Ep 186: Revisiting Boats, Belonging, and Battling Climate Change ft Maurice Tamman

Joshua Wilcox [00:00:00]:
Hey. What's going on, guys? This is Josh, Rafael's producer of White Label American. This is gonna be another special episode where we're digging back in the archives and finding some great episodes that you might not have heard. And this one is with our special guest, Maurice DB Taman.

Raphael Harry [00:00:16]:
Hi, everyone. Rafael Harry here, and you're listening to white label American, a podcast where we hear stories from an immigrant or 2, sometimes more. Thank you for listening, and enjoy the show. Welcome to an episode of iLabel America. Thank you all for joining us today. Before I begin, I'd like to thank you for your support and helping us with your community. Content to you guys, especially with my little boss at home, but not complaining. But I need to get more people on the team to make sure the content, the quality of the content is, continues to be as awesome and better than what I'm putting out.

Raphael Harry [00:01:29]:
So the more you support, the better it it gets. But if you can't join us on patreon, on patreon, that's fine. You can also support by liking, sharing, and subscribing and, especially giving us a positive review on iTunes, and that 5 stars. We need the 5 stars on every podcast platforms, but especially iTunes because of the algorithm. We can't compete with, big celebrities out there. We don't have the money. So that's the only way we can keep climbing up there. So keep the 5 stars and positive reviews coming in.

Raphael Harry [00:02:02]:
So with that being said and, yes, we also have t shirts atvet clothing.com. You just, go to the sponsors, on, tab. You'll see, white label American podcast t shirts, and, yeah, get yourself a t shirt of your favorite color. So with that being said, I introduced today's guest. He's an author, a sailor, and he says sometimes journalist. But I say he's an all time journalist, but he he refers to himself as sometimes a journalist. So, was April last year, I was on Twitter, and I'm still getting used to Twitter because I joined late 2018. And I saw I came across this article on, writers, and it was a story early in the pandemic of, how the pandemic was hitting the homeless population in New York City where I live.

Raphael Harry [00:03:01]:
And I was like, oh, one of the the people who were who was affected and one of the homeless people in the story happened to be fellow Nigerian born. And the person who was writing the story said he had ties to the country. And I was like, wait a minute. That name doesn't sound Nigerian but could it be someone like me with a name that you know, when people see my names, they're like, oh, but you you you're not from Africa or you're not Nigerian. I'm you don't have a name, and they call me by Europe or the ex they bring up a Yoruba name. So I had to look him up, and I was like, oh, I would like to have this person on my podcast and, you know, find out who he is and hear his story. And, you know, I kept I just wrote it down and said maybe one day I'll reach out. Monday I'll reach out.

Raphael Harry [00:03:47]:
And then one day I realized that, wait, he has an Instagram. Maybe I should send a message and, you know, and one thing led to another. And here he is in the studio with me today. We're both vaccinated, so we can be in the studio. So I'm so happy to have Morris, Carmen, put in the studio with me today. And it's inspiring and I'm happy and, you know, I'm overjoyed. So thank you for joining us today.

Maurice Tamman [00:04:12]:
Yeah. It's great to be here.

Raphael Harry [00:04:14]:
So, let's dive in and let's begin from the very beginning. So where was, Morris place of birth and what was your childhood like?

Maurice Tamman [00:04:27]:
I was born in London. And I spent the first few years, in in London. Of course, that means that I'm an Arsenal supporter and I, you know

Raphael Harry [00:04:39]:
Oh my goodness.

Maurice Tamman [00:04:40]:
Yeah. But I I come by it honestly, of course.

Raphael Harry [00:04:46]:
I took a lot of trash to about Asano.

Maurice Tamman [00:04:48]:
Well, it's easy this year. It hasn't always been easy, has it? So, both my parents, were born in Africa. My father was born in Sudan. His my grandmother was born in Alexandria in Egypt. So you know, they're they're North African Arab Jews. So, you know, they're true Africans. My mother on the other hand is is colonial English. She was born in in they were living in in Kenya at the time and in a place called Karen, which is just outside was just outside Nairobi.

Maurice Tamman [00:05:30]:
Now it's a suburb of Nairobi. But she would they were on holiday, and she was born in, Cape Town, I think. Anyway, she was born in South Africa. Her sister was born in in Dar es Salaam, actually. Anyway, in the early sixties, they were both in London, coincidentally. He's a short, swarthy, North African fellow. My mother is a crazy, tanned, white English woman, and they had a torrid affair. And I came out much to the chagrin of both families as it turns out.

Maurice Tamman [00:06:07]:
And then, in the early seventies, when Gauhan was the president of in Nigeria, we moved to Kano in the north Wow. Where my father, we believe, ran a a factory. They where they made lorries and trailers.

Raphael Harry [00:06:25]:
Yeah. There there has to be a yeah. Vehicle factories

Maurice Tamman [00:06:29]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:06:29]:
Not on Nigeria Right. Point in time.

Maurice Tamman [00:06:31]:
Yeah. And and those were the the real formative years for me. You know, living on Kangal Road in Kano, just down the road from the the racetrack and and the giant peanut pyramids that used to build up, which it was, you know, for a pre 10 year old boy, there was nothing more fun than to climb those peanut pyramids and get chased off by the dogs and the guards and such. And then, in the late seventies, we moved back to the UK. Briefly, we lived in Cambridge, just outside Cambridge for a while. And then ultimately in 1979, my father's dream came true to move to the States. And, in August of 1979, we moved to the New York area.

Raphael Harry [00:07:19]:
Wow.

Maurice Tamman [00:07:20]:
So, and then I, you know, went to high school and, you know, went downhill from there. So

Raphael Harry [00:07:28]:
you started in London, Kano. Oh, by the way, you're the 2nd guest on this podcast who was born, outside of Nigeria, but stayed, spent some time in Kano.

Maurice Tamman [00:07:43]:
Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:07:44]:
He's also in New York here. Brian, our Long Awe was born in Ghana. Mhmm. And schooled in Kano.

Maurice Tamman [00:07:52]:
Is that right? Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:07:53]:
Primary school in Kano.

Maurice Tamman [00:07:54]:
Yeah. I went to primary school. There were 2 there was 2 primary schools in Kano when I was there. There was the one for the expats and there was one for the locals. And they were right next to one another. I forget the name of the street, but they were right but every Friday afternoon because school would end at noon because it was so hot and there was no air conditioning. So for Friday afternoon, we would have a football match. And, you know, and there was no grass or anything, but you know, you know.

Maurice Tamman [00:08:25]:
But we would play and of course all the expats would show up in their football boots and their kits and their socks and their shin guards. And they would all look very pretty. And then the kids players from the school next door, which was for the locals, would come over, and we would lose 15 nil every week. Oh. It was then I realized that the great untapped reservoir of footballers from Africa was just ready to be exploited. And I mean, I think you saw since then, you know, some great footballers come from West Africa in particular. Mhmm. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:09:05]:
That that you just brought me up a video that was, it was, that popped up online yesterday. It was just, I was making fun of the 5 year side soccer and someone posted it in our dad's group because I I helped run dad's group that will play every Friday and, it it mentioned, so he used the the person made the video. I think it was a black African in in the UK. Mhmm. Who made the video and he has the, like, the 5 people who you see at the 5 aside. The first guy is the guy coming from the construction.

Maurice Tamman [00:09:38]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:09:39]:
He works in construction. Always smokes. But he he never gets tired when he's on the field. Never gets tired. And then it's I think the 4th person was the guy who has all the kids dressed to the nines. Every club, he has their outfits from head to toe. Doesn't have a single skill. It has no skill.

Raphael Harry [00:10:01]:
I was like, yeah. I remember those days, man. Yeah.

Maurice Tamman [00:10:04]:
But I I used to coach when my kids were younger. I had a son who was a played a lot of football, and so I coached him. And it would there was always an inverse relationship between the quality of the kid and the quality of the player. Yeah. You know, if you had a parent who was hovering all the time and buying the best equipment for their child and sending them off to camps all the time. Invariably, this was a child who was often lacking. And and I don't mean that to put the kids down. It's just that, you know, football is a sport, I think, that you learn it the most by playing with kids your own age and and getting knocked down and getting up and playing and playing and playing.

Maurice Tamman [00:10:51]:
And, you know, sometimes I think people can wish for their children, and that that wish often manifests itself in buying things that they don't necessarily need. True. You know. And I always felt soft I always had a soft spot for those kids because I knew that their their their expectations were not necessarily the same as their parents' expectations. Yeah. And they were coming out and playing and practicing, for their parents as much as they were doing for themselves.

Raphael Harry [00:11:20]:
I I think I once heard someone say something along the lines of, lots of kids in sports are being made to fulfill the dreams their parents couldn't couldn't fulfill. So it's like the parents push them to a certain limit that, you know, it's it's not that's the kid's dream. Whereas the parents trying to relieve that dream that they could never, achieve.

