ENCORE – How to go freelance and thrive with Caley Dimmock

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 0:00

All right. Welcome to unset at work I am your host, Katherine Stagg Macy and executive and team coach are fascinated in the conversations that we don't have at work. I'm taking a short break for the next few weeks. And so I've hand picked a few of the most popular episodes that I believe deserve a second. Listen. For this week's encore. I'm bringing back the very first guest episode I ever recorded, which also happens to be the most or the second most downloaded episode. And it's a conversation about going freelance and thriving with Kelly Dimmick. going freelance is opting out. So that's something I've heard mostly about people sitting in corporate jobs. You know, they say things like, they just can't hack the real job. They're taking the easy way out. It's a lifestyle choice. I agree. I think freelancing is opting out. But none that way. I think going freelance is about opting out of the corporate bullshit. It's about opting out of endless mindless reorganizations, which don't make any sense and means opting out of having shitty bosses that you have to navigate the whole time. You know, going freelance requires back loads of courage and commitment and personal vision. But really, at the heart of it, going freelance is saying my mental health matters more than my fear of change. So I don't judge you if you stay in corporate, I don't judge you if you leave. That's not what this is about. It's about making the choice that suits you and your life and really knowing the costs and the benefits to you. And that's what this episode is all about. My guest is Kelly Dimmick someone I consider a friend and a mentor and a coach. She's a multi six figure Freelancer herself, and provides clients around the world with market business coaching services. She's nobody wanted to be an entrepreneur from the age of four. It is such an adorable story that she has with us and went into full time self employment in 2017 and hasn't looked back. She has a real passion for helping others and that comes across in the interview to build a life in a business that they truly love and they don't need to escape from. She really made freelancing work for her and her family, which would made her such perfect guest for this episode. This episode is full of personal stories and practical tips. Even me called out in some of the reviews for the podcast like this particular episode for its pragmatism and useful insights. I asked Katie the question that we all want to know like what makes for a freelancer? And can anyone be a freelancer? Let's go hear what she thinks about that question and a whole lot more. Hello, calian. Welcome. Welcome to NC at work.

Caley Dimmock: 2:28

Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 2:31

I was admiring your pictures on Instagram the other day in here this morning. Actually, you were out for a walk because you're a freelancer and you get to define your own terms. And noticing the lovely four colors in Nova Scotia, which is where you're at? Yeah,

Caley Dimmock: 2:43

yes, it's a beautiful time of year here. It's my favorite time of year. I like it even more than summer. So, yes, had a really nice family walk this morning before diving into my work.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 2:54

That's what we're going to talk about today we're gonna talk about thriving as a freelancer because for me, you're one of the model examples. I know, I know quite a bit of the story as to how you got there. So I want to kind of get into the reasons and the left's and rights that you must have taken to get to where you are, which is a very successful businessperson today. But I understand this dream started when you were four, which sounds like a totally adorable story. Do you want to share that with us?

Caley Dimmock: 3:17

Sure, yeah, let's get into it. When I was four years old, I have memories of this one time, I went around my room and collected all my toys and clothes that I didn't like anymore, and I laid them out on my bed. And then I invited my cousins and the other children who were overplaying into my room for my yard sale on my bed. Of course, nobody had any money, right. So I didn't, there were no sales. But I was just always that person. I was always thinking of how I could make money or just have my own little operation. I was always the kid with a lemonade stand when I was 12, I mean, jewelry and sold them at the local flea market. When I was 13, my dad bought me a sewing machine. So I would buy scraps of fabric from the fabric store. And I would make pillows and sell them to my classmates. And it just kind of continued from there. So I think that I've just always really enjoyed this idea that you can create something that is completely your own and not have any rules to follow and see what you can do with it. It's a lot of fun,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 4:25

but it doesn't sound like it was about money. Money wasn't the drive. It was more about the creativity and the freedom.

Caley Dimmock: 4:30

Exactly. I think that freedom is the number one driver for me still to this day when I look at all of the ventures I had, you know as a teenager and then into my early 20s. Up until today the main driver has always been freedom. It's been wanting to work on my own terms. Choose when I work, choose where I work, choose what I do for work. I get bored very, very quickly, and following rules and Other people's structure has always been a challenge for me. And entrepreneurship just always appealed to me because it was a way out of all of that it was this opportunity to live life exactly as I wanted to. And I mean, doesn't that sound pretty great?

