The Ugly Truth About Female Genital Mutilation

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Welcome.

We're an award winning show d dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights.

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I'm Shelly.

And I'm Kathy.

Our show takes on some tough topics sometimes, but our mission is to educate, empower and create awareness to further the progress and fair treatment of women.

What we have today is a tough issue that needs to be discussed.

It may be a difficult one for some listeners, so we want to give fair warning.

Did you know that 230 million girls and women across the United States and around the world have been forced into female genital mutilation?

Also called fgm.

This is the practice of removing or cutting the labia and clitoris for non medical reasons.

It's an extremely painful and emotionally damaging practice that leaves a woman without the ability to experience pleasure during intercourse.

It's primarily done as a religious practice.

Some cultures believe it's a way to preserve virginity, enhance male sexual pleasure, or improve female hygiene.

It leaves terrible emotional and physical scars.

It can cause infection, and the vagina and urethra can close over, leaving only a small opening leading to painful intercourse or an incision needed if a woman gives birth.

Who could imagine that this horrific practice is even going on, especially in North America in the 21st century?

Stop the Cut now is an organization on a mission to eradicate this terrible practice.

Dr.

Maria Viola Sanchez is the CEO and founder of this nonprofit.

They're committed to creating awareness worldwide and achieving a unified voice to eliminate this terrible practice.

Dr.

Sanchez is also president elect of the Ventura County Psychological association, which was named 2024's chapter of the year by the California Psychological association, among many other positions.

She's also on the board of trustees at Fielding Graduate university.

We have Dr.

Maria Viola Sanchez with us today to educate us.

Welcome, Maria.

Thank you so much for being on the show.

Shelley.

What a marvelous introduction.

My goodness.

Thank you for encapsulating it so well.

Well, thank you, Maria.

Yeah, I want people to really stop, give pause and think.

Because when I first heard about this, I was shocked.

Yes.

And what's interesting about it, I was just in Washington, D.C.

last week.

I do a lot of as much activism as I can in the United States and people always say to me, first of all, when they hear about it, they're like, what?

And then if we want, we can go into some of the details of.

Of it, because there are four different types of procedures that fall under the umbrella of female genital mutilation, or FGM, as you said.

And when I mentioned that there's 230 million, as you did in the introduction, in the world, they're like, what?

And I said, yes, this is an epidemic.

And then I said, and then, oh, by the way, there's over 500,000 women in the United States of America.

And they're like, now it's like, yes, it does.

And what's unfortunate is that not only is it not going away, the UNICEF released numbers and they.

The number that we had been using since 2016 was 200 million, and they revised that to 230 million, as you just said.

God, that's just unbelievable.

It is unbelievable.

Yeah, it's shocking.

It is shocking.

And what's really the reason behind my foundation is that I have been aware of female genital mutilation.

Actually, I had a program on NPR and a guest came on to talk about it.

And this was in the late 90s, and that was the first I learned of it.

So it's always been in the background of my mind.

And UNICEF and the United nations and the World Health Organization, it's on their radar.

And everyone says, oh, it's a terrible thing.

And February 6th every year is the International Day of the Eradication of Female Genital Mutilation at the United Nations.

I've attended it in person several times.

This was pre Covid, and I actually went there on February 6, 2020, right before we got into trouble with the pandemic.

There was less than 100 people in the room.

And it's an international day.

And I got so upset that all you do is talk about it.

Then you give one day a year to say how terrible it is, and then you go on about your business.

So that is what motivated me to found Stop the cut now.

Because I kept saying I assumed that these deep pocketed international organizations would be doing something about it, and it appears that they're not.

First of all, Maria, I just.

Lip service.

Oh, yeah.

Unbelievable.

You know, if this happened to men, it'd be an act of war.

It would be.

Yeah, it would.

Oh, Maria, I want to commend you for founding this organization.

I had not heard about that International Day in February either.

So there's not enough awareness?

No, there's.

And that's.

And I'll tell you, quite honestly, Shelly and Kathy, a lot of the problem is authentic ignorance, because it's not a part of a conversation in general that we would have.

But the other thing is, when we do have the conversation, which we're having now, it makes people uncomfortable.

