What is Cultural Identity: Living Authentically with NoorJehan Tourte

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:02 00:16 This week's guest is NoorJehan Tourte, a storyteller and a group executive vice president, brand strategist at healthcare advertising agency Area 23. Noor Jehan, tell us more about you.

NoorJehan Tourte: 00:18 01:17 Thanks, Deneen. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, I am a first generation born to Indian immigrant parents. I grew up in Southern California, and I think my entire youth was defined by trying to find my identity and reconcile so many different cultures that were being taught to me or impressed upon me and trying to find that balance and figure myself out. And that took me down a lot of different paths. And I think staying in corporate America as a woman of color and then climbing the ranks into a leadership position in some ways is very much a accumulation of that search for identity that, you know, overtook my youth.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:17 01:45 Yeah. Yeah. And so you mentioned being born to Indian immigrants. I have to tell you, India is my number two international audience. I love that. And so, you know, by continuing to have guests who are from India, have Indian experience, and we'll keep them there. They actually were number one for a while, but Bangladesh came in and just knocked them out.

NoorJehan Tourte: 01:45 01:52 Oh, okay. I would love, you know, some would say we're all the same land, all the same people. So I love that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:52 02:14 Right, right, right. Cause I'm like, let me look this up. Like where is Bangladesh in relationships? Yeah. Neighbors. Yeah. So that's exciting. Exciting to share. So, You sign your emails with designer of my catastrophe. What does this look like for you?

NoorJehan Tourte: 02:14 04:03 I know I say I'm a designer of my own catastrophe and I think it's because there are, I don't know if you ever feel this way, Denise, there are many days or many moments where maybe my life feels over-scheduled or over-subscribed or I have a sudden inspiration to pursue a new creative pursuit. And sometimes I just sit there and I go, Noorjahan, why can't you just want less? If you just wanted less out of life, like maybe it would be just simple. Like why is this just not sitting home and making dinner and watching TV after you're nine to five. Like, why isn't that enough for you? And I don't say that critically because I do think that that is such an important thing to attain in life, however you define your contentment. But there are people that are so content with, okay, I have reached a stage in my career where this is my career, these are my hours and my schedule, and I wrap up work and I enjoy my dinner with my family and I enjoy my weekends. And I love that for them. I love that they're content. And my contentment is defined Catastrophically, I guess, because I feel like I derive this contentment from, you know, throwing my hat in the ring and all these different things. Or if suddenly I decide I want to resurrect singing, I used to be a singer, then fine, I'll figure out a way to do that. And that's why I say, I guess I'm just a designer of my own catastrophe. But so those days I question it, like, why can't you just be okay with things being a little more simple, I remind myself that, for me, that definition of simplicity won't keep me happy.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:03 04:45 So, you know, I want to sit with this for a moment, right? Because women, women of color in particular, we're always on the go, right? We're always doing, doing, doing, thinking we have to do, right? And so listening to you, it is buying into that whole thing of doing, doing, doing. Also, what I heard you say is, And you sign it, you're the designer. So you choose that when going, going, you're making a choice. It's not like it's thrust upon you. You're making a decision that, hey, this is how I thrive. This is how I get joy. And what makes me happy is in the doing. Would you agree with that?

NoorJehan Tourte: 04:45 04:49 100%. Okay. Absolutely agree with that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:49 05:11 And I want to make that clear, right? Because, you know, it's okay to do, do, do if you're choosing to do, do, do. And then also make sure you're getting that rest, which we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about in a moment. But now I want to know, like, how does one live a painstakingly cultivated life? Like what is that? And how are you living that?

NoorJehan Tourte: 05:12 06:41 I when I talk about a life that you've painstakingly cultivated for yourself, I, in my own experience, and for everyone, right, it's all relative, all of our experiences matter. I feel like I went through a lot of um, these phases where I thought I was disappointing people, letting people down. Uh, some would describe it as being really rebellious or just completely, you know, turning my back on culture or religion or expectations that were put on me. And that was painful that those were painful periods for myself and for loved ones and for people I really cared about. And Now when I look at my life, even some of the most painful choices, if I hadn't made those, I wouldn't be here. So I find so much enjoyment in my life and I'm so grateful even for the hard days now because it's a life I'm choosing. So during those hard days, I have to remember you painstakingly cultivated this life. I'm not saying that there's not bad days in this life, but this is the life that you really carved out for yourself. And that helps me get through the tough days. Like today, it's been a really, really tough day, but it's a life of my choosing. So I think that makes those tough days more palatable and motivates me to get through them.