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 5:14

You did end up working corporate at some point in life, right? So took me through teenagers into corporate because I want to know the trigger out. But let's just get into how do you get into corporate? What were you doing? Yeah, so

Caley Dimmock: 5:26

I ended up getting a job in marketing and design in 2014. And that was for a commercial real estate firm. And the funny thing about that is that my resume was terrible. I don't know how I got the interview. But I got the interview. And then they told me, we weren't going to hire you. But you blew everybody away on the skills assessment, because that's who I was. I started teaching myself Adobe programs when I was 17 years old, because I just love learning. And so I started teaching myself Adobe programs and marketing skills early on, but I didn't have the degree, I didn't have this long resume of experience. But I got my in by showing that I had the actual skills. And I think that was a big teaching for me that, hey, if I can prove that I can get the results, then do I have to do things like everybody else do I have to have the degree do I have to have this linear path, and it really opened my eyes. And then from there, I offered to volunteer at a large media company in Vancouver. And I was hoping to volunteer in marketing. And they had seen some of the design work I'd been doing. And they asked me to become a UX intern. And I was petrified. I was not trained in UX, but I knew how to use the programs. And I knew what I taught myself. So I just said, yes, it became a practice of saying yes, because I needed opportunity. And then once I was there, I very quickly worked my way up to become the national brand and marketing manager and lead a national rebrand. And so that was an incredible opportunity. But I also became very aware of the fact that I was in a very toxic work environment. And that was ultimately what made becoming a freelancer almost a necessity at the time, if I can be honest, because I was being headhunted by other companies. But every time I had an interview, or I got one of those calls, had this pit in my stomach, just feeling like I could do that and that safe. But I know that's not what I really want, was there

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 7:33

at the moment sitting in corporate going, again, this is like this is the red line. This is I'm out. There were

Caley Dimmock: 7:39

a couple of scenarios, and not all of which I feel I can talk about at length to a public audience. But I will say there was one day and this is pretty extreme, because I am somebody who is really focused on career and work. But there was one day I really had just had enough. And I felt so desperate, I ended up going into the stairwell and I sat down on the stairs because I just needed a minute and I burst into tears. And that's not very likely at work. And a co worker at the time had come into the stairwell. I don't remember why. But he looked at me and said, Are you okay? I said, I don't think so. And he looked at me and he said, You need to get out of here. Like he knew he knew that things were becoming pretty bad. And then over the course of the next few months, nothing had improved. And it was becoming very clear to me that this was not something that was ever going to improve. At that point. A couple of other things happen that really sealed the deal for me and gave me an opportunity to see the possibility of what I could have what life could be like. And one of those was that our office was under renovation, we're moving offices, the new office was under renovation, the current ones lease had expired. And so we all had to work from cafes for about a month or from home or wherever you wanted to work from. And as somebody who's aspiring to work for themselves, that felt pretty nice. So here I was, all of a sudden, I still had work to do, but I was self a sudden doing it on my own terms. And I remember thinking, this is what I want. I love this. When the office was ready. I was there for two weeks time and it just wasn't the same. I couldn't picture myself there for even a month longer. I just knew I knew like this is over. I've got to make a change. And so one day when I was walking to the skytrain to get downtown and this was in Vancouver, I called my dad that used to be my routine. I used to call my dad on the way to the skytrain, and I called him one day and I said Dad, I don't have kids, I don't have a mortgage, I have no liabilities. I have to give this a shot now, before life becomes more complicated because I'm not sure I'm going to have that same bravery at that time. And my dad came from the military and He was never very supportive of anything risky. But this one day, I listen. And he said, I think you're right. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that my dad had just said, Yeah, do it. So I handed in my notice the next day. And that was that.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 10:16

A shout out to dev up there. Give us the message in the right way. Yeah, my dad something similar, in a way again, like, out of the ordinary. And that's what really stands out. Yeah, when they do that, I also hear your story, a lot of sort of intuition of just a strong sense of awareness that you were in the wrong place. And then a cognitive plan or like, there are things I can do. But just a real sense of this feels wrong for me.

