Phil Lopez of Silver Spur Vineyard & Winery in Hico

Shelly Wilfong  
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Welcome to This Is Texas Wine. I'm Shelly Wilfong, a wine educator writer and Texas Wine Enthusiast. On this podcast I share Texas wine news, interview the most important people in the Texas wine industry and bring you the information you need to be a more informed Texas wine drinker. Thanks for joining me on this Texas wine journey. This is episode 63. Today you'll hear from Phil Lopez of Silver Spur Winery in Hico. He's a Texan who got into wine while living in California. Phil's done his fair share of cowboyin' and is most at home in the vineyard. You're going to love what Phil has to say about Texas wine. And after 62 episodes, finally someone wore a cowboy hat to the interview. But first, the Texas wine news, whether you're a regular listener or joining in for the first time, welcome to this as Texas wine. 

VinePair named the Texas Hill Country one of the world's top 10 Wine destinations for 2023. The list of the best wine destinations celebrates up and coming wine regions, producers that are innovating and even creating new high quality appellations and some beloved destinations that have revamped attractions. The author says that while wines might not be on the radar of drinkers across the country yet, the Texas Hill Country has an enthusiastic community of producers putting the region on the map as a must visit wine destination in the US. She says that over the past several years Texas Hill Country wineries have honed in on their region's distinct terroir and experimented with what grapes work best in the area. And the results are showing from Elegant Sangioveses and mourvedre-based blends to bold  Tempranillo and Tannat, there are a lot of exciting varieties to explore. The author mentions the private Tree House tasting at Sandy Road Vineyards, the cave tasting at Slate theory, and even mentions the passport program where you can go from winery to winery with complimentary tastings from participating wineries. That happened several times a year and the next one is in October. There are other local businesses mentioned to like Cabernet Grill, the William Chris Supper Club, the upcoming Albert Hotel as well as Six Twists, a new sparkling wine bar. And FYI the other wine regions that are listed are Ica Valley, Peru, Puglia, Italy, Penedes, Spain, Santa Ynez Valley in California, Havar, Croatia, the Loire Valley in France, Auckland, New Zealand, Setubal, Portugal, and a place in Georgia that I probably should not attempt to pronounce. That's the country of Georgia obviously. 

VinePair has also named the Becker Reserve Chardonnay from Tallent Vineyards in the Texas Hill Country as one of the 30 best Chardonnays for 2023. They say this is a food wine, and that the big sky shining down on these grapes is giving the Chardonnay a Texas feel. It has a rich nose with the soft touch of oak and wonderful medium depth on the palate and a good weight. You could sit at a tailgate and watch the sun go down with this one. 

The Association of African American Vintners (AAAV) just recently released the recipients of its 2023 Wine entrepreneur grant. Each winner will receive $5,000 to positively impact their operations, marketing or innovation efforts to help them grow their wine business. One winner is Cheramie Aho. of Cheramie Wine of Texas. She's a former US Marine on a mission to share Texas wine with the world. AAV Executive Director Angela McCray said many of our vintner members are balancing full time jobs while self funding their wine businesses. It's imperative that as AAAV grows, we help members to accelerate their business growth and impact on the wine industry. Cheramie told me that it's an honor to be recognized by the organization and the panel of judges for the work she's doing with sharing me wine and Texas wine and plans to use  the grant for operational costs as they gear up for retail.

There have been two different stories about Texas wine coming out of Lubbock radio stations. The first is Lubbock radio station KFMZ 94.5. And Renee Raven asks, Why isn't Lubbock getting the recognition it deserves as wine country. She says "Lubbock: where cotton is king, but is it?" She says there are 4 million acres of cotton producing land in the Lubbock area. So certainly cotton is a massive industry here. But did you know that a whopping 90% of the wine grapes grown in Texas come from the Lubbock area. If cotton is King than wine is queen, and she goes on to list some varieties that do well in Texas and tasting rooms that are local to Lubbock and ends with this, "next time you think wine, think of home we deserve the connection and the recognition." A related article ran on the Lubbock weather radio station, they were promoting the recent Texas wines, hops and shops event that was just held in McPherson cellars. And the author says if you do attend this event, remember that every sip of wine you take is a sip of Lubbock and the hard work that goes into growing these West Texas grapes. Lubbock is known as one of the greatest growers of cotton. But a great writer once said, If cotton is king, then wine is queen, and he referred back to his colleague's article. By the way, at that Texas wines hops and shops event, Farmhouse Vineyards won the People's Choice Award. They told me that they've come close to winning this award before but fell just a few votes short. So congrats to Farmhouse and the more than 30 families who make it possible for them to do what they do. 

Texas Wine Lover co-owner Amie Nemec has authored an article that was just published in Texas Monthly, it's called "out of state wineries are moving to Texas for cheaper land and friendlier competition." The subtitle: "vintners from more established wine states like New York and California can't help but be drawn to the whole country's welcoming community and more affordable real estate." In it she profiles both Serrano wine which is Sarah and Bryce Garrett's wine brand that started in Paso Robles before the couple moved to Texas, and started making Texas wine. They're planting their Texas vineyard this in the next year. By the way. She also includes Chris Missick, who previously had a winery in New York's Finger Lakes and is about to relocate to Boerne. He plans to offer mobile bottling services, sparkling wine services and ultimately make Texas wine. If their stories sound familiar to you, both Sarah Garrett of Serrano and Chris Missick were panelists on Amie's seminar at the Texas Hill Country Wine symposium earlier this year. In the article Monty Dixon, who's the president of TWGGA and the owner of Bar Z winery in Canyon, told Amie that some of the existing wineries are worried he said, "We don't have enough grapes being grown to support all the wineries in the state. You've got to know what you're getting into. But he admits that the positive part of the Texas wine scene is the people in the industry that are thriving and helping each other." Susan Auler of Fall Creek vineyard said, "There's so much to learn from the traditions and experiments of the other wine regions. Collaboration alongside the vineyard research of Texas a&m University of Texas and Texas Tech will help propel our homegrown Texas wines onto the world stage of recognition all the sooner." Unfortunately, the social media critics have been out in full force with a lot of opinions about this article. Find the links to all these stories in the show notes at thisistexaswine.com. And that's the Texas wine news.

