Season 1 Finale: Reflecting on the journey so far with Aly King-Smith

Catherine Stagg-Macey  0:00  
I don't know if it's a next level or the next turn of the wheel. But it's continued learning in the break between season one and two. I'll rerun some of the episodes, the most popular episodes in August. And I've listened to those three episodes. That's probably now the third time I've listened to those episodes. And I'm still learning. Mike, that is so cool. Yeah, I'm still learning from something I created, clearly learning as a massive value of mine. To continue explore what are the edges are things that I want to know about? Who are the people that I can help me and the listeners learn about this thing? And in every conversation, I take away so much, even if I think I know a fair bit. Welcome to unset at work, I'm your host, Katherine Stegmaier, SC and executive team coach, interested in the conversations that we are not having at work. And this week, join me for a special behind the scenes look into the first season of this podcast. Yep, that's right. We have 37 episodes in the bag. And it's time to close out for the summer. And I've got a unique twist, as I have invited my friend and colleague, Eddie King Smith to take over the microphone, and interview me about my personal experience with this podcasting project. And putting myself out there, we delve into what inspired me to start the projects and the journey of experimenting and taking risks. And West, I expect your plans include a podcast anytime soon, my hope is that by sharing the journey, I've been on with this project that you feel inspired to step forward and pursue that dream or role project that you've been longing for it. And he asked me some great questions. And so we talked about why I embarked on the venture, how I go about finding guests for the show the significance of the title of the podcast unsaid at work, and what that means to me what that really means to me. And reflecting on whether I would continue creating episodes if no one was out there listening like you. My guest turned host is Annie King Smith. She's Managing Director of clear works coaching for leaders in the STEM sector. She's also a writer and podcaster, who around same time as me launched this wonderful podcast called and listening life, which supports coaches who are running out of steam commercially. She's a lifelong advocate for women's sport, and is in the process of launching what she calls her passion project podcast, which is called older and wilder. And that's going to be launched in autumn of 2023. And this podcast is all about sharing stories of women in their 50s and 60s and above, who are using the magic of sport and exercise to thrive. Her mission is to raise the profile of sporty old woman and remind the world that they're here. I feel like around the world and we're here and I'm in my 50s and that they're wonderful. Yay. She's crowdfunding the podcast in September by walking the 180 miles of a track called offers dike path, which runs from tipster which is the southern part of Wales, for those of the listeners who aren't in the EU in the UK, up to prayer, Stephen, which is the north part of Wales. So 180 Miles is what she's walking. And that's all about crowdfunding the podcast. That's certainly something it's a fabulous cause that I hope I'll be tracking her with interest. It's gonna listen to my conversation with Ali where she turns a spotlight on me which I have to admit, I did find a little unnerving, I think, being the, the host rather than the guest. But here we go. Let's go listen in. Ali, welcome to unset. At work.

Aly King-Smith  3:35  
Thank you

Catherine Stagg-Macey  3:35  
today the mic is with you. I'm the guest, and you're the host.

Aly King-Smith  3:42  
I'm in charge 

Catherine Stagg-Macey  3:43  
you are.

Thank you for taking on the role.

Aly King-Smith  3:45  
Well, it's an honor, absolute honor, I've been following your progress and enjoying your podcast and delighted to be on the other end of your mic today. Thank you. Would you like me to kick off with a question that what we're going to do is

Catherine Stagg-Macey  4:00  
freeform, free range organic and just say,

Aly King-Smith  4:04  
Well, I'm really excited to pick your brains and hear about your unsaid at work journey. I'm sure there are 1000 questions to ask you and I know what's going to happen. I'm gonna ask you one and then we're going to be off. We're not going to come back to my questions.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  4:16  
Really particularly doesn't ruin this is what happens. Yeah,

Aly King-Smith  4:20  
I know. Yeah. Good to reflect to death here. See if we can really kick the reflection on podcasting. I've got a question for you because I'm loving this moment where it feels to me like you're you've reached the end of season one, you're taking a breath, you're having a cheer survival. So first question is How you feeling you've you've done one a season.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  4:44  
It's actually really nice to have a season ending. I wasn't planning on doing that. And it was my podcast editor Mark who suggested it. And I think it gives it invitation to pause because I just keep going, you know, and if I wasn't doing this, I'd be you know, Who's on in September? Who's on an October winner? Who do I invite? Where do I find them? I'd be caught up in the doo doo doing so. I'm pleased that I'm pausing. And yeah, I look back and I'm like, wow, go go CSM. Yeah, we go.