Caley Dimmock: 10:38

Absolutely. There was always that sense of this isn't for me. And that started even before I got into corporate that started even in the regular school system, I was always a little bit different. And I never fit in. I, I got through this system, because I happened to be very lucky in that I understand the things that are taught in the school system and academics. I'm one of the lucky ones. So I would skip class, I went to university for a semester, I skipped the entire last month, and I still pulled a four, a 4.0 GPA. But that's only because I'm lucky, it's not because I worked for us because I was lucky in this draw of what kind of intelligence or things I understand and what kinds of things they want you to know, there, I could just pull it out of thin air, I was lucky. So I always knew that I didn't fit into that system. And I knew I wasn't going to be able to stay in university, which is why I left. And then once I got into corporate it went from a sense of intuition and knowing to a sense of doom, it became a sense of doom, of waking up with absolute dread, absolute dread and depression sinking in and it got very dire. And I knew if I don't make a decision, soon, I'm wasting my time. I'm wasting my life,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 11:59

with water wasting time. It's like fight how I fight for my life. Like this is not the life that I want. Exactly. And your story is not unusual, right? It's just saying that corporate systems are so inhumane. There was a word someone else used to do that last week and like, oh my god, it's just just sums it up that we create these systems that are having either either toxic or just don't allow you to thrive as a human. Yeah, I agree. Do you think not fitting in as a glove? I'm interested in this idea of like, what makes for a good Freelancer like and anyone be a freelancer?

Caley Dimmock: 12:29

I love that question. Because sometimes when I tell my story, and it's I was this little weirdo, which I was, sometimes I think people don't always see themselves in that. But the vast majority of successful freelancers, I know, had no plans of ever becoming a freelancer, or self employed service provider, they had no plans of it. And they're wildly successful in some of these people, they have the degree, they did all of that. And it felt relatively easy for them, or it felt at least normal for them. One day, something happens and it can take one life event or it can be a very slow build. And you wake up and you say, hmm, maybe there's a way I would like better.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 13:08

Do you think anyone can be a freelancer?

Caley Dimmock: 13:10

Absolutely. I think anybody can be a freelancer. Absolutely. I think it's about knowing your strengths, knowing where you struggle and planning accordingly. For those, for example, a lot of people want to become freelancers, because you set your own hours and you work whenever you want. Well, I have ADHD, and structure is incredibly difficult for me unless it's set, like unless it's totally set in stone. So I'm a freelancer. But I work nine to five, because I know that's an area where I struggle, where if I said, You know what, I'm going to work whenever I want as the work comes, there's a good chance that I'm going to feel incredibly overwhelmed. And I'm going to start putting things off more in the last minute. Whereas if I set up this structure for myself now that I know I can adhere to it's helpful. So it's all about knowing where your strengths are. And if you don't feel like you have any sort of business instinct, well, there's help for that, right? Where can you ask for help? Where can you learn? We live in this beautiful era, the information age, you can teach yourself or learn anything. There's so many examples of systems out there too, to make it work for you. So yes, I 100% believe that anybody can can work for themselves. Sometimes people don't want to take the risk, or they they think they couldn't do it. But I guarantee there's a workaround for every problem you can think of if you're afraid because you don't want to feel isolated. You really like working in a team. While there's co working spaces. There's communities, there's other freelancers you can get together with if it's the risk aspect, oh, the stability, maybe you have an entire family to support right now. It's not as easy I'm not gonna lie, that's not as easy to just hop to freelance. But there are ways you can plan for that and to mitigate risks as much as possible ahead of time. You'll know in your gut if It's something you want, if you get lit up at the idea of being your own boss, it's probably a good indicator. But then we make a lot of excuses for ourselves. And we stop there, we let the idea stop there, instead of thinking of the potential solutions for those hesitations,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 15:15

I can relate to your point like none of us ever planned to be freelance 10 years ago, I would have said, I'm a corporate person, like through and through like, something about the family story about how we show up as employees. It's kind of my family narrative, fell in love with coaching worked, and I couldn't do it in the context I was in. And so the only way was to start my own business. It's interesting you say that, that anyone could do it, because I would have thought that people who are risk averse couldn't but you're right, there's a pragmatism in that it's like, let's be honest about what what do you see as the risks? And how do we, which is what I appreciated your pragmatism? Because for those listening who didn't know him, he's actually my business coach do, which is why they're very, there's a there's a pragmatism of like, well, let's be honest about what's getting in the way. And and what are the risks and the fears? And what's the mitigation against that? Because as you said, someone would have mitigated in some way?