And when you're talking about cutting the genitals, they perform.

The average age is from 6 months to 15 years old.

That's the range in general.

And people wince.

And they, you know, they.

I spoke to the 58 district of attorneys in the state of California two years ago.

They wanted to know more about it because really, it's violence against women.

It's domestic violence.

It's, you know, gender, whatever you want to say, discrimination.

And I'm in this room with seasoned law enforcement individuals, and my PowerPoint is animated, and so is the website, because it's so uncomfortable.

I'm not showing anatomically correct pictures.

And they were wincing, looking down, crossing their legs.

You could see how uncomfortable they were.

And these are people who try all kinds of heinous, atrocious crimes in the state of California.

And that just showed me that it doesn't matter who's listening.

If you have a heart, you care.

Yeah.

You know, this is a human rights violation.

There's no other way to describe it.

100% correct.

And there's no place for it ever.

And in the 21st century, it's unbelievable.

And the fact that it's not being given the kind of priority that it should, it shows women and girls are not being given the priority that they deserve.

And I'm so, so thankful your organization is creating this awareness.

I wanted to talk briefly a bit about your background.

I see you're a psychologist.

You said you've been in the media.

Could you kind of talk about a little bit about that?

I mean, certainly you being in the media, you know how to harness that and get people's attention, which is so important.

Yes.

Thank you.

So I have been a radio talk show host for almost 30 years, which will tell you how old I am.

And I.

My programs were lifestyle, health, parenting, relationships.

It was very, very little political.

And if it was political, I didn't care what side of the fence you were on, just as long as you were intelligent, articulate, respectful.

And then when syndication came out and the budget started shrinking for local markets, including in Los Angeles, that's kind of when I went to other arenas and I decided to pursue my graduate education, because psychology, as much as other industries might, doesn't really have ageism built into it.

People appreciate that you've lived and that you have some wisdom and that you might have some perspective.

So I got my master's in clinical psychology, and then I got my master's in media psychology, and then I got my PhD in psychology with an emphasis on media psychology.

And my dissertation was about the eradication of female genital mutilation.

So it's been a long journey, but a rewarding one.

And what my dissertation proved was it doesn't take a lot.

It really just takes awareness and education.

It does, and it needs to be talked about.

And I want to commend you again.

Bravo, Maria.

We have to bring this out, out of the shadows.

People need to know, even if they get uncomfortable, and the fact they're getting uncomfortable, they got to know it's wrong.

Well, studying it, so having it on my radar.

And you read about it?

Not often, because it's a secret and it goes underground.

I was at the United nations for an event, and the woman who was part of the Health Ministry of Sierra Leone, which is in Africa, she was speaking.

And I went specifically because I wanted to talk to her about female genital mutilation.

That wasn't the topic of her conversation.

She was trying to solicit funds for the Health Department in Sierra Leone.

And I went up afterwards and I said to her, could you tell me about female genital mutilation in your country?

And she acted as if I had slapped her across the face.

She recoiled.

She moved away from me.

And her handlers surrounded me, men and said, what is it that you just asked her?

And I repeated my sentence.

And the man said to me, oh, we don't do that.

And I said, that's not what the United nations does.

You have a cut rate that's 85 to 91% cut rate, meaning how many of the girls are cut and their culture.

And he said, oh, no, we don't do that.

And I said, really?

He goes, if a girl at the age of 18 asks for it to be performed, then we will accommodate her request.

And so that's the disinformation that you get.

So I contacted the United nations afterwards, and I said, I want to tell you this is a conversation that I had at the event that you just hosted.

And they said, oh, yeah, they lie all the time.

No one wants to admit it, you.

Know, and denial is deadly.

Right?

And that's what they're doing.

They would rather put it under the rug.

And how is this any different than domestic abuse, which they've done the same kind of thing for Years and years and years too.

I can't even imagine taking a six month old infant and doing this to the child.

I mean, how is that not child abuse?

Well, and the worst of it is it's done in unsanitary conditions.

It's usually done in the bush on dirt.

It is done with items that are not sanitized like scissors and razor blades and shards of glass.

It is barbaric beyond.

And there's no anesthesia.

Of course, the younger they are, the less they remember, the older.

