Navigating Hard Conversations with Ghilaine Chan

Ghilaine Chan: 0:00

Most people have these stereotypes or expectations of most people are like this. Not all people are like this. And we always assume that we always, we often assume that people are the same or that is we're like everybody else. Actually, you're not. It's not treat people as I wish to be treated. It's treat them as they wish to be treated. And the only way to do that is ask them. And if you want to have a difficult conversation, you've codified you know, we talked about the rulebook, what you've done is you've asked them to create their rulebook so that you can go and say, right, I've got some bad feedback. I'm going to give it to you.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 0:40

Welcome to unset. At work, I am your host, Katherine stay Macy, I want you to think about last time you found yourself having a tough conversation, perhaps he needed to deliver some hard truths about someone's performance. And he had to advocate for a pay rise for yourself, or tell the client that their behavior was bang out of order. So thinking about their conversation, how confident did you feel to have that conversation? And how much time did you lose? Worrying about having that conversation? What outcome? Did you even get in all of that? Maybe you even avoided the conversation. So whatever your journey in life has been to this point, there are versions of hard conversations, types of hard conversations that are just gonna stop you in your tracks. You know, what stops you in your tracks is going to be different to me, it doesn't matter. But the reason why today's episode is one that really resonates with me why quarterback is also the reason why I called my business conversations at the edge in this podcast and said at work, because I think hard conversations are what derails us and we're going to make changes in the world if we can get better have those hard conversations. And if you're like me, you've never been taught how to have any of this. I mean, I spent two decades in tech and management consulting and I learned everything. I learn so much about coding and client relationships, but Not once. Not once was I taught how to navigate tough conversations. And I had very few leaders around me who modeled how I wouldn't have hard conversations with surprise encouraged in fact, my experience with often a difficult conversations ended up with mobile phones being thrown around and, and relationships being damaged like everything, right? So when I started my coach training about 10 years ago, I ended up stumbling into a skill set that I didn't even know I wanted to I needed in my life. And those are the skills of of listening and powerful questions and really understanding my own inner emotional world, this, this was all laying groundwork for my growing curiosity that maybe I could have hot conversations, maybe there was something to learn here. But the real transformative moment came in my introduction doesn't record nonviolent communication during team coach training, because we were taught how to help teams have the hard conversations, kind of ironic, that I was learning how to do that having never done it myself. But that approach, particularly coin method, and nonviolent communication, reshaped my personal interactions, entirely it me confidence, and it's really influenced how I've run my own business, my professional coaching and the facilitation. And since then, because of those skills, that combination of skills through team coaching, and the personal coaching train that I've been on. I've had some profound conversations that I wouldn't have thought 1015 years ago, I would have been able to stay in the room for I facilitated conversation around social injustice with one person accusing the other of being racist and getting them to stay in the conversation for that. In another case, colleague and I facilitated a day long conversation about homelessness with those who had previously been homeless and the council. It was all about issues of deprivation and underfunding. And yeah, it was a very hard conversation, but they've, they've changed my life. And so because evolution of mine has been slow and steady, but it really starts to form a cornerstone of my mission to help us get better and having the conversations that we need to have because through that, we get the opportunity to grow and understand and to be understood this idea of getting better at hard conversations and not just accepting that Nope, I can't do the more I'm conflict avoidant. For that reason, I decided to bring back this episode, which was published over a year ago, because it lines up with the launch of my brand new masterclass and on the art of conversations, that we're revisiting this conversation with my friend and colleague called Shalane Chan, who's a co chief operating officer who's really mastered the art of expectation setting which we'll hear from the story she shares with us, and how to get through the difficult conversations throughout a very impressive career. This is not just a conversation this episode. I think it's a masterclass in itself. So loads of have insight here to be had to help you get the confidence to try and experiment with having difficult conversations. So if this conversation sparks something in you and you want to and you want to learn more, I want to invite you to the upcoming master class, the link is in the show notes where you can register, it's gonna be an hour long class, I'm gonna share with you the blueprint that I created, from my own work already borrowing other people's work with, but turning it into something that's very practical and regular human centered. And that's how I help my clients have conversations. I'd love to have you join the red link to register in the show notes. But without further ado, let's dive into this episode. And Shane Chan, whether it's your first time listening, or you're revisiting, I promise you there'll be something in here, everyone, let's begin. The show, welcome to unset at work, lovely to have you here.

Ghilaine Chan: 5:53

Thank you for having me. So excited.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 5:57

We're gonna have a fun, easy conversation about hard conversations. I feel you one of the people in my life has become who is really good at hard conversations, which is one of the reasons why you're here on the show. Tell us a bit about your your kind of career journey, how you've learned to become good at hard conversations.