Deneen L. Garrett: 06:41 07:15 Yeah. When I first saw that, I thought, you know, very similar to me, how I, you know, empower women of color to live a dream lifestyle. So when I saw that cultivated life, you know, I saw it as the same and similar, like you're choosing that life, you're choosing it and you're creating it for yourself. But the key is you and that you're in charge of it. Absolutely. Yeah. So what three, um, what are three things that women of color can do to tap into their power in their voice?

NoorJehan Tourte: 07:15 08:58 Okay. First. I think, they're not in any particular order, it's what's coming to my head as I'm thinking, is what I often see us do as women of color is we, again, this is my observation, so if I'm generalizing or if it doesn't, some people cannot relate, this is just my observations, that sometimes we resist taking that support and that help from people that are not of color. are from white men. And we are in a sometimes a dynamic in a world where there might be white men that are our managers or that are our leaders and figure out a way as a woman of color, a person of color to make that work for you and help you move advanced. Don't resist that. And I say that because when we resist some of those things, it's like, it's something that my mother-in-law said that always stuck with me. And she just said it to me last weekend again, where, you know, There is a difference between changing lives and changing the world. And sometimes when we resist maybe the white male leader at our corporation or company that could help us advance our careers, that's maybe because we have these goals of changing the world. but maybe we have to change our lives first before we can change the world. And if that person is a good person that can help you advance, use that to your advantage and you will still be helping and lifting up your community and women of color in a different ways. So I know that was long, but that was my first one, but I'll pause there.

Deneen L. Garrett: 08:58 10:50 Yeah. And I, and what I like about that is I'm the type of person who, you know, like work from the inside out type thing. Right. So as opposed to like tackling, this big huge of the world and more so lives. Right. Let me impact one person and let that have that trickle effect. And, you know, and of course, 10 people, 20 people. But starting from there out. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, sometimes the end is somebody else because we all have our own lanes. We have our own strengths. So for me, it's the lives. And to trickle down for the world, and then others is really just to go ahead and tackle that world problem. And the thing, too, with what you're saying is, you know, you read about in leadership, you read about with mentors, you do want different, you want all types of mentors. Right. You want people who are in higher positions. You want some people who are maybe in different, you know, lower positions or the same. Yeah. You want white males. You want white women. You want people who are different for the same reasons that we want, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion. Right. It's the similar reasons because we know that the different voices together are powerful. Right. And there's so much to learn. And so here's the thing with that. Absolutely. You can hear from someone different than yourself. it goes back to you choosing what you do with that information. Exactly. You don't have to take it like you do it. And then what how it applies to your life and what you want to do in your life that then you make a decision as to, OK, yes, I'm going to follow this or, OK, I'm going to follow a little bit differently and or know that if I don't follow what this person says, there could be consequences and possibly I won't get something that I want that I want because I'm not doing it, you know, the way that it was suggested.

NoorJehan Tourte: 10:51 11:33 Exactly. But I think, yeah, it does go back to choice. And if you think about history and a lot of historical key figures in life, like they went beyond their communities, absorbed, learned. They were sponges absorbing how other communities, other people are doing things. And they took it back to their communities and they adjusted to how it well fit their culture and their people. And I think that sounds like what you're saying too, Deneen. And I just, I find that, I can't wake up and expect that suddenly every new company that I interview at is going to have women of color leaders. So I've got to do my best in those environments and not resist, but figure out a way to make that work for myself.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:33 13:06 Yeah, absolutely. And so with what you just said, it reminded me. So I was at a, it's a STEM conference for indigenous people, right? And I remember talking with someone, and I asked, so what do you plan to do after you get your degree? And the person said, go back to the reservation. And so what I did with that information, I said, well, you know what, if you were to get an internship with the company I was working for at the time. You can be in position to learn how to connect with people who will help you when you go back to the reservation. You will learn how to interact with those people, those people who are various levels and in different industries, etc. take this information and you take it back to your community and you use it, your reservation, and you use it the best way that it fits, right? And so what I was doing was helping them to see how that thing could definitely benefit them because people are not necessarily looking beyond. So going back to, you know, your recommendation, they're not necessarily looking beyond, they're making assumptions as to what they, you know, information they may get or a whole bunch of different things and not necessarily realizing that there's definitely power and potential in learning from that individual. I cannot agree more. And so I know you said that was the first one. So what's a couple other ways?