Maurice Tamman [00:11:48]:
Yeah. I think there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:11:51]:
Because, my my, my my daughter loves kicking the ball at home. She sees me watching the game. My mom watches the game sometimes, and so I thought, oh, maybe, a good way for her to start socializing. She she's gonna be 3 in August. Was to get her signed up for one of the kids' soccer in the park. And got out there and she looked from the stroller and said, I wanna go home. She never did. She was coming out.

Raphael Harry [00:12:17]:
I said, okay. But can we watch them? She said, nope. Yeah. So for the first 3 weeks, she said, nope. I didn't force her, but I just brought her there. We sometimes we watch. She would just sit down the stroller, eat, drink. But when we get home, she's kicking the ball all the time.

Raphael Harry [00:12:31]:
Mhmm. But when we get to the park, she sees all our kids, and she knows 1 or 2 of them from the playground, and she's like, hi. But I'm not coming out to play with you. And then yesterday, she comes out and she's just like, I will kick. She will stop scoring. I was like, oh, I I didn't think she was gonna do that, but she's like, ah, I'm I'm ready now. I just I'm like, okay. Well, one of the parents with me, who is actually from the Caribbean, she's she was like, you know, if they want to, they will.

Raphael Harry [00:12:56]:
If they don't, you know, you don't have to force them because when you start how old is that? She's never up to 3. Wow. Like, like, you must go play. You must you know, I'm like, that's me trying to say, I I wanted to be on the team. I I wanted to no. I'm like, no. You just if you don't like it, fine. You go to other spots or you go find your hobbies somewhere else, you know? Do what your own thing.

Raphael Harry [00:13:16]:
So so that's beautiful. Yeah. So with that being said from your childhood, if I were to ask, you know, for your favorite childhood memory. Would that come from Kano or would that come from somewhere else?

Maurice Tamman [00:13:37]:
Almost certainly from Kano, I think. I mean, I lived a little Tom Sawyer ish life while I was there. It was really for a child, it was I mean, compared to what life was like in dreary cold London Yeah. It was like heaven. You know, we had a horse. We had a monkey. We had 3 parrots. We had a swimming pool.

Maurice Tamman [00:14:01]:
You know, I would jump on the horse anytime I wanted to and go down to the racetrack and race around the the track that wasn't too far from the house. Yeah. You know, my parents

Raphael Harry [00:14:11]:
Oh, yeah. There has to be a race. Yeah. There was a race track.

Maurice Tamman [00:14:13]:
Yeah. I checked on Google. It's still there.

Raphael Harry [00:14:15]:
It's still there?

Maurice Tamman [00:14:15]:
It's still there. I mean, whether they use it for racing, I don't know. But then you can see

Raphael Harry [00:14:19]:
the track. I I I just recall seeing that in the news Yeah. Papers. Yeah.

Maurice Tamman [00:14:24]:
And and I think because both my parents were Africans or at least born in Africa, they didn't have they didn't have the protective instincts that some of the Europeans Oh. Expats over there. So I was given license to do whatever I wanted and it just could go. And of course school ended at noon

Raphael Harry [00:14:44]:
Yep.

Maurice Tamman [00:14:44]:
So I was free for most of the day to go and do whatever I wanted. And it was, you know, it was a wonderful place. And, you know, my mom, my mom was always mixing around town. She was very popular around the city, and she was well known. And, because of that, you know, I could go safely and do anything I wanted. Of course, it was a different time then, I Mhmm. I suppose. But, I loved Ghana.

Maurice Tamman [00:15:15]:
It was a magical place for me.

Raphael Harry [00:15:19]:
So, while you were there, you know, mixing around, did you did you pick Hausa?

Maurice Tamman [00:15:27]:
I could speak rudimentary hauser when I was there. I have a funny story about that actually. Now, of course, practicing hauser after you've left Yeah. Is nearly impossible. Right? And, of course, I had many other things on my mind once I became a teenager than maintaining my house. But, so I was, I caught a cab from downtown. This is probably 3 years ago, maybe longer. I and I needed to get to work.

Maurice Tamman [00:15:54]:
I think I had injured my ankle running or something and so I couldn't take the subway. Mhmm. And so, I took a cab from downtown up to midtown. And I get in the cab and I tell the cabbie where I'm going, and for whatever reason, I think he look I look like somebody who could be taken for a ride. And he's taking me all over kingdom come and I'm like, where where the fuck are you going, dude? And he goes, I'm taking I said, no no no no no, you're not taking me. And I could tell he had the ritual scars on his face.

Raphael Harry [00:16:25]:
Right. Yeah.

Maurice Tamman [00:16:25]:
Right? And so I knew where he was from and so I cursed him out in Hausa because I could still remember how to curse in Hausa. And he starts laughing and laughing and laughing and I said and he said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on a second. And he pulled over the car on the side of the road and he gets on the phone and he dials a number and he says holds up the phone and he says, this is my wife. Tell her what you just told me. So I have to curse her out as well. So anyway, at that point we drive straight to the office. Right? And we get out and, you know, I don't know what the bill was.

Maurice Tamman [00:17:00]:
I can't remember now. But I've had a great time at that point. You know, he and I have really had a lovely, you know, 15 minutes together in the misery of of midtown traffic. And I go to pay him, he goes, no, no, no. This one's on me. This has been the best ride I've had in years. So my house had got me a free cab ride once.

Raphael Harry [00:17:25]:
Man, I I I can't remember any house, because I I was born in Jos and

Maurice Tamman [00:17:30]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:17:31]:
I used to speak house as a kid, but, fortunately, family was more about English. So Mhmm. It got beat out of me but, when we moved to Benin City, I, I was, there was a few people who speak Hausa around me, but, yeah, nobody, I wasn't around them.

Maurice Tamman [00:17:50]:
Right.

Raphael Harry [00:17:51]:
So with time, it just disappeared.

Maurice Tamman [00:17:53]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:17:53]:
And I lost the ability to and by the time I moved to Ibadan, where I was around a whole lot of household people here, it just seemed like I was always reaching but I couldn't find it.

Maurice Tamman [00:18:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:18:05]:
So other than Nagode, it's just there's nothing there.

Maurice Tamman [00:18:09]:
Yeah. Or I don't know.

Raphael Harry [00:18:10]:
What's that? Get that one. Yeah. That's yeah. So that's I lost my house. But yeah. But I I still once once you can connect with some taxi drivers, yeah, you can get yourself.

Maurice Tamman [00:18:25]:
Yeah. You

Raphael Harry [00:18:25]:
can get a free ride and some great stories.

Maurice Tamman [00:18:28]:
You know, it wasn't a small bill, I might add.

Raphael Harry [00:18:34]:
Oh. You

Maurice Tamman [00:18:34]:
know, it was a it was a nice size bill by the time we got there.

Raphael Harry [00:18:38]:
Well, so I guess the ride around was worth it. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, Oh, so, how long did you spend in London before return before moving to United States?

Maurice Tamman [00:18:50]:
So we came back, and and 2, two and a half years, we were in England. We actually moved up to Cambridge, just outside Cambridge. Mhmm. I I my father had a peculiar habit of choosing places where we could not have fitted in fit in any less. So, we lived in a little village called Linton and then another small even smaller village called Castle Camps. And then in 9 so in 1979, two two and a half years later, we moved to to a small town up in Northern New Jersey called Sparta. Very pretty place. Doesn't look like most of New Jersey, I must say.

Raphael Harry [00:19:36]:
But when when you say, your father chose places that he couldn't fit in, how does that work then?

Maurice Tamman [00:19:44]:
I I I don't know. My father, you know, I don't know about what your background is, in terms of your immigration, history. But for me, you know, I have been an immigrant now in 2 countries. Mhmm. Right? And I count England as an immigrant country coming back from Nigeria to England. And we moved to this very, you know, it was a very same place. All the students looked the same. All the students thought the same.

Maurice Tamman [00:20:18]:
I shouldn't say all. That's unfair. But there was a there was a monolithic net, tendency. And, you know, I was very tanned. I was very dark haired. I had black, almost, you know, that bluish hair, very dark. Mhmm. And I was Jewish and all those things.

Maurice Tamman [00:20:41]:
And at that point, I hadn't given up my faith and become an atheist. But, you know, we were practicing, and and I you know, at that point, I thought I was the we were the only Jews in town, and it was difficult. You know, once they found out that I was not Christian, I struggled sometimes to even make it home. That there would be boys, there was a couple of kids in particular who would be waiting at me for me at a certain bridge, and oftentimes it would result in fights. Oh. And I really struggled being, you know, different, but my father was an assimilationist. He was a big believer. And of course, that generation of immigrants from all over the world Mhmm.

Maurice Tamman [00:21:30]:
They were they wanted to be English. They wanted to be American. They wanted to be German. They wanted to be French. And they would you know, my father's first tongue is Arabic, and he never taught me Arabic as a matter of principle. He could speak French, English, Italian, Arabic, you know, but he insisted we speak English. Mhmm. Because, you know, I think that he wanted to belong.