Caley Dimmock: 16:01

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that you need to ask yourself, if you're thinking about this is what is the worst case scenario and be very honest with yourself about that. So plan for the worst case scenario, because if you have a solution to the worst case scenario, then there's really not much risk, right. For me at the time, as I mentioned, I didn't have a mortgage and and have kids, I was being headhunted by other companies, I was in a good position. And yet, I was paralyzed by fear. But when I was able to ask myself, what's the worst thing that can happen? The worst thing for me at the time was, well, I'll have to get another job. And that worst case scenario is oftentimes the worst case scenario for a lot of people who are considering going freelance, a lot of these people are coming from professional backgrounds, where if you have to hop back in the job market, after two or three months, you can do it, we often will see our actions as final and it's important when going freelance or self employed to not make it the end all be all, to not put that much pressure on it. If you put so much pressure on it, oh, I made this decision, I have to succeed, that right there actually sets you up for failure. Whereas if you say, You know what, I'm gonna give this a try. And if it doesn't work out, I can always go back to my previous situation, wow, that opens up a lot, takes a lot of the pressure off and makes it a lot more fun.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 17:17

Do you think you have to? Because that makes me think of Agile methodology and fast fail in the startup world? Do you think you have to have a different relationship with failure as if you're willing to go freelance?

Caley Dimmock: 17:27

I think that you grow a different relationship with failure, you almost have to practice failure. And yeah, I think one of the most important things is to learn how to zoom out to not evaluate your efforts on a day by day, week, by week basis, it takes time to build up success. It's not always an immediate thing. So I think if you can look at your small failures, knowing that you're also having small wins, I think that's really helpful and to only really be evaluating your success over a longer term period. I think that that's really helpful.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 18:05

Yeah, zooming out is, I think one of the dangers of freelancers that you lose perspective, because you don't have the sort of organizational echo chamber to talk stuff through. And one of things has helped me is having a business coach, having peer entrepreneurs, and just having coffee sessions with them. If there's water cooler sessions in the corporate world that you have to replicate, to have some perspective and to get someone to help you zoom out, because I think it becomes very lonely. It can become very lonely, if you don't set up the structures around that.

Caley Dimmock: 18:33

I agree. And you almost become your own silo. Yeah, we talk about silos in the workplace. When you're freelancing, you're not have anybody to bounce things off of whether that's a coach or community, you become your own silo. And you end up just going in circles and circles and circles and becoming overwhelmed. So yes, it's incredibly important. I agree. You mentioned

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 18:52

about success, which I think is interesting. Like, I think being a freelancer running your own business, and maybe there's some work, we should unpack that definition challenges you and what does success mean? I speak for myself like in corporate environment, 60s was the next promotion success was the net, it was very externalized. And always in the control offering the control over the people think you go freelance, you have to revisit that relationship, like what does success mean for you in this context?

Caley Dimmock: 19:19

Absolutely. And I think that it becomes really easy to lose sight of why you actually went freelance, because in my world, especially where I'm coaching, other service providers, coaches, freelancers, a lot of them come to me with goals of hitting 10k months hitting six figures, and I've been guilty myself in marketing that way as well. And I've only recently started to getting away from that because I see people who are so desperate to hit those financial goals, that they'll do anything to make it happen and they're jeopardizing their health, their time, their relationships. And when I think of success So what true success is, I think that it's a holistic picture, I don't think that you can be truly successful in one area of your life without being successful in at least some others as well. And most people want to work for themselves to have autonomy, to choose when they want to work, where they want to work, who they want to work with, right. So, in my eyes, my personal view of success in this moment today is if I can support my family financially, I'm not overworked, overwhelmed, overstressed. And I have time for my family as well, that is success to me. Whereas a few years ago, I was really focused on just the financials. But as soon as you lose the other parameters, then is it really success anymore? I would venture to say, No,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 20:52

I think the going on freelance entrepreneur journey is an invitation for personal development, because you have to answer those larger existential questions of what does success look like for you? What does happiness look like what it does the meaning and fulfillment come for you, when you have agency and autonomy to do the work you want to do or work with the people you want to work with? Yeah, and then you and I've talked about before, but me getting caught up in very old patterns of performative behavior of you know, I'm going to get the shutdown and get it out, they'll be perfect. And like, service and wash, like, I'm