NoorJehan Tourte: 13:06 15:07 I think for women of color, and I'm learning this a lot more in my adult life, is, so again, if it resonates with those that have a similar path, amazing. If not, I hope it's just insightful. I resisted my own culture for a while. And I like, for example, right, my name, it's Noor Jahan. I'm in this past couple of years have been reclaiming that because when I started school, I shortened it to Noor. I thought it would be easier. And at work, it was just easier in corporate America to be Noor. And, you know, it's such a beautiful name that was given to me by my grandfather. And I'm in this, you know, phase of just reclaiming it and really celebrating my culture. And I think part of why I was not as much as celebratory about the cross sections of so many different cultures that make up who I am is because I was trying to, you know, figure out how to be an all American girl in Southern California and figuring that out and like how and that that stayed with me. And even in my career, I'm like, OK, well, you know, I'm American, I'm American and I am and I'm really proud of that. But being of color and being, you know, having these cultural roots, that are so rich, I think the more we can embrace that and lean into it, I think I just feel so much more comfortable and I feel like it makes me dynamic in my thinking. don't self-silent and don't let anyone silence you and make you feel like you have to silence that part of your lives. That's a big deal. And I love sharing more about it publicly with my peers, with my teams. And it gives me confidence. And I think it's a different kind of confidence that I didn't have before. But when I'm proud of my culture, it gives me a really a different channel of confidence.

Deneen L. Garrett: 15:07 16:37 Absolutely, because you're bringing more of yourself, right? You're not having to hide any parts of yourself. And I mean, the thing about it is, it's a superpower to be that. And if you speak another language, that's a whole nother. I remember being at a Hispanic Latino event, and a woman who had a heavy accent, she mentioned how people talked about her accent. Here's the thing, you know, and she said it and I'm saying it, but can you speak more than one language? You know what I'm saying? No, you can't. And that's a beautiful thing. Like, she is bilingual. She's able to speak fluently with an accent in English and fluently in Spanish, right? And how many of us, typical in the United States, speak more than one language? You know, and that's a beautiful thing. So absolutely embrace all parts of yourself. Right. And then people want to know all of you. They want to know that part of you like, oh, you know, that's interesting. You know, I would love to know more about that. And like for me, two things that fascinate me is I love the matchmaking that happened in the Indian culture. Right. I love that. I love that. And I also love the weddings and the whole ceremonies were in the days. I mean, all of that is just beautiful. And to see that, um, is absolutely beautiful. So yes, congratulations to you for making a decision again, you deciding that, you know what, I'm going to show up as more of me.

NoorJehan Tourte: 16:38 17:09 Absolutely. It's so funny you say that. My husband is not Indian, but we did have a wonderful Indian portion of our wedding celebration. I was really excited to invite some of my colleagues and open up that world to them. have them see, you know, how my parents are and, and how my parents honor their faith and how we celebrate the culture. It was, it was really beautiful. And it was, it was awesome.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:09 17:55 Nice, nice. And I want to kind of go back to this, right? Because, you know, again, when you were talking, um, and how you pretty much suppressed, um, I mean, a large, huge part of you, um, what came to mind was code switching. So we talk about code switching a lot in the black community, which is similar Um, you know, and it happens in other communities, of course. Um, but basically you are. Now you're assimilating, you know, you're changing yourself. You're changing your hair. You're changing your speech. You're changing your name. You're doing all of these different things because you want to fit in as opposed to standing out or letting other people in. So when you were doing this, did you feel a heaviness at all of having to do that or choosing to do that?