This is the time in the podcast when I asked you to do something for me and there are a couple of things that you can do for me today that are free and help grow the podcast. One is to share the podcast with others and you can do that on social media by tagging @Texaswinepod and your stories and posts. You can also review the podcasts on Apple podcasts and Spotify and leave a few remarks. This is especially beneficial now that my website has a review section. You can even review the podcast right there on my website. Someone named emoji girl did just that. She gave the pod five stars and said "super interesting and entertaining. I found this recently and I'm now listening to all the past episodes. I always learned something new every episode. This is Texas wine is my new favorite wine podcast." And finally, you can visit my website to sign up for my occasional newsletter. That's where I'll communicate with you on my recent wine events and fun finds and wine and travel. Thanks, y'all. 

And now for our interview. Hico might not be top of mind when it comes to Texas wine destinations, but maybe it should be. That's where Phil Lopez opened Silver Spur Winery. I first tasted Silver Spur at a wine competition in Granbury in 2021 when their 2019 tonight from their Gatewood Estate Vineyard won one of the top awards in the competition. Phil's a vineyard guy and he wants to make wines that are approachable. He's not cutting any corners when it comes to quality fruit and quality wine. And because of his reputation as a grape grower, he's in demand as a vineyard consultant. This recording took place at Roots + Water in Dallas. Roots + Water is a private wine club that offers wine storage, event space, retail sales and all kinds of special events. You might hear a little bit of what's going on in the background toward the middle of the interview. What can I say, it's a lively place! But thanks for letting us hang out and record this podcast there. And if you're interested in learning more about Roots + Water, visit rwdallas.com. Now here's my conversation with Phil. Phil Lopez,

 Silver Spur Winery.

Phil Lopez  
Yes, ma'am..

Shelly Wilfong  
Hico, Texas.

Phil Lopez  
Hico Texas 

Shelly Wilfong  
I passed through Hico a lot, but occasionally I stop and it's cute little town

Phil Lopez  
it's come a long ways. 

Shelly Wilfong  
has it?

It has come a long way set especially in the last probably six years. Yeah, since the Midland come in, the Midland hotel came in and a couple other guys have come in with the Mercantile, now we got a new guy come in from Fort Worth that's invested a lot. But I think me and the Midland Hotel and the Chop House. We're probably the pioneers of starting it.

You need another winery friend or two down there right?

Phil Lopez  
 We definitely do have been trying to get several guys to come in and make it a destination instead of just me being there. I'd love to have three more there. Or four.Yeah, because there's definitely plenty to do. It's just not all related to wine, but everything should always be related to wine in my opinion. Yeah. So I've been to your tasting room there. And I just missed you. I think you were in the vineyard. But before we start talking about your specific spot, why don't you take me back to how you got interested in wine. I know you're a Texan who went to California and spent a lot of time there. What were you doing and what made you want to come back and start a winery in Texas?

Speaker 2  
Yeah, I was born and raised on the Gulf Coast. Down in Brazoria County, South Houston. 86 kind of was a branch manager. There we were in the agriculture scene down there really heavily. So kind of needed a job. Only really cowboy ranching job I found because of the oil bust at the time, was in Northern California. And how went all the way from the Gulf Coast to Northern California (Culture shock!) Big culture shock. Well, I was cowboy and I mean, it's it's rural. And I always tell people, I thought I was a cowboy down in South Texas until it went to Northern California. All right, then I was a real I became a real cowboy. desolate, no electricity generators. People don't understand how rural northern California, it's probably more places off the grid than any place in United States. It's all right. It's just too rugged to put power. So I spent a couple of years on a big ranch. And I met a girl - that's always a story.I  moved to wind up moving to Santa Rosa getting into construction, basically tile work. And long story short, I was able to develop my own construction company and several years about took me about 10 years and I was able to afford a place I'm in town in Santa Rosa with my family was able to afford a place out on Olivet Road.

Shelly Wilfong  
That's a big time address.

Phil Lopez  
 two miles long like 11 wineries on it.  so you know Gary heck was one of my neighbors, the owner of Korbel lived right up you know so that just kind of sparked my scene. I was drinking some dry wines before that only person I would you know it's kind of sounds weird being California only person that would drink dry wines with my sister when she moved to Santa Rosa so I'd go over to her house and I'd stopped by the grocery store and bought this wine and because all you always pick up great wine. How do you do it? I go well I just pick out store I pick out what's on sale and has the most alcohol always pick up the greatest I mean  her was sit and drink a bottle and we would enjoy it and kind of talked about it and stuff and then when I was able to move out to Olivet I guess it really just mind all my neighbors they welcomed me you know worked hard and they just sparked I was able to do some different things and get involved deeply with it and and not in more because of them they they brought me into it and then I just I just fell in love with it

Shelly Wilfong  
were you growing anything at the time?

Phil Lopez  
 we were growing some some Pinot my first experience and grown was with  Pinot -  pretty frustrated. even there.  even there. It's it can decide it doesn't want to play at any point. And so yeah, so that's what I cut my teeth on. Chardonnay. My neighbor, Corky (Denom?) had a big, like Ikea like 18 acres of Chardonnay. And so he was three doors down from me. So yeah, helped him a lot and stuff. That's great. So yeah, Randy Pitts Harvest Moon that's too I wound up running with a lot you know, everybody that come into town we always hung out at Randy's we went everywhere else we always wound up back there nice, you know, just a style of wine and that's that we've find that found that's what I really liked was my style of wine. Kind of, you know,  it's where I developed a style that I liked

Shelly Wilfong  
And not just to drink but not to try to make too?

