because it's so value added.

Because we grow the grapes, we sell the grapes to a winery, they employ people, they spend money in the community, and so you get this reverberating benefit over and over and over again. You know, let's say you have a crop that you sell and it winds up in China or it winds up in India and they're making you know, jeans out of it.

You know, you get a benefit, but you don't get the same kind of benefit that you have. Plus the fact that, to me, tourism is so critical for the state of Texas. When you start looking at Grapefest and you see the rodeo in Houston and so many of the other types of things that are so Texan. Texas wine is a natural to be, you know, to be part of that.

Shelly: I hate to tell you this, but as far as the State Fair of Texas goes, after several great years where they've done an all Texas wine list and a Texas wine garden, the [00:48:00] wine garden has been rebranded, and it's no longer the Texas wine garden, and the wine list is... Very few Texas wines.

Paul: Oh no. That is unbelievable.

Merrill: That's so sad. And you know, that's, I don't understand that, being a Texan myself, and we've always been known as proud Texans, proud of Texas products, anything Texas, and yet, we have these issues where we won't serve Texas wines. We don't get behind

Paul: them. And so, that's the type of thing, it would really be interesting to see.

What influence was on that decision maker? How did that happen? Because more than likely, it's going to be something that, as Texans, we'd all be very disappointed when we hear how that actually happened, because it makes no sense. Right. And

Shelly: if, you know, the purpose of the fair is to promote Texas agriculture.

Exactly. I mean, the agriculture [00:49:00] commissioner whose poster is up and right next to the wine garden. It's like, that's the person that should be influencing to make sure there's Texas wine there. And

Merrill: yeah, advocating. Yeah. Standing on it. Yes.

Paul: Well, Susan would go every year and she would be there promoting it.

I mean, it would, it's, it, it, it's just one of those things that you just say that's impossible. There's no way that that could be true. And I'm sure it is.

Merrill: I'm so sad to hear that I know I'm hearing it from you for the first time.

Shelly: I, that's probably a longer story than I'm sure. I'm very disappointed.

I have hopes that the right person will exert whatever kind of influence needs to happen so that in the future that that decision will be reversed. I think it was purely financial in this particular case. There's a lot of finger pointing, but I feel like it was just a bottom line thing. Like I have a feeling that the wine list will end up looking like all the bottom of the shelf cheapest stuff they can get and put it out there, so.

Paul: Well, we, we, we stirred the pot [00:50:00] pretty good last month. When we discovered that the wine number 12. Aggies all over the place are buying up because it's an Aggie wine made by good Texans. You turn the label around and you find out it's made in Spain. And now there's been a lot of complaints back to the athletic department about that.

And, you know, the average person doesn't really read the... the label. And the first time I saw 12, I thought it was a Texas wine, too. And until I looked at it, and sure enough, it's made in Spain. So I think we all have to become better advocates at things like that that make no sense. And it was strictly a financial thing, because it's a pay to play.

Licensing arrangement. That's it. That's all it is. But there are things that people need to say no. I'm [00:51:00] not gonna, that kind of money, forget about it. It's just not compatible with the philosophy of a great institution. Well, I think

Shelly: if anyone can get through to the Aggies, it's going to be Merrill.

Merrill: Gig ‘em!

Paul: Aggies We have plenty of Texas Aggie wineries now, so there's no excuse

Merrill: That's what we do and that's exciting Especially now when A& M is getting involved in the industry to such a degree. We're very excited about their new Dean of horticulture Amit Dhingra because he is such a crusader and such an advocate not just for the industry and the development of the program but for educating The faculty, the staff, the public. He went out and he asked a lot of questions when he first got here to kind of get a lay of the land and understand and what he came back with was we need to start by having tastings here at A& M because our [00:52:00] faculty and staff doesn't even know about the industry here.

And he did. It's called Spirited Learning. Every month he does a different. beverage, you know, and food, pecans and wine and beer. And I mean, they do different things, but it's been an eye opening experience for so many people that didn't even know we had so many producers in the state. But also it shows the support of the university for these programs and the industry that they want to be able to train people to lead.

I think it's a great start. I hope that he can continue and that the university will help him continue to build that. He

Shelly: has a lot of energy and I love it too. Yeah. Well, I've kept you quite a while. Are there any last thoughts that you would like to share before? I let you go on with your life. Is there any last parting mess message that you want to send or words of encouragement [00:53:00] or invitation to him?

Become part of the family at Messina Hof or anything else.

Merrill: Absolutely. Well, first I want to thank you for your interest in support of the Texas industry and all that you've done. And I love your reporting and your open heart in mind and you can see, I can, I can tell that you can see a vision of where the industry could be and what needs to happen to get there.

And we just appreciate it. Messina Hof. We're in this 47 years now and we have seen so much happen. There were two wineries when we started and now there's over 900. We've seen now A& M really get involved very aggressively. I'm very excited about that. And we just hope that every, every Texan will pick a winery, pick it, we hope it's Messina Hof, but pick a Texas winery and support it advocate for it, and join the Messina Hof family.

We would love that.

Paul: And every time a [00:54:00] consumer sees something that makes no sense, do something about it. Ask for Texas wine. Say something about it.

Merrill: Every restaurant, every retailer.

Paul: Because it's amazing how strong and important the consumer is. Because once the consumer voices their opinions, that moves mountains.

And it's really critical that the consumer realize how important they are. And and every Texas winery should really nurture their consumers because without them, they're out of business. And they should never take take for granted their consumers, never, because without them, there is no.

business. So right now,

Merrill: industry and God bless Texas wine. We can all

Shelly: get behind that. Well, thank you both so much. You've created a beautiful winery and a beautiful family. And I know that those things are both incredibly important to you, and [00:55:00] I'm happy to talk about it. And I love seeing Karen here and there.

I just saw her at TEXSOM. So she's always so delightful.

Merrill: We're very blessed to have a daughter in law who has such passion for the industry and who is willing to stand with her husband. And it's a tough business like we've, we've been talking about. And and she's a great mom and she does so many different things.

Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you. Thank you.