I've spoken with survivors that had it done on them when they were 7, 8, 12, they pass out from the pain, so they don't remember the exact whole part of it.

But then the worst of it is it's the women that perpetuate it on the girls.

So one survivor I spoke with, her mother was a part of the four people.

They hold them down each limb and spread their legs.

Sometimes someone has to sit on the child's chest.

And she said, I looked over at my mother and I thought, aren't you the one that's supposed to protect me?

Aren't you the one that's supposed to keep me out of harm's way?

And she passed out.

She came to.

So the most severe form of it is type 3.

After they cut, they bind their ankles and their thighs together so that they can scarce with the healing, which closes up, as you mentioned, not only the vagina, but the urethra.

They leave an opening the size of the head of a Q tip from which they're supposed to urinate and menstruate.

And they also limit their liquids because they don't want them urinating because it hurts, because there's flesh wounds there.

And the mom brought her some soup and put a spoon in her mouth and she spit it right back at her mother and said, how dare you?

Yeah.

And their relationship was severed from that point forward.

That's so unbelievable.

You know, it's interesting, I knew that it was a few years back in Michigan.

There was a judge, there was a judge who basically overturned a federal ban on female genital mutilation based on the premise that it was states rights, it could not be a federal ban.

But what had brought this to his courtroom was a case in Michigan, some doctors that were doing this and I guess there were a couple of mothers who had tricked their seven year olds into thinking that they were going to Detroit for a girls trip and instead they had their genitals cut.

Oh my God.

And I remember when I first heard this, I'm like this is going on in Michigan.

Yes.

So federal legislation got passed in 1996 and then your judge is the one that reversed it.

And we in the community were then panicking because now there was no federal ban in the United States of America.

And fortunately, a lot of the activists got together and created legislation and it actually got signed by President Trump on January 1st 5th, the day before the insurrection.

So it didn't get any press that the federal law was back in place because of what happened at our Capitol the next day.

But there are still nine states and the District of Columbia that do not have legislation outlying female genital mutilation.

You know, I think part of that would you say is because people don't know this goes on.

Probably because that's the lack of awareness.

The state of Washington didn't have legislation and people were bringing their daughters to the state of Washington to have it performed there.

And that's also illegal.

You're not supposed to bring a child across state lines to do that kind of thing.

But because there wasn't a law in the state of Washington, they were getting away with it.

So I worked with a coalition.

I testified four times to their assembly and Senate and their governor signed it into law in April of 2023, moving it from 10 to nine.

So when they got wind of it, they did something about it.

Now, I've testified to the District of Columbia twice.

They are still nowhere near passing legislation and they know about it.

They've been talking about it.

They pulled people into the room to testify.

So I don't know what their problem is, why they're dragging their feet.

There was in Kentucky, I know you mentioned in your introduction that it's primarily cultural, which is true, but there are right wing Christian segments that perform it too in the United States.

And this woman in her 30s in Kentucky went to her legislator and said, I need you to know that this was done to me, this is happening in our state.

And they rallied round and they created legislation and it passed.

And they call it Jenny's Law because the woman who came forward, that's her name.

So there has been progress, but for nine states and the District of Columbia to still not have it illegal is somewhat unconscionable and also unbelievable.

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Did you know that There are over 500,000 cases of genital mutilations of women and girls in the United States and 230 million around the world.

It's shocking.

This is happening in the 21st century.

Dr.

Maria Viola Sanchez is on a mission to stop this horrendous practice.

She's the founder of Stop the Cut now to rally support and get people around the world to eradicate this terrible practice that's often motivated by religious and cultural traditions.

Dr.

Sanchez says a lot of the problem is authentic ignorance because it's not a part of the conversation that we would have.

When we do have the conversation, it makes people uncomfortable to get all of this to change.

Dr.

Sanchez says it takes awareness and education.

The problem is genital mutilation is a dirty secret that goes underground where it can't be discussed.

No one wants to admit to the practice and they lie about it even happening.

There are still nine states in the District of Columbia in the United States that do not have laws banning female genital mutilation.

Think about that for a second.

It's just horrific.

Dr.

Sanchez's information and her mission are so important for everyone to know and to get involved.

