Embracing the Improv Mindset with Su Mee Tan

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basic principle of improvisation. Yes. And so it's not just saying yes. So it's not about saying yes to everything.

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Of course we also have boundaries isn't about people pleasing? It's about being open.

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It's more as you say, to mindset and actually just randomly saying yes to everything. And that's something we could we could do. And anyone can do it.

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You can do it in team meetings.

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It's great to find new ideas, and it's fun.

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Welcome back to answer at work, and I'm your host, Katherine Stagg, Macy. I'm an executive and team coach, and I'm interested in the conversations that we do not have at work. And so how do we get better at embracing uncertainty? One of the tools that really helped me over the years is something called improv, if you remember the TV show, Whose Line Is It Anyway, that was all about performance based improv. But the essence of improv can be applied to leadership too. And my first experience of improv was actually in a leadership training program more than 10 years ago now that spanned pretty much the whole year. And repeatedly every time we came together for a week, in Spain, they put us through these improv exercises, which is all about responding in the moment to what was thrown at you, there was no ways to prepare, there was no ways to get it right. You just had to be fully present and kind of tune in to what you had available and work with that. It absolutely terrified me.

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This is someone who, whose whole life and identity has been around being the good girl about getting it right about coloring in between the lines, like how do you get an A star improv? I mean, the answer is you don't.

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So that aspect of the experience on that program gave many gifts, but really challenged my ideas of my in the moment abilities and what I was capable of doing and how I could be with uncertainty. It gave me huge confidence in my own abilities.

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And so I now incorporate some simple improv exercises regularly into team coaching.

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And the positive shift and conversation is astonishing.

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It's the same shift that I experienced like that sense of oh, we can we can trust each other. We can be present with each other in this moment, which is exactly why I bought on the best improv expert that I know.

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Sue me 10. So sue me is just more than a guest. She is a treasure trove of wisdom and with great expertise and poaching and an improv. And she believes that the key to building resilience, which we all want in improving performance, living more purposely is is improv so if you want any of that, then you're in the right place listening to the right episode. She regularly performs in improvised musicals, the mind gets blown. She runs improv courses for coaches, and uses improv as a tool in her public speaking and leadership development courses. We get into conversation about what improv is, and how do we apply to our lives as leaders. And we also play one of the improv games that I use regularly. It's so simple, you can start using the data today. So let's begin.

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See me welcome to unset at work, thank you. We're gonna talk about improv and start with your journey into improv. What got you to improv? I used to be a planner, I used to work as a project manager, and I planned everything like every single thing in my life. And so impro for me, didn't sound like something I really wanted to do.

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Because why would I make up stuff in the moment? If I could plan it, and just be sure that I knew what I was doing. And then one day, I was having lunch with a friend. And she said she signed up for an improv course.

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So obviously, my immediate reaction was good for you.

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There's no way I'm ever ever going to do that. And I got curious, because we really notice as coaches we get curious about so signed up for the course. The same goes as your friend. Yes.

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Yeah. After being very clear that I was never ever going to do that. And I loved it. There's a freedom I find in improvising something where you can't get it wrong.

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Yeah. Was your project plan wrong?

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Yes, this is freedom. Tell us more about what you do with improv. Now, because that started off as sort of personal exploration but now it's part of your work and your offering.

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Yeah, so I see improv as a as a life skill as a leadership skill. And it's an art as well.

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So I do two things. I'm still an improviser. I provide musicals for the brilliant people to to meet that is the art part of it.

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It's fun, and it's great and it's crazy. And I recommend everyone gives it a go at some point, maybe not musicals, but just improv. But also it's a life skill and it's a leadership skill. So what I do is I take improv principles, games, and I take my leadership coaching.

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I do a lot of public speaking coaching as well. And it's great to learn to speak when people ask you questions It's about managing your nerves, being yourself in confidence, basically being the leader, and being really in your body as well, because there's no, I mean, my experience of improv it's very, there isn't a right and wrong. So where do you find the source for being part of that exercise the firt My first experience was understanding how to program that and I know you've done as well. My first memory of it was being asked to stand in front of a group of like 25 people with three or four others, and pretend you're a vegetable in the supermarket.

