Sam Hargrave & Two Unemployed Actors - Episode 83

Max Belmonte 00:00
Welcome back to two unemployed actors I'm MAX

SAM 00:15
and I'm Sam,

Max Belmonte 00:16
little Sam just woken up. We've got a special guest with us today, Mr. Sam Hargrave from stunt
performer, a stunt coordinator to director Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Hargrave 00:30
Thank you for having me. I appreciate being here. Thank you very much.

Max Belmonte 00:33
We've got so many questions for you as to up and coming actors navigating through the
business. And we you know, you've you've got so much experience from starting out as a stunt
performer, working your way through the business. I mean, what, what, what made you start to
motivate to get into stance, it's not exactly something, you'd automatically wake up and go.
Yeah, I love the idea of getting hurt on set. It's great.

Sam Hargrave 00:57
Yeah, good point. Yeah, it wasn't something that I woke up wanting to do. It was inspired by
many years of truthfully, reading Louis L'Amour novels, when I was a young lad, just a great
western American western author who wrote a lot of action oriented stories of the American
West. And there was always at least one good gunfight and one good fist fight. Brilliant. And so
reading those books, as a kid, I tried to reenact those things. And then some of the old western
TV shows that would see reruns of the Lone Ranger or why Rogers or old John Wayne movies,
my brother and I would try to reenact these things. And that was the start of it without really
knowing that was started it. And, you know, we get our little high eight or VHS cameras that
my, my parents would have, and we would try to recreate these scenes. And you know, just just
for fun, never with any knowledge that that might one day become a career. And then it was
Jackie Chan movies. When I started into martial arts. I guess I was 14 years old when I took my
first martial arts class. And it was that was it. I was hooked. I was there was no going back for
me. It was down the down that route. I went,

Max Belmonte 02:17
what sort of martial arts Did you did you do as a teenager? Yeah,

Sam Hargrave 02:20
I started with the taekwondo. It was very straightforward. I remember the, the Why was my, my
sister. I have an older sister, and she was taking night classes. And my mother encouraged her
to take some form of self defense if you're going to be going to classes at night by yourself.
And, you know, she said, Sure, sure, sure. I'll do it. And then so my mom signed her up. And
then if you have these 10, you know, introductory classes, then then my sister said that no way
I'm being caught dead in those pajamas. So she skipped out on class, and my mom was left
holding, you know, the 10 Lessons. Today, somebody is taking these courses. And so I raised
my hand because I wanted to be like, you know, the martial arts masters I saw on TV. Yeah,

Max Belmonte 03:08
that's hilarious. Yeah, if I remember watching Bruce Lee movies, because my mum was really
interested in in martial arts and Bruce Lee, believe it or not, so I ended up watching Bruce Lee
movies and a bit of Jackie Chan, and started doing Wing Chun kung fu in Melbourne. Okay. So I
used to get bullied at school, you see, so I'd use humor, but that only works 80% of the time. So
it's it's those odds still aren't favorable. So Wing Chun kung fu helped me. And it's great for
confidence too, as a teenager. Yeah,

Sam Hargrave 03:44
it really is so many benefits to martial arts. At least there were for me. Yeah, it was I was very,
you know, active kid, very hyper. And so it helped focus that energy. It taught me discipline
discipline. Yeah. And, you know, it was also a way for a structured way I was allowed to get out
all this energy. And other than that, you know, throwing my brother out of barns in

Max Belmonte 04:10
Saudi, I'm starting to feel sorry for your brother already.

SAM 04:14
Similar thing that you said I was I did Krav Maga for a little bit, not too long, but I did a little bit
and I've two younger brothers and similar idea. Like we just used to watch movies and kind of
reenact fight scenes and I'd end up probably breaking one of their arms or something like that.
But yeah, filmed it and got on camera. So it worked out well.

Max Belmonte 04:36
Yeah, that's good.

SAM 04:39
That's good fun.

Max Belmonte 04:40
Jackie Chan fantastic. Fight scenes. I love the way that he films like it starts with a big wide shot
and it just keeps going and then sort of turns you this little handheld with a sort of doesn't cut
away. Yeah, it's just it makes it feel so real. And it's so so fast.