Maurice Tamman [00:21:58]:
And my experience was I don't want to belong. If this is the way you treat people who are different from you, I have no interest in belonging. Mhmm. You know, and it's funny how little things affect you, but that for me, you know, I I always started to feel I want to be I don't want to belong if belonging requires me treating other people this way. And so I've always had this kind of outside view of the universe. I'm happy to step inside your world

Raphael Harry [00:22:28]:
Yeah.

Maurice Tamman [00:22:29]:
And enjoy your world and appreciate your culture, but I don't feel I belong anywhere. And as a result of that, I can appreciate you. I can appreciate the good in you and what you have to offer, but I don't belong to any particular group as a result of that. And, you know, I think it's been borne out since I was a kid that, you know, we can be a very unkind species to one another, and we see that all over the world every day. Yeah. Yes.

Raphael Harry [00:22:58]:
That I I think that's something that's common across, you know, various immigrant communities. And even before I, came over to your state growing in Nigeria, it's part of why I lost the ability to speak Hausa because as a kid, I remember being chastised for I I was able to grasp, Hausa and Yoruba before the ages of 5. I was speaking Hausa and Yoruba all in jus because we had, Yoruba kids in my, in my compound and, Hausa kids and kids from other tribes too. But the Yoruba and Hausa were the closest to me, and somehow I just started picking up their language. But the complaint was that my English was not good enough.

Maurice Tamman [00:23:47]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:23:48]:

And that was why I was getting beatings and I was getting chastised and I was I was always hearing family complaints. And somewhere, somehow, I never heard anybody mention that our language, our mother tongue, which is Ijo. Mhmm. Nobody ever mentioned that.

Maurice Tamman [00:24:05]:
Right.

Raphael Harry [00:24:05]:
And then I'm a teenager, one of my grandaunts visits from the village one day and she's speaking, she always speaks in Ijo. And she's like, how old are you now? You still can't understand me or have to speak, Pidgin English to you every time? So that's why I was like, well, why nobody ever tried to teach me? None of you speak to me. You're the only person who does, and she's asking everybody, nobody's man. But then I started realizing that people in my house actually understand language and then she then later on, I found out that people understood like 3, 4 languages. We have Ghanaian blood too. So there's a bunch of tree, fancy going on and I was like, wait. What? How come I was the only person? You know, so but the English learning had gotten so into me that when I was in school, I became arrogant or I I I bought into it so much that when we had the opportunity to learn French. Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:25:05]:
I said why do I need to learn French? I'm British.

Maurice Tamman [00:25:07]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:25:07]:
I I belong to the British. So Mhmm. I refuse to take notes. Yeah. It like, yeah, beat me. I will take the beatings. Yeah. So in school, I was getting beat because I didn't care.

Raphael Harry [00:25:16]:
Yeah. About learning French. I said that's another language nobody speaks. Only France speaks it. And then I started finding out how the African country. I was like, actually, it was a job opportunity when I was around 18, 19. I was like, oh, no. No.

Raphael Harry [00:25:29]:
No. And so I was like, wait. But it was that thing of we we we had to belong to in English. And but I was like, but we're in Nigeria. We're definitely England. Right. So why are we all fighting to be on the English side of things? And so I think that's even how at a very early age, I stopped supporting England at World Cup. Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:25:52]:
And you couldn't find me in English Premier League. I was just detaching because it's like when I started making those connection, like, wow. You all were beating English into me. Mhmm. I'm removing myself from England.

Maurice Tamman [00:26:02]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:26:03]:
I'm removing myself from the English and you know, so so some people are like, oh, you hate England that much that you don't like English people. I said, no, I have English friends. I have English family because they have my I have cousins who are born and raised in England. Mhmm. So that I'm I'm I'm not going to hate them. No.

Maurice Tamman [00:26:16]:
Mhmm. It's not

Raphael Harry [00:26:17]:
their fault. They didn't do anything to me. But that's that is just that the family thing of we had to belong to the extreme. And I saw how it was being used viciously on other people. And to this day, they still don't realize how damaging that was. Because. We all can't speak our language. Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:26:37]:
Only a few people can and then it's like but you are you are an embarrassment for not being able to speak language. But I'm like, who teaches language? Nobody.

Maurice Tamman [00:26:46]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:26:46]:
But you all we all shout English. You must speak English. Yeah. Or English but

Maurice Tamman [00:26:51]:
How difficult, if you don't mind me asking you some questions. Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:26:53]:
Sure. It's a conversation.

Maurice Tamman [00:26:55]:
It's always So, you know, growing up obviously in Nigeria, Nigeria is a a country of so many tribes and languages. And I suppose, you know, given the way the country was was created and the borders were drawn Mhmm. You know, having some language that was common to everybody made sense. Right? Yep. And I guess, you know, you took, you know, the the colonial language was English and so it made sense since the borders were drawn by the colonial powers to speak English. But it must be very frustrating as a Nigerian to know that, you know, your colonial rulers are the ones that dictated the lingua franca, for one of a better word, of nige of your country. And I'm wondering if that's a common feeling or if you have it to just to yourself or

Raphael Harry [00:27:50]:
sometimes I I understand the I'm more understandable with having English as the language for the as one of the official languages. And where the problem arises for me is that growing up for a long time, it seemed like in, the Yoruba house and Igbo were like the big 3. You know? The big 3. Yep. Where and it is just like stamped and said these are the official languages and then but the way it's mapped out, it just seemed like no one else existed. Mhmm. And then later on, you're hit with, oh, there's about 300 ethnic groups and they all have their languages and they're you like, where where are these people? Mhmm. And then if I wasn't from the the, if I was an Ijo from, Bayelsa, I didn't stay in Benin City.

Raphael Harry [00:28:45]:
I wouldn't have met a whole bunch of tribes in the south. But in the north, I just started blanketing everybody as Hausa. Mhmm. So luckily, I've had, one of the people from the north on the podcast who's from a tribe that's not Hausa.

Maurice Tamman [00:28:59]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:28:59]:
But back then, it's one of the reasons why we're having this fighting going on now where everybody's like, I don't like Hausa people. I don't like but you just blanket everywhere. No. They're all Muslims. It's easy to say that because of this idea that only 3 languages existed.

Maurice Tamman [00:29:14]:
You're right.

Raphael Harry [00:29:16]:
And so it's easy to just gravitate to English, but there's no way of saying, yes. We can have 3 official languages, but that doesn't mean we should erase every other language that exist. We should there should be room for your language exist, but how about we have a way of unifying everybody Mhmm. By introducing each other's cultures and languages

Maurice Tamman [00:29:37]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:29:38]:
Together. So it's just like this big 3, you take it or leave it. If you complain, you're against unity. So we have to stamp down on your heart and then it's bam bam. So we're all indoctrinated into this, cult. That's our seed, like a cult. And then one day, it's like somebody snaps out of you. I'm like, wait.

Raphael Harry [00:29:56]:
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I exist. Where where where where's my existence in this fabric of unity? I don't see it. And then you start questioning and then they're like, why are you questioning? And And then this person comes out and, wait. Who are you? You got your name. Why why is someone with a name that sounds Malian? Are you Nigerian? Like, my my my tribe? Mhmm. What? You you people exist in Nigeria.

Raphael Harry [00:30:18]:
Yes. We do. Yeah. Have you been to this part of the country? No. But I thought you all house out there. We have no house out. There's no house out in there.

Maurice Tamman [00:30:25]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:30:25]:
It's like, what? But the all the masks have seen said house no. And then it's like, but so we don't know. It's just by the from the colonial days, they just gave house out to one whole region. Yeah. And everybody just goes with it.

Maurice Tamman [00:30:38]:
Well, there was a recognition,

Raphael Harry [00:30:39]:
I think, from the early

Maurice Tamman [00:30:39]:
days of the hit of Nigeria, that that was

Raphael Harry [00:30:41]:
always gonna be a struggle. I mean, that

Maurice Tamman [00:30:41]:
wasn't that the metaphor of the Nigerian knot. Right? Mhmm. That was supposed to tie everybody together of all different ethnicities and cultures and stuff. I mean, I think it's there's been mixed success over since independence, but,

Raphael Harry [00:31:01]:
I don't know. It's I don't I don't I don't I I don't believe the foundation was ever right. It was never a solid foundation and to me, like, I don't personally believe in Nigeria as a country that the, like, we have, the the like some I was talking to a good friend of mine, we both grew up in Port Harcourt. We're in Port Harcourt. I mean, we stayed in Port Harcourt at around the same time. He's in London now and he brought up a point that the Southern Cameroons, the Ambazonia region that's trying to break out of Cameroons. Now have I ever noticed that their food and most of our food are similar?

Maurice Tamman [00:31:41]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:31:42]:
That we have so much in common with those people than we do with other parts of the country. And was like, yeah. You know, it's true because I met Cameroonians when I was stationed in Bahrain. And they brought a well, one of their stews to me, and I was like, oh, this is so funny. I was trying, like, I'm I'm thinking this before. I think this looks like food up even somewhere. And they're like, oh, yes. You guys call it, a decan cong, but we we call it Eru.