Aly King-Smith  5:16  
Yeah, I love a pause I like a term, I think it goes back to school days when you clean the apple cores out of the bottom of your peak. Or maybe that's just a little bit too much information about my peak.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  5:28  
Maybe there was you

Aly King-Smith  5:30  
know, there's something isn't there about taking the oxygen and just looking back and seeing where you've got to because even this morning, I was listening to the intro to your podcast season and it feels like you're, you're growing already, just from from the first part. So I suppose let's just get back to you and the podcast and why this podcast. So a question came to me having visited the podcast show together. When somebody posed the recommendation, it said, think about are you excited enough about the idea of this podcast that you would commit to it for three solid years? Even if no one listened? I said that to you. And you said Hell yeah, definitely I would. So tell me about that attachment to this particular topic. Why this podcast?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  6:12  
Yeah, I think it's layered. But I think it's long form, which I love that you can spend half an hour an hour talking to someone about a topic that feels very reminiscent of coaching. Yeah, there's a depth there's a nuance, there's a connection, there's an intimacy that I just love. I was surprised how much I enjoyed the format. Yeah, it's sort of gonna be quite hard to generate the content but once you're in it, I'm off. And then the the lens which I think you were asking me as well as what you're like, why am said Yeah, I mean, the, the sort of hoti business head of me is like, there is so much stuff that I see in the coaching rooms that people are struggling with, because we aren't talking about it. Yeah. And that winds me up. Can we just put more of this out there. But I think there's also a deeper, more personal response, which was I grew up in a house where a lot of things were unspoken. He was part of my, my upbringing. And so I find it very hard to be around settings or groups of people or contexts where we aren't saying, there's the elephant of the room. And he's got a pink tuxedo on. Can we talk about that? Yeah, because as a kid, I didn't have the skills, right. And I could, I could sense it, I could feel it. I could walk in the room come home and kind of incense into the room and go, there's stuff going on in the family. And I would just, I would just shut off because I didn't have the tools to that. So I think there's a Here I am 50 years later doing this. And I think part of it's a healing journey. At some level as well. Yeah. So are

Aly King-Smith  7:43  
other people giving you the feedback that the things that you find hard to talk about at work are also the things that they find hard to talk about at work? Are they universal, these themes?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  7:52  
I think so. My business coach says to me if her reflection is that I have a high tolerance level for difficult conversations. So she said, if you're feeling uncomfortable, then you're probably in the right space of an unsaid at work topic. Several of the episodes I have felt deeply uncomfortable talking about racism or being sensitive to someone's lived experience. Uncertain, uncomfortable and unsure. I don't want to hurt people's feelings. But we want to talk about this thing. And I think that's a good mirror of what people are. You know what listeners say that they find comforting. It's like I'm having the conversation. They aren't. Yeah, you're doing ready to have or didn't know they had to have or didn't know, as a conversation. They need to have various categories.

Aly King-Smith  8:38  
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that before. But actually, in a sense you are you're obviously modeling having the difficult conversation, but you're you're kind of master classing. Here's me stepping right into that discomfort on the microphone, so you can listen to it and, and learning how to do it or how not to do it because you've had some amazing guests who've been able to guide you through those conversations, haven't you?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  8:59  
Oh, brilliant. So brilliant guests, and I've taken some risks intentionally. One of the most downloaded episodes is with Michelle Taqiyya. bendy talking about the emotional toll of a black woman at work. Yeah. And I talked about, uh, you know, my internalized racist response to something and deeply uncomfortable. And the point No, no, he wants to put the hands up and say that I'm racist, but did it to say to help people go like we all have this, like, if you're listening, you probably have us your own version of this. And I'm not sitting here preaching to anyone I don't I don't have my shit together. I am on the Lifetime I'm a learning journey. And my you know, that's the invitation on the podcast is like, Come Come with me and be curious about the things that you want to you don't know that you could learn know more about whatever. Yeah, because I'm in the same boat. Yeah. And

Aly King-Smith  9:51  
it feels to me as if you're going more, well, deeper or braver as you go along. So first of all, you are modeling having those difficult conversations and then But there was actually an episode. Here's how I burnt my laughter twice is a big step into personal disclosures. And it's a it's a brave thing. So how are you enjoying that? You're what does it feel like doing that?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  10:13  
It's funny people, lots of people have said there was so brave in that episode you talking about about burning my life done doesn't feel brave, because I think it feels like sharing the scars, not the wounds. Like I've done a lot of work. Yeah, making sense of those periods of my life. Yes. Understanding how I got there understanding what got me out of it, understanding the gifts of they got me out of it. So again, I think this is back to like my business coaches point of some of the things that you're willing to push people to their, to their edge to. I'm not indifferent to that being a vulnerable episode. Am I blind to that? But yeah, I was surprised by that, that exactly that that response of people going, Wow, it's very brave for you to put that out there. Maybe it's modeling as well as like, if we can't talk about this stuff. How do we help each other? Yeah, absolutely. How do we learn from each other's experience? How do we ask for help when we need help? If we don't know the other person has been through something similar?

