The Busy Badge: Unpacking Society's View on Productivity and Worth with Nikki St Paul

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It's not that we expect people to be away from their desk for half an hour resting every hour. And that would not be feasible in an organization. But actually, if people were identifying I've been in this room of darkness.

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For two hours in a room with no windows, I realized that I need to get some natural light and get outside for five minutes.

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It's like people realizing what they need and giving themselves a little bit of what they need every single day. And that may seem very lofty and unachievable, but when you realize that just a few moments of rest can make a huge difference to how you show up and how you feel and what you're able to contribute. It's not about productivity, but it impacts people's efficiency and effectiveness.

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Hello, and welcome back to the podcast.

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I'm your host, Catherine Stagg Macy, and I am interested in the conversations that we are not having at work. And today we're going to what rest and explore what it is that we think rest is, the more juicy conversations like what is actually our relationship with rest. My first awakening to the idea that I might not have the most positive or helpful relationship with rest was when I was on holiday with a friend and we were in the bush watching some animals at a waterhole in this very relaxed, calm kind of setting. And I had a camera and had a book and had a journal, and I was fidgeting.

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And my friend said to me, do you ever just stop. And to be honest, I was a little offended in the moment, while to realize how rewarded I felt always being on the go, and always being productive, like how much my identity was tied up in that even when I was on holiday. And that's what we're gonna get into today, my conversation with my guest is going to completely change your relationship with rest. That's my prediction, Nikki, St. Paul is my guest. And she is a mind body and breath coach and the founder of breathing, mindful coaching. Her work is really working with ambitious women and workplaces and communities to embrace rest, and rise to achieve sustainable success and thrive in their lives. She's really on a mission to redefine rest and success, which is what we'll get into. So we talk about how rest is essential for our well being. I think we can all get that. But the interesting part of that is how we should say that there isn't something that's to be earned or done after everything else. Because that puts us on the path of burnout, how we need to detach worthiness from output, when that's really crucial to finding fulfillment and burnout, something I can learn more about, and that there are seven types of rest, which was news to me. So stick around to hear that trust me, this conversation is going to make you feel uncomfortable. It certainly did for me, because we are so deeply programmed by the systems that we are in who benefit from our labor, and our work ethic. But I invite you to use this next 45 minutes or so to rest in our conversation and just be open and curious as to what arises within you, as you listen to let's go listen to Nikki support. And talking about rest.

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Nikki's and Paul, welcome to and said our work, we're gonna talk about rest today.

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Thank you so much for having me, Catherine, I've been excited to chat about this topic that I can't get enough of, really. And it's kind of ironic coming off two weeks where I was forced into race.

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And we've had a bit of email exchange about how the body even if you aren't wanting to rest how the body can take you into rest. Let's start with your sort of personal awakening, if I can use those words as to what race was for you and how you were not having the race that you need it. It started back in 2008, if I'm correct, and it was at that point when I was in a really busy role in the pharmaceutical industry, traveling a lot in the country and out of the country, and had a young, a young child at that time. So lots of demands, both personally and professionally, really trying to strive to be successful, working long hours and doing all the things and never feeling like I was able to catch my breath, literally, as well. And I just found that I wasn't able to keep up with what I had become accustomed to is my output. So my pace. And I think looking back, it was what you would describe as burnout. But I didn't use that language at the time because it wasn't a term that was so frequently used as it is now. And I just realized that I just couldn't continue to try and push my body beyond the limits that it was able to and how I really came into contact with rest and slowing down was quite ironic. So I turned up at the gym to go to my spin class because like I needed more faster exercise. And I turned up and all the bikes were gone. And I was mad With a lady behind the desk that said, Oh, we've got this class body balance. I was like, oh, gosh, that sounds really slow and boring. And I was like, Okay, I'm here already. Let me sit down. And it's a balance of Yoga and Tai Chi and breath work. And it's a lovely class. But at the time, I was like, What am I doing here?