NoorJehan Tourte: 17:56 19:27 when I was doing when you were when I was suppressing or not your full self. The heaviness I felt. I didn't. I think I was running away from the culture. So I felt more guilt and I was exhausted from feeling like I was living these two different lives. So that's what I felt because what you're talking about too, I think is when people realize like, I don't want to suppress this. I'm so proud of this that I don't want to suppress this anymore. And that feels heavy, but I wasn't proud of it. I was running away from something and then I was constantly living two lives of like, okay, what I'm doing with my parents on the weekends and I don't really need to make that a big deal at work. And then at work, I was really keeping quiet about all of our nights out and fun nights and whatever I was doing from my parents. And I think that was just exhausting. It got really exhausting and I just constantly felt like I was, yeah, just living two different lives. And so, And it's funny, I don't define my finding myself as because I got married, but I think our wedding celebration really was symbolic of just these two different worlds that I lived for a long time coming together and the acceptance I felt from all the different worlds. And it really was that turning point.

Deneen L. Garrett: 19:27 19:36 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's one more tip you want to give us in order to tap into our power and voice.

NoorJehan Tourte: 19:36 22:42 I think, and you know, it's something that I feel like us women of color, we probably feel a lot of pressure, whether it comes from our community or our parents, and especially if we're ambitious and pursuing careers, like not to mess up, right? Like, you know, like you have to always be a role model. And, you know, I remember that so much. I was just talking to my dad a couple days ago and, I was always angry at how much pressure that they put on me. Don't mess up. Everyone's watching. Every eye is on you and waiting for you to mess up. So don't mess up. And that just felt like so much pressure. And I feel now it instilled a work ethic in me. That's for sure. But my tip is for, you know, especially in our careers and we're trying to navigate that, that what I have found is sometimes others Because everyone's navigating D, E, and I, Dineen, people might inadvertently stereotype that everything that they're saying, that women of color or the people of color, everything they're saying, ooh, okay, it's coming from a D, E, and I perspective, and I have to be mindful of how is Noor Jahan gonna feel if I say this? And that's exhausting for all of us, because we can sense it. We can sense when people are on their tiptoes around us. But I think that my tip is to, you know, be just focus at work too. Just especially if you're early on your career, focus on your craft. Focus on the skills. The more you can focus on being the best copy editor or like the best graphic designer or that you can be, right? Or like, you know, you're just you're the best intern at the new fashion house, like whatever it is, like just focus on the skills because you're going to be reminded for the rest of your life that you are a woman of color. And, you know, I think that the more we, like, how I manage my days is when they're getting to be sensory overload, I have to remember the quality of the work that I am putting out will people poke holes in that? Or will people be like, ooh, this is some good work. That keeps me going. I focus on my craft. And that way, when I'm in those meetings where there might be other people who might be feeling a little bit more sensitive about DE&I, it doesn't cloud my thinking. I don't hold back because I worry that if I say something, people are going to think, oh, she's saying this from a DE&I perspective or a woman of color perspective. She's feeling marginalized, so I have to listen to her because that stumps us. I see that stump us as women sometimes that I'm, am I being listened to for the right reasons? And I just think that the more confident we feel about our functional skills that we are bringing to the table in the workplace, the less we're going to be clouded by those thoughts. So that's my other tip is I know it goes back to my dad saying, just like work hard, but like, don't feel the pressure. Like you can't mess up, but, but just, you know, It doesn't matter what color our skin is.

Deneen L. Garrett: 22:42 24:24 I want to say it's an and you definitely want to, you know, bring your best at all times. And you want to be as much of yourself, your full self as possible. And something came to mind when you were talking. So I was thinking back to a conversation I had with Brietta Calloway. And that was a previous episode. And she talked about, she introduced me to something that I hadn't heard of before. And it was, it was a stereotype threat. something like that to whereas, because you think there's a threat, that you act a certain way, right? Maybe you don't do something, maybe you don't ask a question, you hold back because of the fear of the threat, right? And so kind of like what you're saying is, is not to operate from there, just operating your excellence, right? And then like, I'm adding and still be yourself, be your proud woman of color self, your black self, whomever you are, and always Always show up as yourself and you do that work, right? Because you're there to do work and it's an and I look at I look at most things as an and so if you all anyone wants to. You know, learn more about the stereotype thread and a conversation that she and I had that strategies for professional growth, navigating challenges on the path to success. Elevate your career journey, and that was with Brietta Calloway and that really that was just we had the conversation on February 8 actually was episode 144. but yeah, that reminded me of that because that was something different and new because when we think people are going to react a certain way. It kind of. shapes how we behave.