Caley Dimmock: 21:22

not going to get a bonus, I'm not gonna get patent, I've got no boss to pat in the back. I'm gonna get a bonus, because I got it out there. And yet, and yet, I share this because I think we, they, they're insidious ways of behaving with ourselves. I've been doing this for 10 years. And we kind of uncover this a few months ago, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this thing's still there again. And it's like, yeah, because this is an invitation as an entrepreneur to be in a life long journey of self reflection and growth. Absolutely. And entering entrepreneurship forces you to face a lot of patterns that have been learned along the way, where, you know, when we're in corporate or working for somebody else, it's a bit of a different situation, you just kind of told what you need to do. So you just do it, and you do it well, and that's kind of it. But when you have full agency over yourself, all of a sudden, in a working environment, you start to notice things, and some of it can be really uncomfortable, I can relate a lot to what you just said, actually, because I grew up really getting my attention from caregivers through achievement, I don't have many memories of getting attention or affection just for the sake of it. I learned that, oh, if I achieve, I'm good. If I achieve I'm loved. If I achieve, I will not be abandoned. And so I grew up with always doing always achieving always putting out the next thing. I realized that pattern only a few years ago. And then it was really only Honestly, when I had my daughter, where I was forced to stop, I had to stop, I had a pretty terrible pregnancy. And I had to surrender. I think it was through that practice that I really learned a different meaning of achievement, and was really able to look at the why behind all of that. And I think that, that kind of work having to look back into your childhood, for reasons for patterns. That's not something you really think about when you're working in corporate, right. But as soon as you start working for yourself, you become very aware of everything you do, because you are your business all of a sudden. So it's a whole new Pandora's Box.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 23:40

Was this to blame, right? Yes, you can't. You can't blame marketing for lack of vision, you know that there's getting in the way of your brilliant project or the finance director who won't fund this or it's like you are everything. So if it's not going well, it's with you. And what's that about?

Unknown: 23:58

I love that. And I had never thought of it that way. And that makes so much sense. It's almost like when you live by yourself and there's dishes everywhere. Dirty, it's like okay, well, I've been a little lazy, right? But if you live with a roommate or a partner, and there's dishes everywhere in the floors, the first thing you might do is go hey, why aren't your dishes done? Instead of oh, shoot, maybe those are my dishes.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 24:21

I live with the girlfriend for several years and I remember things are going missing and my first thing was always like wherever you put things with when things go missing with the same frequency now but I got to do is play with dog. It's like it doesn't work you see, yeah, it took me a while. A lot of it through coaching really, and therapy of my own to realize how much of our past informs how we show up at work. I feel like it's outdated, but I still hear it and frustrates me like we'd be my personal stuff at home. You're like well, good

Caley Dimmock: 24:52

luck with that. There's no such thing good luck. It's not possible.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 24:55

Yeah. If you think you think you're doing that successfully. You're deeply kidding yourself.

Caley Dimmock: 24:59

I think too. A lot of leaders and, you know, C suite, I think that there's a big focus on being rational all the time at the workplace are thinking logically. But you know, they've proven that our decision making capabilities actually come from the same part of our brain as our emotional center. And without that, I'd have to look up where this study came from, or this finding, but it was about when they were doing these to do lobotomies. And they found that when they change that part of the brain, all of a sudden, this person couldn't make regular, everyday living decisions. And so I think this concept of like, separate your emotional self, from your logical self, and don't bring your emotional self to work, it doesn't work that way. And I think you and I also know that some of the greatest things that happen in business are through intuition. That notion of leaving out that and only bringing logic leaves a lot of possibility on the table that goes unrealized,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 26:01

I would add in feelings as well, right? Because there's they knew this through the head, the heart and the gut. What am I rationally thinking about this? How do I feel about this? And then what's my intuition saying and kind of triaging those sort of three aspects of self, any three of those, but the fact that there are sort of three data points that we have access to that it's good timing that the episodes going to drop after this one is all about feeling your emotions, feeling your feels at work, and why you should be feeling it feels? That'll be a good one. Yeah, lots of myths around that. There's the notion of burst of burnout. Because I've, I would say, Hang close a bit myself, I don't know. But in a horrible place, at least twice in the 10 years that I've done this, because being the Sales Machine, the marketing machine, as well as being inverted commas, the product to the person who's doing the work was balanced, I really struggled to get it right. And I feel like burnout is a people get burned out in corporate organizations, but there's an aspect of burnout. That's the shadow side of Freelancer running your own business. I wanted to get any thoughts on that?