Not just to drink. That's and that's what we've duplicated here that's what we brought that's what I was seeing was kind of a case of fast for I came moved back to Texas about 10 years ago brought my kids with me my son was already here going to college in Weatherford but then brought my daughter here she graduated high school in Hico, bought a place and you know started doing the wine scene here traveling around especially in our area, the Hico area, Erath County, you know, started doing taste, you know, going tasting wine and stuff and I was going, man, I just I was just kind of looking for it was a style of wine I really wasn't familiar with so I was trying to figure out what's happening what's going on here. I mean, there's varieties that I was familiar with, but I didn't really understand what the what the how their end product wound up the way it does, you know, because I would just taste and wasn't really involved in what they were doing. So then I said well, I can do something like this. I need my, you see my style was absent. 

What is your style? How do you describe it? 

I think it's more of a Tuscan (style), neutral barrel Tuscan soft, fruit forward. I call it drinkable ready to go. Ready to go. You know, I call it real drinkable. So I got I talked to people in the tasting room, I just tend to describe it that way. You know, nothing overbearing , a farmer's version. You know, the Tuscans are awesome farmers, you know, they, they, they promote fruit, and I'm raw about promoting my fruit so I don't really do any blends. I do single varietals, I'm going to show off my fruit. Really, really proud of my fruit.

And so you're trying to not have super high extraction to where you're getting a ton of bitterness and tannins. 

Yes, but keeping the tannins really neutral in their place. Kind of complements that have taken over. No big oak really minimal oak we let the fruit talk to us if it's overbearing it needs some? Hey, we'll put it on but if it if it's going to override it and trying to make something it's not,then we kind of try to keep it that the fruit be the focal point.

I know you're happiest in the vineyard. 

Phil Lopez  
Oh yeah, no, it's my happy place.

Shelly Wilfong  
 How do you start in the vineyard to make the kind of wine you want to make?

Speaker 2  
(It's) a lot of work. A lot of devotion. And so that's where we go back to where I started this. And then I was trying to open the tasting room, I was just going to kind of do some California stuff from Randy and stuff that we had in our estate vineyard out there and bring it here and getting a little tasting room and not get into this big. I didn't want to get into the big thing again, I kind of knew what that entailed into the full blown production and everything. And so we opened the tasting room. We're doing some California stuff. Then I found that real quick, Texas like Texas wine. And so and then out of the blue, I just got a call just open the tasting roo m probably for like a month. And then I got a call, I mean, were helping another vineyard get in place. They were building it. I had a friend of mine. And I knew a guy that was in charge of putting it in. And we were trying to going out there checking it out and then I had another owner of a vineyard from Comanche.  Another vineyard had another winery had it and they called me and said hey, would you be interested in leasing my vineyard? I didn't know what all the politics - I was brand new that scene - I didn't know all the politics involved in it. So I wound up taking that vineyard over leashing that vineyard, it was established. And then I found out real quick, where the disconnect was from the wind had been tasting in Texas. From the wine I was used to drinking. 

Shelly Wilfong  
Okay, now me more.

Phil Lopez  
I found that disconnect was the farming. the difference? The disconnect was, is super hard. It's really hard and labor intensive. Right. And there's no labor that, you know, there's no educated labor here. In our area, me I have to train all my guys or do it myself at that point. And it was like, overwhelming. I mean, hard. I mean, nothing. I mean, I always told everybody that California is like a gentleman's rancher compared to here. You know, you just steal it out there and take care of it, throw a little sulfur on it, and they're having a little rough year this year, but nothing what we go through here.

Shelly Wilfong  
And tell me specifically where the labor comes in? Is that how often you're making passes through the vineyard? Just from pruning to I mean, what are the kind of big components of where the labor is.

Phil Lopez  
It's like, we start off every year? Yeah, we start off pruning. First, we start off weed management early in the, in the spring spraying, you know, preemergent, you know, trying to keep a hold of the weeds, then we start right into pruning, which is a huge deal. You know, done right, done, right. So huge till then playing the weather game at printing, you know, we are, you know, we're going to pre prune, is it budding too early, we need to stop it or what we got, what do we have going on, you're making those decisions, and then finding the labor to help do it. And it's gotten better every year. For me, we're really efficient. Now. I mean, going into our six year farming here, we're super efficient,  we can we can we can get I have a crew now we can go through it. I wish I had that in the beginning. But it was good because I understood what those other guys were going through, in why the wine tasted or was made in the style the way it was, or why it was trials that they were having to go or, you know, having to get fruit from the long distance and their priority was more you know, the in and I understood now why the vineyard was like fifth in Priority or fourth in priority to their whole operation. Which to me, it's always been number one, right? Oh, it'd be more important. Oh, it's been number one, you know, I so I had to wrap my head around that and and until I started forming myself, I didn't understand that. Now I got it. Now I understand.why.

Shelly Wilfong  
obviously I'm going to not ask you to be super specific here. But can you tell me some of the wines that you may have tasted early that weren't hitting the right notes for you? And you said it's because of what was going on in the vineyard. How does that show in the wine? Are we talking like VA or ...

Speaker 2  
Some VA in a lot of pH problems, okay, a lot of lot of throwing a lot of tartaric (acid). you know, killing the freshness. Mainly it was more of a freshness thing more of a pH probably a pH thing. You could tell you know, it was fruit that had probably sat in the heat for a while or been in on a open top flatbed trailer for five hours or some was picked probably you know trying to find labor and harvest so you know we go to the next thing you know, trying to get it off Come on late or come off, you know, like some of it was picked, probably one day and they pushed into the winery and then went pick the rest because they didn't have enough flavor. And then it goes set for two and a half days where they got it all together and press it off. Just things. Yeah. You know, just just things at the vineyard tours and when it's close proximity,

Phil Lopez  
You've got a vineyard close to Hico?