Ghilaine Chan: 6:18

So I suppose I've never really been shied away from difficult conversations anyway, even when I was a child, looking back and thinking what shapes you. And I suppose as a teenager, I was a merchant of evidence. So I've talked to be dealing with people who are injured and have bad things are happening to them, and you can't sit there get everything will be okay, because you couldn't quite tell. But that's not the case, giving bad news to people. While it's not kind of really awful news, you are being realistic, and trying to give them the truth as much as possible. So from a young age, I was sort of prepared in that way to say, Well, you can't lie, it's not going to be great. So soften it as much as you can. So I think that has shaped me a little bit. And I with a lot of journeys, you get good at a job. And they put you into a pupil management position. So I went from being a support person to then being the team lead, and then to going to being a people manager, and you have to, again, you're training people and you're taking their craps. And sometimes I've never been good as a shoulder to cry on, I have minimal sympathy for people who don't want to solve the problem. I then ended up becoming quite constructive with what I'm saying do this do that, think about it this way put themselves because I had to do that you kind of get into the habit of having conversations that perhaps most people would kind of think, oh, I don't want to say bad things, or I don't want to say things that are possibly true. But I don't want to hurt people's feelings. And then again, a bit of a sort of shame, because I've never really been one that sort of says I need to be liked by people that does give a bit of I think that's probably one of the elements is you're not looking to necessarily smooth away, you're looking for their feelings, but you're looking to move away in changing a bit of behavior or telling something that no one else is going to tell them. I've also taken someone through performance management or a performance improvement plan, which was probably one of the most painful things I've ever done, which most people can probably attest to if they've never done it. But at the end of the process, essentially that the person was in the wrong job. And at the end of the process, she actually said to me, I now know, I'm in the wrong job. And I really appreciate you taking me through this process and telling me good, but also I'm bad. And making me realize that and that for me was huge. Because I Secondly, someone is never great. But you have to be in your own integrity for that. If it's a fair conversation. It's like you're not performing and I'm paying you to do a job. You're basically taking away someone's ability to earn money, you have to make sure you do it properly. And you do it fairly. And so that for me was important that to have that come back from her who's gone through this. I mean, it's never pleasant. That was quite massive. And that made me realize, however, that was 18 months of my life that I had sat in my own integrity and my own fairness and I've done it properly and i dotted the I's and cross the T's. And then in my career now, where I'm dealing with leaders and CEOs and trying to get them to change behavior. One of the distinct ones I've had as a consultant is I've gone in to a CEO who self confessed prickly difficult. He says I just rub people up the wrong way. So he's self aware and still contentious behavior but yourself aware of that. And he said to me, I need you to help me. And so I did. And I got surprised. I actually don't want to work for you. You're not a nice person.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 10:05

Did you say that to him?

Ghilaine Chan: 10:07

Not quite. But I kept just thinking, she texts me tomorrow don't actually care. And so I would just go, right, you need to do this, you need to change this. This is your problem. This is their problem. There was quite a few times where I went and going, I've done my job now. I need to leave. And he'd be like, no, no, I need you. I need you. And it was just kind of constantly I was telling him what he didn't want to hear. But he was keeping me on. And it was, we all have these, I call it a wank attacks. But we all have these jobs where we're not that happy, but we kind of recharge, we just go I don't want this job. So I'm going to charge a bit more for it. And they're not going to take up because it's too expensive. He didn't do that. So as earning a decent amount. And I've telling it as I'm not Yes, man. Every week, I was telling him what he shouldn't be doing. And he kept me on. And there's even in that sense, I think a lot of people, they do want to change. And as so many people are like yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Do it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, don't do it my way, do it your way, and I'm being paid for jobs, I have to tell them what they want to hear not what they should. And again, from your role, you know that your whole job is probably telling them stuff they don't want to hear. And actually, people are refreshed by it. And they come away. They may not like you. They may not like how you told them. But they come away. And they've got a choice to make to say actually, I can change this to I can do something about it. And even this week, I was talking to like a commercial director. And he went on just getting everyone telling me all these different things, Shlaim when you tell me I know, I can trust it. And it's the truth. And I thought, coming into this conversation, that's the fundamental is, what you're trying to do is have people trust you. And you're telling the truth. And now its truth is subjective. But largely, people can rely. And I'll sort of sum that all up. One of my first hires as a people manager, I hired one of the most amazing women, and I tire in a heartbeat. She was brilliant. And as you were going on our journey of life, through this pupil management process that I was quite new to, and she just went, Yes, Elaine, you're a bit of a bit. But thing is, we all know where we stand. And that's more important. So you're not the huggy type. But we know where we stand, if we pissed you off, we know it. We've done good work, we know it. And that's all we need. And I just thought it was a touchy feely type, she was always a team builder and bringing people together. And I relied on her for that. But that for me was yeah, that's what people need in a people manager, they just need to know where they stand. And that's really underpins everything about difficult conversations.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 12:52

And there's so many nuggets in there, right? You've made the case for why bother to have the difficult conversation? So Well, I think we underestimate people's value. People value the trustworthiness in the truth. I read the same thing with clients going, you're the only one who tells me like it is. And it's me, let's call it right, it's easier for us as a consultant or an external person to go find another job than if you're internal. And that's your boss, or your colleagues. I mean, just just name that dynamic. You also touched earlier on about why Pete why we don't do it, there's this, I don't want to I don't want to upset someone I want to be nice, whether it's conscious or not. Those are all reasons that kind of I think we sabotage ourselves and don't have these these hard conversations. And then the gift, your example of the grievance procedure, and your colleague coming back to you and saying, Gosh, now I know like excruciatingly painful for everyone involved. But there there is a gift at the end of that of the truth, again, the truth.