Raphael Harry [00:32:06]:
Yeah. I was like, wow. And he was he was like, uh-huh. I told you. Mhmm. But it's like, so if we are the ones creating a country by ourselves, I don't think we would have created a country with the modern Nigeria. We probably wouldn't or maybe if we had, it would have been a different deal. Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:32:21]:
But this deal that, Britain used was more of we give power to a certain click and it's just these 3 tribes and we still don't know the exact number because it's the sensor is always bent towards favoring the big 3 and out of the big 3 is technically 2 because Igbos have always been marginalized for like forever and it just becomes so lopsided. And the moment you start digging into it, there's always, like, holes and gaps and holes and gaps, and you're like, yeah. Then people will start going, why are we even one country? Why are we one country? It doesn't make sense. So they they asked to just, it's either they have a restructuring or I hate I've I hate to say it, but it's restructuring, civil war, or I don't know if there can be a peaceful breakup, but, you know, that's one of those three things that just has to happen.

Maurice Tamman [00:33:17]:
Yeah. So

Raphael Harry [00:33:18]:
that's where I see it. And but that's but it's part of the cracks that started happening a while back, and every time I meet my tribesmen, I attend meetings, and I'm sitting down looking at the the views, the opinions being given, and it's still like, yeah. But we belong to this union. We need to I'm I'm like, how? We're still it's still going by the same old things that we've been suffering. So how we how's it gonna be different this time? Oh, we'll get power one way or the other. What is the one way or the other? That's still the same. Yeah. Then so do are are we gonna be recognized? We're not recognized.

Raphael Harry [00:33:54]:
We only we're lucky to get a president. And we're like and we saw how the attacks were so vicious against him. Like, people weren't happy that a guy who his disqualification was that he was a minority. Mhmm. But is he qualified to be president? He was the 1st president who was like, nonmilitary, a professor, had a background in education, and but there were people angry about saying, you have to be military and you have to, I mean, it's like, but how many of us are in those places? Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm just like, no. It's it's not working.

Raphael Harry [00:34:28]:
Though they have to go back to the drawing board. We can't we can't rely on what Britain used to set up a country that the people who set it up had never even been there.

Maurice Tamman [00:34:37]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:34:37]:
To create at they were all countries. And then you join up together to form 1 nation. Yeah. So it doesn't make sense to me. But we'll see. Hopefully, it can be a peaceful resolution. But ah, I'm not optimistic about that.

Maurice Tamman [00:34:52]:
Yeah. From your lips.

Raphael Harry [00:34:53]:
Yeah. But back to your story. It's more interesting than my views. So, when did you, you know, with all that happened to you, with all that you had experienced, when did you start to you know, be inspired to take the steps or you know, embrace the journalism, you know, like, I know it wasn't, let me not say I'm not going into university yet, but or maybe close out to university, but when did that, you know, when will you say the I won't say epiphany but like the lights, you know, or the parts, when did the parts start to open up for you, like, maybe this was something that was calling to you?

Maurice Tamman [00:35:47]:
So I had been in the States. I was a sophomore in high school, so it was my 2nd year Mhmm. Over here. And I'm not gonna pretend that I was a particularly, good student because I wasn't. I tended to have 2 grades, a and d, and somehow in the middle was my grade point average. But if it involved writing, I usually did did fine. If it involved anything else, I didn't.

Raphael Harry [00:36:19]:
That sounds really neat.

Maurice Tamman [00:36:20]:
And so Makes you like writing. Yeah. So in my sophomore year, I had a teacher who took one of my essays and and and and it was an essay on using wearing razor blades as jewelry. And I can't remember much else about it, but she was really impressed with it and encouraged me at that point. Now when did I decide I wanted to become a journalist? I think almost from that moment forward, it was somehow in the back of my mind that that's what I would want to do. Now, you know, I I was motivated by many things at that time, not necessarily education. So I went to college. I ended up dropping out, and I took a number of jobs including in sales.

Maurice Tamman [00:37:14]:
And, you know, I had a kid at home at that point. And, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I wasn't happy. And I walked into a small newspaper in Southern New Jersey. And, they was just outside just outside Camden, across the river from Philadelphia. And I said, I'd like to become a a reporter or a journalist. And rather than laugh at me, the woman said, well, if you can go up to Willingboro, New Jersey and write a story about this evening's school board meeting, you can start work as a stringer right now. The stringer is a freelancer.

Maurice Tamman [00:37:51]:
Oh. And Stringer. And so I don't even know if I think it's an anachronistic term these days. I don't know if anyone uses it, but that's what they called it back then. This was 1991. And basically, within a few months, I was what they call a full time stringer, which is basically a freelancer with no benefits. Yeah. And within the year, I was a full time staffer and that was it.

Maurice Tamman [00:38:18]:
You know? I'd it would be almost impossible for anyone to break through into the business nowadays Yeah. That way. But, you know, back then, some people got lucky. Wow. So that's that's how it happened.

Raphael Harry [00:38:37]:
When you mentioned school board meeting, I was like, man, there have been a lot of school board meetings that have gone viral lately. Yeah.

Maurice Tamman [00:38:44]:
Well, the I I Willingboro back in the day, would have been one of those if they had been broadcast that way. Yeah. They were volatile meetings. Of course, they were wrestling with a lot of the socioeconomic issues that we face today. Immigrant populations moving into town, established white communities resenting it, not wanting to accommodate. You know, it was it was it was at the beginning of that the cusp of of some of those issues that that we're facing today in in many ways. And so, you know, my ambition was not to cover school board meetings, but if I had paused for a second and thought about it, I would have realized that these were, the individual stories and the the local conflicts that we continue to face today.

Raphael Harry [00:39:41]:
So I'd like to continue. But before we do that, I'd like to take a quick break, and we'll be right back shortly. Hi, everyone. Your host, Rafael Harry, here. I can't believe we have gone past our 1 year anniversary of doing white label American. I've had the privilege of speaking with some amazing people, sharing their modern day immigrant stories, and you've allowed this Nigerian immigrant to share parts of his immigrant journey through this podcast. Also, one of my goals of this podcast is breaking down artificial walls that keep people from getting to understand each other. Based on your wonderful feedback over the last year, I think we have done a decent job in breaking down some of those walls.

Raphael Harry [00:40:46]:
We would like to continue and expand on this mission, but we need your help. I've had an amazing time creating and producing episodes for this show largely on my own. We have a lot of ideas for new and exciting content to expand upon the mission, but we need direct support from you, our listeners, which is why we have created a white label American Patreon page where you can make a one time donation or become a sustaining contributor, where you can get access to exclusive content, help me interview upcoming guests by submitting questions, and even have the chance to sit down with me for a 1 on 1 conversation either virtually or in studio. So if this podcast means something to you and if you really love this show, think about becoming a sustaining contributor and donating by going to patreon.com/whitelabelamericanpod. Thanks for listening and for the privilege of your company. So welcome back, and thank you for joining us. And we shall continue in the world of journalism. Oh, before we we continue with journalism, we had touched on your return.

Raphael Harry [00:42:22]:
So let me go back a little bit. When you return back to the UK, you had mentioned, you know, your your dad picking an area that you guys weren't, accepted. From

Maurice Tamman [00:42:37]:
the sound of things, did he do the same in in, New Jersey? Yeah. Exactly the same thing. Now I I will say that I found at that time the US to be a liberating place, that I didn't have the same issues that I faced when I came when I when I moved to the UK. So but it was still odd. I mean, we moved you know, my father bought this big house on a on an acre of land in a in a town where we clearly were the only ones or at least one of a very small handful, of Jewish families. And, you know, I think because my mother was not Jewish. She was she converted for him. I think to some extent, he did this for her.

Maurice Tamman [00:43:31]:
Right? That he bought houses and places in places that he thought would make her happy. Yeah. We could talk or, you know, my shrink and I have discussed my father and my mother many times. But in this case, I think that this was a gesture always to her, because she was even though she was born in in Kenya. She was of English stock, and she had she was raised by a very English mother. And so she had those sensibilities and, you know, the pastoral life and all that, you know, the rose gardens and Oh, yep. That was part of her and I think he was he he was attempting to please her. Mhmm.

Maurice Tamman [00:44:16]:
You know, he dragged her all over the world and and yet he chose places that he thought would make her feel more comfortable and happy. Whether he succeeded, I don't know. I mean, you know, that first generation of immigrants, and I and I don't really count myself in that group, but my father, you know, they have dreams about what it means to be an immigrant. Yes. And and they want they're doing it to improve their lives. Yeah. Right? Whether it's to escape from persecution or to find some a better living or whatever it is. Immigrants are doing it because they want to uplift themselves and their families.

Maurice Tamman [00:44:56]:
Right? They believe that that choice they're making, whether forced or otherwise. We don't know if maybe it's not a choice, but that movement from one place to another is for the for the betterment of their families. And I know that my father did that, but I will say that I also don't think he ever found peace in any of the countries he lived in. Mhmm. That he was always as much as I was an outsider, he was an outsider 10 times more. You know, he did I I learned the cultural ticks that allow you to move freely within a in my new country. I you know, whether it's what type of shoes to wear or what type of socks to wear or the jewelry that's okay or the trousers that you should wear or the music. My father never connected at that level culturally and so he was always a foreigner.