Dr.

Sanchez, what is the reason this is done?

I know that religion, certain religions do not believe that women should experience sexual pleasure.

Correct.

And they want them to maintain their virginity.

Obviously this is going to discourage anybody wanting to have sexual intercourse.

Correct.

It would be a very painful experience.

Correct.

It is so the primary reason some people say religion, but nowhere does it say that in any religious.

It's not in the Bible, it's not in the Quran.

There are imams that think that it's religious.

But then there's an Iman in the United States who came from Sudan who has said no.

Muhammad said do no harm.

No.

Abraham said do not harm.

So they're evolved.

A lot of it honestly is just habit.

And I'm going to be a really vulnerable statement that I'm making here.

I ignorantly circumcised my sons when they were born because my dad was.

My brothers were.

My husband, their father was.

I didn't even think anything about it.

And if that's what I did as a Western woman who's educated and intelligent, that's one of the reasons it's still prevalent.

This is what we do.

Sure.

Well, I think with circumcision and we're told that that prevents infection and it's more hygienic.

But there are.

That is not true.

But yes, that's what we're told.

Is it really though?

It's not true.

The foreskin serves a lot of purposes and I have apologized to my sons and I even was published John Hopkins Press, they did a story on regrets of male circumcision.

So some people compare the two and there is no comparison because mine was done in a hospital with a local anesthetic by a physician, you know, whereas this is not.

But to your point about the case in Michigan, there were physicians that were.

They.

It's called medicalized that they were doing it the way we would perform surgery on any other part of our bodies.

Right.

I'm just looking online.

I see because being Canadian to see what's what it is here.

And I'm just reading that the government of Canada condemns FGM and other harmful practices that threaten the well being of women and girls and violate their human rights.

In 1997, Canada's Criminal Code was amended to clarify that FGM is a form of aggravated assault and that removing a child from Canada, for the purposes of mgm, is a criminal offense.

So that's kind of good to know.

You have a very great activist group in your country, and there's a woman, she's done a documentary on it.

It's called something like, Not My Daughter and Giselle Poitney, I believe her name is.

And she.

She.

I've interviewed her and I've seen her documentary twice.

And you should be really proud, because Canada is very progressive in that regard, and so is the state of California.

I mean, we passed our law in the state in 1996 after the feds did theirs, and it was enacted in 1997.

And I introduced legislation in the state of California because it's not good enough.

It's old.

There's loopholes.

There was a public health reporting that was never done.

And my bill passed through the Appropriations Committee unanimously and is now stuck in the Senate Appropriations Committee because there's a cost to it, because we're making the penalties stronger.

And they're saying incarceration then costs the state more to keep somebody there longer.

And in the meantime, we're costing people's lives.

I mean, emotionally, it's got to devastate.

Physically, I mean, I can't even imagine.

And the fact that this is being done to girls.

Yes.

I mean.

And they don't have the understanding.

I mean, I don't have the understanding as an adult woman, why on earth any of this would be allowed.

Why it's considered acceptable by certain groups of people.

To me, it looks like male domination.

There is a lot of that, Shelley.

It is patriarchal.

It is also, as you mentioned, a way to ensure that a girl is a virgin.

And countries that value that the dowry for their daughter is higher if the girl is cut.

And then the sad part is, is that if and when they do have intercourse, after they get married, they usually rupture and hemorrhage and have to go to the hospital because the penis isn't meant to fit into an opening that small.

No.

The pain.

Yeah.

And then the worst is that then the women don't want to have intercourse because it's painful.

Oh, sure.

So a husband ends up having a wife who doesn't want to engage.

It's a.

It's a lose, lose, lose for everybody.

No one would want to have painful intercourse.

No.

Thus, you know, out of duty and obligation, they acquiesce.

Um, but there are men who are against fgm, too, and they say, we want a woman who gets pleasure out of making love.

That's the whole point.

And it's like, yeah, so if, yeah, if you're in pain that you know, then what's the value in it?

Yeah.

So the good news is there are men getting involved because some men just accepted that this is a rite of passage and the tradition.

And then when they're also education and awareness made aware that this is really barbaric and it doesn't benefit anybody, they're like, yeah, why would we do that?