Ghilaine Chan: 13:53

I think, also, if you imagine people jump from job to job, and they're not quite happy, and they go into the same job, I've done this job before, I'm qualified for this job. And they wonder why. Because actually, people have either passive aggressive kind of made them feel unwelcome because they're not doing a good job. And they could go into an entirely different industry or role. If some of this when actually you're not really customer service type. Perhaps you should try graphic design or something like that. But this is not a skill set for you. And that's fine. I have to be great at it. But understanding where your skills and strengths are not letting people just coast in this sort of terrible, not really doing a good job, but I don't care enough about you.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 14:33

Or I'm too scared to have the conversation or I'm too scared of what the HR rules around having her I don't know. Yeah, I've seen that time and time again, of people being abused by organization and willingness to just tell them like it is and they keep hoping they'll be promoted and they keep hoping this and nothing happens and their wheels spinning and they don't understand why and you're like, exactly your point. It's because no one's got the guts to tell you the truth. You're not a bad human being and you're just in the wrong place. We will say hard conversation, a different conversation. I think there's different kinds. And performance management review, I think is one performance or performance review, but not not an annual performance review we're doing what a poor performance review? Yeah, is one of them. I asked LinkedIn in December, we'll give it a little poll that you that you and I have seen, right. And we're gonna, LinkedIn is limited. So you're gonna get four choices on the poll, but I asked people that have these conversations, which the ones you would find the hardest to have serious misconduct, poor performance, negotiating with suppliers or terminating employment? There's a kind of big conversations. And it's pretty evenly spread across serious misconduct, poor performance and terminating employment. That

Ghilaine Chan: 15:45

doesn't surprise me. I think, as you serious misconduct, I'd say it's probably the easiest, because you've just done something really awful to expect me just go. Oh, sorry, we don't want to talk about it, that you've just stabbed me in the face. But I'm gonna let it go. Termination and poor performance is a bit more tricky, because it's quite

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 16:04

the size more subjective. Yeah. Yeah.

Ghilaine Chan: 16:08

In your contract, so that that surprises me. So I would say that's the easiest one, because everyone's expecting it this half. I did this. So we're going to walk March you out with security and HR involvement.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 16:21

Like there's rules, sexual misconduct, drugs on the property, misappropriation of funds, like, those are no brainers. Yeah, bye. And the lawyers often get enrolled at that point as well. So that there's almost is a rulebook that gets pulled out. And those times they were just follows the rules. But I think we're in the gray areas of poor performance or even step back from poor performance, just doing something weird in the meeting in front of a client, there intangibles,

Ghilaine Chan: 16:53

a bit. It's a bit sort of going down this sort of dei route, but it's a bit like that death of 1000 cuts is just a joke. But when you've heard that 60 times, it's not a joke. He was saying things. It's just not doing it right. But it's really difficult. Put your finger on it. And I think that's the thing is they're not quite they can be subjective. They can be not specific. How do you verbalize it? I think that's the thing, when you don't really know how to verbalize it. That's the challenge is you're kind of you are going into the unknown of how do I deal with this?

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 17:24

And the subjects the subjectivity? Because I know I've talked myself out going on, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive, because it is this gray area. Like I didn't like that joke. I think it's a bit misogynistic. But no one else said anything. Am I particularly being a woman in tech where you aren't the only woman in the room? Do I want to have that battle? Am I being oversensitive? Yeah, that makes it hard. So what would your definition of not for you personally, but if you did, broadly, that the definition of a difficult conversation,

Ghilaine Chan: 17:53

I think, is I think it goes to the conversation that you can't necessarily have in the moment. And I think, depending on what level of the scale you're on, I try and raise things like to a flippant comment, I will be the person that will get there. That's not funny, because I just, I just kind of like, Yes, I am. That person is always me. And I'm quite happy to vocalize that, I will definitely highlight things in the immediate because it's easier. So I would say, depending on what scale you are, those conversations could become difficult for you because you don't have the language or you can't prepare for it. And you're not really quite sure what to say. So I think it's really a case of it's a conversation that you can't immediately have with the language that you have, or the process of how you interact with people. So you kind of have to go, oh, how am I going to deal with that? And so I think that for me is the definition is it requires a bit of a step back and go, Okay, that's going to be hard. And as soon as you have that, then put a massive amount of pressure and fear on you. And that that then makes it bigger than it is. I always sort of talk to people and say, Okay, if you're going to have difficult conversation roleplay at first look at worst case scenarios catastrophize as much as you can, but have an answer for every single thing. And make sure that you've prepared that difficult conversation, and you've defined what you're talking about. So those intangibles, were in a meeting, and you swore that's quite easy. Please don't do that in front of clients. You're in a meeting, and you pick your nose. Now that's your choice, but can you not do it on company time? You know what I mean? You've got these kind of scares of professionalism that you can hang a hook on. It's fine that you do that. But I don't want that in front of clients. And I don't want that in the office. So please go to the toilet and do so I think you have to sort of like you say split the behavior from the person. It's not you did this or you?