Aly King-Smith  11:06  
Yes. It's interesting, because we've worked together in so many different capacities with different hats on and one of the most memorable and transformational for me was when you were working as my supervisor, and I was asking you questions about myself around when I've had something bad happen, or when I'm grieving? Or when I've got a teenager who's keeping me awake all night? How do I coach the next day? How do I keep going? And you invited me to think about what if you turned up feeling that you really feel and be the coach that would be that coach feeling like that. And it's a really different kind of school of thought from the coach shalt not declare anything about themselves and shall be ice cold in all circumstances. So it feels to me like perhaps you've come to that over a period of time as a coach, as a supervisor now as a podcast host that you you're doing it no matter what you're feeling like, or you're what's true at the time. Does that feel resonant?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  12:03  
Yeah, I think it's true. I think a lot of clients that I work with, I shared quite personal stuff with an intent. Yeah, I might tell them about my father's suicide, or my depression, or my bending my lifetime, but it's because it has my story serves something in that moment. You know, there's a leadership stake in that moment around that. And that has felt like a skill that I've had to learn, you know, my gift to you in the supervision session was given to me by my coach 10 years ago, when I was struggling with depression, and scared that I, if I had a black episode, how was I going to, and I was working on my own like, because I used to have black episodes and a corporate. And then you could just call in air quotes with flu or insert other recognizable accepted illness. But as you're running your own business, you would lose money. Sure. If you take three days off, and and I was terrified, I'm like, What am I do? And how do I you know, I can't show up. I have to cancel. And she was she said that to me. What if you showed up with your black dog sitting next to you? My calls? I go, Oh, I can do that. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, it's you're right. It's a journey of, can I just show up in my kind of messy, fucked up humaneness? And accept myself before I asked other people to accept me in that?

Aly King-Smith  13:23  
Yeah. So what's the step to then showing up as a podcast or on a bad day? Because I know you're producing podcasts weekly. Yeah, over a period of time. So there must be days when you feel less full of beans than others.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  13:35  
I haven't been good at batch recording in the way that you are. So often, the podcast, recording sessions in particular will fit into the day. And I look at the afternoon and I'm like, Oh, my God, I've got so and so. We're at four o'clock, and I'm like, I don't feel like I'm on my game is 3000 Things I'm managing in my head somewhere else. And but I've always done prep, I've always done a prep call, right? And so you know, I open it up and I look at those notes. And I gotta go this just a conversation with a human being he wants to show up and do their best. Because it's not easy being a guest either. And within five minutes, we're off and when in a yummy conversation and I completely forget my anxiety or my tiredness or whatever it was that was getting in the way beforehand, which is why I think I could be doing this in three years time. It's like I the Senate, this energizes me we talk as coaches about what fills your cup. What drains your cup? Yeah. When I hit record, the conversation energizes me sometimes it's some of the 1000s of things that have to happen outside of the recording. get boring. Then you find it and you find an AI tool to do it for you in the like you have your back.

Aly King-Smith  14:47  
Yeah, so brings your energy like coaching might do I guess there's conversations.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  14:51  
Yes, very much so.

Aly King-Smith  14:54  
So tell me about why now. Suddenly, there was this energy I want to create these stories, these conversations, I want to share them I want people to be able to learn from the what brought a ton

Catherine Stagg-Macey  15:05  
messy life. So I April, May last year I tried to launch a group coaching program that failed miserably with a lot of work that I'd put in. And I'd follow the formulas and and didn't people didn't sign up. And I think I'd burned out as to bigger word I had completely deplete depleted myself in the build up and the design and the marketing and the learning copywriting and that felt completely drained. And in talking to my business coach who appears a lot of my life, shout out to Kenny, she said to me, you know, first of all, to see this as a wintering period. And I just love that idea of, yeah, I'm not, I can't create more in the space, it's okay. I need to rest and recover from something I put a lot of energy. And even if it didn't come to fruition, you still acknowledge the effort went into that. And she pointed out to me, she said every time you talk about podcasting, I had talked about podcasting before that but certainly you're not in on one project at a time. Until you do talk about podcasting. You light up, what would it be like to think about podcasting now? Yes, that plugged me back into life. Bizarre, right? If she was spot on, I'm like, yeah, and then I made it really complicated. I'm like, I need a strategy. And then I need a plan. And I'm like, how's it gonna work? And what would it be called? And she's like, stop it. Catherine sort of habit of mine. Like, this is where my consulting skills get in the way overcomplicate something, she's like, just just put it just put it out there. Make it super simple. And I guess what's the strategy like, well, how many how many listeners we have in a year? Why on earth? And how about you just have if your goal is to have fun with it until you don't have fun anymore. In fact, he actually told me to fuck strategy and put it on a post. Very, really, very, really sad. Because as a personal brand, like some of the stuffs like spaghetti, like you keep throwing it on an on a wall, and you don't know what's going on. Like, I throw in a bunch of spaghetti with a group coaching program at the wall that didn't work. And to bring it down to the creative pursuits was was just invigorating. And then I was like, Well, what would it be? And I wanted to orbit the theme be Well, what I talk about, and then she said, go away and think of 20 podcasts, episode ideas, and I came back with 60. And she says, I think you have something here. I'm like, Yeah, I think there are so much I want to talk about who knew? Yeah, that's where it started a passion project as a recovery process of a failed business initiative.