Caley Dimmock: 27:01

Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. Burnout is very common. When you're working for yourself, all of a sudden, it's only you. And if a ball drops, it's because of you like we were just saying. The other thing that I think you only fully realized, once you're in it is exactly what you were just saying you become the Sales Machine, the marketing machine, the doing machine, the admin machine. And if you don't have a natural instinct, or you don't like doing one of those areas, I think that resentment can be created really quickly. And that, in my opinion, leads to burnout. I think when we are forced to do things every day that we don't want to do, I think that can lead to burnout. So I think there's obviously quantity of work that you have to do. But aside from time, I think that it's mental load, oftentimes as well, that gets us into burnout, because we're juggling so many different aspects of our businesses all of a sudden, and it's the number of decisions all of a sudden that we have to make as well. I think a lot of people don't understand why CEOs get paid so much. I agree that there's a lot of discrepancy. And I think that most of them probably are overpaid. However, when people say oh, they don't do anything all day, why are they being paid that much, they're actually doing mental gymnastics in their mind all day long. And I don't know about you, but I find the mental load and mental exhaustion, far more damaging than the actual time side of it. So this is something that I think a lot of freelancers run into, once you get over that hump of finding your first clients, once you're actually getting clients on repeat, it happens really quickly for a lot of people. And they get to a point very quickly where they have to stop, take a little break and pivot and reevaluate. What am I actually doing here? And how can I improve this machine? Do I need to increase my rates? In order to take on less clients? Do I need to dump this particular project altogether? Because I'm feeling terrible and resentful towards myself or towards the client doing it? There's so many things that can come up out of nowhere, it seems like for some people, they don't expect it. They think, oh, this is what I wanted to do. And all of a sudden, this is not what I want to do

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 29:18

was back to that self awareness, a reevaluating just because you're on the path of running the business and you've wanted to do doesn't mean taking on the shape that you want and serving what you want out of the business. Yeah. context switching is really hard as when you run your own business, like everything from it, we had some tech problems and setting up this conversation. And I jokingly said to you, if I had an IT manager, I'd fire them. Because the degree of technology issues I'm Adam and I get just that rageous if someone is actually uncharged, it's actually me. But so far, it's not a priority for me, right, because I'm doing invoicing and the financing and the content creation and the coating and I think you make a good point. I think for me, burnout was associated with scarcity because I didn't get freelance I changed career In a free on structure. So I would consulting in the world that understood me in the consulting in IT tech consulting, to executive coaching where in the world and tech industry at the time put any value in that so couldn't leverage the networks, I was starting again, sending something that no one understood what it was, we're ready to buy. So I ended up in scarcity issue, which I think could have caused the burnout in my head and thought, I think you make a really good point about the switching of what you have to do, and how you can get yourself in a corner having few clients that you actually hate, and you like, takes me a while to wake up. I'm, I'm a choice I can find my clients. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Something you and I both do, which I think is a little tip worthwhile sharing, which is this idea of cod, I think that you

Caley Dimmock: 30:41

should lean on that because you actually inspired me to do it. I had heard of them before. But I had always assumed that it was mostly people who had really large teams who were doing it right. And so I never really thought of oh, I should I should do that. But you know, what really nudged me is the fact that I've got a 13 month old at home, a very loud little lady sometimes. So I was like, You know what, it sounds really nice to go to a different location and see if it jumps up some creativity. So I think Catherine, you should share a little bit about that, because you were my inspiration for finally taking action.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 31:19

I don't know where I got the idea from either. But I think it's useful if you're thinking about starting your own business to know that you could take a day, I think I take two days, I hire a place in LA by b&b About an hour away. So we're really nice, good Wi Fi. And then I just hunker down with a whole bunch of things that I've been wanting to get on with. It's what I call deep work is a guy who writes very eloquently. And this guy called Cal Newport, his book, deep work is brilliant. And he talks about as knowledge workers, we need to carve out time for ourselves and be very intentional with the use. I mean, he's got like three PhDs and five books and seven children or something like that. It's like the fact that manda tubes, anything to that degree is, is a measure of how well he manages his time, he doesn't use email, oh, my gosh, he's part of the MIT computer science department. So he's not a bad idea. That is interesting. So back to the cod. I think I crafted it off the back and say, idea of deep work. So what do I do, I think about the podcast guests that I want to have, what are the content I want to create or a new product I want to develop or that thinking that you want to sit down just give me a few hours, and I posted notes and some colored pens and and I'll practice that problem that you have that sort of time. And because there's no external interactions, no one knows where you are. You tell the world that you're out. It's incredibly successful. I think you use the last one as a photoshoot to take some photos for a new launch of one of your programs. Right? Yeah,

Caley Dimmock: 32:40

I did. So that in itself, I wouldn't have called a CEO day. But I did do a CEO like three day thing in September, but the previous one, I had rented out a space nearby to just film, I think I filmed 17 free meals in a day. And I've been meaning to create a piece of content about that experience, because I don't recommend it. But then the following month, I did book a place for myself for a few days. And I had the same concept as you were I was using that time to make the big decisions to think about that big high level stuff. Because in the day to day you're doing doing doing thinking about all the things you have to do, and especially if you're at home in your home environment. And yeah, getting out I think is so important. I'm actually hoping to do another one of those soon to plan my first quarter of 2023. Because I haven't been able to do that yet. And I realized, well, that's really difficult here, because I've facing everything else. So I need to change my environment. So I can get a little bit clearer and make those decisions