Maurice Tamman [00:45:57]:
And he would try desperately to fit in and he would desperately fail every time. And so once he left Khartoum, I'm not sure that he ever found peace again. And it's really kind of sad, because he struggled so hard. Sometimes he had success. Sometimes he didn't. But it was this endless swinging back and forth of not being able to succeed. And, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for him. You know? We didn't get along very well.

Maurice Tamman [00:46:32]:
But I do sympathize for the his struggles and the difficulties, and I don't think it's unique. I think that I think that almost every adult immigrant faces those issues in in to one degree or another.

Raphael Harry [00:46:46]:
I agree with that.

Maurice Tamman [00:46:48]:
I

Raphael Harry [00:46:48]:
agree with that, assessment because, my mom falls into that category, and she, you know, when she she told me she was going back to Nigeria after being here for what? 3 decades and it was kind of like a last minute. I think she she it was at the very last minute. She told me that she was going back and by then, I I'm not, it's not like I would have stopped her from going, but I was just worried about her health and, you know, this insecurity situation in where she chose to go to, but I understood that because she when she finally decided to leave Nigeria and move over here, I if I had been in the position to advise her then, I don't think I would have told her to go. I would have thought to stay Mhmm. Knowing her personality. Yeah. I would have said stay. You you you are better off in Nigeria.

Raphael Harry [00:47:53]:
Things were not that bad for you. Things were actually on the on the upside for her. But whoever advised her said, oh, it's better for you to go and she she just couldn't restart life. And it was a struggle and, you know, it just didn't work out and seeing that all the well, by the time I arrived and I saw it, it was because you you're getting a different picture when you're not there, you're on, you're talking to on the phone, you're getting letters, it's a different picture, and then when I finally arrived, I was like, oh, wow. This is, yeah, this is not what I was being told, and this is now I'm seeing a different a different thing. And it's like, this I I know this person. And even though we had we have our issues, we have our disagreements, it doesn't mean I don't wish you well. I don't want you to, have peace or have, your to to to enjoy yourself.

Raphael Harry [00:48:55]:
I know the environments you're thriving. United States at that point in time wasn't where she was gonna thrive in. Even if she had moved on another country, it wasn't the only place I could see her thriving in was like Ghana.

Maurice Tamman [00:49:06]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:49:07]:
That was the closest. So it was the only option was for her to go back. Yeah. And now that she's back home, it's you can't see the difference. You can see that, you know, she's back where she knows financially. It's not, it's not advisable because she waited a little bit. She waited too long to go back but, yeah, other than that, but you know, psychologically, emotionally, you know, she's, still practicing on the religious side. I'm also not religious.

Raphael Harry [00:49:43]:
I'm an atheist too. And she's, she's thriving and all that. It is what she wants. And I'm like, you know, that's that's what she needed. Yeah. Because she doesn't have to fight anymore to belong. Because by the time she moved here, she was she made her final choice, her final because she had been coming to the states and go back, she had been coming, go back and then she said, okay, I'm going to migrate finally. She was in a, well, she was almost 60.

Raphael Harry [00:50:13]:
And it was like, who are the people that advised you to start life all over again? And yeah, it was, it was a struggle because the fights that she had, my elder brother, I I understood that and I could see the whole, I could see why it was happening. Not that I'm taking anybody's side, but I could see why it was happening because when people will be like, oh, you know, because she's she wants to try to adjust but people are like, but you're this age. You shouldn't. This is not for you. You know, and you're too old and and but she's like, I can I can I can I can adjust? I can adjust. I see your age.

Maurice Tamman [00:50:52]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:50:53]:
Kind of thing. So I I understand from that point of view and because there are some people who are like, oh, but your mom did this to you. Your mom did that. Why is you know, I would have written I I won't talk to her anymore. I'm like, I don't mess with me to talk to her, but I don't hate her. Mhmm. Because I can see why I can see the humanity in her struggles. I can see the miss in her mistakes.

Raphael Harry [00:51:17]:
I can see the human being making the mistakes there, so I empathize with that person.

Maurice Tamman [00:51:21]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:51:21]:
Yeah. So that I I don't have time to do be of hate on all that. And whatever mistakes are, that's for how to deal with. But, yeah, ma'am. I think that's part of my therapy. Also speaking there too. So yeah. But it's something that I understand for immigrants.

Raphael Harry [00:51:42]:
It it took me a little bit to get to that stage to start seeing it that, wow. When immigrants move from one place to another and begin life all over. I think that's another thing that I noticed while I was in the military. I think I began to notice it when I was in the military because when you move from one duty station to another

Maurice Tamman [00:51:59]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:51:59]:
And it's like you start all over there. And I think I met someone's I met I met a woman who was actually, she was from Australia, and she married service, I think her husband's in navy or army. I can't recall which one. And she talked about meeting the guy over 20 years ago, and he was like, oh, I'm just gonna say it for, like, 2 years, and then I'll be out. And then 20 years later, I'm here, and I don't have a career and all this. I'm like, so you had to restart your life everywhere because she can't she can't keep a job.

Maurice Tamman [00:52:30]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:52:30]:
Because she has to live her life according to the man's career. And I was like, yeah, it is not gonna be me. I can't do that. So there's that part of the struggle and you look at all that and you're like, wow. That's yeah. So I I empathize with decisions a whole lot of people make and the journey of a whole lot of immigrants and it it I I understand. I understand. I see the humanity there.

Raphael Harry [00:52:59]:
Yeah. And I it's not easy to make that adaptation, and I understand those who say that's it. I'm I'm done. I'm going back.

Maurice Tamman [00:53:09]:
Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's it's 2 things. I mean, it's language, obviously, but it's more than that. It's it's the language the cultural language as well. Yes. And I think actually in some ways that's a much harder thing to learn.

Raphael Harry [00:53:21]:
It is much harder.

Maurice Tamman [00:53:23]:
It's it's why children come and adapt so quickly is because they're they're fungible and They're the sponge. Yeah. And so they they see it and they pick up on it in its subconscious, whereas adults, we're kind of ossified and, you know, it takes time for us to pick up on. And some of those cues, we never pick up on. Even if we understand and speak the language perfectly. Mhmm. It's really very difficult, and I think it takes a lot of effort to to learn that way. And I, you know, yeah, I have huge sympathy for for immigrants and do whatever I can to support them in any way I can.

Raphael Harry [00:54:06]:
That's right. So, one big part of your journalism is reporting on climate change. Mhmm. So why is that so important to you?

Maurice Tamman [00:54:19]:
Well, most of my career, I didn't cover climate change. My last two projects, So I should let me just explain a little bit about my job Yeah. Because it'll give some context here. So, for most of the last 15, 20 years, I have worked in positions where I do project work, which means to say that I spend a fair amount of time on stories, investigating, do do doing data analysis, reporting, writing. I don't write every day. In fact, I don't write every month. And over the course of my career, you know, I've done big stories on banking. I've done big stories on, health care and and Medicare.

Maurice Tamman [00:55:07]:
I've done big stories on crime and punishment and people who are wrongly convicted and, you know, I don't like to be reporting and writing on the same subject for an extremely long period of time. This is probably been the longest period I have stayed on the same subject in part because I think it's a particularly important subject. Not just for regionally but globally. So I I guess my last project before the most recent one was, I had talked to some people who had suggested that there was evidence that fisheries around the world were migrating north as the oceans were warming up. So how do you gauge that? I mean fish swim everywhere. Right? You know, it's not like us who when we move we have to get a moving van and load it up and move. Fish just go wherever the water is suitable for them and they can get eat enough food. Yes.

Maurice Tamman [00:56:10]:
And so that project evolved into something called ocean shock which was a description of how the oceans themselves are being impacted by climate change. That was my first, venture into science reporting. It's my first attempt at, climate change reporting. It was really well received, and my boss asked me to continue, which led to the the late most recent project which was an examination of who, basically it was 6 profiles, in-depth profiles of some of the most influential climate scientists in the world. And and when I say in-depth, I spent months over to over time, months with all of them on holiday, at work, at you know, researching. I can't tell you how many once the pandemic hit, how many how much time I spent on Skype and Teams and Zoom and such talking with these folks. But the idea was that we wanted to tell the story of the scientists, not just the science. To give a context, why are these people doing what they're doing? What are the what motivates them when it seems so dire and the prospects of finding a solution so unlikely? Why do they continue? And and they were all incredibly optimistic, that ultimately we will find a solution to our man made problem of climate change.

Maurice Tamman [00:57:42]:
So, whether I do another climate change story remains to be seen, but maybe.

Raphael Harry [00:57:50]:
Well, I'm happy that they're optimistic because, man, it's, it's tough. When it comes to climate change, because was it, 2019 or 28 no. 18? I think it was 2018. I still had my former podcast partner. Yeah. It was 2018. So, New York Magazine had a climate change event at New York Times. And, the the other gentleman who I said school in Kano, he he runs he's the cofounder of the New York, well, was formerly well, it's still the New York supply chain meetup, and it's expanded to the worldwide supply chain meetup.