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 19:52

Yeah, yeah.

Ghilaine Chan: 19:53

It's always

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 19:54

so unprofessional and meetings. You're like, what on earth does that mean? What's the definition of professional always, always Is is a terrible word that it's very easy to get very defensive about always, always in there first. So there's a specificity is what I'm agreeing with the one, we're going to use this example for the rest of conversation, when you pick your nose in the meeting, charming example. You've talked about which meeting and the action, the behavior that you're doing, and then the request, what am I asking of you? To do differently?

Ghilaine Chan: 20:23

I think that's specificity. Great. When I'm working with people, I'm not allowed to do that. So I work with a lot of founders. I'm not allowed to do that. Where is the rule that you're not allowed to do that? Where is this rubric use? Because you what this thing's like, I'm setting up a business, a lot of lifestyle businesses, I can't do it that way. Why not? So you want to work set your business up in your way? Why not? As long as you pay your taxes, and you stay within the law? You're good. But there's that whole sort of this. I thought its role model behaviors, like the cultural norms been previously. So what are they now this is the rulebook that people and it keeps people in their boxes, because it's not defined. But that's professionalism is one of those things. And so sometimes I turn up to meetings in my dressing gown, because I don't like to put the heating on every so often. And I'll probably I'm not client facing generally apart from my own direct clients. But sometimes, I want to keep warm, and it's my team, and they're fine with that. But if someone says, Some professors Life's too short, but swearing in a meeting, which I do, a lot of that is, if someone says, Could you stop swearing, please, I'll try. And both could be unprofessional. But what I'm, what I wear is largely, it's not like I'm naked, or anything like that. So I think there's also different definitions of your own definition of professional. So you do have to frame it of your my time. And in my company, we do it this way, or the etiquette of the company or the Code of Conduct of accompanies this. So I'm not making a personal judgment on what you're wearing for this conversation. But we have certain sort of set of criteria that you need to meet. And that is not it, which kind of goes to potentially, maybe you should have some of this code of conduct documented so that you can have these difficult conversations because as soon as you haven't got anything to pin it on, those intangibles are a bit hazy, like wearing dressing gown in a meeting, you then have a bit more of a judgment call or a bit more of your Subjective Truth versus someone else's. I

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 22:32

remember when I'd worked at KPMG, in the 90s, there was a book of how you dressed. My memory was pretty much aimed at women, there were more roles for women than men, if I remember, including length of skirt, wearing stockings, pose, whatever you call it, agreement, we call it a heels, no flats, length of hair. Yeah,

Ghilaine Chan: 22:54

we went a lot longer. And they are you I mean, I don't wear heels I can't wear

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 23:01

two years on lockdown wearing slippers i did where he, where he only was the code of conduct is a bit less patriarchal and controlling nowadays most codes of conduct. But daddy of professionalism can go into something else say there's a client of mine talking about some of his staff being unprofessional, and then getting really frustrated with them. And when we packed that it was like they hadn't prepared for the meeting. They're their models that you could put he could poke holes through in the first 30 seconds because they hadn't done their work. You know, that's, that's helpful. telling them they're not professional is not helpful, telling them that they are unprepared. And what He expects of them is what is the kind of feedback that they needed to hear. Yes. So I think these words of not right, not professional, not what we do in this organization are just incredibly unhelpful ways of giving feedback, and actually getting incredibly critical, because then you're saying it sounds like you're unprofessional? Yeah, it's a

Ghilaine Chan: 23:58

bit more of a judgment call. I think, as opposed to this happened, this went wrong. This is what you do about it, which is a bit more problem solving, coming into that, as well as this concept that people come fully formed ready for work. And I think COVID certainly has changed that and certainly looking at if you want people to follow rules, and when a bell rings, move to another room and do a different piece of work. The school system is brilliant for that. But if you want people to know, what is professional dress, I mean, what I've seen people walk into the office with a proof tube or now again, going to the code of conduct in the rules we were taught when we were young of what a professional woman looks like it's but equally different time those women turn up prepared good at their job. They should be judged on that not on what they're wearing. And these kind of rules that again, etiquette they've not been documented. No one really knows what they are and if you're in the right club you do I want to my boss who said Shane, you may not want to play the game, but you need to know the rules. And he said that very specifically about the politics of the office goes, you may want to step out of it, but know what rules you are stepping out from. And that was really useful advice. Because in the political corporate world, you're gonna get shafted. And that's the thing. It's really difficult to know what professional looks like, because no one's told these kids. And then no one tells them if there's actually do it this way. Or watch me see how I do it. That mentoring magic? Yes, you may have come at school and gone this. But that's not what works here. Try this. Even a difficult conversations, you're not doing very well. We don't have kids, you're not walking properly, walk on your feet. And it'll be easier or you're not running very well, because you do. We tell kids all the way along, and then they get the word of work. You're expected to know. And I think that's the other problem is people avoid difficult conversations so much that they don't even have a what's not really a difficult conversation. If you know that piece of work you submitted, it's not in the right format, and look at it, or the funds have gone funny. We can't present that to a customer. What do you think we can do about it? That's quite a simple one. But people be like, Oh, I have to redo the work.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 26:12