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What is this all about? And I realized that they would start the class with slowness and breathing and in the class in that way, and I realized, oh, I can actually begin to control how I'm feeling by changing the way that I'm breathing, because I realized how calm I felt in that moment. And I then began to explore breathwork, not in a serious way, initially, just meditation and stillness and realize that, oh, I can actually come up with more ideas, I can actually be more imaginative and more creative than I ever thought I could be. And time moves on. And you forget about some of the things because you learn to cope with whatever that new normal is. And just over the years, I've now become to realize that actually, I thought, rest was something that I had to earn, I thought rest was something that I did after everything else. And rest has been my savior. Rest has been my soft landing place that I like to visit daily, even if it's in small amounts. So I came to it through. I think a typical means that I think a lot of people might resonate with, but rest gave me what I'm doing today.

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Rest opened up a portal to me doing the work that I'm sure will we'll talk about throughout this conversation. Dream World is just rehearse. He talks about an arrest as far as

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I can relate to the output and the sort of sense of whack of mole of yeah, I've done the 17 emails, and I turn my eye and then there's another 20 emails me like, how do I possibly say on top of that, in the sense of my value is linked to my output? And if I don't say yes to that project, or stay on top of my inbox on my slack, then then am I worthy as a human being? Yeah,

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I think you've hit on a huge reason as to why we often busy ourselves. And were this busy badger all the time. Because our worth has been in this society that many of us are living in has been linked to what we produce. And as human beings, we all want to matter.

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That's our basic need, or at least it's quite low down in that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we all want to belong. We want to feel that we belong. And even if in our society, belonging means getting stuff done, being productive, then we just keep doing more of the stuff to feel like we belong.

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And yet it's a never ending thing. It's a sort of Sisyphean task, right? Like, there's no end. There's no level you get to and you're like, here you are, you can now you can feel like a decent human being or you can have your humanity back or now you can rest, as you said, like you had to rest was a reward for the effort, not a divine human rights. Yeah,

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I mean, it's like your washing basket. It's never empty. It's like a cycle, it's a cyclical thing. Once we realize it's on a cycle, it's never going to get to the bottom, we're never going to get to inbox zero. And so, once we realize that, and we can detach our worthiness to what we've accomplished, then we can focus on feeling inherently worthy. As just human beings. There's no need to earn it. There's no conditions of deep work, right?

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attaching our worthiness. It's hard from and it's ongoing, it's never done. We're part of

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systems that systems of oppressions with which we are fighting against, and that if we seek to find our worth, and just being into who we are being, you are fighting bigger things and just your own psyche.

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Yeah, it's structural, it's systemic, that's for sure.

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How do you work?

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Because I mean, this is your this is part of your work.

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What's the process of helping people detach worthiness from our from our output?

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I think as to start with rediscovering who we are, as human beings. A lot of the people that I work with, have been on this earth for a number of decades. I work with a lot of people in midlife, or at least people have had at least 1015 years or so in the workplace. They often have been doing what they feel that they should do. They've been following a career path that maybe they've been advised to or felt natural in their 20s. And they've just kept on going, striving for this destination.

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And they get there and they're like, I don't know if this is where I want to be. I don't know if my ladder is up against the right wall. But if you've been trying to climb that ladder For 20 something years, it can feel really unsettling to consider changing the course the path that you're on and so terrifying. I mean,

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if I'm in the wrong lane on the wrong wall than what what am I? Who am I? And what 10am? I doing? Yeah,

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yeah. So I think it's about self discovery, figuring out again, well, who is Katherine, who is Nikki? What are my values? What are your values, what matters most. And you can only really find that through stillness and rest, you're not going to find it, running on autopilot, at a really fast pace, you have to slow down to do that work that inner work. So that's what I help people to do is to start there, you

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make me think of your sprint class story makes me think of my own journey as a menopausal woman and weight problems. And then the doctors always say, as a menopausal woman with hormonal imbalances, the last thing you need to do is go work out 10 kilometers on the road, or do an hour and a half spinning class like we don't need more cortisol with the answer isn't more, go do something in a library energetic or workout an hour on the bike.

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And I'm like, oh,

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because that was my response to managing the stress of the my first 20 years of career was to go and do more things that actually add more physiological stress that may feel good. And that may be good for your health, at some level.