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And the last 10 minutes before closing and that you want to get sold. So there I was, being an Overwatch team, for 25 people make a case for why I should be the vegetable that was bought and sitting down in like, complete giggles going, Oh, my God, that was the most fun I've had in a long time. Yeah, I remember that exercise. And I didn't like it at all. Because because I'm not a vegetable.

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This was very good example of why I didn't like improv and my resistance and not a vegetable.

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Don't be ridiculous. And also, yeah, you didn't tell me it was going to be a vegetable. And that is such a big shift was such a big shift for me doing improv and going okay, maybe I'm another vegetable, but in this moment I am. And that is the core of improv for me. So don't tell us about the principles you referred to.

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There are some core principles to improv. Yeah, I think it also depends a little bit on who you ask how many there are.

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So I would say one of the core principles of improv is Be present.

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Be present in the moment, be present with your partner, your scene partner, if you're playing a scene, and that can be applied to life and to leadership, be present with your team, listen to them. And make them look good. basic principle of improv is saying yes. And I know a lot of people go yes, but so I like your idea. But I would do something else. And an improv would go. I like your idea. And I'm going to build on it. And that's how you create good stories and good scenes. And I think really effective teams as well. It works in that way as well. So there's making somebody good, is a core principle and being present. The other core principle and it sounds like leadership one on one, doesn't it when you break it down like this? Is there a third one?

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Well, there's one that I really like is celebrate your failures or your mistakes. Because also an improv there are no mistakes that might be unexpected results.

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I experiences, every show I do, I'll walk on stage, and someone will say something, and it's not what I was expecting. And so it's about responding in the moment and going actually, that was not what I was expecting, and we'll use it, I'll take it as an offer. Another improv principle, everything is an offer. And you can create something from it. There's so much freedom. And then I just noticed that as you talk, like, it feels that you and I came from similar backgrounds or training around constraints, right and wrong, being very polar, and black and white, being in control is valued and valuable. And improv is really challenging all of that. Because you can't really be in control when you're improvising. And again, I feel that is the core of it. It's at the heart of improvising, there is no control, you have to give up control and trust that whatever life or your scene partner, whoever throws at you, you create something from it out of the project manager who clearly loved controllers flip into this world of being okay with not being in control. Was it? Was it just a flipping a switch? Or did you have to sort of do some inner coaching on yourself to, to embrace it? I think for me, it's a lifelong learning thing, I'm still learning, there are still moments where I find it really difficult to give up control. And I think it's just doing it, it's just practicing it. And this practice, we can estimate the practices that leaders can have that are outside of leadership that really help them show up as a leader for me like a somatic practice something I'm always encouraging my clients to have we missed anything that has you in the body like five rhythms or ecstatic dance or contact improv or yoga or something like that.

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This was like another one of those practices that you have.

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That's not for the sake of being a leader, but just helps you show up as a leader in all areas of your life. Yeah, I think there's a lot of knowing that we have and that we maybe emphasize, it's important that you know, stuff. But there's also the doing, it's the practice, it's the so I know I can say yes to people in my team, and I know I can make them look good. And I know that as a leader, it is my responsibility to bring out the best in people.

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But it's hard to do it. And even after a lot of practice, you might still fail and that's okay. It's another thing that I've learned from improv I feel I take more risks now.

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cuz I know what will fail sometimes I still make mistakes and that's okay. Because I can learn. And there's a confidence and coming back from that failure that improv has taught me. If you if you if you pass a bad line to your your partner in improv, and they can do something magical with it, you're like, wow, that's came out of you codes a bad pass, to reframe this idea of like, what's good or what's bad? What can I recover from if they can recover from that I can recover from that. And there's a confidence I think, and in knowing how, how wide your range is, from the and I love what you're saying about reframing it? Is your right who says what's right and what's wrong. Maybe I think I said the wrong thing. And then my scene partner thinks it's exactly what we needed to build the story. How do you use this with coaches? I know you have a program and training coaches to how to use improv, is it about leading in leadership as a coach, it's well that my program for coaches is specifically for certified coaches. But it's all stuff that you can apply to leadership into life, I'm going to say this over and over again, the improv improv really is a life skill and a leadership skill, and a coaching skill.