Sam Hargrave 04:57
Yes, there's a lot going on. Im going to doubletap, that sentence you just said there because
the way Jackie Chan creates and photographs and edits, fight scenes, has been very
instrumental in my career. Just the sensibilities he has not only for action, but for comedy, and
the rhythm to the fight scenes. When when creating action, when trying to come up with these
fight scenes or action concepts, there is a musicality that lives within the action. And that's
something that I think very few people have captured as well as Jackie Chan. And that was
always something that I was drawn to his style. There's a lot of other great action directors and
martial arts choreographers. But to me the musicality of his style was always very entertaining
and very inspiring.

SAM 05:49
Do you? Do you have a favorite fight scene of your certain from? I mean, from Jackie Chan? No,
from from anything,

Sam Hargrave 05:56
really? Favorite fight scene? That's kind of like asking,

SAM 06:00
I suppose a favorite film?

Sam Hargrave 06:02
What's very, very much a recipe. And what I've had most recently, I think, yet there, there's a
series of films. I mean, it's so it's so difficult, because he's done so many great things in so
many great ways. I think the there's project a part one and two have some of the most not just
fight but kind of action sequences that have really ever kind of come across. And the thing
about Jackie Chan was he was always pushing the envelope. Like if you if you go back and see
what our watch what they were doing. I mean, it wasn't just him. He was part of this, this era of
Hong Kong, action designers and directors who just it was like a, I mean, it was like Marvel does
where they just kept the movies just kept coming out. And they just they keep hitting the mark,
and they just keep pushing each other that you got to go bigger and better. And they weren't
doing it with computer generated images and effects. They were doing it with their bodies, and
the expression, human body through action. And it got to a point where, you know, they were
stunt men were going down, like left and right, because they had to push the envelope. It's the
audience's who wanted to see more and bigger and better and they didn't have the money for
the special effects and the visual effects. So it was all physicality. And man, they did some
insane things

Max Belmonte 07:25
he's had to do. He said a few broken bones to me. Sure, yeah. So yeah, it's when you push the
envelope that much that often I guess that's that's the risk that comes with it. And I guess,
occupational health and safety back in the Hong Kong days on set, that's probably a bit a little
bit different, a little bit different. I remember, I remember during I was following you on social
media. And I think one on one one on one of my favorite photos of you was when you were
strapped to the bonnet of a camera car. And I've just thought to myself, he's a stunt man
making an action movie. And like, you'd look like you're just like, affect your cupcake. Mate,
you were so happy that day. I tell you.

Sam Hargrave 08:11
Yeah. What I mean, it's interesting the things we do and the why. For me, it was never that I set
out to do crazy things when making extraction, it was more about I wanted to try to capture an
action sequence, you know, in real time and do something that really thrust the audience to the
forefront of the battle and put them in the action so to speak. So it wasn't quite first person
shooter game, but it also wasn't the way Jackie Chan we back a little bit. It was a mixture like
longer takes fluid action, but you were in there with him. And sometimes the only way to
achieve those shots was putting myself in some pretty precarious situations and it was less
about you know, that I the best camera operator or anything was more about the safety aspect
was that I knew this my years of stunt performing and being on set around these dangerous
events kind of what needed to happen where I needed to be and how to get out of trouble if
something should go south and I just didn't feel comfortable putting other people in that
position and thusly strapped myself to the car and

Max Belmonte 09:27
A culmination of it was like the pinnacle moment for you. You know, it's like everything's just
coming together right now. And because that because you get so close at such speed you get
so close to the other vehicle. It's It's insane.

Sam Hargrave 09:41
Yeah, and I think the credit has to go into the stunt team for keeping me safe. Like I was yes, I
strapped myself to the hood of that car, but I wasn't strapping myself. First of all, there was no
grading team that made sure I was safe. And then there was drivers there were drivers who
were driving that car. The different vehicles that I was in And the the ones we were interacting
with. It's a whole choreographed dance. You know, it's that. And safety is huge. It's a huge
responsibility from any for any filmmaker. And especially from an action standpoint, it's very
much at the forefront of my mind when designing these things.