NoorJehan Tourte: 24:24 24:37 How we're going to act. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that though. If you're operating in your excellence, I think like I, I give myself permission to be myself because I feel like I'm operating in my excellence when it's- And that's a beautiful way.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:37 25:01 Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it goes back to your designing your, your own catastrophe, right? Absolutely. It makes me think of that. So when we were talking about that, you know, I was, I brought up breasts and said we would get back to it. So Self-care is an underutilized necessity. So talk to us about the importance of taking time for ourselves and the power in the pause.

NoorJehan Tourte: 25:02 27:10 I'm learning about that a lot more. You know, I took on this new role at my company and being in a leadership role and really having to exercise empathy and really, really making sure that people feel good and feel like they work life balance at that they're you know, mental well-being is sound. It's really of the utmost importance to me because I know what I feel like when I'm starting to teeter on, I'm too overwhelmed with work. And I have really, really adjusted where my Saturdays now are my Saturdays. Like I just don't live by a to-do list. I don't think about all the things I have to do. I just enjoy my Saturday. And that is new for me because I used to be the type of person that was, and the other thing too, I used to wake up at like 5.30 AM every single day to try to get everything done that I wanted to get done. And as I'm getting older, I just, I value the sleep more. I value my rest. And I also have to remind myself every day when I go to bed, I was like, gosh, I don't mind what didn't get done. I'm actually very happy that I'm getting into my bed and I'll get a good night's sleep. And that self-care, it's actually reminded me that I'm still quite productive in the time that I give to being productive. So I almost felt like I was too scared to test that theory. So I was like, every day has to be scheduled and I have to be doing things and I have to wake up early. And once I got the courage to just test the theory that if you gave yourself some rest, are you still getting enough done that you feel productive and that work is moving forward and that your goals are moving forward? Once that answer became yes, I just crave, I look forward to my Saturdays and it's good because then I'm getting quality time with my partner and with our family and with friends and I'm much happier that way. And I have more perspective to bring to work because I'm living a regular, normal, life that's not subscribed on that day or two.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:10 28:04 Yes. And really, thank you for sharing it, right? Because based on our conversation and what you've said, you do operate in the do, do, do, do, do. Again, you're choosing to do that. And then at the same time, you weren't necessarily practicing self-care And so now you're starting to and you're seeing like, oh, my God, this is a beautiful thing. Like, OK, I can do this and still be productive. I can do this and still operate in excellence. And as a matter of fact, I'm probably, you know, leveling up because I am taking that pause. So I'm glad that you're having that experience that you're able to share with our listeners and those who watch. So absolutely yeah so I honor my late sister author and poet Soul True by asking about Dreams Deferred which is the title of one of her books. Please share a Dreams Deferred moment.

NoorJehan Tourte: 28:04 28:25 Oh Deneen this one's got me thinking. a dream deferred, right? So in my interpretation, it's a dream I've deferred, but a dream I'm still pursuing or still wanting to pursue. Is that correct?

Deneen L. Garrett: 28:25 28:37 Yep. You know what? Yes. If that's how you choose to answer it, it could even be a dream that you had and you decided for whatever reason, like, okay, I'm over that.