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Because as a coach, when you meet a new client, you don't really know what their topic is going to be, you probably know they found you, because you do something that they like, but you never know what they're going to bring to the session.

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So it's like improvising, someone will throw something out you in this case, a coaching topic. And the you just have to go with it, and play. And I also find that with coaches, especially newer coaches, and I was the same one I just certified, there's so many things that you learn, and you want to get it right. And so you stick to the rules, and you're in your head a lot. And what improv does is take you out of your head and just play and just see what happens. And sometimes it doesn't work, and that's okay, then you just move on.

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Like that I it's a skill after drop into team coaching, especially when I see teams having an helpful ways of talking about something. And it's usually there's lots of Yes, but so the conversation becomes very constrained. And after a while, some people just like, check out and it's like, well, what's the point because I just get get whatever I say just gets shut down by that. And then I do the Yes, and exercise, which we will say a bit more of just now. But the idea of building on other people's stuff, and it just expands expands the conversation. I mean, the room has all giggles and laughter and silliness because then I have no idea what, what, where's this going and why. And they start applying that afterwards. And other conversations I'm around and they say consistently there's a there's a creativity, there's a permission, there's a trust in each other that comes from that. And that is one I mean, that's one exercise that I use consistent because it's the one I favor like this, you know, that's there's a bazillion exercises, right? What What have you seen as a result of people using it in the as an outcome of people using improv is exactly what you say there's trust, there's a creativity, there's permission, it's giving yourself permission, giving other people permission to just go and try and unsay stuff. And I feel I want to emphasize that improvising does not mean you can just say anything, and someone else will make it right.

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I mean, it still helps that you know, your stuff, especially in leadership. I mean, onstage, there's a lot that you can do.

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But in leadership, you're not a good leader, just because you can improvise, you still need to know what you're doing. Yeah, that's a good point like this, this differentiated between winging it.

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And improvisation. Yes. Because I feel that you can be a good improviser once you've prepared and you know, your stuff. So improv is onstage, I know what that looks like, you get a suggestion from the audience, and you create a story. And it kind is that where there's a lot of training there, just like a leadership. I think improvising is a fantastic leadership skill.

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But as you say, it's not the same as winging it. So you do need the experience and the knowledge, generally just be a good person. And it's a really good differentiate, because I come from consulting, which and we're known for joking about winging it, you know, you you come up with an engagement and all about certain subject matter expertise. And then you get sold into another engagement, which is not your not your area of expertise. And there is a degree of winging it, because you don't know what you're doing. But you're drawing on some other experience. And that's not what we're seeing here. It's almost like improv as a way of being that you layer on top of the knowledge and the doing that you have as a leader. Yeah, that's a brilliant way of describing it.

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It's on top of it's not, instead of knowing what instead of Yeah, yeah, this is not Yeah, this is not getting you out of doing your homework or preparing for the team meeting or the conversation or anything like that. Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of the things that I teach people and I think that's one of the things that I enjoy the most. So When I do public speaking, coaching or training, I always say you need to be very clear on your key message are clear on the points you want to make. And then you let go the scripts and you improvise it, maybe you don't completely let go of it.

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But prepare, prepare, prepare, and then you can go let go and improvise. This are what some of your favorite exercises maybe we can do one of those. For this level, people are new to this, like they still got some of their favorite exercises for us at this level. I have loads, I don't think we have time for all of them.

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And to be fair, some work better in person and some work better when you can see people as well and where that we're recording audio at the moment. And you mentioned the yes and exercise.

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basic principle of improvisation. Yes. And so it's not just saying yes. So it's not about saying yes to everything.