Speaker 2  
we've got five different vineyard sites. We're farming about 18 to 22 acres just depends.  we're planting new stuff. We're that's our focal point and I've got a crew we install vineyards we manage vineyards. So that's that's our, our bread and butter. That's that is our focus. Yeah, that's

Shelly Wilfong  
so all your grapes are coming from those vineyards that you manage. You're not buying anything from High Plains or anywhere?

Phil Lopez  
Oh, no. We don't. We sell we sell a lot of grapes. We've sell a lot of grapes to other wineries. Okay, that is our probably not as big as the winery itself their tasting room, but it's it's a good income factor on what we do in our whole operation.

Shelly Wilfong  
I should probably know this. But are your vineyards within the Texas Hill Country AVA?

Speaker 2  
No. Well, that's where we're trying to we're, I mean, we've been on the phone this week. I've been on the phone with this week trying to we're working on our own AVA, we've got several ideas. We're north of that. it cuts off at Lampasas. So we're north of that we're more in the Central. We call it the Brazos Drainage and central district of the Brazos drainage, or we're in the some people call it the Cross Plains. Okay. And the Cross Plains district. We haven't got that established. I mean, we're working hard on that, though, on the vineyard owners are all adamant about getting it going. It's a huge thing. We're working with several people trying to get that done. I know that's a big project and takes a couple years, you know getting the boundaries and stuff.

Shelly Wilfong  
So when you came to Texas, and you realize that you're gonna get into the vineyard business, you took over a vineyard that was already planted to what varieties?

Phil Lopez  
 those varieties actually were cab, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Chardonnay, and Viognier.

Shelly Wilfong  
And what's your opinion on those because I'm not sure I've seen those particular wines in your portfolio.

Speaker 2  
you know, I work a lot with AgriLife, Texas A&M AgriLife, Michael Cook, and Justin and all those guys. And when they put that vineyard in it was kind of what they knew. And at the time, what in what we knew about the Texas wine industry, and what grew so that's what they you know, and I seen, you know, I see Temecula when I was in California seen Temecula kind of go to the thing thing. They planted stuff down there in the early 2000s, late 90s that we grew up in Sonoma County. Well, that played its play, and now they don't grow any of that they grow their own stuff that they is good. Well, Texas had to go through the same thing. I think everybody tries to duplicate that. And I think that's what we tried to do. We didn't have the varieties with knowledge of what we do now. And so I mean, cab, I did cab the first two years. It was make a really nice little wine. So most of my clientele in Hico, but I'd say 90% of it is is Metroplex daytrippers. Yep, coming through. Yeah, I mean, that's most of my stuff. So introduced in the Texas wine and at Texas cab, I just could not get over the comparison. Yeah, they wanted to so much compare it to, you know, to a Napa cab, you know, online, it's totally different. Not gonna happen, you know, ripens too fast, you know, it can't hang on the vine is too much heat and stuff here. So and so just take it as it is, you know, but they, it just hard to get so I just started selling it at a guy loves it. He loves it. He does some different things with it. Same thing with my Merlot it was already planted, I grew some nice Merlot out there had a guy they loved it. I was never going to do Merlot Once I had that Tannat, and Tempranillo on my shelf, I was never gonna, you know, we grew it, it did well for us.

Shelly Wilfong  
So now when people ask you to consult on their vineyard projects, I'm sure there a lot of different components. And you know, I want to ask you, where do you even start, but specifically on the since we're talking about different varieties, what what varieties are you excited about for your region?

Speaker 2  
So what we're doing now, I mean, we're just now, I mean Tannat does we're super, super, super excited about our tannat. We grow Tannat in three different vineyards, it all does well. And it's all they're all a little different, or their terroir. So, work that we do Aglianico, Aglianico is really, really coming on it's a it's a really versatile we're growing some Monte Montepulciano. It's it's a late budder, which is great to not tread on the edge of one. But a little early for us because of the frost, it costs us a little work. We learned the man I tell you that first vineyard we had that we had we had the Viognier, there really wasn't producing very well. So we pulled it out. I talked to owners and the pull it out. And we planted Sangio. As one of my biggest mistakes, (Oh, is that right?) Well, yeah, you weren't pleased with how much mistake we never got a crop off of it froze it frost every year, they'd budded before my Chardonnay, really, for a year. And it just one year we got we had like a half a crop. And it just would freeze it would just been too early. So great, great variety, great. Everything, but it's just not. And we see that it budss in our area, but it's way too early. So I mean, cost. Cost me cost them a lot of money. It's a huge mistake. But I learned it's one of those learning deals. You're not. You're not making mistakes, not learning.

Phil Lopez  
That's true. So for white grapes, you've got Chardonnay still planted?

Speaker 2  
Yeah, we've got a little bit of Chardonnay. It's taken pretty good. Hit the freeze whacked it pretty hard. We have some new clones coming in next week that we're going to try. (of Chardonnay.) Yeah. They're new, more coal resistant, heat tolerant, new clone that they're sending me we're going to do a live experiment with them. And we're actually on the 20th be the first time in Central Texas we're planting a , cammanere, which is the new Walker, Pierces Disease varietal. (There's some of that out in the East Texas.)  Yeah. And there's some down in South Texas, but we'll be the first one in the heat. We can really get after it and see what it's actually going to do. And put it in, put it through its paces. 

Shelly Wilfong  
It's so interesting. Everyone thinks Texas is so hot. But I mean, you really have to farm to the freezes specifically.

Yeah, yeah, that's what we really have to watch on our shallow rooted our Aglianico really wants to stay shallow rooted. So we have to watch it on there, we have to change it. We're changing the different planning technique this spring, what were our planning where we've kind of kind of gone back to look at some of the way they plant in Bordeaux, because they get some cold weather sir. And so way they do you know, smaller holes kind of make the force or roots down toward the bottom instead of making a big hole where there have a chance to come up in January, that we've been pulling some Aglianico out lately. From Pierce's we pull some out every year. And we're noticing that they're really, really rooted. And so they didn't even really struggle to go down. They wanted to stay on the surface, they come up and actually they j root where the the roots actually start coming up towards. Oh, wow. And they wonder once they hit air there, or what's it called air-budded. 

 but it's super vulnerable to freezes.