I'm laughing. I have clients who will redo the work rather than to say, can you just sort out the fonts? Like they're completely completely? If I think of my corporate journey in 20 years, I was in corporate, no one ever taught me how to have a tough conversation. There was no like, let's break it down. Here's the approach. He has a method he has a tool. Here the considerations when you give feet like none of that. I learned that in my coaching journey, in particularly not in team coaching. Because I was in teaching teams how to give each other feedback. I'm like, This is ironic, like I was taught this either, but it's transformative. And so you're right, we expect we put it becoming fully formed and through osmosis. And it's not like we're even modeling it. Well, we might be modeling professionalism. We might show up prepared and have done a fun sort of work and whatever. But if I think of the conversations and arguments, I've seen other people have more difficult conversations I've seen other people have in the organization excruciatingly painful, often with negative consequences. So why on earth would I have put my hand up? Or thought that it was a skill that I could just look like everyone was crap at it. And so this is one of the things you had to sack up and try and avoid this avoid having the hard conversations because they inevitably go wrong. Everyone gets hurt people cry. Yeah, there's not just this not do that. It's tiptoe around the handbags.

Ghilaine Chan: 27:36

Yeah, then you get that was on the soccer field. And yeah, that's what happens. But all you get a fistfight, I suppose is the other side is like the aggression that comes out. I've

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 27:45

seen, yeah, I've lived through avoidance and cold shoulders and harass and meeting this person anymore.

Ghilaine Chan: 27:54

leaning

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 27:55

back and sort of you couldn't digest or you got something to say, I can't work out what's going on with you. Or, or shouting. I've seen people shouting at each other. Just I mean,

Ghilaine Chan: 28:08

tell you what, toddlers don't have half the effort of attention and why it points to a feed some fantastic tantrums in. And I think that's possibly another thing is being cowed by anger, someone gets angry. I'm like, whereas a lot of people anger works for them, and it kills them. And so I think that's the other thing is, if you get angry, it doesn't just tell me what emotion does trigger me. But anger is not one of them. But

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 28:37

I think you're a master not taking things personally. If someone's angry, you don't see oh, they're angry at me. I'm a shitty human. It's not where your mind goes where it does for some of us, because it it, it brings up sort of a childhood trauma of letting people down of, of not potentially not belonging, of being thrown out of some group that I thought I belong to that I was safe in raised voices and that sort of stuff. You've got a phrase around kindness isn't niceness, which I think is just brilliant and to unpack that for us. Kindness isn't niceness, I'll give an example.

Ghilaine Chan: 29:10

A woman walks out the toilet, her skirt is in her knickers nice is laying her carry on. Being kind is telling us something that's going to embarrass you too. But she's not going to be embarrassed for the rest of the day until she finds out that that's what's happened. That's kind of the definition of that if you're gonna have that embarrassment, and she's gonna feel awful, but not as awful as she's gonna feel at the end of the day. When she walks in. And someone in her family goes, Ah, your skirts and your knickers. And then no one told me and then the distress of no one told me it's not even I've just walked through the streets showing. No one told me that's the difference between nicest and kindness. I think I think it's

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 29:55

a great example. It's a great example to make the point and I think we over index on that. Nice to see we talked earlier about what's the one thing that gets in the way of us doing this is? They wouldn't be nice to tell them that. Yeah. Life

Ghilaine Chan: 30:08

isn't nice, though. You've been out there. This whole, like, Oh, I thought it'd be easy. When? When did you think about it sometimes look at my daughter and say, what point did you think perfection has been reached and that this would not go wrong on a regular basis. And it's just that thing as we sort of expect. And that goes into a lot of my other pieces of work. But we expect that everything is going to go well, and no project ever worked with hope as a strategy. It's never, it always will go wrong. And as long as you make sure that you've catered for the going wrong, if it will go less badly than if you go, Oh, no, everything will be fine, similar concept. I can't be horrible. I have to be nice.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 30:50

I love that hope as a strategy. I also seen hope as a strategy in replacing the hard conversation. They aren't performing well, but it will give them another quarter and you like what do you think's gonna change in the quarter? Certainly, if

Ghilaine Chan: 31:02

you told them what's wrong, no.

Unknown: 31:08

But again, there's a hope there's a hope as a strategy here, instead of the hard conversation, like I see it time and time again,

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 31:14

I've probably been dead for we did it myself. And in corporate when I was in the sort of roles. One of the things I hear is a method for feedback is this is the shit sandwich. I know.