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And I see. And I can see a similar pattern that people that I talked to like like what you're saying that they, they have these existential questions and either expect them to drop from the sky in some sort of magical way. But the discomfort of creating space and stillness for someone who's never done it for 20 years, or their whole life is profound. Yeah. And I think you touched on something about the physiological elements of this. Because if you've been running at a fast pace for most of your adult life, which many people have, your body is simply not used to slowing down. Yeah, it will feel unsafe to slow down. The nervous system will say what on earth is happening here? When we feel the discomfort the twitchiness, the unease of slowing down. We think, oh, that means it's just not for us. It's not for me, I shouldn't be at that pace. That pace is wrong. Yeah. Something wrong. Yeah. But he's just about persisting with it. Because our bodies are meant to live a life of ease, like animals get it? I mean, I don't have any pets. But you look at cats. Like they have got it. Yeah, they understand about rest. Yeah. And they only really turn on their stress response when they need to flee something or fight something.

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And that's really what we should be doing. Really, our stress response is a good thing. We need it. So it's not like about vilifying Oh, we don't want any stress. Like, it's can save our lives, it can help us. But if that's our default, then that's when it becomes hard to rest.

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Because the body is just, it's an alien feeling.

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I think about it was probably a long time ago. But the first time I was into the yoke class and getting stressed and air and lying back in a dead man's pose, whatever, it's whatever the weather term is, and you're going, and now. And there's this stillness you like, what's going to happen? She's going to say something. What are we doing?

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Exactly? What's next? Yeah, and I'm sure I'm sure there's some lessons going.

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Oh, yes, that ending pipe. Yoga is really painful. But we have to be still in the game. We have to be still that's the body going? Unless I'm sleeping. What what is this? Exactly? And I think you touched on another good point. Rest is not equal to sleeping like they are two different things. Yeah, we need both though. We need sleep. And there's been lots of amazing conversation about why we need sleep all of Matthew Walker's stuff, but we need a rest to it's

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right. It's a different thing. And you talk about the seven types of rest.

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Yes, yes. I love the work of Dr. Saundra. Dalton Smith. She has done an amazing TED talk on the seven types of rest. And that's where a lot of my thinking has come from and as broadened my understanding of what rest is that it's more than napping and sleeping.

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I think when we first I had a conversation probably was where my thinking was was to rest is to lie on the couch and to watch Netflix or something or to sleep like it's um there's something horizontal for me about resting. I'm sure other people can relate right it's though without having spent some time say more about the seven give us more flick more color on on the seven types

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of risks. So there's this physical rest which most people will straight away go to. Within physical there's active and then there's passive.

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Some active is where you might be doing some gentle movement, some gentle stretching some rest restorative practices, while you're not vegetatively still, and then more passive rest might be closing your eyes laying down napping, like that can be physical rest. And then you've got mental rest. And this is the one I think that a lot of people may be able to relate to. Our brain is just constantly processing information. And sometimes we do need to let it just give it some downtime to press the reset button. And then there's creative rest, which is what I love. And this was one that I didn't typically align with rest, but it's like, we can be restful by doing something creative. And we're all creative beings. It's not about whether you're an amazing artist, amazing painter or musician. It could be doodling, then there's like sensory rest, or the lights or the sound or the noise? How can we turn it down? And how can we maybe bring in and reawaken our senses through lovely smells, lovely sounds. So there's that sensory rest, then there's spiritual rest, which is like things like prayer, if you're religious, or meditation.

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And I think that once we start to see that there's different ways that we can rest and we need all seven, at some points.

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It's about knowing ourselves, to know what we need in that moment. And do we need a nap? Or actually, do we need to go on a walk outside?

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But doesn't that raise one of the challenges that I see so much of knowing your needs?

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I think it's about the disconnect that we have with our mind and our and our body. As a certainly Western society, very obsessed with our bodies. This isn't every individual, but it's all about how do I look in this and getting some are ready and all of that stuff that we see. At the same time. We're so detached from our bodies. And we're living in the head. We're thinking about yesterday, or planning tomorrow, planning five years time, 10 years time. And we're forgetting the exact moment that we're in, and the body and the breath. And grounding. Really feeling the present moment is such an amazing way to connect with our body. Because it's like, oh, I'm breathing right now. Not yesterday, not tomorrow, right now. And I think when we can start to connect and come home to ourselves, we can start to pick up on the signals. Because I think as you were saying about not being well, the past couple of weeks, the Body Keeps the Score. I mean, there's a whole book on that. But actually, the body stores the experiences, even if we're shoving them down with like chocolate and coffee and alcohol. We're pretending that positive vibes only. It's all these things that forced us to or cause or should I say, to ignore what we're actually feeling, whether that's physical sensations, pain, discomfort, or whether it's emotional discomfort. And it's about opening up the welcome mat, for the things that we're dealing with not letting it suck us in.