Max Belmonte 10:15
Yeah, I think I think like, as an actor, you know, growing up, especially with the martial arts that
always thought, Oh, I'd love to do all my own stunts. And but no, I mean, to be able to do it
again and again, and look good, and hit the mark, looking good. You know, I mean, me flying
through the air screaming like a 10 year old girl, and you know, bit away coming out, it's not
going to cut it.

Sam Hargrave 10:36
Well, that's the thing, right? Like, most people could do the stunts that we do once. Yeah, it's
having to do them over and over again, like you said, hitting a mark and getting back up and
not just doing it to get the moods, right. But performing. Because as an as a stunt performer,
you're as much an actor in that moment. As an actor, as you're portraying the character
physically, in that moment, and you're capturing emotional content. And you're, you know,
there's a lot of lot of stuff that has to go through your mind and be expressed through your
body in these sequences, even at

Max Belmonte 11:10
the start, like when you come up with a concept for that car chase, for example, in extraction,
like, you're you're thinking, Well, what, what are the what, what are the given circumstances of
the moment? What's the character's objective? And all that factored in? As you're sort of
designing? I imagine those sorts of things.

Sam Hargrave 11:30
Yes, we, you know, we would approach an action scene, as an action designer, pretty much
how an actor or a director would approach any scene, like, where are you coming from? Where
are you going? What's the emotional, you know, through line of this scene? What are the beats
you need to hit? Like, what are the transitions, it's all very similar. And I think, you know, for
works both ways, meaning anyone who's wanting to get into acting can learn a lot from the, the
technical side of the camera, right? And the hitting marks and knowing knowing the flow of
things, knowing what lenses are being used, and that the methodology, but then on the flip
side, those who are either want to direct or, you know, direct actors or design sequences, it's
helpful to know the acting side of it. Because you have to be able to communicate with actors,
and you need to know these things about again, like emotional through lines, and what are
these character beats are trying to hit all the things that that actors do to prepare a good
action designer and director should be doing those same things?

Max Belmonte 12:33
Yeah, I think I think it's it's it's pretty impressive when it all comes together, I guess, working
out the artistic I was woken up, and he's a bit surprised to see me at 5am Australian time
anyway.

Sam Hargrave 12:51
But I think it's early for you guys, I I commend you for getting up. So really, well done

Max Belmonte 12:55
a couple of shots of coffee, and it's anytime you need it to be. But I guess how long does it take
from from that concept stage all the way through pre production planning and rehearsing? With
stunt teams really,

Sam Hargrave 13:09
you know, it really depends on the on the sequence, it depends on the movie, for example, the
since we're talking about it, we can use it as a reference, but the wonder in for extraction, one
that conceptually happened probably four or five months before we started filming, wow. And
then, you know, then it was playing around with some storyboard concepts. And then it was,
you know, play because originally, just to get a little history, film history, it was it was written
as a in the script as a very exciting, very long action sequence that would be you know, out
born any Bourne movie or any Bond movie. And when I read it, and saw the number of days,
we had to shoot it, I was like, that's gonna be real tough. Because we don't have the second
unit funds, we don't have the time, we only have certain amount of time to shoot it. How can
we take that amazing sequence and kind of bring it all into our main unit and keep the actors
involved as much as possible? And I was like, Well, what if we just did it all in one in real time.
So then you don't have to have all these different cutaways and doubles for stuff like so it was
actually grown or born out of necessity. And then, you know, once we kind of leaned into the
creative idea, then you know, four months of kind of conceptualizing, then you get with stunts,
and you start saying, hey, what's the how do we execute this? I want to have the actors in the
car driving safely. How do we do that? So it's like alright, let's design a backseat drive car or a
pod car where you drive from the rooftop and we're you're filming inside you can't see and so
how do we make it safe? How do we make it entertaining and believe And so once the creative
gets at least a through line, again, we try we prepare as much as possible. And then it's like,
like, like an actor going to set you prepare. And then the, the real magic comes from the
spontaneity of the moment, right and making choices in the here and now. And so there's a lot
of things. For example, the moment where rake is gonna throw the kid across the roof. That
action was always there jumping across the roof, but the pause and the character moment and
the, you know, back and forth between them, have a kid you trust me, he's no good, he throws
him across the room that was improvised, like we did, there wasn't a built in moment there for
that. But when we were there, we just said, you know, a lot of actions been happening, I think
we should pull back on that let's stop to have a moment for the characters to connect. And you
know, that it was a memorable moment in that in the action sequence. So, you know, overall,
probably from conception to execution was yet for four or five months.