Unknown: 31:28

I know you have views on so

Ghilaine Chan: 31:30

I have. I can't even quote you the book. But there are a few books that have actually said a shit sandwich doesn't work. So most people kind of go in. And what they'll do is they go, Oh, you look nice today, you completely screwed up this thing. But you're good at that. So if you kind of go the primacy in the immediacy effect in Psych psychology. Interestingly, you focus on the first thing you heard, and the most recent thing you heard, so you missed. So even just that psychological theory completely negates the shit sandwich. And it goes to niceness as well, as I'm going to say some good things. People focus on the good things is an interesting thing in your own head, you focus on all your crap. But when someone else is telling you things, you tend to focus on the good things. Because that's probably more constructive coming from someone else, your inner voice is probably the one that's breaking your whole world. But that essentially means that the thing that you need to say, has just been met. And all the thing they need to hear has been missed. And it makes people feel better, but doesn't get you the design. I told them. Yeah, but you fluffed around the edges. And so they missed it. You need to be direct, so don't miss it. Which brings us a different problem, as we know, abrupt direct women get labeled in different ways. But generally try and be direct and clear.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 32:54

I don't know if people still watch it. So it does. This certainly did much of my career. And my experience of it was you could see it coming. It just got my defenses up. Because usually in that is still very unskilled feedback. And none of us take none of us grow. None of us learn none of us hear the things we need to hear when we're triggered. You just get defensive. So yeah, I just I wanted to

Unknown: 33:20

very the said sandwich.

Ghilaine Chan: 33:23

As well, I know that it's probably not a good idea, either. I just didn't get it as a form of feedback, you'd like to put a methodology around that we've given it a really crap name. Yeah,

Unknown: 33:35

there's no growth in there too. So I'm gonna get into it, you need to hear some shit.

Ghilaine Chan: 33:41

You have to be able to eat it. too. Anyway, I

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 33:48

thought that one interesting. No one's no one's name is attributed to that as a method, find the quiet one of things that you've said to me before that really then with me was about giving good feedback and public and bad feedback and private. I think that's a that's a, that's a real gem.

Ghilaine Chan: 34:04

That's an interesting one. And as I move forward, in my journey, I'm gathering more people that are like that. But when I came across that, again, early people management, and I went through and created of profound and I use it now in all my work asking everyone how best to communicate with them. It was a very early precursor to the user manual that I use now. But essentially went through my whole team. We were remote, we are across multiple locations, and different people had different challenges. But one of the things I said was, well how best to communicate. How do you learn? How do you want good and bad feedback? Because I was like, I'm early in my journey. I'm getting no people management support. I need to know how you how to do this. I'm asking the people that require this. And I worked for a big American company, so a lot of feedback was whooping that celebrate it. And one of my team really amazing what she did quite They would just crack on hugely reliable. And she said, Actually, I prefer my feedback in private, she didn't like to be the center of attention. She didn't like to be called out. But I like my bad feedback in public. And I actually sort of deconstructed that, because for me, that was kind of unusual. Certainly in a job where we don't get a lot of good feedback anyway, most people are just like, who are you? And why are you here, because you're in the admin internal ops role, no one cares unless something breaks. And she says, because I don't want a big song and dance. But when you give me bad feedback in public, it means that the takes, because you do it with humor, for example, to send that email, that didn't land very well. And so it was kind of because it was in public, it took the weight of it, so she got the feedback, but she didn't then have the whole pressure, because she put herself under quite a lot of pressure as well, to do a good job. She was one of those people that if things went wrong, it would really sideline her. And so that's me, ah, that's unusual. And I raise it quite a lot in my whole user manual process. Because most people have these stereotypes or expectations of most people are like this. Not all people are like this. And we always assume that we always, we often assume that people are the same, or that is we're like everybody else. Actually, you're not. It's not treat people as I wish to be treated. It's treat them as they wish to be treated. And the only way to do that is ask them. And if you want to have a difficult conversation, you've codify you know, we talked about the rulebook, what you've done is you've asked them to create their rulebook so that you can go and say, like, I've got some bad feedback, I'm going to give it to you. And so I've got a team that's like that in writing, and then we talk about it, you want it, this is going to be tricky. Here's the feedback, let's talk about it in our next one to one, and that ramp up to that next one to one might be really quite painful for you. But it's also painful for them, they've had the warning. And I think going back to that defensive feeling. If someone's had the warning that they're going to have a difficult conversation, they're going to receive some different information, they can prepare themselves. And that's fair, that's fair on them. If I'm gonna make you feel uncomfortable, can you prepare yourself and then you don't get the defensive? You have a, which is not my fault. Well, I didn't do anything wrong. Is that okay? And you can position it, this is gonna be hard. But I've noticed this, this and this in meetings, and it's getting people's backs up. How do you want to deal with this? Do you want to take this feedback, I mean, that's the other thing is, if every right so I go, I don't value your opinion. So I'm not going to change the result. That's fine. When I say that a lot. There's very few people who come to me with constructive feedback that I listen to, and change as a result, and they are probably 567 people. So that's their right as well. But then they may well end up with those conversations a bit more regularly. If it's something to do with professionalism, or you're paying to do a job and they decide not to change, you're kind of like perhaps you've been having a different conversation.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 38:13

You've got a great point here about setting expectations. And the way I know you do it is is is creating this user manual, which you refer to but for those listening, you've not heard of user manual, aside from the one they had when they had Microsoft Office in 2001. Tell us more about what your your concept around that.