Why would I allow my daughter to be sedentary?

That.

So there is movement in that regard, but the numbers.

Not in terms of the numbers.

Sure.

Well, that's where awareness and what your organization is doing is so essential because it's reeducating people and it's bringing it out into the sunlight, which is where it needs to be.

You were talking about four types of fgm.

I'm reading some of the details on that.

It's absolutely disgusting.

Feel free to go into some of the gory details so people can really, really step back and say, yeah, no.

Sugar coating, because this is real.

Right.

So that was part of my legislation too, was that California's definition of female genital mutilation should align with the World Health Organization's definition, which they created in 1995 and then they fine tuned it again in 2007.

But part one is the partial or total removal of the clitoris.

Part two is the removal of that, the clitoris and then the labia minora.

And then part three is the one that's the most egregious.

So that's the narrowing of the vaginal orifice.

And then they bring together the cut skin from the labia minora and the labia majora.

And then that cut edge, they're stitched together and that's referred to as infibulation.

And then type 4 is any kind of procedure to the genitals.

And that's pricking, piercing, scraping, cauterizing, nicking.

And so some people are saying, well, type 4 isn't as bad as the others.

So how about if we just do type 4?

That conversation exists too.

And it's like, no, that is also mutilation.

You know what I would say to somebody like that?

Okay, you want to be the first one to stand up and volunteer for that?

Yeah, you know, you go first.

Yeah.

So there are organizations and that's the other thing that my foundation does, is so I'm involved not only with a network in the United States formally, but, but I have global, we call ourselves intactivists throughout the world where they're trying to make their mark globally, too.

So the United States, I mentioned, there's over half a million girls that have been cut.

That's true.

In the United Kingdom and the European Union, they each have about 500,000.

Kerr.

So I'm in touch with Paris and Dublin and London that they're trying to do that eradication on their level.

So that's the good news is we're collaborative.

Like, I don't have any problem if somebody's.

I have a friend, her organization works in Kenya.

I sit on the advisory board of a woman whose organization works in Liberia.

Like, you know, the more the merrier.

If we can move the needle at all.

Let's do it.

Let's work on this.

Yep.

So, like the organization in Liberia, she actually is in the United States.

But what she does is she sponsors girls.

She gives them tuition, uniforms, books, school supplies, menstrual pads, and has their family signed a legally binding document that they will not cut their daughter.

They have to go to a physician once a year to prove that they haven't been cut.

And these girls actually get to go through high school and they get to go on to college because FGM also holds girl back socioeconomically.

So, unfortunately, she only gives 20 scholarships a year because that's all her organization can afford.

And it's like $20 a year to do that.

She ships menstrual pads, because that's another thing that if they don't have menstrual pads, they stay at home for five to seven days while they're menstruating.

So it gives them the opportunity to go to school.

And so what I try and do is support her work as much as possible, because she already has the boots on the ground in Liberia.

She already has their trust and their confidence.

She already has the documents, the physicians, et cetera.

I just want her to be more successful.

Bravo to that.

And it takes a village to make these changes.

It actually does.

It really does.

It really does.

And that's why I would like to get the ear of an Oprah Winfrey, for example, who has a lot of a footprint in Africa, because they say that the largest population of FGM girls is in Africa.

I was reading that.

Yeah.

So it's.

But it doesn't.

It's not exclusively so, but it's.

You know, if we could move the needle in Africa, we would be making a big difference in the world.

Yeah.

So, like, for example, Somalia, they cut 98% of their girls.

Egypt cuts 91% of their girls.

So I was in Dubai in The uae.

And I was working with some cultural folks there, and I talked about female genital mutilation, and they said, we don't do that here.

And it's like, that's not true.

What's the percentage in Dubai?

So I don't have that number by a city, but it's high.

And they're considered one of the more progressive areas of the Middle East, I think.

No, they still subjugate their women to, you know, they just let them start to drive.

Recently, they having been there, you know, you cover up from head to toe, even foreigners, you have to cover your knees and your shoulders and.

Yeah, no, I have a real problem with the uae.

I'll never go back.

I was asked to speak there again.

Like, I just can't.

I cannot justify how you treat women and girls.