Aly King-Smith  17:47  
Yeah, but it's so inspiring and energizing that the thought that just if something seems to flow easily, ideas come easily, and you believe in it, just do it and then have the faith that it's going to be worth doing. I'm doing a similar thing with two podcasts now just kind of just believing that they're useful somehow if I'm enjoying it and you know, why not do that? Your seems to be really forming itself into our this is what it really is. It seems to be forming. Is that how it feels so did it always feel fully formed? Just feels to me more full of warmth than ever just get it? I know what you're doing? Is that how it feels? Yeah,

Catherine Stagg-Macey  18:31  
yeah, I think this is like will delight our listeners with our crazy to coach metaphors. I have this image of me and in like the Royal Opera House, wardrobe. Warehouse. Yeah. And the beginning of the podcast, you're going and go, Oh, this is a nice handle. There's a funky shoes or there's a cool cloak. At the end of series one, I'm, I have an outfit, and it feels cohesive. And I know the role that I'm playing. And I know, I know the show that I'm going to show up on it. But I had to sort of go through that. I allowed myself to go through that process of trying things on Yes, I got very caught up at one point in my podcast editor who's amazing shout out to Mark had said just simplify this like don't have interviews every week have interviews every other week, if that's where the heavy lifting is coming in, then just do short 510 minute tools, Saturday episodes, which was useful although at that I find talking to myself for 1015 minutes hard. Someone else

Aly King-Smith  19:35  
yeah, I was going to ask you about that. The difference in energy requirements difference in prep difference in sense of those two. So you've got some interviews the other person does the heavy lifting of the of the reflection some which is you. How did you come to that and how does it work for you tell us about that?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  19:52  
I think initially was like I know a whole bunch of really cool people who know cool stuff. Can I just invite them in to talk Look, it's a retrofitting, like, what would I ask that person? And what theme would I have that person on to talk because they just, they're just super cool. And they'll, people will enjoy listening to them. And at the same time, probably like you too, I spend a lot of time repeating myself with certain tools to in individual coaching sessions and thinking, hey, I'm happy to go through the, you know, on one on one, but it would be nice to go and listen to the episode on toxic communications, as you know, as homework or as some sort of resource. So that was the, the idea behind the the solo episodes have a bit of a resource. A bit of like, you know, here's half a dozen tools that you just should have in your, in your toolbox as as a leader, I have found the the individual ones harder, because we're interviews are natural flowy like you're there this there's questions as a framework, but we chat, like a, like I said to my guests, like imagine we're in a coffee shop, and we're talking about topic X, like let's just go for it. There's more prep behind that, but it's a very easy flowing conversation, I allow the conversation to get to go where it wants to go. Whereas if you have the mic for 10 minutes, you have to be cohesive with an internal key points that you want to land and annatto and so I script all of those. You do. Yeah. I don't know if it's my menopausal brain or what it's like I can't freeflow because I'll ramble I'm an RT mage. I'll repeat myself. I just I can't do it. That has felt a little heavier. I'm learning to ride them. Less pure scripted more like bullet points. My podcast editor, we share a passion for Kermit the Frog. To jest on the 30 episodes, I put COVID in front of me, I talked to Kim it as if he's the client and I'm like, Dude, you need to know this tool. Okay, let's go. And that's helped. That's helped a lot to kind of keep it light and not like I'm reading out from a script on this though, episodes because that's super boring.

Aly King-Smith  21:52  
Yeah. Do you know the coaching is dying to jump into all sorts of stuff. Because you might be making your free flowing arms and arms which I love listening to, but no, so let's just think about people who are listening to it for a minute. Just you who who do hopes there and how would you know that they're what they're telling you tell me some things about the people?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  22:16  
I don't know who's listening. This is the weird thing about podcasting. I mean, that's a joke and there's a seriousness of it like it can feel like you've put it out there and it's crickets and then somebody like a client or someone will stop me in an office somewhere go I heard you episode on x y Zed, which was like two months ago I was great. And this is what I liked about it. I'm like okay good someone's track the stats initially a completely obsessed with the stats that you can get about downloads that I mean down at the stats are interesting, because it's, you know, what's the most downloaded episode is top five with that that's that says something in itself. Yes. Somebody emailed in and said, She's since become a client. She said listening to you as the has been the most cathartic experience of my life. And I have to have you as my coach, like, Oh, my God. Like that makes all this awkwardness and uncertainty in worthwhile and just to have that one. Feedback. Yeah, so that's one extreme but I mean, on more generally, people come in and specific episodes, usually that the touch them. One client listens to me on the train home, or to intern from work, which doesn't do every day. But there's one day, she had a completely shut day. And there was an episode on the five coaching questions that you should use in your own life. And she said, Oh, my God, Catherine, you were like, completely in my head. I wasn't even expecting it. And she said, I worked those questions with the thing, the issue of the day, and she said I'd solved it by the end of the training. She just that was brilliant. So it's funny how people use Neser integrate, what's what you put out there like you, you can't control that. But I love it.