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But just acknowledging it going, this is how I feel I'm not going to pretend I don't feel that way. And so once we start to practice it in small ways, and I'm sure we'll come on to this, we get better at picking up the subtle signs, rather than waiting until the body crashes and burns, which is very common around holiday time.

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Yeah, that first week of holiday that everyone seems to get, get sick get sick. And yeah. So is your journey into understanding what you need to have somatically did that come about through your breathwork training? Yeah, the training

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I've through. So I am not a yoga teacher. But I do practice yoga. But a lot of the work has come through mindfulness, Simon, mindfulness meditation teacher as well. And mindfulness really encourages the embracing the present moment and paying attention to it on purpose, as if our life depended on it, because it does is the only moment we have, we don't have any other. And so when I began to practice that, both prior to my training, and during my training, I realized, Oh, I was starting to pick up on thoughts and the thoughts about the thoughts, just noticing everything. And with that awareness comes the ability to make a change. And we're not aware we're just running off of autopilot, which is a very common phrase, I know. But it's like, often we're just doing the thing. We don't even realize we're doing it. But we have awareness. That's power. It's knowledge. It's information that we can use to change for the better if we want to

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what what is it because I've always struggled with meditation, and mindfulness and I my own theory is is trauma or childhood trauma and somatic and stuff still sitting in the body that to be still is probably problematic is painful for me. But to move, you know, we've talked about this I have a movement practice that achieves the similar sort of thing like you're you're moving in a way with how you moving or what part of the body wants to move or not move.

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I love that you mentioned that because meditation isn't just sitting in Lotus Pose, you can have a walking meditation, you can do mindful movement, you can do anything mindfully. If you're deciding to brush your teeth, which I hope that you're doing every day, you can do that mindfully, it's just simply means being aware of like how the toothbrush feels against your teeth, the smell of the tooth. And you might think, what's the point of this, this is a bit silly, I'm just brushing my teeth. But sometimes the things that come to you the or, and the wander around the way that the toothpaste foams up, or just really just build your curiosity muscle, which sometimes we've lost, builds our playfulness, our willingness to be beginner's at things. Imagine if you are brushing your teeth and pretending if it was the first time that you'd ever brushed it, or you're eating a meal and pretending as if it's the first time you've ever eaten that meal, and really favoring with all of your senses. And I bet you'll notice different flavors, and have a different experience of your meal or your your drink. I mean, there's the raisin meditation, which is very popular, which a lot of people are familiar with. And like raisins have never tasted so different. When I first did that I didn't realize by smell or that they were see through there was translucent in that way.

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I'm gonna say I've done that a few times, I find it so annoying. I'm just giving voice to some people will relate to your experience of that, and others will have different experiences. And it's all okay, right. Like, we have our own ways into this normalizing this.

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There's a continuum here and I was thinking as you're talking like, I'm often the only person in the tube in London without a headphone on all my face in a device. And there's a great point of just sitting and watching, being the rattling train and the noise and the is a mindful moment. And that and that you could commute mindfully is where I was going with you 100%

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Can and I was reading a book stolen focus recently, and there's talking about mind wandering. And we were often told at school told off probably for daydreaming turned off that it was a practice that we should avoid.

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But actually, as well as directed, focused attention.

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mind wandering is where like connections are formed. It's where we can all that thing connects to that thing.

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Actually, mind wandering and daydreaming, whatever label we want to give it is a mindful moment, it's allowing the mind to do its thing without saying I must achieve x by y.

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I know you've said earlier that at the beginning of this conversation had this word that was body of work that you do now came out of dreaming.