And I know that they have a lot of money and, you know, but it.

They do terrible things.

So I just.

I'm like, no, I.

I've been there once.

That's good enough.

Yeah, I don't blame you.

I think that the public perspective is that Dubai is more progressive, but unless you've actually been there, you don't know.

Yeah, they don't.

It's amazing how people kind of hide some of that, you know, just bury it.

Well, there's actually a documentary, Shelley, about Dubai when they were hosting the World cup for soccer for FIFA, and they basically incarcerated their workers for six, seven, eight years to build the stadium that it was going to be hosted in.

And they interview.

The documentary shows that they pay them very hardly livable wages.

They stock them away in dormitories without air conditioning and 122 degrees, et cetera.

And then two days before the tournament was to begin, they reneged on their beverage contract, and I believe it was Budweiser beer.

They said, no, you will not be able to serve that because they have no alcohol in their country.

Right.

And so I can't help but think all along they knew they were going to do that, but they just lured everybody with their, you know, we're being progressive and this is a worldwide event, and it's not just for our.

Our culture and our population.

So I don't trust them.

I don't blame you.

That's the long and the short of it.

Sure.

Maria, what your organization is doing is so essential, and the fact that you're on our show so we can let our listeners know is really important.

I am sure that there's some people who are listening right now who want to know what they can do to help what can people do to help your organization?

Because more.

More people need to be made aware, more people need to be involved.

So thank you, Shelley, for that and Kathy, too, for the opportunity.

I'm afraid to say that it all boils down to donations, really, because there's only so much that we can do without that.

But the good news is it's not that complicated.

So education and awareness cost just in terms of producing the materials and sometimes having the language changed, depending on the population, because like the communities.

So California leads the country in the number of putt girls.

So out of the 500,000 in the United States, they say 513,000, almost 80,000 of them live in the state of California.

That's an inordinate amount of the population of the country.

It sure is.

And so for me to get the message to the various communities that are affected by it, that requires getting into their communities, getting their confidence, having them feel safe that they can share, getting the materials and their language of origin.

And again, that's where the costs come in.

But the good news is that once people are exposed and understand that this isn't what we need to be doing, there is a population that is agreeing to change their culture, their traditions, and their way of life.

The other thing is that the medical school curriculum doesn't include female genital mutilation in it.

So that when pediatricians and OBGYN see it in their practice, they are shocked because they don't know what they're looking at.

That boils down to public health.

Yes, it does.

And again, that costs money.

It's just to get the message out.

It's always about money.

The money makes the world go round.

Yeah.

I just wanted to say thank you so much for just your.

Your dedication and your commitment to getting this.

This word out there.

And the education is everything.

I personally am partially involved in the whole menstruation beyond, beyond menstruation that's going on in India where the women have to be in huts and when they have their period every month and they're banned and they're considered dirty and filthy.

And so I, I think between yourself and myself and anybody who's vocal about these issues, it's the only way to get the public to react is by being vocal and participating in.

In things that make them uncomfortable.

Right.

Because, I mean, you got to step outside their comfort zone if you want to be real and honest about what.

What's really going on and not hiding behind that.

That white picket fence said, oh, all is rosy, you know, and, and not listen to, to the people that say, no, it's not happening in our country.

Yes, it is happening, and you need to open your eyes and do something about it.

So I just wanted to, I just want to commend you again.

Thank you so much.

Yes, thank you, Marilla.

Thank you for that.

Because I think it's actually women that will probably be the biggest game changer in that When I founded Stop the Cut now, the second title is Eradicating Female Genital Mutilation.

So people know exactly what we're talking about.

It's not about, you know, self harm, self cutting, that, those other psychological issues.

My husband's on the board also, and he's an avid golfer.

And they'll say things, you know, what do you do?

Or whatever.

And he'll bring it up.

And they're like, now he golfed with a physician from Texas.

And the guy was like, no.

And he was like, oh, yeah.

So the, I love it that it's coming from a man, too.

But the title of the foundation apparently is good enough because sometimes they'll go to stopthecutnow.org and they'll contact me and said, I played golf with your husband this week and he told me about the work that you're doing and I would like to donate.