Speaker 2  
 So we learned that out. We learned that by pulling them out from Pierce's. And we saw we had to change our water technique. We water everything a little bit. Everything requires water a little different. You know every variety, even though it's on the same routestock. Uh huh. They all require water different.

Shelly Wilfong  
Yeah. And I'm guessing you have different soil types in your different vineyards?

Phil Lopez  
 several different I mean, well, not several, I'd say there's two basic ones that we have that we farm in. one was the sandy loam with the clay base. And then we had the limestone the fractured rock that we put in a fracture rock gives more minerality and the sandy loams the easier, a little bit more were clean. I liked the fruit. That's way more it's a little bit more clean. In the sandy loam.

Shelly Wilfong  
So winemaking wise some of the varieties that you mentioned have like are known for having a ton of tannins like Tannat and Aglianico, I mean, those are both kind of monster they can be can be can So tell me about your technique? Because if you're going for more drinkability and that seems to go well in your tasting room. How do you approach that?

Speaker 2  
Oh, we first started we harvest a little earlier.  We don't let it get that big. And sometimes it's forced. If we're sitting that 22 and a half 23 bricks and the profile we love that profile and we love the freshness. And we're going to get two inches rain next next week. Oh yeah, it's coming off. It's coming off. You know, think gets rained on, we have to spray it in a year it kind of just to me, it's just another notch down on your on your purity on your freshness. And that's that's the freshness is more important to me then then then the Brix and the Brix Will we pick our way or you taste our rose, our roses are always we pick our roses at 19 to 20 bricks every year. Everybody's like, what do you do? And I'm like, is extra labor? Yeah, we have to pick it twice or three times. But it's, it's the proper way in my opinion.

Shelly Wilfong  
I agree 100%. And then you don't have to worry about over acidifying later, which is where you had a problem with some of the wines you were tasting early on. Yeah.

Speaker 2  
gets away from our style, keeping it clean and fresh is the main thing. Keep our, you know, cleanliness at the winery. That's a huge factor. That's as huge I learned that a long time ago, California. I mean, I've watched a lot of (disinfected?) in Washington powerwash with heat, you know, over and over and wondered why. And now you have to appreciate that. Now.

Shelly Wilfong  
It's not just for aesthetics, it's for the wine quality, right? 

Phil Lopez  
It is totally for the wine quality. 

Shelly Wilfong  
Where do you make the wine?

Phil Lopez  
So we right now you know where we started... I really wanted to focus on farming. So that's where I put all my focus and my money at the little tasting room. And we did have equipment ordered right when I first started. And not knowing Texas and trying to figure it out. It was going to come here like eight, middle August. You know, and this is 2017 Getting ready to harvest Chardonnay. It was beautiful. So I'm online. This isn't gonna let me just come around the July. The first or fourth, I'm like, this isn't gonna make it. So that stuff's here. So I start scrambling, asked a couple guys to help me out. And we kind of went back and forth. And then happened to hear about Wes and Mike Michael at Sage's Vintage in Nacogdoches. And first year, they were just starting to ask them, Hey, I got this short poem off. And they're like, oh, man, are you short? Yeah, it's, you know, it's a crazy one to start where we're at to their start. And, you know, they go they wanted, they were gonna do a bunch of blanc de Bois and stuff, you know, and I said, How could I have this Chard? So wound up taking it to him? It did an awesome job. 

Shelly Wilfong  
I love those guys. 

Phil Lopez  
Did awesome job too. To answer your question. I've kind of stuck with that. Then it became one of my clients. And now instead of having 10 or 12 clients, I have two now for all my grapes, if you're one of them, that's great. They probably buy a product, they buy 50% of my fruit, and then Dr. Bob, at Bending Branch buys the rest of it. Awesome. So I have cut my wondering where my fruit is gonna go to not having enough. 

Shelly Wilfong  
Yeah, well, and the logistics of managing all the relationships with the people that want your freight, I imagine is exhausting. 

Phil Lopez  
And it freed me up to concentrate on my farming. And they do a great job. And I had they were totally both of them are totally they both do wine for me. They have done wine for me in the past. I do little batches, stuff that I can handle. I have a little I have a little crush pad. I have some tank, I'm a barrels and I have my own little stuff set up that do experimental stuff. And I do special little batches I do on my own. 

Shelly Wilfong  
Did they I mean, I don't know exactly how that relationship works. Do they make things to your specifications?

Phil Lopez  
 100%. they've been great to work with. I mean, especially with Bob, you know, Bob's kind of, he's got his team great team. They do their stuff. I have some I have input with that down there. But with Michael in the West, I have a lot. I have way more. Yeah, we've we've learned a lot together. Yeah, we've we've learned you know, I'm not your typical probably typical customer. I'm a pain to them. Well, I mean, in a good way. They've been great. They've been great. We just, we just jumped off the deep end. Like last week, we've got a bunch of equipment.

Shelly Wilfong  
How is that? Where are you gonna put it?

Phil Lopez  
We've got I've got a couple of different I mean, it's gonna be either at my my place where I live a big big shop there or be at the tasting room. Okay, we have we're gonna expand out the back we were gonna put a patio on her but you know with the way that Texas now they quadrupled the winery permit costs. Oh, yeah. So now it's probably well do you know what Do probably at the tasting room that we've had. We've had room. Yeah, we have room to do it. They're not nothing huge here. You know people wanting to get in the wine business, Hey, I gotta invest a million dollars into equipment and definitely Randy at Harvest Moon, he had a 3000 square foot production facility. I mean, we made beautiful one. Yeah, it can be done. It can be done. It can be done. You don't have to have a 10 ton press and you know, all this stuff. You know, all this is great to have that. But you don't have to. I mean, we we did this, we did stuff and we produced, you know, we want it to be 1000 cases a year. Do you know, that's all high end? And that's where that's what we're gonna do.