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Yeah, it just, I think being comfortable. And trusting my own intuition, which is something which was very unusual to me a couple of years ago, because I would have always thought I was somebody else knows the answer. Like they must know, we become used to seeking external validation seeking the opinions of others. And that's not to say, Catherine that we shouldn't look for expertise or seek opinion. But who else knows what we need other than us. But we've become out of tune and been learning to think, oh, that gut feel whatever we want to call it. Oh, it's probably wrong. But it's never led me wrong ever. Even if things don't always work out the way that I want to. I've found that when I listen and tune in, I always have the answer. Like I always have to. And that's not to say that there's anything special about me. No, it's innate wisdom, and we're such wise human beings. It's we are so wise. But if we don't listen and ask the question, What lesson would you have me know, asking ourselves, How are we? How are you? We ask everybody else that often at first, when we ask it, we're thinking, nothing's coming. Like I've asked the question, how are you? And no answers coming? We just have to be patient and allow it to come and trust what comes up and don't think Well, that's not good enough answers that well who says Yeah, well, that's stupid. Oh, that's really? Yeah, yeah.

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There's a wonderful practice I got I was taught by a woman called Mara glatzel who does a lot of sort of social justice restorative work in the in the US and she has this practice of starting each morning when you wake up and few minutes with yourself like how am I feeling? And then what do I need today? And I mean, this is a few years ago now I could just about manage I was feeling although often was like tired, tired sort of feeling like state Stay Stay with it. But when you got the feeling, then you're like, well, maybe I was anxious or something and like, what what do you need today? Maybe you need a hug, maybe you need to get those insurance forms, and maybe you whatever that is, I had to use her cheat sheet of needs to understand to have the language for my own needs.

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I think that's how disassociated I was. Many of us are from when I say what are your needs? Like? People don't even know how to answer that.

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Yes, it's similar to how do you feel other than happy and sad and glad? It's languages is often doesn't go much deeper than that. But I think one of the things I found around the meeting the needs piece is, even if you say, oh, what I need is to be on a beach somewhere in the Caribbean, that may not be possible to you in that exact moment. But what elements of the beach and the Caribbean? Can you bring in to your day? It's just about opening yourself up. And that doesn't mean that you should wear a bikini in January, like what elements? What about that beach atmosphere? Can you bring in it can be something as simple as like, Okay, I'm gonna have to change my screensaver to something or I'm going to, like if you want to be cozy, can you light a candle? Can you wear a nice sweatshirt, that's a bit warmer, like, and you might think these things are really small. But it's just a way of showing that you are able to identify and meet your needs.

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There's a mothering here, I like an internalized mothering capacity that's similar. But so many of us seem to have sort of Mother wounds around that. And you make a great point like this idea of rest doesn't mean I've heard this a lot and probably said it myself, or rest when I get to insert holiday destination sleeves, whoever knows I'll rest when I get to the Caribbean. But you have this approach of of micro risks. As you explained here, how do I bring it into the moment, which I think is so pragmatic,

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there's nothing wrong with long holidays and far away breaks, I think that we need both we need those macro breaks those sabbaticals even or long holidays. But we can't save everything up for them. Now, that's not saying it in a pessimistic way. So for me, micro moments of rest are also a way of teaching the body that it's safe to slow down that it's safe to sit with yourself. And you do that in small ways. And there's been loads of studies done about how we can do this in the workplace. And sometimes as little as a minute to 10 minutes, a few a number of times a day, actually can mean that we have more energy, that we feel better about being at work and better about ourselves and more able to show up in the evening for our friends, our families for ourselves outside of our, our work.

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I remember the scene, the jet the pictures of the Japanese workers who had like little beds, by their in the office, like they had a bed and they'd have asleep, I think they were probably pushing more than eight hours, eight hour shifts.

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We're not talking about resting for the sake of getting the squeezing water of you know, 100%

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this whole mantra of rest is productive, is something which I fundamentally disagree with rest can lead to better productivity efficiency, making less mistakes. But if we think that we're resting so that we get more done, I feel that's just feeding into this whole toxic productivity and hustle culture, rise and grind all that stuff that we hear. So yes, you may be more creative, you may feel more energized, you may solve problems more easily. You may be a nicer person to be around. But that's not we're not resting so that I can then go go at it hard for a few more hours.

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That is a beautiful byproduct of it. And that's how I like to see it. It's like I'm not ignoring the benefits. But I don't need to get more done to to deserve to rest, I'll rest even in a micro moment of a minute of stretching or gazing out of the window to rest my eyes. Because I can go back to like what is your attitude towards rest?