Ghilaine Chan: 38:32

So essentially, as human beings we work if I'm sitting in an office, or I live with someone, you learn by osmosis. And because humans are great like that, you learn habits and things and those kinds of things that you kind of learn from osmosis. So when you work quite closely with someone, you probably get to know them very well. It's all great. I've worked remotely now for where are we? 19 years, nearly 20. Actually, you don't sit next to someone every single day and watch when they have coffee and how they have coffee and whether they like using their phone and all of those things. I also suffer from having a name that most people can't pronounce. And I've had friends very for a very long time who have heard someone pronounce it and go, Oh, have I been pronouncing it right? I don't know. Didn't notice and they've got it in their head that they they're not pronouncing why now why they didn't turn around to me. Way back and I'm not sure I'm pronouncing your name right. Can you say how to pronounce it? Because pigs are really scared. I don't understand. This is a bug. How do you like your coffee? Okay, I'm gonna, but if they think if you forget you should really know how someone likes their coffee. I've made them coffee three times. Why? Why are you going to remember everyone's version of everything. It's kind of getting rid of all of those things that people don't feel comfortable to ask once I know someone which in the world of work can be an hour conversation and people just go assume you know Me, that assumption is a very key word is is assumption stereotypes. Because you look this way, I expect that because you are this person, I expect that. So that's kind of the first thing is like, this takes away all of that. Oh, I didn't really want to ask. The second point to it is, once I did this with my team, I mean, when did I do it? Probably 2008 2007. So it's the concept. And I don't know where I got the idea from. So it wasn't kind of an established thing. But I remember one of my team, I hate the whole Hi, how are you? How's your weekend? remote teams, lots of messengers Microsoft has built on Messenger. So we used it pretty early on, and she was a slow typist. So you'd see the dots, you'd be like, Hi. How are you? How's your weekend? And you're just like, Oh, my God. And I'd be like, Fine, what you want? And I'm a quick typist. It's like, what do you want? And then you're sitting there. You just kind of like, oh, my god to type it all in one message. Anyway, as part of this work, she was just like, I don't feel I know you because you don't ever ask me what I've done and how I am. Because I don't I'm like, question. Bugger off. And so I treat people question I grew up I don't I don't think they want to know about why to the weekend. It then turned into her going. Hi, Joanne, quick question to children. And Megan, Hi, how are you? How was your weekend? How's the kids? And sort of sickness two minutes? Then go back. Okay. Because I was pissed off every time she responded to me as Oh, and she was the same. You're not getting the best out of someone because doing it the wrong way. Flip that she was just like, oh, Shane's always really quick and excited. But she always asks about me now. And I can tell her and my relationship changed. She talked about herself. She opened up, she just thought she could trust me. And so it's this concept of we don't spend most of our life trying to go, I'm gonna do a crap job. I'm going to piss everyone off. And I want to ping people in a way that will just annoy them. So someone finds me out of the blue. Ah, they'll get if I actually pick up my phone, they'll be at what? Now, most of my friends now they'll ping me on WhatsApp gonna call you. Because they want to get the best from me. And the best way to do that is go here you go. See things are good. The things you don't get the best. There's not a rulebook, it's not you must, if you want me happy and jolly at the end, send me a text message. If you want me a bit in the middle of something, phone me out of the blue. Now everyone knows, it's all good. And the final point, which makes it the most useful, is I'm a project manager. So I work with virtual remote, come together teams go off again. And I never get this right. There's like they're forming, storming, norming performing or something along those lines. This shrinks the forming and storming. So there's a lot of when a team comes together this wrangling of how do we work? What do we do? No one speaks. So everyone gets what they don't want. We go right, get everyone's user manuals, so I get people to write them, even if it's the answer five questions, five or six questions. Right, this is the common theme. This is how we're going to communicate because largely either democracy rules, or we all have the same approach. And then if we are making compromises for someone, they're really clear, we're making compromise, because you're the only one who likes to pick up the phone randomly. So don't, but we'll make a compromise somewhere else. Because of however you approach it. And people are very good once they know why they're making a compromise. They're happy. But if they're just like, why are we doing this? It just makes my life difficult. They get stroppy about it. And it just puts a context of we do it this way, because four out of five people message this way. We do it this way, because we agreed as a team. But it's that kind of expectation setting about people and I do get, I can get a lot of friction from people going I don't understand. But as soon as they've done it, and then because that's why you do that, oh, that's the best way. They go. That was a really good thing. So I have to often deal with friction. Why do I have to write about myself? Once I've got one? Ah, this has to do with this person. And that

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 44:38

includes I assume things like how do you want feedback? If I'm looking grumpy? How do I want you to approach me or deal with me if I'm looking grumpy? Because I mean, those are the questions I use in when I would do it with teams. And I think that's a good grounding for if we are going to have conversations we have some ground rules that we've established and your preference to tell me the Bad stuff privately or in public, whatever that preference is stated. So that's, that's a great, I think it's an underutilized tool in teams, they use a manual, you've got a very comprehensive one I'm going to I'm going to share that in the in the show notes for people who like, what's the user manual, if you want to see a in depth one, we'll share that with folk. As we bring this conversation to an end, it's gonna land this tools and tips to ever having a hard conversation. I think the user manual and you're setting expectations, in some ways a great one, what are the tips you have for folk? If