Aly King-Smith  23:58  
Yeah, here because one of the things I picked up at the podcast show was this real sense that purpose led podcasting is the way to go. So podcasts about stuff you really care about with passion in your heart. And the biggest hope is that somebody will tell their mate about it. So they'll they'll pass it on. And that seems to be absolutely the essence of have said that it's it's conversations between you and the person that you might think of as your mate. I'm not really making much sense here. But I feel as if it's an informal conversation that you're managing to create, even though the person not in the room with you.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  24:34  
I hope that's the case. There was someone I was talking to yesterday about coming on the podcast, and she identifies and discriminated minority and American as well that way. We only know that from LinkedIn. We've had a few extenders on LinkedIn, and I could see she was asking me questions to feel safe, which I completely understand. Until you know there's certain things that I want to talk about. Like Absolutely. So what I say to guests as I said we want the intersect In between, what do you get excited to talk about? What do you feel safe talking about? And then what fits in the podcast? So a little Venn diagram like right in the middle, that's the yummy conversation. Yeah. And let's craft some themes or questions around that, then you dig, so forget about it. I've got them here. Don't worry, I got ya. And then let's sit down, have a good old chat. And we know where we going and as if someone is listening in. So I want the listeners to Matt, you know, I think I've said this, have said this already. But if we were in a coffee shop, and they were listening in to me and the guest, having this chat, and it's casual, but it's meaningful, it has a thread because that's my job. But it's, it's a co learning conversation. It's not, neither guests or high are telling the listener what they're doing wrong, or Yeah, it's not as simple as that.

Aly King-Smith  25:51  
It does make sense. And it makes begging the question for me, do you find the guests and think what's the difficult conversation that this guest could help us explore? Or do you have an a difficult conversation and think, who might have wisdom on this? Which way? Which comes first,

Catherine Stagg-Macey  26:09  
but around as a go? I think in in series one. I know same thing, series and seasons, I should probably stick to one. It was about person first. And then the topic second in season two, because I have now worked through a lot of my network of people who would just say yes, immediately without even knowing what I was asking. I'm now on places like LinkedIn, following interesting content creators go oh, they have a really interesting perspective. Would they come on and talk about their their perspective? So for the next year series is a someone I've whose podcast I've been following Sophia Postel. She has something a podcast called The fact Joy podcast. And causes are fat. And she interviews only fat people around what it's like to be fat, bias, obesity, myths, all sorts of interesting things. I have my own fat journey. And I'm going what has worked and why I found her but I listening to a podcast, and I'm immediately going, Oh, would she fit on until? And if so we were I think she would fit? And I made that pitch to her. And she's like, No, which is really doing what anti fed bias at work. And she's like, Yeah, sure. Love it. And so she'll be on on season two. So because I'm casting the net wider now, probably more topic. It's what I see someone talking about. And then I'm thinking, would that fit? Or how does that fit on? Yeah.

Aly King-Smith  27:28  
So your relationship with the guests is going to be different, you're going to be more, where you're going to be further away from them before you start needing to you have to do something slightly different from tapping up your network. How does that feel?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  27:40  
There's a real wake up call to me yesterday with this person I was talking about, he was clearly a little concerned about what I might ask them,

Aly King-Smith  27:46  
not just what you might ask them, but how you might approach the conversation. Because there's, there's a given intention of friendship and connection and depth isn't there with people that you've known and you trust that they're not going to say something that's scared the life out of you on on air? Or?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  28:02  
Yeah, I think it's on me, right. That's the oh, we have a half an hour planning call, where we do this sort of Venn diagram conversation, and it's a bit of getting to know you, and, and several of them have said, we often get straight on to the podcast, and it's recording and you know, the hosts like, oh, we'll just have a conversation. And I can see how unsettling that must be, especially on difficult topics, like marginalized lived experience, and are people going to re traumatize you in how they in the questions that they ask you. Yeah. And I would like to say it was about the guest, I would I have to admit that the process was more by me. Sure. What's my duty of care to the guest to make sure I have my shit together. And I'm clear about an hour of their time and the recording of staff and our prep. Like, I'm very aware of time people give to this show? How do I maximize that? How do I make it an interesting conversation for them and useful for them? A lot of them are promoting a book or a podcast or the service. So I want them to be proud of being being on here as well.

Aly King-Smith  29:04  
So I've got a question for a friend. What would happen if you interviewed someone, and it was dreadful?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  29:12  
What would you do? Is this just a question for a

Aly King-Smith  29:15  
theoretical hypothetical? Frankly, it has never ever happened to me, but it's a fear I have. If you had a conversation and you thought, oh, that's just not congruent with what I believe to be true. Or you know, what the thing to do to think as a podcast host

Catherine Stagg-Macey  29:31  
I think my my hope is that the podcast planning call would would catch that. Yeah, there's someone on LinkedIn is pitching very hard to come on the show. I can't see the overlap at all what she's offering very American employment law related and I'm like, I just I just don't get it. But we're gonna have to have a call because she, she's persistent. I want to honor her persistence. And I think we'll come to agreement where there isn't a fit. But yeah, should I go should I go wrong? On the recording, I think we're very much in the space of hard conversations. Yeah, I wouldn't compromise the show, that's for sure. No, if I really felt it was, didn't belong. I think it's just one of those tough things. You'd have to call them up and tell them why. Yes. And stand in your integrity in those moments.