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Is it something in order to be a more productive machine in the capitalist machinery? Or is it because you're a divine human being?

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Your human right is to rest?

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Yeah. And I think for some people, they will find this quite hard to hear.

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What do you mean, and I understand that and that's why another part of the work that's important is to understand your rest story. What have you been told what have you taken on as your own and that will be unique for each person. There'll be similarities, but you would have seen things growing up, either from your family in school, you would have heard things you would have been a part of conversations that are fed into how you view success, ambition and rest. And until you truly, truly understand what that is, and you can't rewrite it, and it will essentially run how you how you move through the world around you. Yeah,

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that's beautiful. It's like the money ancestral work that you need to do to understand your actual money.

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Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

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So what was that? What did you grew up with your

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What was your risk story? Definitely lots of you have to work extremely hard, often twice as hard. The whole idea that if you're really, really sick, then you can be off. It's this whole? Am I sick enough to be off sick? And I find that now that I look at him, I can't believe that I who am I sick? Like, is my temperature high enough? Am I coughing enough. And I think that's something which I saw and I saw people coming into the workplace, like, this is like pre 2020, really unwell they should not have been there.

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That's what I saw. And I saw people getting rewarded in school for 100% attendance. Now, that's fine, if you've been absolutely fine each day. But if you've soldiered on and come in, when you shouldn't have, I don't think that's something that should get a certificate. These are things that we grow up with in schools, and we grew up going to school, and having to wait to use the toilet. Now, I'm not saying that you should keep going in and out of the toilet all of the time. But if as a young child, you're taught that your body is giving you a signal that it needs to go to use the toilet, and someone's telling you, you got to wait another 20.

00:31:52.980 --> 00:32:25.950
So yeah, and so these are these are just some of the things I mean, there's many more than just around if you're sitting down, somebody's saying to you, is there nothing else you could be doing? This is actually really important. So I think a language that helped me is it's rather than doing nothing, it's just non doing. I'm just being I'm just being like that is that is really helpful because that is what we are human beings.

00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:25.950
Human beings.

00:32:26.190 --> 00:33:03.509
Yeah, not human do is Yeah. I think I grew up with a very Protestant work ethic, which was work as hard as you can on weekends, and you're working around the house and a mother who was a nurse and in anyone who's had a nurse as a parent, or a medical professionals apparent they're incredibly unsympathetic. I mean, literally heavy heavy was unless your carotid artery is spitting blood on the wall and you're fine. You go in, I think Measles, the only time I got out because I literally had bumps in whatever I had signs of measles was the only time I didn't go to school. So you were right, like, what does that tell me about?

00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:09.420
I've done a lot of work. So last week wasn't being being off. I wasn't beating myself up for being off.

00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:13.829
But I know people who do all of that is steeped in your body.

00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:17.250
Like you've just been told that unless you're really truly ill.

00:33:17.430 --> 00:33:20.220
Like, if you're just a little bit under the weather, yes.

00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:21.509
Power through.

00:33:21.690 --> 00:33:24.420
It's the grind thing.

00:33:21.690 --> 00:33:26.160
It's I can't get on, get on with it. Yeah. Show up.

00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.220
How about showing up for ourselves? It's back

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:44.819
to that mothering wound, I think that I certainly have of, I can take care of other people. But do I offer the same kindness and compassion understanding to myself as I would to a friend? And the answer is never to be no. Why not? Why don't I? Why don't I myself

00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:51.329
that. And I think this is where some of the essence of mindfulness comes in.

00:33:47.430 --> 00:34:06.210
It talks about self compassion, and it talks about I think sometimes you think self compassion or compassion is like, almost like pity. But actually, it's, it's not it's just showing yourself that understanding of okay, this is where I am right now. And

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.789
what do I need, again?

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:11.639
Being pretty present with yourself again, yeah, exact gift of presence. Yeah.

00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:28.708
And I think showing yourself some grace, which I know that's another word that I'm hearing a lot of, but I do think it's just about it's okay to, to be a beginner and it's okay to get things, quote unquote, wrong. It means that I'm trying something different.

00:34:24.838 --> 00:34:36.778
There was a quote I heard recently about, it's all risky, everything is risky. If everything is risky, that's, it's like choosing your poison.