Maurice Tamman [00:58:36]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:58:37]:
So they they used to meet on they they started from just a meetup group, and now it's like a big group of, people into supply chain around the world. And it's, sustainable business is, one of the big topics, and climate change also gets to be discussed there. He just put this posted this event, like, hey. You know? They they gone. This is something that affects us being supply professionals because I used to do handle supply chain in the military. Mhmm. So I was like, oh, let me go check it out. And I went there, man, it was the the the the was all the the, I've forgotten his name, the gentleman who was the first person.

Raphael Harry [00:59:17]:
He's credited with being the first person to, report on climate change, address congress on climate change. So it's way over 30 years ago. And when he first brought it up, he was he was talking about how, there was bipartisan support. It was like the golden age, and it it just seemed like a a different universe he was talking about back then. And I was like, wait. What? All of this was happening. And it just seemed like, yeah. Everything could have been solved.

Raphael Harry [00:59:48]:
But and then it started changing all of a sudden. And one of the the most it it was at that event that I began to realize that even as a kid in Nigeria, they had been talking about climate change without saying climate change because one of the languages that, one one word that picked up pretty early was desertification.

Maurice Tamman [01:00:13]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:00:14]:
And almost every regime because I I grew up under the military. Every military administration always talked about, allocating funds to fight against the, the the the desertification of some northern states. It's hard that it's encroaching. And I was like, woah. Sahara Desert. What? And, you know, and it was that was also what led to one of the buyers that I had, my my removal of one of the buyers that I had because we used to always assume that all Northerners were dressed and modestly like covering their bodies because of Sharia law. Mhmm. And then it was later I found out, due to the wind blowing sands Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:00:59]:
That, yeah, you need to cover your body. Mhmm. Otherwise, you can get paralyzed from the sands hitting you.

Maurice Tamman [01:01:04]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:01:05]:
So it's excuse me. It's not a matter of, I have a choice. I wanna, you expose your body. Yeah. Mhmm. You you you just damaging yourself. I was like, oh, okay.

Maurice Tamman [01:01:14]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:01:15]:
Well, I can't I can't get in the south. It's different, but up there. And then I started hearing about pollutions in in, my part of the country, and then, I read the magazine once, and then they were talking about, acid rain. And I was like, wait. What? Acid rain? And then they mentioned Niger Delta. I was like, what? You mean I've been in acid rain all this time? Wait. What? But then I still didn't know it was climate change. You know? I didn't even realize all that was added into the the climate change until, you know, and was at this conference that when they they started presenting pictures of different parts of the world and they showed some parts of, they showed a village in Mali.

Raphael Harry [01:01:57]:
Yeah. It was a village in Mali from the sixties, and they showed the desert, Sahara Desert. And then they showed in, that same village in 2015. That was literally over the village. Mhmm. And I was like, wow. This is what they talk about You know, in Nigeria, what they've been trying to prevent. Well, as kids, we've been hearing this stuff, but I can I can assure you all the people in my generation who had that fighting desertification, they didn't it still doesn't apply? They don't it doesn't apply to them.

Raphael Harry [01:02:27]:
They went into, oh, we've been fighting climate change. Or we've been trying to it doesn't add up when you talk talk to them today that this is what they've been trying to do then because it's we we just saw it as something that, was used to steal funds. You know, for it was just corruption. So, ah, these people landed.

Maurice Tamman [01:02:46]:
Well, I mean, it's a bit like the frog in the boiling water, isn't it? I mean, you know, you put the frog in the water when the water's cool and you turn on the stove and then the frog never realized it's cooking. Exactly. And so, you know, you grow up and every year it gets incrementally warmer and drier or whatever the circumstances are. It's really difficult as humans because of the way, you know, our lifespan to really appreciate how things have fundamentally changed. It takes pictures, as you suggested, to really illustrate what's going on, whether it's satellite images of lakes in Iran, for example, or it's, you know, villages that have been overrun by sand sand from the desert.

Raphael Harry [01:03:32]:
To, Lake Chad.

Maurice Tamman [01:03:34]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:03:35]:
There was I was at an event also with my, people from Niger Delta and there was this big argument about, you know, all the terrorist groups and all the others. And I was like, you don't realize that since Lake Charles started drying up, insecurity started increasing.

Maurice Tamman [01:03:54]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:03:55]:
So it's another reason why when the Pentagon released that report in 20 or the 2015 or 2016 about the biggest threats to security being climate change, I I agreed. I was like, yes. There's it's climate change because I've I've not seen a single place that's affected by climate change where you have security where where it's it's, security is stable. Mhmm. In the world. It's it's not but I I I think that's something but people frown at me at the conference when I said that because I was there were it wasn't what they were expecting because I think they were expecting me to attack the religion that wasn't the dominant religion in our part of the country. And I was like, I don't know. It's because we we we also as soon as the rain, the rains have been increasing in our part because we have the rivers.

Raphael Harry [01:04:45]:
And as soon as the rains increase, what happens? We're all flooded. Mhmm. And I was like, in our records, what happened? Do we have records of this amount of rainfall? Why why are we getting so much flooding? Now everybody is

Maurice Tamman [01:04:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's one of the reasons why, the term global warming has kind of fallen out of favor. I mean, it's a practical matter. Yes. The planet is getting warmer, but that has different effects in different parts of the world. Mhmm. You know, certainly if you were to look at the the northern and southern extremes of the planet, you're going to see warmer you know, you're gonna see what the warm is doing.

Maurice Tamman [01:05:23]:
The ice there's less ice, there's less permafrost, all those kinds of things. But in some places of the world there's more rain. Yeah. In other places of the world on the on the coastal areas you get more flooding because the sea levels are rising. In other places it's dry. In the interior of some parts, some continents you're gonna get more dry weather. So it manifests itself in very in different ways. The the weather is gonna become more volatile.

Maurice Tamman [01:05:50]:
The oceans the ocean currents are gonna stop moving as quickly. And all of those have knock on effects that we can that scientists probably many scientists can reasonably predict what's gonna happen, some of which have already started to come to be. Mhmm. But it's tough, you know. If I look up and it's raining every day, some parts of the world are actually cooler. If you look Oh, yeah. If you look at a map of the planet, for example, and look at the the mean the the temperature anomalies, that is that it's below or above some type of average over the course of time, you will see a spot south on the ocean south of Greenland that is cooler and the rest of the world is hotter. Mhmm.

Maurice Tamman [01:06:38]:
You know? Well, you know, my understanding is that that that part of that is that there's a runoff from the glaciers from Greenland, which is putting fresh water into the oceans, which is cooler than the ocean itself. That water sits on the surface and is cooling the water. Now you would think because it's cooler that would be an in that would be refuting the fact that climate change and global warming when in fact what you have is an effect from one part affecting another part that illustrates why that it's it's more than just warming. It's it's climate chaos at times. It's it's it's things happening in ways that have not happened for a very long period of time and very quickly and counterintuitively sometimes.

Raphael Harry [01:07:33]:
So do do you ever get feedback to your stories when when you when you put out, your projects? Mhmm. When you put out projects. So, like, climate change with the way it's been so politicized over Australia in America. Mhmm. Since you've put out this project, have people been like, oh, you're trying to put this agenda? You're trying to sell it up? Do people ever

Maurice Tamman [01:07:57]:
I mean, you always get some of that, but, honestly, in the last one, there were it was minimal. Okay. And and, you know, if you read the stories, I think they're balanced and and fair. You know, I don't try to I don't try to pretend that, climate change is not real, because it clearly is. But there are reasonable reasonable people can disagree on what to do about it. Mhmm. Reasonable people can disagree on the extent that the future will change, within a range of possibilities. What isn't reasonable in my opinion is to assume that the planet is somehow just going through a natural cycle because there is virtually no evidence of that.

Maurice Tamman [01:08:51]:
Oh, yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:08:53]:
Yep. I have lost someone because of that. Anytime I post the climate change story, it's like, it's just one of those things, man. Stop worrying about that.

Maurice Tamman [01:09:05]:
Well, you know, it's not I don't worry about me. I worry about my children and my children's children and, you know, your children and your children's children and and what kind of world are they gonna live in? Yeah. You know? I mean, think about your relatives in in Nigeria. You know, I I read somewhere someone suggested, you know, as long as you live on a line, a parallel line north of Paris to to Munich or Berlin or whatever it was, that, you know, you're gonna be fine. In other words Wow. The planet is gonna be eminently livable in the northern and southern far northern and far southern hemispheres, but below there you're gonna face issues and there's there's some truth to that that, you know, the client you know, what are you gonna do when ag when you can't grow crops anymore and feed your population? Below that line, is

Raphael Harry [01:09:58]:
that like the majority of the population?

Maurice Tamman [01:10:01]:
Probably. I I I don't know where the line really is, but the the point though is that there's a great there's a huge swath of the planet Yep. That is going to become increasingly difficult to live, and that's gonna result in migrations.