Ghilaine Chan: 45:31

you can role model in your own head or role model with someone else? And do catastrophize? What is the worst case scenario, this person was off in a stroke? And I think there is there's elements there, I'm stepping back from people with mental health issues. I am not a therapist, I'm not a mental health professional. But if at all, you think that this person is exhibiting bad behavior or bad activities, because of anything like that, I would say get professional help. Because if you even in the kindest, nicest way, if you give people the wrong feedback at the wrong point, we don't know what that would trigger. I think if you're at all worried about that, that has to be dealt with very significantly. catastrophize. Think about the worst case scenario, think about how they might react, you may not know but think about all the other interactions you've had before and have preparation or answers for all of those things. What would I do if what would I do? Certainly in the early stages of when you're first getting used to it absolutely prepare, I can now sort of prepare my head quite a few notes. And I kind of largely have, I feel comfortable. The other thing is asking questions. So rather than going in you did this is I often going going so that meeting, how did you feel it went? What went well about it, what didn't, and then understand whether they even think that what they've done is, is a problem. So I've had a situation recently where that was the case, I asked questions, and it wasn't highlighted as a problem. And you're, you're in that situation? And do they even know that this has been a massive failure or, or anything else. So thank you then get a bit of a context of how they feel about it. And often, if they know something's gone wrong, they're beating themselves up. If you've hired the right people, or you're working with the right people, they're like, I know I should have done it better. Bla bla bla destructive voices. So often you're pulling people back from it wasn't that bad? So actually, that gives you a positivity? So he's like, No, it wasn't that bad. But we do need to deal with it. But those questions, how would you do it again? How did you feel that tone of voice and again to that professionalism, you're not judging their own version of professionalism? You're just kind of putting a lens on. You thought this. But I perceived this, because you were direct, or you were fluffy. That's the often things you weren't actually saying what you mean to no one now? No, you need to be more clear. And so asking the questions, they then as coach it out with them, rather than tell them they've done wrong, get to the point where they fix their own problem, and who's just throwing in three questions. And all of a sudden out the back of it. They've decided what they did wrong. They've decided what they're going to do about it in the future. And they've decided to change their behavior. Because as we know, Change only comes if they decide that they want to change, you can tell them all you like, if they go, you don't know what you're talking about not going to change was asking them those questions and just throwing them in getting them to consider, then you can fix the problem they got actually I need help with that. Okay, let's work through it. So the last one is an outcome of right when this happens again, let's, before you go into that client meeting, let's talk it through, let's prepare for it. So that you don't do what you've just done? Or do we need further work on that, but sort of almost have a? What's the result of this conversation? What's your going to go and do? And what are we going to check in again, to make sure that you've changed or you've got all the tools you need? Because a lot of the time people do wrong things, because they don't have been given the tools or they've got too many barriers. And that's our job as managers to say, right, we need to remove all these barriers. And that's what you generally learn is it's not their fault. It's because they're doing something you didn't even know existed and you have to remove that barrier or give them a tool or give them some training.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 49:16

And you said something earlier, which I think is a great way to end which is assume they're doing their best. Like they didn't wake up this morning to piss you off and wind you up and annoy the client. Like they just no one no one does that. No. It goes to some of your earlier points as well. I think the the place you come from when you deliver the feedback if you come in angry, or agitated or fearful. That doesn't help the conversation. If you come in, you can roll your eyes at me because it is but we but if you come in with an open heart going, I'm going to assume you're doing your best with the information you have and the tools you've been given. But here how here's our landing, let's talk about whether we want to change that whether that's serving you in this process. There we go. We've just solved the world of it. Thank you today. Thank you for your time sharing your wisdom. Any final words?

Ghilaine Chan: 50:09

Well, I hope it's useful. Yeah, I always wonder about these things, because it's like I have the tools and everything. And I hope that it's useful and practical, because that's the hardest thing if you say, people don't have a lot of these things, so what can they go away and do just off the back of listening to this? But yeah, it just don't shy away. The more you do it, the better practice you have practice makes perfect. And you always feel better after it, what how you preempt and the fear that you have is generally not borne out, if done properly, going back to our angry conversations, but if done calmly, and with preparation, you will feel better, you'll at least have to wait. I've done it now. But actually, in the most part, I can't remember the last time I had a bad result, where I just went, Oh, my God, that went horribly wrong. And moreover, it generally does solve a problem or make something better. It may not be make them your best friend, but it will certainly something has been said. And it sort of clears Yeah.

Catherine Stagg-Macey: 51:11

Well, that was, in fact discussion on tips and tools to approach hard conversations. And I think more interestingly, some of the costs of not having the hard conversation. And if you're intrigued by the idea of you able to get better at having hard conversations, and I promise that you can I invite you to join the upcoming master class at the end of March. It's really designed to help you give you some practical tools and tips to have the confidence to have these kind of conversations. And the only way you're going to get better at it is having some tools and practicing. So come join us. And until next week, this is your wingwoman signing