SAM 16:01
Wow. Yeah. Awesome. And that 12 minute action seeing gains in extraction was frickin
awesome and it's there's so many films doing trying to do these like one takes or seeming like
one takes. But that one that you that you did was had so many different aspects in the space of
like 12 minutes like car chase rooftops in the you know, all that. Did you have much inspiration
from from other films? I mean, from anything for that sane, or did you just kind of I mean,
inspiration from everywhere, but you know,

Sam Hargrave 16:37
yeah, well, I mean, I have to give you got to get a lot of credit to Joe Russo, the writer he put a
lot of great stuff down on the page. So there's a lot of stuff there and then a lot of it comes for
me of being in the space where like I had an idea then it was written as there was there were
less fights in the the sequence as written, but I try to usually add some of that stuff just
because that's what I like to see and what I know I can do well so it's like lean into your
strength like you guys, I can do an Australian accent really well. So how about that to add some
more fights, but knew that we wanted to have it going to you know, start start with a bit of a
foot chase getting a car a bit of a car chase then you know get out of the cars lead through
some variation. A lot of it was to see the space too because when you when in India, the visuals
are so stunning you can't really look in any direction and not be just entertained by the
environment like it's so stunning. So we were like we need to get out of the car and see some
of this stuff and so you know that was inspired by the locations and so then you know get there
and go oh, this place is amazing. Let's find a way to utilize these stairs how do we how do we
utilize this rooftop and you know you start to or I do at least when I'm designing start to let the
sets and the location speak to me of like what what's the best most interesting way to
photograph this and what action can we then put here that will represent this place and
showcase it in the best light so a lot of my inspiration comes from being there and so that's
why location scouts are very important and having time to go ahead and see the spaces and
design the action around these amazing locations.

SAM 18:24
Yeah cool.

Max Belmonte 18:24
That's a lot I mean, I'd probably look at it and go how amazing is this cityscape but whereas
you're looking at it going oh hell we could throw a guy off that roof over there and

Sam Hargrave 18:35
you know with those roofs like for example that the the one that actually that are two Sun
Devils one Taurus awards for Sun awards is when they fall off of a balcony hit the awning and
the truck in the street brutal when you know yeah, thank you. Thank them they did it I just
asked him to you know, that's amazing. But that one you know when there's not an awning to
fall on sometimes you got to build what you need right so we we added that awning to certain
specific angle to so wouldn't be too fast but it would keep the momentum going and then we
parked the truck filled with you know, stunt pads and all of that kind of the right places and
rehearsed it. So sometimes when what you want is it in the space, you got to bring things that
you need to that space and augment the natural environment. And that's that's to me, one of
the magical things about filmmaking, right is that you watch that movie and you wouldn't know
that awning doesn't exist anymore. It wasn't there before it is not there. Now we put it there.
We filmed it. We made a great sequence out of it and then we put it gone. And the magic is
over or lives forever on film.

Max Belmonte 19:42
Yeah, that's amazing to see it all come together. It's full on I think, look to take it back. Several
steps. I think having completed a couple of basic stunt courses like designed specifically for
actors like how to move with with weapons and look like you're It's real, how to handle weapons
safely, how to, like the fight choreography, you know, very different to when Chung, you know,
Hong Kong Street Fighter, you know, I can really appreciate the benefits of that having worked
with a couple of stunt coordinators on set. And having that sort of behind me, I could turn up
and be bit more engaged in in how I need to communicate. Well, certainly, that's what's what's
worked for me, is that something you'd recommend for actors to sort of get a bit of an
appreciation.