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Of course, we also have boundaries. There's not about people pleasing. It's about being open. It's more as you say, to mindset and actually just randomly saying yes to everything. And that's something we could we could do that anyone can do. You could do it in team meetings. It's great to find new ideas. And it's fun. It is. It is a fun and fun. So we've planned to do this ourselves as a to give people an example.

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Because I think it's worthwhile doing when it's a mindset, like you said, one of the basic principles of improv. But to do it in a in a city extreme case is quite liberating to to then come back and apply it to the work. So let's do it in a fun example. Wait, how would you do lead us into setting setting this up? So you and I can display this briefly? Okay, well, it's really just you say something? And I have to say yes. And and then I finished the sentence. And then you respond by saying yes. And an intro improv style. We haven't come up with a topic for this exercise.

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So we'll have to come up with something now. How about you and I have had conversations about creating a podcast together.

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Sounds good. Yeah. So do you want to create a podcast with me?

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Yes, I want to create a podcast ready, because I think it would be.

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I think it would be fun. And we could have, we could invite guests from theater to teach us about life and leadership. Yes.

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And when we invite guests from the theater, we could play theater related games. And that could be an offshoot of the podcast, then could be like retreats, because some of this is done better in person. So the podcasts gonna have like a separate product around practicing this in person in the back of the theater. Yes. And that links back to what we were saying earlier about practicing, we could turn this into a regular thing, and people could come back and practice with us.

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Yes, and I'm ready to sing. I want to come back. I want to this is what I often do want to kind of go outrageous.

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Yes. And we could.

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What can we do? We could introduce a an exercise in each episode with theme for each episode could be an exercise.

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Yes. And we could ask people that listen to the podcast for suggestions for exercises or themes. And we get asked listen to the podcast to say what, like, what's your biggest leadership dilemma? And then you and I kind of do a agony on version of how would we apply the theater improv exercises to solve that? Yes. And we could make it interactive, and do online sessions where people can join and play those exercises with us.

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I can totally see this. You should do this.

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See how cool this is?

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I will say, Yeah, we will put a full stop here. Just a list is nowhere near where we are in this conversation in the game.

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Yeah, it's It always surprises me it just how pop pushes the innovation boundary and the permission to go through the silliness part? Or they're like, well, that's that's never going to happen to that. Oh, wow.

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That's possible pot. Yeah. And I think in teams, what's good about this is that if you give yourself that permission to just go crazy, that you probably end up with things that you don't end up actually doing. But you do push the boundaries on what's possible. And you might find more options that you would have done if you'd gone for it. Yeah, but budget time, people you know, yeah, we start with I mean, you knew a nice previous project managers would know this well.

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People budget and time constraints. So the three out of the triangle on the project management, like you'd start with as constraints and then try and make the project work or the idea work. Yeah. So you already start with everything that is not possible, which is just very eating doesn't really work, give yourself permission to dream big to think big, and then go back to actually, what do we have the budget and the time and the people for the work versions of this that I do with with teams is to have them plan a off site on the moon.

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That's the start. That's the starting point. And you can just see them like really senior people rolling their eyes in the head going, Oh, my God, this is ridiculous. Right?

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And they're like, Oh, my goodness.

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And so yeah, no one's gonna go to the moon. But the point is that they have some interesting ideas. I know that comes out interesting ideas for offsides or, or fun play. I think there's something about the fun and playfulness though that that we lose in corporate settings that improv exercises are just principles rather, invite back in. Yeah, and I think also, there's something about making it bigger, and going to the moon for an off site. Or another thing that I sometimes use, again, mostly in public speaking, coaching, is I get people to sell me a pen, or, or something else, you know, very, like an everyday object. And they all think it's weird, and it's over the top. But that's exactly what I want them to do stretch yourself. Because you're never going to present that way, you're not going to go, I have this brilliant project plan. And it's the best ever and you you all wanted. But if you can do that with a pen or something else, or no vision, or an aubergine, exactly, you can then channel that enthusiasm as well, when you sell your project plan, or whatever it is you're presenting. I was part of a teacher training program for five rhythms in, in Switzerland and back in September last year.