00:34:37.108 --> 00:34:41.608
It's like, if everything is risky, doing nothing is risky.

00:34:41.938 --> 00:34:49.739
Doing the thing that's hard is risky. So which risky Are you going to choose? In perspective?

00:34:45.329 --> 00:34:54.268
Because it is risky? Like everything? I mean, if if you really thought about it, like you wouldn't even leave the house. Yeah.

00:34:57.449 --> 00:35:19.110
Have you in the conversation leader? About rest and not not necessarily for themselves. But allowing that paradigm in an organization. How do you get past what I think is so deeply programmed and leaders appreciate the idea of productivity that you can certainly sell rest in to an organization on the on the premise of productivity, and you have a strong view against that.

00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:27.030
I think the idea of deep work is is understood now based on Cal Newports.

00:35:23.730 --> 00:35:27.030
Amazing work,

00:35:27.329 --> 00:35:35.340
we'll say a bit more, because I'm not sure what is that? Why the underside? Yeah, he said, I love the book. But yeah, let's give him a shout out. Go for it. Yeah, absolutely. I

00:35:35.340 --> 00:36:46.530
mean, I think this whole idea of all the distractions, that we could quite easily lead us down a path, that means we're constantly task switching, rather than multitasking, like we think that we're doing. And there is a lot of body of work that's been done to show if we can minimize or eradicate distractions, and sit down in a focus period of time and really get into flow, where we're almost losing the track of time and able to get on with whatever it is a project, whatever it is that we're doing. And that's why even in an open plan offices now there are little cubby holes and spaces where quiet places where people can go off and do deep work, where we're able to really get to a place, that's a lot harder if you're constantly being interrupted. Because the brain takes a while to get back on track. Every single time somebody says, Hey, could you just answer x. And so deep work is a route to produce good quality outputs. Because we're able to really give it the focus and attention that it deserves.

00:36:46.829 --> 00:39:05.730
But deep rest is of equal importance. And I think the way that organizations can take this on board, within their workplaces is, if we're thinking about the duty of care that organizations have to employees well being, we know that people are feeling in such a way that they're either feeling very disengaged in the workplace, or they're having to take time off work. They're having to almost feel like a sense of apathy towards what they're actually there to do. So they're there, but they are disengaged. And so I think certainly, as a leader, it's about trying to understand and trying to model I think, really, because I've had a couple of leaders who have modeled, I would say, a better approach to slow pace. So sometimes you can actually slow things down within discussions, slow things down within a meeting structure, allow people thinking time allow things to go down a peg in terms of speed and pace, allow people to mind wander, allow people actually, even down to, if you are setting up a meeting, what's the break structure looking like? Like, are you gonna use sitting people down for two hours? And then say, let's just, Oh, are we okay to work through lunch? Like that is just something that sends that signal. So it can be something as simple as if I'm having a team meeting? How can I ensure that breaks are embedded within it? And it's not a working break or a working lunch? And, and I've been a part of meetings in that way. So I think there are some organizations that are doing amazing things around having quiet times allotted throughout the day. But I think the culture is still there. Oh, do I want to be seen to be actually taking this break that they said that I can have as a leader, do you take it? Because then maybe if you take it other people see Oh, okay. It's okay. It's not just there. It's like, the pool table that never gets used,

00:39:06.449 --> 00:39:14.760
as long as the latest trend and well being that we're being shoved at us. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, I think modeling is a great way.

00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:39.150
And how do you because one of the things I've noticed now, is that any gap that anyone has, like at the beginning of a Zoom meeting, and not everyone's there, or, you know, they're they're answering emails? Maybe it's an impossible question to answer but I'm curious as to like, you create you create the break, you could create a proper break for lunch, whatever. Have you heard you encourage people to then go and do the thing that is anti racist, catch up on emails?

00:39:39.630 --> 00:40:14.369
I think education has to form part of it. Having conversations like the ones we're having, actually informing people about rest and the different ways to rest and also, if we allow people to actually get outside during the work meeting. actually even say, Okay, let's all take a break outside, we have to treat people as adults, right. And I think if somebody really wants to check their email, I don't think we should get to a place where we're saying, Oh, no, you mustn't check it.