Aly King-Smith  30:19  
Yeah, there's some nice integrity. teasers coming up, I'm sure as a podcast host aren't that I listened to Adam Buxton a fair bit, he was like the, the Grandmaster original podcaster. And I've heard him a few times saying, either he recorded something that didn't feel right, or it didn't feel right at the time. And then he had a shock some months or years later, when he revisited it and said, Oh, no, it's great. Now, it just wasn't right, then. So that's a tricky one to know, isn't it? That's just a learning journey, I guess.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  30:48  
And sort of what's your responsibility? And what's your How do you contract with the guest? And all those sorts of things? Yeah. Oh,

Aly King-Smith  30:55  
it's making me think a lot. But my, but it can seem as coaching comes back to the pre contract, doesn't it? Of how you set it up at the beginning? What's the promise to each other?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  31:05  
Yes, completely.

Aly King-Smith  31:07  
So what's been the hardest part of your first season series?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  31:12  
I think it's all the behind the scenes stuff, you know, the electronic make a process. I am inherently lazy. So I like very streamlined processes, sort of background stuff that just has to happen. So you know, we put a stop here on our thing on our session, on each record, the intro and the outro. Separately, my choice. It needs shownotes. It needs promotion on Instagram, and LinkedIn or my newsletter. So what are the key points? What are the learning? What are the key takeaways? Why should someone listen to this, all those things need to be extracted out? Yeah, probably another hour or two hours on top of the recording and the planning, which I don't begrudge but I find it sometimes hard to focus on, I just wish some magic fairy godmother would come and just do it for me and I an AI does play a role in that, like, got my hands on chatty beauty very early on in using this doing some of that work. And since then, there's some really good tools that come out that will do it specifically in specific AI tools for podcasters. That just, you drop the audio file in and it just drops everything out. shownotes timestamps, suggested podcast titles, I mean, a lot of it needs massaging, but it's, it's like having a smart intent. It's okay, that's a great I can work with a very rough draft, it just takes the cognitive load out of all the thinking, because there's a lot of decisions, a lot of copywriting that comes off the back of this, which is not my wheelhouse.

Aly King-Smith  32:38  
Interesting. So if you if you had a magic wand and season two was 10 times better, or 10 times happier or just great. And you felt like you're really learning stretching and getting somewhere what's the next turn of the wheel for the podcast that will feel great.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  32:56  
My guess is I wanted to blow up. My egos pretty obsessed with download numbers as a measure of just who's listening. You're not who's listening. But that there that it has an impact. But it's hard not to get caught up in numbers of we can hear it on this call I go between it's a passion project, I will do this if no one listens to three years. And oh, what's the numbers, which is a bit of money. For me, it's the learning. I don't know if it's a next level or the next turn of the wheel. But it's continued learning in the break between season one and two. I'll rerun some of the episodes, the most popular episodes in August. And I've listened to those three episodes. And that's probably now the third time I've listened to those episodes. And I'm still learning. Mike, that is so cool. Yeah, I'm still learning from something I created, clearly learning as a massive value of mine to continue explore what are the edges or things that I want to know about? Who are the people that I can help me and the listeners learn about this thing? And in every conversation, I take away so much, even if I think I know a fair bit. I recorded a podcast on Friday with a breathwork coach, Debbie Clements, a well known in London breathwork. Coach and like I've been at breathwork sessions and like, we'll have a conversation about breath work. And so everyone else can catch up. And it's like, no, I learned all sorts. You talked about different a framework of functional breathwork and nasal breathing. And I'm like what I spent the whole weekend with my nose buried in a book he recommended taping my mouth at night to stop myself mouth breathing at night. And you're like, that's from one conversation on a podcast. How cool is that? Yeah, so I think more of that. Yeah. And who knows? It's not it isn't quite as exciting perhaps as the answer you were looking for. But I'd be satisfied with that.

Aly King-Smith  34:48  
Yeah, no, it's nice. It's the best sort of learning journey, isn't it with podcasting because it's just you're in the moment it's happening. You just have to do it and then see if it's getting better. You just have to learn as you go, but it's a very exposing place to learn as well as it's an I like that, that modeling of learning on the go. And as we're recording this, it's very timely Wimbledon has just happened Alcatraz at the age of 20 has just lifted the trophy. And I know you know, my love of sport and sporting analogies don't always work. But he's been so amazing to follow because he let himself risk it way too soon for himself last year, playing against jurkovich When he seized up, head to toe with cramps and couldn't, couldn't continue because he was so terrified, and then crack that in the public eye in order to come back and win. On Saturday. It was just what Sunday is it extraordinary to be just failing repeatedly on purpose in the public eye. And I know it's a big jump but that sort of podcasting learning journey in front of everyone you know, trying something out this works. This doesn't work. It's It's brave work to do for me. I don't know if you feel it's that that part of it is brave it how do you feel about experimenting in public on the record in a permanent way?