Shelly Wilfong  
And you're part of the Cross Timbers wind trail>

Phil Lopez  
We're in part, yeah, we're part of Cross Timbers. I've been pretty fortunate in this thing. And we're running out this not having enough stock stash, right, especially the last two years. By last two years. At first three years was pretty tough. You know, had to first open we had to come to Dallas farmers market every weekend to sell one because, you know, in our area, we weren't really known because we only have dry wine we do. We don't do not to dry wine. We don't do any sweet one. 90% of the people that walked through our door was looking for sweet wine and Hico. At that time. 

Shelly Wilfong  
Hopefully you've converted some to be dry wine drinkers.

Phil Lopez  
I think the whole I think the whole Texas wine industry converted him. You know, I think the I think COVID Kinda converted him.

Shelly Wilfong  
Well, and I feel like, you may prefer sweet wine, but some of these lovely red wines that are easy drinking, that aren't gonna, you know, rip your face off with tannins, and have a nice fruit. I think that you can convert somebody with that. 

Phil Lopez  
Yeah, weconvert them all the time. Yeah, we and then actually just teaching them how to how to drink. I mean, that's a huge thing. I come to the tasting room. I am there a couple of times a weekend pop in. That's first thing I see is people don't I mean, they it's not sweet tea, and they're drinking, it likes me. And they're wondering how come they're not having the experience. So we just help them out a little bit, just a little bit. Education goes along, which is sitting down just kind of just okay, hey, we're going to help you out a little bit. And then they're converted.

Shelly Wilfong  
And I think the Italian - you mentioned the Italians. The Italians in many places around the world have the right idea when they pair their wine with their meals because I think that that is the most enjoyable way to drink wine personally. you still in your tasting room sell some California wines labeled as California, some some Texas wines?

Phil Lopez  
it's either 100% Texas, or it's 100% from Harvest Moon from that we do. Okay, for more. That's the only two we do we okay. It's all of our estate stuff that Randy has out there. Or it's all of our estate stuff that we do here. That's it. That's it. No blending. Separate 100% Yeah. I mean, luckily. Luckily, I was able to do that this fall. I read completely out of Texas one. It said outsells my California stuff. 4 to 1.

Shelly Wilfong  
How interesting. I'm glad that people are looking for Texas wine.

Phil Lopez  
Oh, it's been great. I mean, put they bought me out. I never I never dreamed I'd be selling this much, Texas wine. Never three years ago, or I'm going to be a I'm going to be a 500 800 case guy. Remember, no surprise. We're in a 1500 case, a year and we're trying to keep up. That's why I had to cut back on my wine on the wine festivals. Had a really I mean it just kind of drained me. I had we had to limit our wine club. kind of shut it off. Yeah, it's it's not very big. But we got to us it was it's big.

Shelly Wilfong  
And do you want to hold on to more of your fruit so you can bottle more and sell more personally?

Phil Lopez  
That's kind of what that's kind of what that's your next step. Sorry. Dr. Bob. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We'll still work with him. I mean, he's an awesome. He's been a great mentor. He's been an awesome guide for me. He's been a great a great friend.

Shelly Wilfong  
So people need to come to Hico to see what it's all about. Yeah. Do you have anything that you're particularly excited to get in front of people when your new wines come out?

Phil Lopez  
Yeah, I've got a 2020 Tannat. it's going to be a little different. For me. It's a Bigger Bolder. It was 26 brix when we - 26 and a half brix when we picked it.

Shelly Wilfong  
And is that a response to the drought? 

Phil Lopez  
There was no drought that year. That's a 2020 We had a little bit of rain. Oh, Uh, wasn't like Yeah. 20 Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't really a drought that year we had we had decent rain. It was not as hot. We didn't have hardly any 100 degree weather that so at home longer, it was able to mature on the vine a lot longer. We even tried to do a late harvest that year, but the bugs got it. So yeah, we had some we had we had a lot of fruit that year. It was a good year for us.

Shelly Wilfong  
Yeah. And the name silver spur. How did you decide on that?

Phil Lopez  
it was supposed to be Silver Creek, which was named for my companies and everything. I've had several companies, California was kind of  going to carry that namesakes name of my ranch. My place that I have and - not really a ranch, but just place it I have and but it was taken in (Legally?) Legally. It's taken.

Shelly Wilfong  
Well, a spur is more graphic for your label. 

Phil Lopez  
Yeah. And then so you know, we're like, oh, you know, and it's gonna be silver saddle. So we were kicking around all these ideas dove, you know, all these other? Well, we're big. I mean, we have some great cowboys and I'm, I'm in the cowboy realm and in a way I rope and have horses, cows, and I've lived that lifestyle all my life. And, and then we have some great, old Professional Rodeo Cowboys that live in our area. We're kind of a cowboy town. known, for Billy the Kid for Hico. No, for Billy the Kid. I said, Hey, let's just go some cowboy ish. You know, so we went spur. Nice, and it winds up being marketing changes. Because people we have a lot of travelers from Nebraska or Ohio or all over Canada. We want Texas one. There going that's Texas wine out there. Nobody can doubt that. That's like Texas, you know, perfect. So that was just by accident. But we weren't planning on that. But that's the way it came out.

Shelly Wilfong  
You have some opinions about 100% Texas.