Raphael Harry [01:10:16]:
Mhmm.

Maurice Tamman [01:10:17]:
Some of it is not gonna be welcome. I mean we only have to look to Europe to see what's happened in response to the the migrations, the migrants coming from North Africa and from Syria. Yeah. To know that, you know, people don't necessarily welcome foreigners stepping onto into their country and asking for help. You know? And that can only get worse as climate change gets worse. Wow.

Raphael Harry [01:10:50]:
That's true. True all the way. But, yeah, that's that's my main reason for worrying about climate change is not really for me. It's for the next generation. Mhmm. Yeah. So in covering these projects and, you know, well, before okay. I will I postpone this question because you'd do your journalism, but there's still other things that you do and let me see.

Raphael Harry [01:11:21]:
So trust our goal first. Alright. So you also like you said, you you don't do a lot of writings for your projects nowadays but there's something that you do a lot of writing on which you've put out there. So, but it's not in a traditional form yet but it's on your website. Mhmm. So, do we call it an ebook without calling it an ebook?

Maurice Tamman [01:11:49]:
You know what it is. It it it's it it was it's a hobby. And, you know, I once had it my early early in my career as a journalist, I was told by a an editor who I have the utmost respect for that, that, you know, a writer writes to be read. Mhmm. And if you wanna call yourself a writer and and and you don't let anyone read it, that's like masturbation. Right? It's like, you know, yeah, it's it's it's okay and it's fun, but, you know, there's there's a greater purpose to life than masturbation. So I, you know, I I had been working on this this idea for for some time and decided, you know, it's not finished. The pandemic was going on.

Maurice Tamman [01:12:42]:
I didn't know when I was gonna finish it. And I thought, well, you know, let me just put it out there and and see and just see, you know, without any expectations or anything. It's just it was sitting there on my computer, and I decided to make it just put it on and see if anyone read it. A few people did. I don't know if it's very good, but, you know, to the extent that I like to call myself a writer, I felt that this was an experiment, that I could I could just do and, you know, and that's what I did. Just put it out there.

Raphael Harry [01:13:19]:
I I think you're a writer. I see you as a writer. I I enjoyed reading it. I haven't read it all the way, but I have to. And I was I was I tried to encourage me. I was like, because I have stuff that I've written down. I'm like, ah. But but now I realize that mine is like it's more like it's more of like my masturbation.

Raphael Harry [01:13:39]:
You know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm encouraged now to share mine. Yeah. Absolutely. Glad you said that. I was like, wow. That's, you know, that's me.

Raphael Harry [01:13:55]:
My wife's gonna laugh at this one. And I have, I have a good friend who's, my former English professor, and he yeah. He is always like, put it out there, man. Put it out. Just write, you know, put it out there. And I was like, yeah. I don't know. I've done now now now now don't worry.

Raphael Harry [01:14:18]:
I'll get to it. I'll get to it. And then I'll write, like, 5 paragraphs, and then I'm like, no. No. No. No. No. I don't like the ending.

Raphael Harry [01:14:25]:
Mhmm. I wanna change something. I'll I'll come back to it in 2 years have passed. Yeah. So you're also a sailor. Mhmm. And how how did you come about that?

Maurice Tamman [01:14:41]:
So, we visited when I when I was a kid, there was a a Lebanese family that we had know that my father had known when he was a kid in Khartoum, and some of those relatives also lived in Kanu. Mhmm. It was and that family invited us to spend the summer with them in upstate New York, in a little town called Gloversville. And, this was 1976. It was the bicentennial year. And, so we spent the summer in in in in Gloversville, and there was a day camp, such as an American concept. But

Raphael Harry [01:15:22]:
Yeah. So it was a day camp.

Maurice Tamman [01:15:23]:
Yeah. So we would go to this camp every day, in the summertime, and I had never experienced anything like this, but they had a little sunfish there. And, that's where I first sailed. And the moment I got on that, I thought it was the coolest thing that you could just sit in on a on a boat with a piece of, you know, because obviously, I mean I grew up in canoe and then, you know, there's no water in canoe. There's no lakes. I mean there was a dam we used to visit every now and then, but we couldn't touch the water because we get bellhartsia so we couldn't go swimming or anything. I mean, you know, water is dangerous. Standing water in Africa is dangerous.

Maurice Tamman [01:16:02]:
You gotta be careful. Right? But here in Gloversville, New York there was this little sailboat and I could go out by myself and the wind would push me along and I could steer it, and I thought that was pretty magical. And that was how I got turned on to sailing. And, you know, episodically over the next few years, I would find my way onto a boat and go again, but, you know, then I started raising a family and, you know, I gave up all things that weren't related to making money and and raising a family. And I guess about 20 years ago now, 20 maybe even a little longer back, I said I I now I want I I'm in a position now. I can afford to buy a boat and start sailing more regularly and and I've been doing it ever since. I've been living on a on my boat now since 2009. The winter of 2009.

Maurice Tamman [01:17:00]:
Now this winter, I'm not on the boat because I was getting some repairs done. But, for most of the last 12 years, I have been living on the boat in the New York area.

Raphael Harry [01:17:12]:
And the name of your boat? Zonora. Zonora. How how did that come about? Well, first before I get

Maurice Tamman [01:17:18]:
to that, let me tell you a story about that. So this is a this was a big boat for me. I mean, it was going it's a 53 foot boat and I was, you know, I wanted something bigger, something that could take me further. And I was on a 36 boat foot boat at the time. And I was looking around and I couldn't decide, do I really want to do this? It was a big decision. And, you know, I was I had pretty much decided against it. And a friend of mine from Florida because the boat was in Florida at the time. And I'd gone down.

Maurice Tamman [01:17:54]:
I'd looked at the boat. I'd, you know, I was really hemming and hawing about what to do. And, you know, as some people are want to do, I sat down with a bottle of rum and I started to figure out whether I wanted to do this. And I got an email or a text message, I don't remember now, from a friend of mine, an old sailor mate from Florida. And in it, he had a link to Harry Belafonte's song Jump in the Line. Right? Mhmm. And if you if you recall that song Jump in the Line, he says, hey, senora. Right? But he doesn't pronounce it like senora.

Maurice Tamman [01:18:30]:
His Spanish is a little crooked and he says, hay zenora.

Raphael Harry [01:18:34]:
Yeah. Right?

Maurice Tamman [01:18:35]:
If you listen to well, at least it sounded that way to me after a few shots of rum. And so I played it over and over again until the bottle was done and I was thoroughly wasted. And I decided I I if there's a song, you know, if if my boat already has a song for her then clearly I should own this boat. And that's how I made the decision to buy her over that bottle of rum and listening to Harry Belafonte about 20 times that night singing Hey, Zenora in his in his terrible Spanish. Anyway, so the name itself, comes from the previous owner. So they're from, the Cornwall area of of England. The boat was they used to sail it around the Caribbean and go back home Yeah. To Cornwall.

Maurice Tamman [01:19:31]:
And so they are long time sailors. They they they were older now, and they came from a village called Zenor. Zenor, excuse me. Zenor. And there's a legend in Zenor that the the there was a priest, who worked at this church that had a wonderful choir, and it was right on the just above the rocks on the ocean. And the choir was so good that the mermaids would come down, and they would climb out of the water and sit on the rocks and listen to the choir sing. And one day the priest goes down to talk to them, and he was never heard of again. Oh, honey.

Maurice Tamman [01:20:14]:
He had fallen in love with one of the mermaids and disappeared into the ocean, and you know. So they named their first boat the Maid of Zeno of Zeno. Zeno. Excuse me. And Zeno. Zen Zeno. Yeah. And so their second boat they bought, they wanted to keep the same theme going, but this was a really fast boat, so they called her the witch of Zenor or Zenor.

Maurice Tamman [01:20:41]:
Zenor. Yeah. And so their 3rd boat, that boat was too big for them. They decided they needed to make it a little smaller, believe it or not. They came down to my boat, but they wanted to keep, the name going. And, so, in the village, a diminutive name for girls is, Zonora. And so they decided, since they were going to a smaller boat, Sonora would be a good name. Now changing the name of a boat is fraught if you have any superstitions whatsoever.

Maurice Tamman [01:21:19]:
And you'll forgive me as a as a atheist I should be above these things Yeah. But I'm probably the most superstitious person you you'll ever meet. And in order to change the name of a boat, it requires, you know there there are all kinds of rituals that people suggest, you know, everything from toasting the various gods of the depths to, there are some traditions that say you have to have a virgin urinate on the bow of the boat. Oh my goodness. Right? Well, I couldn't find a virgin, so I decided that, you know, no no no. I'm not gonna change the name. And I love the story about the mermaids and

Raphael Harry [01:21:57]:
I love that story too.