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 33:43

of things like same thing on a walk earlier, like I passed the vember. And I'm not entirely sure what's going on. Where do you create space for yourself, zoom out, as well as sort of superpowers of over food answer. One of your favorite topics is Facebook ads. And I might Yeah, up to you saying that's how we first met you started my Facebook ads for a year in Africa. total badass. And you also ran a course you ran a training course to train people how to run their own Facebook ads cold traffic turn up for super cute name. Yes. If you're gonna go freelance Now, where do you think Facebook ads fit in to the sort of the marketing or amplification of someone's message as a freelancer?

Unknown: 34:25

Yeah, there's two sides of it. I think you can use Facebook ads to get leads and I'll talk about that in a second. But for me, Facebook ads is what allowed me to really explode my business because when I first went freelance, I was offering so many different services. I was offering organic social media management, I was building websites, I was doing graphic design. I was writing blogs, I was doing photography, I was doing videography. I was doing SEO. I was also running ads and this was a lot but I learned pretty quickly that I was I had an aptitude for ads, and I really liked doing them. And I realized that, unlike a lot of the other services, you can charge your rates can be based on the results you get or how good you are, right? It's a knowledge based service, which is really cool and knowledge based services, I think, have the most opportunity for premium rates. And if you're good at it, then you're not in the weeds for a ton of hours. So it really allows us this freedom and through running ads, I've created a lot of freedom for myself and my business, you know, if if I want to, I only have to work part time, and I can support my entire family. And that's such a beautiful thing. If somebody is in that realm of marketing, or they have an aptitude, I say there's three main aptitudes that makes somebody really good at ads. And it's creativity, psychology, and math. And of course, it's usually the math piece that people go with, maybe not. But you have to at least like looking at data, I think in order to really like running ads. So I'd say that's one thing, if you have an aptitude or an interest, I think becoming an ads manager is an excellent, excellent choice for freelancing. And then on the other side, regardless of which service you offer, if you learn how to run ads, you have somebody running ads for you, it just opens things up significantly, right? I know with you, Catherine, we built your email list. And you can pretty much build it as quickly as you want to build it. If you're willing to put some money into ads, and you have somebody who's got a good aptitude for it, running them for you. You can also if you have a different type of business, like let's say that you I don't know you're a freelance writer. Well, you can do a lead generation campaign just sending leads to a landing page and get leads there that you follow up with by phone call. I think that overall paid ads are not necessary. But if we're looking at a very well rounded picture of your marketing, as a self employed service provider, consultant, freelancer or really any type of business, I think that they're unnecessary piece at a certain point, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily always going to be the first thing you want to do. There are a lot of things that should come first. And I do think that ads kind of amplify whatever is working. Well like Katherine, if you would come to me, and you're like, I've never had a lead magnet before. And I have no email list. And I have no website, I'd be like, well, we should probably do that stuff first.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 37:24

Right? Well, no, your ideal client is like, that's that was a big learning for me, like, knowing what I do is one thing know who I want to do it with? Or you know who the ideal client is? Marketing wasn't my background, but it was yeah, there was a real clarity on that, that I didn't have. Yeah,

Caley Dimmock: 37:37

absolutely. So I definitely think that ads are a very helpful piece of a full picture. I think that things have certainly changed a bit from five years ago, you could build an entire business successfully off of ads alone. But I do think that things have changed a lot more where people are more savvy, and they're looking for ads from people, they might click on them. But then once they get to your website, or wherever they're learning more, they need to see a lot more from you. Right? They want to see results, testimonials and organic social media presence somewhere. There's a number of things that people are looking for now, compared to five years ago, I think that people were a lot more. I don't want to say gullible but but used to be able to build an entire business just by running ads. And like that was it. And I think that now people are really looking for more pieces before they make their final decision.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 38:27

Yeah, more educated consumer, do you think tic TOCs the future?