00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:30.840
But I think what you can do again, it's about modeling. Are you checking yours? Are you on the phone? Or are you out resting? And that could be stretching, having a conversation, going to grab some water, listening to an audio books and music, like there are different ways it doesn't have to mean going for a run, it

00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:41.639
could just be your seven ways again, the way Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Once you're hopeful, the world gets the message around rest and rest as liberation.

00:40:42.269 --> 00:41:41.760
I think it's micro moments, it's not like, it's not that we expect people to be away from their desk for half an hour, resting every hour. And that would not be feasible in an organization. But actually, if people were identifying, I've been in this room of darkness. For two hours, in a room with no windows, I realized that I need to get some natural light and get outside for five minutes. It's like people realizing what they need, and giving themselves a little bit of what they need every single day. And that may seem very lofty and unachievable, but when you realize that just a few moments of rest, can make a huge difference to how you show up and how you feel and what you're able to contribute. It's not about productivity, but it does impact it impacts people's efficiency and effectiveness. So that's potentially what people need to see the benefits of like, actually, I feel better about myself, I'm able to show up in the evenings and not be completely wrenched out.

00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:48.090
I'm to your point earlier in the conversation about people saying, I got the wrong letter on the wrong wall.

00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:57.780
Like some of that, knowing the answers to the big existential questions that you might be holding, come from a rested human being. Yeah,

00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:19.769
because you, you take your body into a state of rest and digest you down regulate your nervous system, and you then have access to creativity, to innovation to problem solving, and to time to let things settle. Time to decide what your next best step is, is how to do that at a fast pace. Impossible to do it.

00:42:20.369 --> 00:42:49.440
I have people saying what do I? What's my why? What's my purpose? What am I doing? And they want to download? And in our conversation, no, no, but I use the word things like cooking, like you have to take these questions, these opening equations and sit with them and cook them. And you can see for some people, I don't know what you're talking about. But this is the dream space that becomes accessible. Because in either in rest or because you are you have you arrested if I can use that language? Absolutely.

00:42:49.440 --> 00:43:25.860
Because then you, you start to get a sense of okay, this is what's important to me, this is what matters most. And you start to see opportunities in the external world that you've missed perform. Things, people that can help you get into places, opportunities, whether that's roles or whether that's ideas out there in the world. They're always there. But if we're not slowing down enough to spot them, we literally run right past them. What final words do you have for people listening, the

00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:30.599
key that we haven't you think that you really want them to know or like a key takeaway here?

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:49.800
You want to gift? Rest is a skill. It's a skill. So it's not something you're either good at or not good at, and every skill needs to be practiced. There's no wrong way to do it. So I would say that, knowing that it's a skill, let's not talk about it.

00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:57.809
Let's do the thing. Let's go practice. Yes. Even in micro mindful moments, yeah. Is a good place to start.

00:43:58.170 --> 00:44:20.400
Yeah, you've given us loads of easy ways in without having to book a bit expensive overseas trip. But that's not what it's about if you've been paying attention. Yeah, I love that. Well, Nikki, thank you for your time. And thank you for the work that you're doing in the world. I imagine you have a dream for some time in the future 100 years where, where we have a very different relationship with rest. Exactly.

00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:44.849
And I think just my final point to say is that I want to see a world where we can rest and we can rise. Because I think that they are seen often as at odds. Either we rise and be ambitious and successful. Or we arrest and we're lazy and unproductive. Actually we can rest not to rise, but we can rest and rise. Yes.

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.289
What a beautiful place to end. Thank you, Nikki for being on the boardwalk and

00:44:49.289 --> 00:44:50.190
thanks for having me.

00:44:55.469 --> 00:45:08.610
So I just love Nicky's invitation that we model a slower pace that Assuming that you bought into the human right, that is rest that we model it as leaders. And then we see rest as a skill.

00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:39.179
That's a hook for me. She told me that there's a learning path for me to a new skill. And I'm always up for that I love to get better at these things. So that little mindset shift is really helpful for me to make this something more than just a nice concept that I've heard. It's something that I feel that I could lean into and learn to get better at. Here's to being more of a human being in our existence. Yeah. If you'd like to learn more about how to work with me, the one to one with your teams, and check out the links in the show notes, and until next week, this is your wingwoman signing off.