Maurice Tamman [01:21:59]:
So I said, you know, I'm not gonna change. And I've never actually, you know, my the boat before that I didn't change. That boat's name was Calliope or Calliope. Calliope was one of the muse of epic poetry, right, from from the Greek tradition of mythology. So, you know, as a writer I thought the idea of having a boat named after a muse and a poet seemed appropriate to me, so I kept it. And in the case of Zenora you know, of course, these are simply rationalizations so I don't have to deal with the, with the superstitious issues that I was clearly gonna face if I was gonna change the name.

Raphael Harry [01:22:40]:
You know what? I've come for the new theory. Being that you grew up, where you you you you had a good number of years in Kano, and then you ended up being a sailor, believing of the, aquatic, superstitions. I I think you're an Ijoman. You just didn't know it. Yeah. You're an Ijoman because you you you you take to water, you take to sailing, and the mermaid, as soon as you brought that mermaid story, I was like, yep. That's an hijo man right there. That's the yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:23:12]:
That that sounds that's yeah. Too many mermaid stories I've heard about from being with, yeah, when I go by, Google Road with the for the Ijo people. Mhmm. You know, again, you know, I'm in a Nijoa village. I just go into the little shanties and my god. Shots for all the uncles and the the the papas here and, man, come come see that. Let let me tell you something. When I was fishing 20 years ago, all these mermaids I saw, like, man, who who who else saw these mermaids with you? I was the only one on the river, like, 2 AM in the morning.

Raphael Harry [01:23:43]:
I was like, well, you know, give them a shout out to

Maurice Tamman [01:23:45]:
you. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:23:51]:
That's beautiful. So, yeah. Yeah. We've we've, we've adopted you as an Ijama now.

Maurice Tamman [01:23:59]:
Thank you very much. I'm honored really.

Raphael Harry [01:24:02]:
So, to start, before I, I'm getting ready to wrap up, but I gotta ask some fun questions. Okay. Final questions. So, so this will be the final two questions or well, there'll be 3 questions, but first one will be food. Where would you say your heart belongs to when it comes to favorite food or favorite cuisine?

Maurice Tamman [01:24:27]:
Almost a Middle Eastern food for sure. I mean, there is a dish that, my grandmother made, called mollachia, and it is, jute leaves, dry well, jute leaves, sometimes called Jew's marrow. But it's it's the peasant food of much of the Middle East from Lebanon, Egypt, you know, parts of that part of the world. Yeah. And my grandmother taught me how to cook it and I cooked it for all my children. Right. And they're constantly asking me to cook it for them. Oh, great.

Maurice Tamman [01:25:05]:
And I continue to cook it and great quantities in the winter too and then I freeze it. But in the summertime, not so much. But, yeah, for sure I think that that's where my food now now a little seray. You know that that stuff, those those beef sticks they would put around the fires with the hot peanut. In Carno they used to have this dish where you know we'd have a fire pit.

Raphael Harry [01:25:29]:
Oh like shuya.

Maurice Tamman [01:25:30]:
Yeah. Is that how you say it? Shuya. Yeah. Shuya. And it's it's a peanut chili powder they put on the beef and they Yeah. Put it around the fire. I have on occasion made that. That's delicious too.

Maurice Tamman [01:25:43]:
So that's my favorite dish. Did you

Raphael Harry [01:25:44]:
do the flat meat or

Maurice Tamman [01:25:46]:
you do? Yeah. The flat meat. Okay.

Raphael Harry [01:25:47]:
The flat meat.

Maurice Tamman [01:25:47]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:25:48]:
I haven't had the flat meat in ages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Music. So 3 favorite artists from each place you've called home or

Maurice Tamman [01:26:00]:
Oh, well, that's gonna be tough. But,

Raphael Harry [01:26:04]:
or you can just go with New York.

Maurice Tamman [01:26:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. I mean, it it's so, Elvis Costello. From my youth in in in in the UK, I mean, I guess I evolved from the Sex Pistols and Pill to more sophisticated new wave music, and Elvis has always had a special place in my heart. So he would be on my list.

Maurice Tamman [01:26:31]:
Puccini. In my early twenties, I fell in love with Italian opera. And I continue to love Italian opera, even though I don't understand a single word of Italian other than busta. But there's something about the language itself that's so, emotive, which is an interesting language too because we talked about this about Nigeria not having one language. Well, Italy didn't have one language for a long time. There were dialects. Every region had its own dialect and some of them were very different from one another. And it wasn't until unification, which was not that long ago

Raphael Harry [01:27:14]:
Mhmm.

Maurice Tamman [01:27:15]:
You know, I I wish I had the dates in front of me, where they started to come up with a unified idea of what the language was. But anyway, that's an aside. I I I I love Italian opera, and in particular I love Italian opera too. Puccini. And I don't I'm not gonna say a third one, but I was, you know, I was on my phone the other day and I was trying to pick what music I was gonna listen to when I went for my run. And I got the suggestion, you know you know, your music from 2020, which is what I've played on this app Yeah. For all of 2020, the best of and I came to realize that I have stopped listening to pop music and I'm listening to classical music and folk music. And my taste in music has somehow shifted over the years now where I find myself listening to music that's, like, older than I am.

Maurice Tamman [01:28:18]:
Much older than I am, sometimes 100 of years older than I am. And I'm not sure what that says about me except that it's changed. So, anyway, that's my 3.

Raphael Harry [01:28:31]:
What what you said about Italy reminded me of, the Italian my my friend whose wife is from Mofetta. And, when she was breaking down Italian dialects and the differences, and I was like, this is a whole we need to do an episode of Charleston. Right?

Maurice Tamman [01:28:49]:
Well, I mean yeah. And we could talk about the difference between talking in London and talking in Glasgow, for example. You know? There's a big difference on the British Isles as well.

Raphael Harry [01:29:00]:
I I need to get my I'm I'm trying to do an episode with my English, my my English cousin and my Scottish cousins because I have cousins in,

Maurice Tamman [01:29:08]:
that's for Yeah. That would be really wonderful because

Raphael Harry [01:29:10]:
Yeah. But they're they're on 2 different wavelengths, so they don't I don't even know if they see eye to eye. But Okay. That would be fun.

Maurice Tamman [01:29:19]:
Well, it's okay because they could argue with one another and nobody would understand, really. It would just be entertaining to listen to the different voices.

Raphael Harry [01:29:27]:
I'll be here like, yes. I'm the host.

Maurice Tamman [01:29:29]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:29:30]:
And I was born in Nigeria and

Maurice Tamman [01:29:31]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:29:32]:
I'm new.

Maurice Tamman [01:29:32]:
And then you could just simply translate for everybody and make it easier for them.

Raphael Harry [01:29:37]:
That's a good idea. I've I've I've I've still try to put it to work. Alright. So thank you for giving me your time.

Maurice Tamman [01:29:45]:
Thank you.

Raphael Harry [01:29:46]:
And final question that I like to give every guest is what would you like to leave the audience with? Could be, you know, a a a word from, it could be a sentence from a book you've read, could be from one of your projects, could be, from one of your favorite songs, could be anything. You're freestyling, so it's just you.

Maurice Tamman [01:30:06]:
So, you know, we talked about Elvis Costello. Yeah. And, on his first album, my aim is, it was my aim is true, and it comes from the song Allison. And, I have always held those four words close to me that, you know, we may fail. In fact, we often fail. In fact, maybe arguably we fail more often than we succeed.

Raphael Harry [01:30:35]:
True.

Maurice Tamman [01:30:35]:
Right? And there's there's not wrong with that. Nothing. I agree. But what's wrong is if your aim is not true. You're you know, that my aim is true. What I achieve what I attempt to achieve is true. I may miss my target sometimes, but I'm always my aim is to achieve something positive and decent. And I think that, you know, it served me well.

Maurice Tamman [01:31:05]:
You know?

Raphael Harry [01:31:08]:
I love that. I love that. So as my people say, Mbana, a game for coming on the podcast. And, if people wanna reach out to you, where can they do that or how can they do that?

Maurice Tamman [01:31:26]:
I'm on Twitter. Instagram. Actually, Twitter better because I tend to keep my Instagram private. But yeah. Yeah. Twitter is the best way

Raphael Harry [01:31:33]:
for me. Okay. So I'll put the Twitter link Mhmm. In the show notes. And, yes, you'll get great stories. It's a great follow. And, yeah, Morris is like he's he's an awesome person to just follow. Except when it comes to Arsenal, I think you gotta throw the Arsenal bullet.

Maurice Tamman [01:31:53]:
Well, I'm glad you're enjoying it this year.

Raphael Harry [01:31:56]:
I was I was that that that Arsenal fans did a whole lot of trash talking to me back in the Nigerian days. I'll never let that go. So to everyone listening, thank you all for, for listening. Make sure you come back for the next episode next week and keep the love coming in, sharing, stay positive. Thank you all

Maurice Tamman [01:32:17]:
for the privilege of your company. Thank you for having

Raphael Harry [01:32:24]:
me. Thanks for listening to White Label American. If you enjoy the show, we'll appreciate if you rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcast from. If you have any questions, comments, or have someone who will be a good guest on the show or you want to be on the show, show, send us a message at white labelamerican@gmail.com. And make sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at white label American. Thank you