And it's like, oh, my gosh, how you know.

And again, it's $100 here or $200 there.

It doesn't matter.

It all adds up.

It's just, especially for men, I think is because they'll say, I have a wife, I have daughters, you know what?

And it's like, yeah, what?

Yeah, they're shocked and incredulous, but it's information they need to know.

Everybody needs to know it or it's never going to change.

I commend you for what you're doing.

Stay tuned for more of women Road warriors coming up.

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Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

In certain parts of the world, virginity is a requirement for women before marriage.

The dowry for a daughter is greater if her labia and clitoris have been removed.

This is just one of the reasons that many girls as young as infants and teens are subjected to genital mutilation.

Their labia minora and clitoris are cut for non medical reasons, leaving them permanently scarred.

In one particular procedure, there's only an opening about the size of a Q tip that's left to allow girls and women to urinate and menstruate.

Once these women have intercourse after their marriage, they typically rupture and hemorrhage and they have to go to the hospital.

Stop the Cut now is a Nonprofit founded by Dr.

Maria Viola Sanchez that's working internationally to stop this terrible abuse of women and girls, which, shockingly, is not talked about.

It's denied and quietly continues even in the United States, where at least 500,000 women and girls are mutilated every year.

Dr.

Sanchez's organization is working to change laws and educate people around the world.

She talks about the obstacles and what we all need to know to issue a rallying cry to stop this barbaric practice once and for all.

The good news is awareness and education are making a change, even though it's at a snail's pace.

Maria, you're really making a difference by opening people's eyes to the ugly truth of this terrible practice.

We do on our website try to be as educational as we can.

You've got no nonsense, candid information and you list all the current stats of what's happening around the world, including the United States, and what states.

It is really powerful.

It's moving the needle.

That's what's important, you know, bit by bit by bit.

Yep.

Every little bit of information makes the difference.

It gains the awareness and it makes the change.

And Shelli, you're part of the bit by bit just by us having this conversation and for your listeners.

I mean, as I said, if you know you need something to be done, sometimes you have to do it yourself.

Yes, that's very true.

Well, Maria, I'm so glad to be able to help.

Because this awareness, bringing things out, like I said, into the sunshine is the only way it's going to change.

This is marginalization.

It's abuse.

It is nothing but a human rights violation.

It should not exist.

And the more people that hear about it get out of the denial phase.

You know, it's not a pleasant topic.

It's creepy.

You know, it makes people uncomfortable, but they need to be and they need to realize if they feel uncomfortable just hearing about it, it's wrong and something needs to be done.

You know, just to let your listeners know.

There's a country called the Gambia and they had legislation that outlawed female genital mutilation.

Their national assembly decided that maybe they would reverse that and they would allow cutting.

And we, my international activists, we circulated a petition, we got over 150 signatures of big time upper ups in the world.

But they were deciding whether or not to make it legal, which they would have been the first country to do.

So three quarters of their girls are cut and they voted and they voted to keep the ban.

But 34 of them voted to keep the ban and 19 voted to overturn it.

So you know, 19 people said that they wanted female genital mutilation to be legal in their country.

Now see, that's devaluing women too and marginalization.

And it does feel like we take two steps forward and 10 steps back.

But that's where perseverance needs to take place.

People can't give up.

They have to have a voice.

42 of them voted to overturn the ban.

They got more information.

They, to their credit, they had a period where they welcomed people to talk.

That's why we did our petition and et cetera.

And of those 42 overturning it, only 19 stayed to overturn it.

But it was close, it was scary.

We were all worried throughout the world.

And that happened just last year.

That's super scary.

Wow, Maria, you're creating awareness.

You're creating a unified voice which, which is so necessary and this awareness is making the difference to stop these laws, to educate the lawmakers, which is so necessary.

And I know that that's part of the mission of your organization.

Where do people find you?

How do they reach out?

Can they reach out to you?

Absolutely.

So stopthecutnow.org is the website.

There is the information, you know, brief education.

There is a donate button on every page and my contact information is with, at the very bottom of the website.

Not only my personal cell phone, but my email.

So it's stopthecutnow.org we are, by the way, 501C3.

And the IRS has given us tax exempt status, so we're as legit as they come.