Caley Dimmock: 38:31

I think that tick tock is a great opportunity right now. Absolutely. I think that for Gen Z, I think it's a pretty necessary place to be if you are targeting Gen Z, I've seen some really good success with some of my ads clients, primarily going into, like expanding to a new audience is is been pretty helpful as well there. So I do think that tick tock has a lot of upside on it. I think it can be exhausting for people. If you're already focused elsewhere in your marketing to add on tick tock because it is video based and video based marketing, I think overwhelms people very quickly. And it makes sense, right? It takes a lot more mentally and in terms of time to do that. I also think a really huge opportunity that a lot of people are overlooking constantly is LinkedIn. I know that you you post over there on LinkedIn. And I read a stat the other day by Neil Patel. He is a major, major, major marketing expert, talking about the percentage of people who are on LinkedIn versus the percentage that are posting content. The percentage of people posting content over there was tiny, so there's a lot more opportunity for organic reach. Whereas on Instagram for example, I think he said 87% of people who are on Instagram are also posting content so your chances of organic reach are are a lot less.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 39:52

It's interesting. I LinkedIn remains a mysterious, badly behaved black box to me how often I mean, if you post it, it's a bit of ironically, because there's a lot of policing of LinkedIn around this isn't. This is not content for LinkedIn, people have very strong views about what to be on Facebook versus LinkedIn. And yet this, the posts seem to do well, are those that have selfies attached? Yes, I agree. I'm gonna do post because I just feel it's kind of more where my my people are. But it means I can't say I really understand how the algorithm rewards content, I took a month off in August, and I got absolutely penalized by the algorithm for not being around. So that's quite clear. Yeah, I'm

Unknown: 40:34

sure it'll come back. I think when you take those breaks, it's about putting out a ton of content. And if you have one that then takes off, I think you're kind of back back in it. But I noticed the same thing. I was really heavy on LinkedIn from 2016 to 2018. I had articles that were getting like 10,000 views in like a couple of days or and then life happens. And I wasn't really on there much. And now I go over there and maybe a few 100 people see my post or whatever. But I think that if it's something you're willing to put time into, I think that there is a lot of upside on there depending on the type of content

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 41:09

because like we could do a whole nother show is to now you've gone freelance. It's just it's wonderful story here, Kelly about thriving than the journey that you've been on. And I know you've got a you've got a resource that I think we should give a little shout out to around going freelance. Do you want to talk to this bit more about that? Or I'll make sure I'll put the link in the show notes. Sure. Yeah.

Caley Dimmock: 41:35

It's just a pretty short, easily digestible guide on the first seven things that you should do to start freelancing, and it's in sequential order. And it's just little tidbits to get you to start thinking about these pieces and what they would mean for you. So yeah, just a free PDF guide

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 41:53

that people can find you in various places. I follow you on Instagram, I feel like you're one of the few content creators there that has this real balanced way of sharing her life and sharing meaningful sound bites is that as a business owner that I can digest. So I'm going to recommend people follow you on Instagram. And of course, you are on LinkedIn, as well with your own YouTube channel. She's everywhere. Man. I have

Caley Dimmock: 42:14

YouTube, but I haven't posted there. And I think a few years I don't really I don't know, I think trying to be everywhere is just so so tough. So my main focus is Instagram, because that's where I've built up the mobs. But when I have time or a little inspiration, and sometimes a LinkedIn post goes up, or sometimes a little YouTube clip goes up. But yeah,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 42:36

you Instagram. It's been a delight. I've made lots of notes here about practicing thing, this zooming out relationship with failure. I think there's loads for people to take away. So appreciating your time to here's to people going freelance and emailing us after the show. Half cool, that'd be

Caley Dimmock: 42:52

that'd be pretty cool.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 42:55

Thanks, Carrie. Yeah,

Caley Dimmock: 42:56

thanks for having me.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 43:00

I'm pretty sure that answered a lot of questions that you have. If you are considering going freelance or supporting someone who is considering that I never thought I would build my own business. I always thought I was corporate through and through. But like Katie said, for most of us, it's not our original plan, and it works out. And what's to have your attention here, season two will land on the fourth of September. And so to celebrate that, he says I'm going to do a big giveaway at the end of August. The first prize is going to be a free coaching session with me. The second prize is going to be noise cancelling headphones. And the third prize will be the three of my top favorite business books. So a super cool, I'm really excited about that. I'll lay out how to play along and how you can maximize your chances to win and hence it's going to involve sharing and to hear that podcast for two weeks in the time that the giveaway is open. If you want to make sure that you hear about this, then sign up to the newsletter. I'll definitely be sending my deeds to the newsletter or follow me on socials, Instagram or LinkedIn because I will be talking about it there. Until next week. This is your wingman signing off