If you weren't worried you are now

Catherine Stagg-Macey  36:15  
I know where all the episodes are hosted? Like, take the whole thing done. And I want to do, how do I feel? Yeah. It doesn't feel brave. Yeah, it doesn't feel brave to me. No, I didn't. I didn't feel the public exposure. I feel like I'm in a process. With some describe people along the journey. I feel very supported as well. Maybe that's part of it. A podcast editor and business coach who get this and get what this means to me. friends like you who do podcasting as well and knew we can have a little podcasting conversations and swap tools and tips is very helpful. And I think it's one of those things where you do if you do something that's aligned with your values, that doesn't mean it's always easy, but it's it's nourishing and that way, right? Yeah, I don't feel brave. I don't feel not brave. It just it doesn't, it does. There's no edge for me here in that.

Aly King-Smith  37:08  
So. So if I take you back to when you first launched it, I remember you sending me a note to say, well, it's more tender than I expected to be putting it out there in the public. So tell me about that. Tender, what's that Governor,

Catherine Stagg-Macey  37:22  
some of my self worth is tied up with other people's validation of of me. It's part of my Lifetime's work. And so the launch of things is a real coming together of that tend to point for me of what everyone says it's shit. Because I can't back myself. And those moments of the launch of the podcasts or the launch, I did the same thing, I think the newsletter three years ago. And then I've got to do a lot of self coaching about this as my self worth is not dependent on the number of ratings I get. The number of downloads I get, there's a fair bit of work to go into that to remind myself that.

Aly King-Smith  38:11  
Yeah, that feels really familiar to me, because I, I really believe 100% That it's what I'm recording is useful to some people, because I've been told it is and I find the guests interesting. So I have to believe that they're worth it. And then every now and again at 3am, I could think oh my gosh, what if it's all awful. Everybody thinks it's terrible. I put it out there to be recorded. And but that doesn't seem to be what people are saying that it gets you and unexpected ways. I think that that surprise Oh, suddenly, if it does feel unexpectedly.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  38:44  
Yeah, I often think of the podcasting and maybe a lot of our work is it's a bit like a you host a watch or a watering hole into one of my favorite sort of images of you know, I'm going to sit by the watering hole and just be still on shell. And whoever's in the forest or on the plains of wherever we are, will come hang out if they want to come out. Yes. And we're going to get, you know, unicorns and dinosaurs and rhinoceroses, like all mixing at the same watering hole, but they'll come because it's a nice watering hole and they think I have something to offer and it feels like today I feel quite easy to connect. I can connect to that quite easily. But you're right and reminding me there are moments when I feel very far away from that perspective. Yeah,

Aly King-Smith  39:31  
yeah, we have to. I don't want to stretch that analogy too far. But they'll always be a vulture that comes to the washing house. Got a view? Okay, yeah, flaps its wings and buggers off. Yeah. So we can't do anything about that.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  39:45  
There was a first the first moment I've heard of that was actually this week. This week's podcast was about money mindset. I put it on Instagram. And somebody clearly got very triggered by it and left A very strongly worded comment about how they don't have enough money to pay the rent and that I was full of privilege, like all Brits and Aussies and Americans and unaware of your privilege and, and it was a bit like, whoa. And I think that's the thing about putting this stuff in the downside of you want more coverage and more people to see it and then but in doing that, I'm gonna go beyond you know clients who know me and like how I show up to people who have no idea who I am who don't know what I stand for don't on my values, and I gotta judge me. He hadn't listened to the podcast, there was a 32nd clip on Instagram. Yeah. And it was It wasn't about the posit. He was judging me in the comments. I know all about trolling, because I read enough about it. But it doesn't happen to me, because I don't have that visibility. So and here we are. So maybe a moment of celebrating that visibility to get trolled. Yeah.

Just it's just taken out of context. I mean, I do Yes, I do have to admit, I had to own that. So I thank them for pointing that out.

Aly King-Smith  41:17  
Yeah, and I guess the premise of the podcast is having difficult conversations potentially at work. And they can also go tricky, can't they? They can also be hard and get feedback. That's difficult. And so to see you deal with having it having that conversation, and then there being someone who doesn't necessarily agree with all of it, or might just have been a passing voter who knows? Yeah,

Catherine Stagg-Macey  41:41  
it could have been a private account, nothing about them. So yeah, we may never see them again. But it's an interesting signal.

Aly King-Smith  41:50  
Yeah. So what would be the best way to wrap up our conversation? If you will? Is there anything I haven't asked you about that? Your thinking asked me about this. That's interesting. Anything I've missed?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  42:05  
Well, I'm glad you didn't make me ask who my favorite guests were because they will be your favorite children, though. I think we've got it covered.