NoorJehan Tourte: 28:37 30:51 Okay. Well, you know what? I think I like that one better. I used to have this dream of um, you know, quitting my corporate job and packing everything up and living as like a global nomad. And this is well before the pandemic, right? And I used to have that dream that I could just move from country to country because I love to travel and I just want to see the world and experience every culture and, and just live and then, and write along the way and figure it out. And it, and this wasn't like a childhood or like gap year dream. This was like in my twenties and thirties, like late twenties, thirties, like I, And I deferred that and it wasn't by my own choosing that I deferred that. But I'm so happy that it was deferred because you know, you change, you get older. And there was probably this little part of me that knew that wasn't for me. I like structure. I do like the stability that structure brings. And while I have so many creative pursuits, I do like the structure of the corporate America world that I've, that's all I've ever known when it comes to work. And I like that feeling of accomplishment. And I think that's when it hit me. I said, you know, I don't, I like feeling accomplished and a lot of what I was hearing about people that were traveling, the comeback is hard. The comeback is a comedown after you've gone and left reality for a year and you travel the world, then you come back and it's a comedown because you suddenly see your peers maybe have been doing other things or advanced in their careers or their family lives. And I think that would have been hard for me. And I also really love looking forward to our vacations and our international travel. I love that it feels like I enjoy it so much more because it felt so hard earned from, and that's just my perspective, that it felt so harder and that I really just go out there and I enjoy it. And I didn't have to quit life to go see the world. I can still go see it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:52 32:54 Absolutely. And you know what? I love this conversation because you're definitely bringing a different perspective from other conversations. Right. And I think you're representing a lot of women who live the way that you live, you know, right. And have thoughts the way that you you're thinking. And for me, living a dream lifestyle is travel. So like you saying that, oh, I wanted to do this. That's something that I would, you know, love to do. And it's something I'm able to do. However, I choose to break it up. Right. So like travel, you know, I may even just go for a day and come right back. Right. The longest that I probably stay away is maybe four nights because I just don't want to be gone that long, but I'm gone. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm often and I do love going and in connecting with people and learning from people and being away. Also, when you come back, it's, you know, like I was in Baltimore this past weekend and it's like, you're disconnected from things. So back, it's like, okay, now let me get up to speed. Right. Here's the deal. I'm okay with that. So it's, it goes back to you individually, what you're okay with, what you want in life and how you want to design that. And like I said, I love your perspective because there's plenty of women out there who are listening or watching, who are in that same lane with you, right? And then there may be others who like aspire to be in my lane or even what you said you would. Because I would like to do an RV. Like I would like to go on an RV, like maybe do a week drive across. That's something that I would like to do. And I may end up doing that this summer. But again, it's about what you want out of life as long as you can keep things moving. So right now I kind of shifted into living a dream lifestyle. which is what I empower women of color to do. How do you define a dream lifestyle and then how do you live a dream lifestyle?

NoorJehan Tourte: 32:54 34:34 To me, the definition of a dream lifestyle is contentment. I cannot paint a picture of anyone's dream lifestyle other than my own, but what makes it a dream is I feel content. And I think that was something that I never thought was possible, this feeling of contentment. I actually accepted that I might never attain that. And so that always felt like a dream, like, whoa, I marry someone of my choosing that's not in the community that my parents accept. I forged my own career path with many, you know, breaks and detours along the way. And and somehow I'm really happy and I'm still pursuing all my creative pursuits. I never thought that would be possible. It felt like a dream. Travel, I felt like once I gave up the idea of like living abroad for indefinitely, I would not get to see the world, but I still am getting to go on these amazing travel experiences. That's a dream. So I'm living that dream lifestyle, but none of that would have happened without finding contentment. And so when I'm in my most mundane days, it's still a dream lifestyle because I have to remind myself, am I content? Yeah, I'm content. Contentment doesn't mean like your happy days, sad days, tough days, great days, but you can still be content through all of that. And that to me is a dream lifestyle, Denine, because it's one I never thought I could actually attain. But in doing the work and figuring out what it was going to take to get to contentment, I'm now living it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 34:34 35:01 Yes, and that's pretty much what I do coach women and empower them, is to first dream, then decide, design, and then drive towards that dream life, whatever that is for you. And to also know that it changes. It doesn't happen the same way. Like for me, number one is travel, and then I add on to that, right? And so that's what others can do as well. So Noor Jahan, what would you like to leave the audience with before we wrap?

NoorJehan Tourte: 35:02 35:31 I think the only thing I'd want to leave you with is, um, something that I always say is just, you know, wouldn't you rather stumble living life than squander at standing still and just make the mistakes, you know, keep failing. And because if you're, if, if you're not making mistakes, that means you're not putting yourself out there and trying. And I would not find contentment without having made so many mistakes and just continuing to try things.

Deneen L. Garrett: 35:33 36:14 Love it, love it. And I actually have to share, so my mom told me yesterday, she was, so it was a character from something that we watch, it's from Sisters, which is by Tyler Perry. And so there's a character on there, Gary, Gary happens to be on something else. But anyway, so she was saying, you know, yeah, someone had said the other day, like, if you're not hated, like on the TV show, you're not doing your job. Right. So if you're not stumbling, then you're not living. So exactly. Your way through your dream life, right? Heck yeah. Well, Nur Jahan Tord, thank you so much for letting your voice on Women of Color in intimate conversation and enjoy the rest of your day.

NoorJehan Tourte: 36:14 36:16 Thank you so much for having me, Deneen.

Deneen L. Garrett: 36:16 36:17 Absolutely.