Sam Hargrave 20:35
I always think any kind of movement background for for acting is helpful, because acting is all
about, as I understand it, there's so many different ways that, but it's just about being able to
express yourself fully in whatever, you know, situation you find yourself in and, and I, you
know, just where having a background in the physical discipline allows you more tools in the
toolbox, it you know, you've experienced pain or pushing your past yourself past a certain
point, per se, the discipline of martial arts, and then just the movement, understanding your
body and how to, because now you have the ability to play different characters, right. And so if
you want to be in action roles, I think it is not essential, because a great stunt team will put you
through those paces. But it is always helpful to come into that situation with as much
knowledge and training as possible. So I don't think there's ever really a bad physical discipline
to practice as long as you have a great coach and do it safely. And, you know, wisely.

Max Belmonte 21:41
How do you how do you approach working with actors? I mean, is it whether you've got your
stuff? Whether you got your stuntman hat on, or whether it's director, A D? Is it the same
approach? Like is it more collaborative? Or are you a dictator on set?

Sam Hargrave 22:03
Obviously, I mean, look at me with his beard. And everything. The fun, the fun of the job, both
as a stunt coordinator, action designer, stunt man, and director, I think is working with many
different kinds of people. And making movies is solving a puzzle. And each each part, each
piece of that puzzle, usually has a different name. And so you're less about it's more about
managing people and understanding the psychology of human behavior, like how do I say,
Okay, what do I need out of this person? And how do I get it, but not in a manipulative way. I
mean, it is technically manipulated, just like you manipulate the camera to get the shots you
want, you're, you're working with these actors, to get a performance and crafted performance
that you want. The most rewarding day on a set or moments in this business for me are when
you're collaborating fully when you in the actor or seeing eye to eye and you're 100% in
agreement and alignment on your goals, whatever that may be, it could just be doing a forward
roll for as your sub coordinator, you're like, Alright, I want to make sure you're safe. Here's how
you're going to do it. They do it. And you know, they've rehearsed it, and everything goes well.
And that's great, very satisfying. Or it could be an emotional moment. You know, when you're
directing, and you've rehearse this piece, or maybe you haven't, but you've talked about it
know where you want to go, and then you know, you're going to this in the same direction
together. And when you get there, it's pretty rewarding. So for me, the rewarding aspect, the
most rewarding aspect of directing is the challenge of working with all these different kinds of
actors, because every single one of y'all are different. Yeah.

SAM 23:48
Very true. Out of curiosity, so you've worked with some pretty big names. You worked with
chilies thrown in atomic blonde, and obviously, Chris, in extraction and all that they both like all
three of you are extremely talented people. Are they a dream? For for stuntman, director to
direct and to do action with I guess?

Sam Hargrave 24:15
Yes, the two names you name Charlize Theron and the Chris Hemsworth are, I worked with a
lot of great people when they're two of the most talented, hardworking and collaborative, which
I think is very important. Individuals that I've ever met. Yeah. Wow. And that that makes our job
easy, regardless of what the job may be like as a action director, excuse me great because
they are going to work hard. They show up for rehearsals, they put in the time they understand
what it is we're trying to do. And then what we're trying to do is helping them do what they're
trying to do more effectively. So they respectfully show up and they put in the time and then on
set. They're pushing it like I recently told the story of Shirley's was, she was the one asking for
taking 21 Once we've done 20 takes of this fight this is like, he's like, No, we're all like, oh my
gosh, like we're there. Everybody's beaten up. It's pretty, it's pretty good. It's pretty dark. And
she's like, No pretty good is not good enough, we go again, I

Max Belmonte 25:12
want it to be great, fantastic.

Sam Hargrave 25:13
So we do it again. And she was, you know, she was right. And she knows her body better than
anybody else that she knows what she can take. And anyway, but that that level of
professionalism to do whatever it takes to get the shot is very refreshing and Hemsworth is the
same way. He you know, even on this movie extraction to the we're filming right now, he he is
a I'm not gonna say a taskmaster, because that's my job. But he is he's right there. At the
monitors where, you know, after however many takes it, it has taken us to get it, right. He's
looking and we're observing. And we're like, you know, just look searching for the same thing,
which is the best performance in the moment for the film and this character. And having
someone like that, by your side is invaluable. And I want to some of the top experiences in this
business or working with people like that. Certainly key

Max Belmonte 26:03
takeout is to put the work in, there's no shortcuts. And a collaborative approach is really going
to help everyone to go over the line. I one story I remember from, from from the first extraction
movie, was Chris, asking the stunt, some of the stunt team if he could rehearse in his hotel
room, even the day up to the day before shooting is that that actually happened?