Aly King-Smith  42:16  
Well, I'll close in asking you how it feels to be a guest. I feel like

Catherine Stagg-Macey  42:22  
I feel like I'm trying harder than I do as a host to kind of be a good guest. Like, what's it like to be a good guest? Yes. immensely grateful that that this gets edited. Not not because there won't be stuff on the cutting room floor that was embarrassing or anything but just there's a freedom in, we can have a chat and and know that if something goes wrong, which it very rarely does, it can be edited out. Yeah. And just really appreciating my guests for the courage of this deer to come on the show and, and talk about hard things we do you know, and within the vulnerability that they have to step into for that. So incredibly, the show wouldn't exist without I mean, I wouldn't be that interesting. Banging on and say two episodes every week, it would just not be that interesting. So you know, the guests make the show and very grateful for them. Yeah. And you know, when you're in the host role, but you're also in a guest role, so you know who you are, and who didn't that?

Aly King-Smith  43:20  
Well. It's a tremendous privilege. I've loved traveling along together. So we seem to accidentally match patterns in each other's work, don't you? Don't we over the years we've we've had all sorts of things happening happy and sad at a congress time. So it's a joy to watch and said it works just develop into that it feels to me like a flower opening. You know, it's it was good, great right from the beginning. And it's getting better and better and deeper and seems to be sort of stepping into its self as this is what I stand for as a podcast, which I'm loving learning from.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  43:53  
Thank you. Yeah, thank you for recognizing that I use that metaphor of finding the right outfit for me in the Royal Opera House. costume department is very appropriate, I think. Yeah, it was like yeah, I think I mean, I might be different in the series too. But I think yeah, I think I get what this means to me and what it means to people who listen. Yes. And then that's helpful, helpful and nourishing,

Aly King-Smith  44:17  
nourishing. Yeah. So if someone has been listening to your podcasts a wee bit, but they haven't found you yet anywhere, where's the best place for people to track you down and and hear you more? See you more? Speak to you?

Catherine Stagg-Macey  44:29  
That depends on your preferred social platform. I'm on Instagram, and LinkedIn because I think people often are one or the other. Yeah. And my my newsletter list is a great way of something more consistent. Sure. There's all in the show notes, a little weekly newsletter sometimes it's sometimes it's about the podcast is often a story or some mostly with me being the batter of the story, or learning or like a tool or something like that. People say nice things about the newsletter. So yeah. It's a great question. Other ways of hanging Ouch. Getting to know me a little better. That's great.

Aly King-Smith  45:03  
What my challenging part has been managing the tech at this end, because I'm seeing you talk. It's a different time from when I'm hearing you. It's like being in a time warp. So I apologize if anything I'm doing is slowing down the process. But I'm learning from you all the time. And congratulations on completion of season one. Good luck season two, and I hope to meet you back on a podcast mine or yours soon.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  45:28  
Oh, yes. Amazing. Thank you so much, Ali, for allowing me to rest for a moment when the record button is going and just kind of dig in and just show up as me I appreciate that.

Aly King-Smith  45:41  
You always do you always do.

Catherine Stagg-Macey  45:44  
Until the end of series two, yes. I really had forgotten about how tender it felt, to put this body of work out into the world. Now that at least reminded me I do remember wondering, but what people would think about the episodes about my voice topics. You know, it was I the only one who wanted to have these kind of conversations. And I also remember the turning point, which I and I remember now having finished recording with Annie. And it was driving home from Heathrow Airport about an hour road trip for me. And I put on my podcast with a little trepidation. I had listened to some episodes before but not fully like that. And just got completely immersed listening to two episodes, back to back on the way home and listening in I realized it was good. And I was proud. I'm proud of this. And that was enough for me. And even if this podcast, any of them made it to one season, I was really happy that this was a body of work out there in the world. Even if no one is listening. I think these are the kind of conversations we should be having. So thanks to Ali for reminding me of the earlier time and again how far I've come on this journey. It's something I do fairly frequently I you know, reach a peak of a big mountain and then I'm looking again, even looking ahead at the at the next one and admiring the beautiful journey behind me and the view behind me that I've so really grateful for Ali's thoughtful and kind questions. And being a guest host today was might this podcast has my name. There are a lot of people who helped me on the way. Kelly Dimmick is my business coach they talk about who encouraged me to start the project. Marc Ronick Is the podcast editor who makes his podcast sound dead cool. And I know that because many of you tell me, the quality of the sound production does sound so great to you. Many of you seems to be surprised at the quality that's all on him. You also demystifies the process at every step, when you're new to it feel completely overwhelming and forecasting is really quite easy to do and the thanks to him. And finally, two friends of mine, two dear friends of mine, Ross and Tony who have listened to every episode all the way to the end. And always give me so much lovely nourishing feedback. Thank you to you both for being such great friends and I really feel your hands and my back. Thank you. And now we get to the place where I say the thing that I've always wanted to say because I can be a bit of a drama queen sometimes and this is that's a wrap for season one. This is your wing woman signing off.