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And part of the training to be a teaching assistant further into the sort of movement practice is teaching leadership skills in their in their own way. And so they had to stand up in front of a group of 15 or so people. And as you stood up, you would be given a topic to talk about which is related to fire rhythms. And I could see here we're getting massively triggered in that massively, like overthinking and then having to stop and look at this little piece of paper with a question on it. And, and I had to reflect on why was it that that didn't bother me. And I think it really attributed to the sort of work around I know, I'm just like, I had the sense of sort of feeding into my belly going, I'm going to speak from my belly. And I think that's what improv gives you. I'm not practicing. What I'm saying is I take my 10 steps to the front there either. It's like, I have no idea until I face the crowd.

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And I feel into what it is. I want to say you're nodding your head as I do. Yeah, I think it's very much an in the moment saying and getting out of your head. And especially in improv, when you're an improviser on stage, there is no time to think because the audience is not going to sit there and wait for you to come up with something really clever to say. So you have to just go. I'm saying whatever comes into my head on my heart, or whatever you want to connect to, and just go with it. And it may not be brilliant.

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That is okay. I think we've made the case for people trying out a bit of improv exercises. I hope so.

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Have we done our job? I think so. So what would you like? I mean, if someone's interested in in this conversation and wanting to incorporate this in their work, how would you suggest that they do that? Aside from taking an improv course? Yeah, I think taking an improv course, is a it's a big step. I know a lot of improv companies also offer workshops. So you might want to look for that if you want to give it a go do just do a one off workshop, because that's pretty scary enough. If this is not your if this is all new to you. Try the yes and exercise.

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Or if you don't want to use it the way that we just did. See if you can do it as a mindset. So next time you walk into your team meeting, for example, just go in with an intention of maybe not saying yes to everything, because you don't have to agree with everything. But seeing the good thing, the thing that you like, and whatever someone says, which is also a yes, and thing and then build on other people.

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And listen, we're all always, always very quick, I think in in saying what we don't like about things, another way of framing Yes. And that might sit better with some people is what I like about that idea. Because there's always something that you like, exactly, there's there what can you find right in what you're hearing? I like that you couldn't you can go full on and go like see me and God sign up to improv and change your life that way. Or you can try the exercise or you can just use those words or you can just use it as a mindset. And I think if you do go all in and you take the improv courses, you'll change your mindset as well. But you don't have to do that. Just it's just saying to yourself, right, next meeting I go into next time I speak to someone, I'm going to find the thing that I like whenever someone says, Well thank you for your time and bringing in your inspiration for for the work and the passion for the work I'm going to put in where people can find you your website, LinkedIn. They want to get in touch with you. They can find you that way. Any final words for us.

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I just want to thank you for for having me, of course, but also for making improv part of your podcast because, yes, it is part of my job. And yes, of course, I want to build my business. So it's always good to talk about it and get the visibility. But for me, it's so much more about believing that improv really is the answer to almost everything.

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Spreading the word, spreading the joy, spreading the love. So thank you for creating that space to talk about it. Welcome.

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I like that. Yeah, improv is a life skill, life and leadership skill would say yes, absolutely.

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That's beautiful. Well, thank you, thank you.

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I do feel like I am the luckiest person to live, to be able to play games like this, as we did with see me for a living on a podcast and that you are kind enough to be listening in. But more seriously, I hope you feel inspired to try this out. Try the yes and exercise and to look up maybe an improv course even or get in touch with see me and see how she can support your organization. Improv has gifted me confidence in my abilities.

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And I've just learned to trust myself more in uncertainty and I hope that you get that tune.

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Remember that you know, improv isn't about winging it. It's about knowing your material really well, which you probably do. And knowing the context.

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Maybe it's a conversation you need to have maybe it's an off site, and then just tuning into yourself and letting go and trusting that you can adapt with what comes your way. So you got this. Cynthia wingwoman signing off until next week.