Phil Lopez  
So yeah, my opinion on the on the 100% Texas labeling law that's coming out that started this year 100%. And I'm 100% behind 100% Texas, one label. Totally agree with it. no qualms with that. The only thing I'm wanting, I think, before we go that far, I think before we should have gone that far is that we need more fruit in the state. Our fruit can be a real big problem for especially for the little guys, the little guys up and come in like me, we're I mean, I don't think I'm gonna have to worry about it. Some of my customers just getting fruit, they might have to worry. But but there's a little bunch a little guys that are coming trying to do a good job. That fruit availability is kind of tied up from some of the bigger guys, you know. And if you look at the numbers, and we're all about trying to get more Texans to drink more Texas wine. Well, if we look at the numbers, I would say I'm gonna give it a good I'm gonna boost it a little bit, I would say a 30% of the drinkers here in Texas. Or if only 30% of drink in Texas one, we only have enough fruit to supply 50% of the winery since day. So we're you know, we're going to do that we need to boosts production in our vineyards, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for, hey, we're gonna I'm all about the 100% label. But if we're going to do that, we need to boost production for everybody, not just for select few. For everyone,

Shelly Wilfong  
I was glad to know that you are identified as a resource for people looking to plant vineyards. And you did a seminar of some kind with that concept in mind. I imagine it's overwhelming feat to know even where to start, where to where to begin, I mean soil samples and layout and bringing in all the labor and the whole bit. So what do you how do you counsel people? I mean, it's a long term commitment to it's not like people are going to start turning a profit the next year. 

Phil Lopez  
Yeah. And you know, that's not college educated or I just and I teach. I think what I say I teach them a more practical farming version that we revert to a book when we have to give them a practical version of it. What you can do what you can't do instead of have been super technical. You try to go by the book, it's overwhelming. I see a lot of owners I walk in a lot of vineyards and I just they go, we just can't do this no more. And what are you trying to do? And, you know, Well, this brings us into the help you prune, and then we'll guide you on the rest of it. But this isn't a golf course, you don't have to make it look like a golf course. It's give it some practicality of it, and it really leaves there. So much pressure they've been put on by a book or other guys that have, you know, saying, you've got to give them a regimen you know, give them a bill for $5,000 for chemicals every year. And, and you have to do this and you have to do that. And yet, it just they get overwhelmed. And that's in when I walked in when I walk into a place that you're having problem 90% of time it's that and it reached or at least a little is back it down. Let's back it down in and let's do some practicality here. And this do what you can. And then let's bring us in to help you or not or and it will or will show you there what the ways to go. Which is more doable. Yeah. Yeah.

Shelly Wilfong  
In your area are many people putting in brand new vineyards are they mainly replanting vineyards,

Phil Lopez  
we're doing both, we're doing both. But that says this, if I have some great people that want to put in some great vineyard right now, it's just expensive. You know, we're in the $20,000 to $25,000 an acre to get started. That's a big hunk, you know, pipes come down, or some materials that have come down, plants really never moved. They're just the same that they were four years ago. They really haven't moved but some of the infrastructure stuff. You know, wells have gone from $18,000 - $20,000 to  $32,000. Last one I just price.

Shelly Wilfong  
I wonder how that compares to, like deep hill country and how that compares to High Plains. I mean, I don't know what the materials are the same, right? I mean, maybe transportation will be slightly different. 

Phil Lopez  
They have a little bit bigger areas. So it's a little less expensive, probably on the High Plains. Her we're, you know, in our area, you know, a 10 acre vineyard is pretty good size for us. You know, that's, that's average size. Yeah. So then it's narrowed down you got high fence, you know, they don't that's an extra cost really high plains isn't deal with. We have you know, we have the high fence everything. 

Shelly Wilfong  
So that's a big that's a big cost because the deer?

Phil Lopez  
 And the other varmints come through

Shelly Wilfong  
so when you moved back from California, I don't know if you knew you're gonna be battling the weather like you have been?

Phil Lopez  
had no idea. Yeah, the first couple years was actually not bad. And then all sudden, just what could happen happens, you know, but you have to have that farmers mentality if you don't, it's not for the faint of heart. And you have to, you know, you know, pray and hope for little rain and then we'll do the rest.

Shelly Wilfong  
Is there anything that you want to say about the Texas wine industry and its potential,

Phil Lopez  
you know, COVID was good for me. In our location. Bosque County and Hamilton Country are right next to it, they're probably the most populated in Texas of absentee owners. So a lot of people that's if we have an industry in that area, all the friends of mine they all work for is people that own that live in the Metroplex, but they own ranches, big for big ranches small ranches, property out there. And they all do maintenance for them. You know, that's kind of our industry. Build a fence or, you know, build a house for them. They're different COVID And then they would when they left the city, they would come spend the weekend at their ranch house or their property, then they would go back. Well, when COVID came. cities were pretty locked down pretty hard. We were rural, we were they were coming out buying everything at our grocery store because we had stuff and it forced those people to come and spend prolonged periods at their ranches when they came to town. So those are my guys, those are my drinkers, you know, those are my dry wine. You know, they're so they found me and they realize what they've been missing. They found this and that's what blew us up in ourselves. And it's and that's what blew our wine club up. And you know, the COVID thing was actually was really good for me. 

Shelly Wilfong  
And you didn't do anything differently as a winery? It was just word of mouth and that traffic? 

Phil Lopez  
Yes,we just you know, that guy told his neighbor that lived in Dallas about us or Fort Worth. And then that guy told this guy and next thing we know we have all this we had this. That's our local clientele now, you know. And then this guy, and then the Hico has done just a great job on promoting the city.

Shelly Wilfong  
Isn't there a big event?

Phil Lopez  
The State Cookoff (Is that a fun deal?) FanDuel It's crazy deal. They shut the whole town down. Been anywhere I've seen as many as 6500 people there. Right. Since COVID. They had to shut down for a couple of years. Last year they fired it back up. I think they had about 4000 people there last year. 

Shelly Wilfong  
If you haven't already been to Hico, that might be a weekend you either want to go to or that you want to avoid.

Phil Lopez  
Yeah, you don't want to spend so what you do. Yeah, if you like a lot of people walking shoulder shoulder come on down. Yeah. It's but it's a good time. It's a great time for the city, we have a bit of a blast, third weekend in May. 