Sam Hargrave 26:27
It did. Yeah, we were I mean, the hotel room was, it was a like a hotel, conference room, like
they're all staying in India in a similar spot. And so we, yeah, after afterward, not just like an off
day, and it come to the evening, it was after a full day of shooting, we're out there for 1012
hours, he would be like I want to, I want to work more, because I feel like I can get better at
this. And, you know, so we didn't lose the whole stunt team. And I would join because it was the
director and I was shooting it. So I wanted to see it as many times as I could. And we would
show up and we'd rehearse for a couple hours just to get it, you know, just to put in the extra
reps, because there's that's the there's no substitute for preparation. Yeah, yeah. Like when
you and you can tell the difference. When you show up and you've you've put in the time and
putting the effort. And you're ready, that allows you to have spontaneous moments of
breakthrough and take your performance to the next level, whether it's physical performance,
or emotional once you put in the work, then you get to play. And then it's really fun, you know,
but there's other times when you're like, you know, you haven't put in the work and you're like,
oh, boy, what is day to be? Exactly. So you know, that is that. So that admonition to all those
young actors and stunt performers, or anyone out there is just put in the work, you know that
that is what you can control. So I'd say it's a lot of things in life you cannot control. But showing
up putting in the effort, you can control that. So do yourself a favor and show up

Max Belmonte 27:52
the Marvel films. We'll just take a quick moment to talk about the Marvel films because because
I feel like they've really increased up the ante when it comes to epic action sort of sequences.
Did did you get or how much creative input did you get in those how those sorts of scenes
would play out? Or do the rosette brothers just say, you know, they fight make it amazing?

Sam Hargrave 28:21
Yeah, I mean, that I have to give a lot of credit in, you know, homage to the Russo brothers in
the Marvel family. Because they they gave us a lot of creative freedom. There were certain
story beats that would be embedded in every actor sequences, but oftentimes, it was as simple
as or as broad as they fight. And it became, you know, it was a great collaborative experience,
because it was rarely just the fight team. Or just the VFX team or just the directorial team or
production team. It was a very collaborative group of people who came together to make these
amazing sequences because most of the time it was it was combination, we would do a lot of
inventive creative fight action, and then it would be handed off to the visual effects team and
they would augment what we were doing or take over a character if you will, like Iron Man, for
example. We do like in Civil War, the the battle between Bucky Cap and Iron Man in that old
you know, Reactor Group, that was three star performers and so sometimes the actors will
jump in there too. But the stunt performer in the Ironman suit and fighting with them hand to
hand but then it would be enhanced right for more replaced his performance of your place with
the digital asset. So it was always collaborative and a lot of times they would give they being
the Russo brothers would say, Hey, this is the feeling we want or this is the we want to make
sure that you know we're telling the story of you know, cat is never gonna give up. Bucky has
to his arm has to get you know, support For those who haven't seen it, but his arms got to get
lost in this moment and an Ironman has to, you know, push cap to the breaking point, whatever
that is the story that is trying to tell they would always be honing in on the performance or on
the storytelling. And so the we as the the fight design team would, and stunt team would then
take those, you know those guidelines and craft our action around it always keeping in mind
story and character because of every great action sequence within the character development
or moving the story forward.

SAM 30:33
So one of the last questions before we wrap up, Sam is, can you tell us anything about
extraction to anything

Sam Hargrave 30:42
I can, I can tell you that it is, you know, going to be twice as big twice as badass and twice as
cold as the first movie. And it's a very different feel a very different look. But it's so you know, a
lot of the same things and people fortunately came to love about the first one. So I'm excited
for priyada. Good to see it.

SAM 31:05
I'm so excited

MAX 31:06
Well, thank thank you very much for your time. We do appreciate it as a couple of
budding actors. Some great advice. Yeah, I've really appreciate it.

Sam Hargrave 31:18
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me on the show and keep doing what you guys are
doing. It's it's awesome.

Max Belmonte 31:23
You're listening to unemployed actors I'm M.

SAM 31:26
I'm Sam.

MAX

You'll hear us next week too.