And that wasn't easy to get either.

Oh, it never is.

Excellent.

What do you have the greatest need right now?

I would like to see the nine states and the District of Columbia pass legislation.

And I'd like to see Assembly Bill 798 in California, which is the one that I sponsored, get passed.

And then when we have tackled that, then we can get onto the world.

We do need to tackle the world.

People need to be aware of this issue to stop it.

All of this needs to be totally eradicated.

This practice should never happen.

It's just atrocious.

Every kind of descriptor I can find, mind.

It's just heinous.

You know, this is.

This is torture.

This is abuse.

It is everything that should never, ever happen to any human being.

And if it happened to a boy or a man, like I said earlier, there's no way it would happen, you know?

Well, if you think about 230 million women in the world, we don't even have that many women in the United States.

That puts it in perspective.

Makes you really think of the gravity and the size of it.

That's a lot of people.

It really is.

It's a lot of people.

It's a lot of people.

I was involved in the eradication of polio, and now that's only in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria.

So I've seen global campaigns work and this one needs to be a global campaign, too.

Yep.

And people need to attend the international day about this issue that happens every year in February.

They need to be involved.

Yeah.

And an Egyptian girl had just died from being cut because one of the things that can happen is death because of the bleeding.

And they talked about that when I was there on February 6th of 2020.

So we had a real life.

Right.

The same week example of how terrible it is.

It's just so.

Just so you know, Shelly, I.

If your listeners are feeling that there is vicarious trauma, as I start to feel when you hear that, what happens?

How can you not feel empathy?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

One of the survivors, she's from Somalia.

She's told her story at a conference I attended in the uk and I couldn't stop crying because she's the one that remembers.

She was 7 when she was cut.

She remembers it all.

I was just like, oh, my gosh, what do you say?

I'm sorry.

Like, is that good enough?

Yeah.

I mean, the person's Life is forever changed.

Correct.

Not in the good.

Not for the good at all.

It's emotionally and physically traumatic.

It leaves a scar.

And I can't imagine any parent that would say, gee, this is an okay practice.

Right?

You know?

Well, thank you, Maria, for what you're doing.

We definitely need some people involved, and that's why I wanted you on the show.

It's a tough topic, but sometimes it takes the tough topics to make a change.

It really does.

Well, and thank you for your courage, too, and what you do on a regular basis, because that's so empowering.

It really is helpful for women, period.

And men, because it's been proven that the stronger a woman is in society, the better off that society is for all concerned.

Absolutely.

Yes.

It's very true.

And people need to know that.

And that's why we want to empower everyone but women.

Definitely.

Women and girls, education, knowledge, empowerment, all of that is so very important.

It's the best thing for humanity.

It really is.

It really is.

Yeah.

Thank you, Shelley.

Thank you for the privilege.

I really appreciate the opportunity.

It's been an honor having you on the show.

I.

I appreciate that.

Thank you, Shelly.

Continued success.

Thank you.

I wanted to add a postscript, an update for our listeners.

After recording this interview with Dr.

Sanchez, Kathy and I found out that the California bill that she discussed, AB798, eventually died in the California Senate Appropriations Committee in 2024.

If you're as outraged by that as we are and you live in California, please contact your lawmakers.

That's true for any of the other states and District of Columbia that are silent on this human rights violation.

Female genital mutilation has no place anywhere in the world.

It takes a village and a unified voice to stop it.

It also takes awareness.

Please tell other people about it, share this interview or reach out to Stop the Cut now for more information on how to help@stopthecutnow.org thank you.

We hope you found this latest episode informative.

And if you'd like to hear more episodes of Women Road warriors or learn more about our show, be sure to check out womenroadwarriors.com and please follow us on social media.

And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on our website.

We also have a selection of podcasts just for women.

They're a series of podcasts from different podcasters.

So if you're in the mood for women's podcasts, just click the Power network tab on womenroadwarriors.com youm'll have a variety of shows to listen to anytime you want to Podcasts Made for Women Women Road warriors is on all the major podcast channels like Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Audible, YouTube and others.

Check us out and please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening.

You've been listening to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

If you want to be a guest on the show or have a topic or feedback, email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.