Shelly Wilfong  
I love what you're doing in the focus on quality wines, and that you're bringing a farming first approach to it all because that's, that's what's important when we're talking about this agricultural product that we all love.

Phil Lopez  
So I just like to lot of wine drinkers, I see, you know, come and taste room or they're drinking wine. They have no idea how much agriculture's into that bottle of wine, they have no idea. And I'm telling come spend a weekend with me and you'll appreciate that. Yeah, you know, is, you know, we're we're in the vineyard, I'm in the vineyard every day. One of them, maybe two of them. Every day. We're we're buried into these things. You know, we're doing studies, Texas AgriLife. Research, we're bringing on some new techniques of a different way. But we spent all winter, me and my guys spent all winter building equipment for the winery. We built a undermine mower ourselves from scratch, just so we can try to eliminate some of the herbicides. It's really important. So we're we've really gone into trying to practice and regenerative stuff that we're that we're implementing, we started to implement in last fall. And then we're going into him heavy with oh, we pruned all this year on the moonphase.

Shelly Wilfong  
Work. Wow, full biodynamic, huh? Yeah. Wow, yeah, we're gonna get some of those little baby sheep that are too short to reach the grapes.

Phil Lopez  
So we're, you know, we we still have our conventional tools that we need. I don't think we could ever go full bore but we can help out, you know, trying to keep the cycle going. And try not to hurt with the microbes and stuff like that. We're really practicing that usually. Our mowers working great, our tillers working great that we've made it's going to cut down on a lot of herbicides, a little bit more labor. But it's doing a great job. I mean, it was worth spending that time all winter in our shop, cutting and trying and taking, bringing it back and tearing it up and bringing it back and, and building it over again until we've till we finally perfected it. That's great. It just helps us helps us out helps a vineyard out helps the sustainability. You know we're trying to get trying to get that as much as we can. You know, the guys today they're, we're doing they're out burning the vines that we are clippings from from pruning, and we're gonna put them out. We're gonna put the ash out this year. For the first time you see at work just trying to practice get some data. You know where we're gonna go with it. I haven't you know, we're gonna plan another help a guy plant a vineyard in Cleburne. He's all about biodynamic, regenerative farming, his whole farm's set up that way and he wants his vineyard run that way and I'm like, wow, we'll try we'll give it a whirl. You know, we'll try it we'll stand out the best we can.

Shelly Wilfong  
Well I don't know if your customers are asking about that kind of stuff yet but if not, I bet they will in the years to come.

Phil Lopez  
It's coming. Yeah, it's coming. Now it's definitely it's definitely on its way. I'm glad that you're and we're trying to get ahead of the curve. You know, that's what we're trying to did it better technique of growing a plant even plant in this year. I went to TWGGA this year all the nursery guys I was throwing my idea around about how plant in this new doing a new kind of technique of planning and trim and some more off the roots of our rootstock. Before we plant it and get it deeper and headed get the roots headed down, get 'em safe. Because I mean, who knows we might be Snowmageddon every other year now, who knows what's gonna happen? I don't think we plan it for that. I know I didn't plan for that. Five years ago or four years ago. We have to now we have a we know it can happen. Our permafrost was down, you know about four inches. Wow, just crazy for Central Texas.

Shelly Wilfong  
I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.

Phil Lopez  
Oh, it's my pleasure.

Shelly Wilfong  
Thanks, Phil. And by the way, after we stopped recording, he mentioned that they hand harvest all that fruit. Stay tuned for demerits and gold stars.

Toast of Texas just happened and it was a great day celebrating Texas wine and wineries. The folks at Wine and Food Foundation did a great job with the event and they made an extra special outreach effort that's worthy of a gold star. They contacted all the chefs that they've worked with or hoped to, and invited them to the event and even gave them a discount code. They encouraged the chef's to come out and taste about 100 Texas wines all in one place. I hope chef and sommelier outreach is part of all future Texas wine festivals and events. And by the way, I met a restaurant owner there at the event who told me that he's planning to track down at least one of the new Texas wines for his restaurant. Cheers to that. 

There are two demerits this week one goes out to the commemorative bottles of wine that are being sold to honor the 2022 world champion Houston Astros. This offering is a collaboration between the Astros and Manos wine. Perhaps you'd like to toast the Houston Astros with a California Sauvignon Blanc, or a California Cabernet Sauvignon, or California sweet Rose or a sparkling wine with no indication of where it's from. I know these licensing deals are lucrative Otherwise, why would the proud Houston Astros settle for California wines to celebrate their season? If Texas wine is good enough for a presidential inauguration, and that was way back in 2005. It's certainly good enough for our 2022 world champion Houston Astros. And my second demerit goes to the hail that has impacted a number of vineyards in the hill country and in North and Central Texas. Hail season just bites.

Well, that's it for this episode. I'll be back in two weeks with an interview with Michael Barton of Hilmy Cellars. Get in touch you can send your feedback questions or ideas for future episodes, you can email me at Texaswinepod@gmail.com. And don't forget all the episodes that you might have missed. There's good stuff and everyone. If this podcast resonates with you, please consider supporting it by going to the website and clicking support the podcast. That's where you can donate virtual Texas wine which is actually just a donation to my podcasting expenses. Thanks to my recent donors, Dan and Brad and thanks for my continuing donor John, who buys me a glass of wine after every podcast. I sure appreciate it. You can find all the details at this is Texas wine.com. Finally, thanks to Texas Wine Lover for promotional assistance. Texas Wine Lover is here to help wine lovers discover more Texas wines. They're also a resource for the wine industry. TX wine lover.com has a complete list of all the vineyards in our state. So if you're a winemaker looking for grapes, use this list to find out which vineyards are growing the grapes you're interested in. That's a TX wine lover.com and click on vineyards to see a list or view vineyards on a map. Cheers y'all!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai