Holding Space: Surviving Corporate America with Minda Harts

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:06 00:11 Welcome to An Intimate Conversation with Women of Color.
Deneen L. Garrett: 00:11 00:19 This podcast provides women of color, LGBTQ plus, and allies a platform to use their voices.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:19 00:22 Join us as we share our personal journeys.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:22 00:29 I am your host, Deneen L. Garrett.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:29 00:33 Welcome to another episode of An Intimate Conversation with Women of Color.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:34 00:37 Today's guest is my favorite podcaster.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:37 00:42 So it was my absolute pleasure to speak with her.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:42 00:49 I was having a fangirl moment talking to someone that I have a lot of respect for.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:49 00:58 I look at her as the leading voice for black women, women of color in corporate America.

Deneen L. Garrett: 00:58 01:03 So if you haven't guessed who that is, today's episode is with Minda Hurts.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:04 01:19 Minda is a TEDx speaker and best-selling author of The Memo, What Women of Color Need, and so much more as you will hear and learn about in today's episode.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:19 01:27 So please continue to listen, subscribe if you haven't already done so, and share the podcast.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:27 01:28 Now get ready.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:29 01:36 to feel the excitement of my special guest on this week's episode.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:36 01:39 I am your host, Deneen L. Garrett.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:39 01:43 Minda, hi, and welcome to an intimate conversation with women of color.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:43 01:44 How are you?

Minda Harts: 01:44 01:45 I am great.

Minda Harts: 01:45 01:46 Thank you, Deneen, for having me.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:47 01:53 Oh, it is my absolute pleasure and something that I've been waiting on since May for my birthday.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:53 01:59 So thank you so much for saying yes and being accommodating.

Deneen L. Garrett: 01:59 02:00 I greatly appreciate you.

Minda Harts: 02:00 02:01 Yes.

Minda Harts: 02:01 02:06 Well, I hope you're still celebrating you, even though it's no longer May.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:06 02:06 Right.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:06 02:08 Well, you know what I am.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:08 02:09 I am.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:09 02:12 And I have to remind myself, you know, often to do so, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:12 02:16 Because we get caught up in life and the things that are going on around us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:16 02:19 And sometimes, you know, we, you know, forget about ourselves.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:19 02:21 And so, yes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:21 02:28 So it's not a daily thing, but it's definitely something, you know, every so often, and I do strive to do better.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:29 02:30 So thank you.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:30 02:33 So today's guest is Minda Hart.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:33 02:39 She is a TEDx speaker and bestselling author of the memo, What Women of Color Need.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:39 02:44 Minda is also the host of the Secure Your Seat podcast and so much more.

Deneen L. Garrett: 02:44 02:46 Minda, tell us more about you.

Minda Harts: 02:47 02:48 Yeah, thank you so much for that.

Minda Harts: 02:48 02:54 I am a CEO of the memo LLC, which is a career development platform for women of color.

Minda Harts: 02:54 03:01 And then, as you mentioned, I came out with a book called the memo, what women of color need to know to secure a seat at the table.

Minda Harts: 03:01 03:08 And I also teach part time at NYU on talent development in their HR course.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:09 03:10 Wonderful, wonderful.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:10 03:13 And so I do like to share how I know my guests.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:13 03:24 And so I believe it was last year, I think I saw a tweet from Essence, and they were advertising the pre-order of the memo.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:24 03:29 And so of course, I ordered mine, pre-ordered mine, then I started listening to your podcast.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:29 03:30 And I have to tell you,

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:31 03:38 It was not the first podcast I ever listened to, but it was the first one that resonated with me or caught my attention.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:38 03:40 Because the ones that I had listened to before, I'm like, what is this?

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:40 03:42 What is this all about?

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:42 03:44 So when I heard yours, I was hooked.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:44 03:47 I will listen to you every day when I walked.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:47 03:48 You are my favorite podcaster.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:48 03:53 So that's another reason why I'm so excited about today's conversation.

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:53 03:55 And through you, I was introduced to

Deneen L. Garrett: 03:56 04:05 My other two favorites, Simone Morris, who was a guest about a month or so ago, and then Stephen A. Hart.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:05 04:11 So thank you for all the people that you have introduced the world to.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:11 04:14 And another thing that I have to say is when I think of you,

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:15 04:21 I definitely think of you as the voice for black and brown women in corporate America.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:21 04:23 And so when I'm thinking, should I say something?

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:23 04:25 Should I do something?

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:25 04:29 I think, well, what would Minda do?

Minda Harts: 04:29 04:32 For better or for worse.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:32 04:33 Exactly.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:33 04:35 I'm like, well, you know, what would she do?

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:35 04:37 She would say something.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:37 04:38 And I do, I think about it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:38 04:41 And I think about things that I've heard you say on a podcast and how

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:41 04:44 It's not just about what for ourselves, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:44 04:45 It's about for other people.

Deneen L. Garrett: 04:45 04:58 And so I do hear that and it resonates very strongly with me that we have to make room for other people and our actions or inactions do impact those that come behind us.

Minda Harts: 04:58 04:59 Well said, yes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 05:01 05:20 So, again, you know for those who don't know you have not read the memo, who have not seen you across social media, and who have not heard the podcast, you know, would want to hear from you why is it important for black women for women of color to have a platform to use their voices.

Minda Harts: 05:26 05:27 Absolutely.

Minda Harts: 05:27 05:31 You know, again, thank you for having me and sharing your table with me.

Minda Harts: 05:31 05:34 You know, for me, it's really based off of what you said.

Minda Harts: 05:34 05:41 I think for so long, many of us as, you know, black women, women of color, we've been having me and it's basically just what you said.

Minda Harts: 05:41 05:43 It's about us having a voice.

Minda Harts: 05:43 05:45 I think for so long,

Minda Harts: 05:45 06:01 corporate America or any other industries have said one size fits all for all women and what we know to be true is that not all women experience the workplace the same and especially if you're a black woman or a woman of color or a woman that you feel you're on the margins,

Minda Harts: 06:01 06:04 Oftentimes you don't feel like anyone's looking at you.

Minda Harts: 06:04 06:05 You feel invisible.

Minda Harts: 06:05 06:14 You feel like you've silenced yourself at the expense of your own well-being, you know, because you can't talk about race and all these other things, these rules that have been placed on us.

Minda Harts: 06:14 06:20 And it's really heavy to show up and be your best self when you're confined to all these different things.

Minda Harts: 06:20 06:22 And so I really started to

Minda Harts: 06:23 06:28 interrogate what it means to be a woman in the workplace, but to be a black woman in the workplace.

Minda Harts: 06:28 06:30 And I and I know that it's different for us.

Minda Harts: 06:30 06:35 And I wanted to to open up that drawer, if you will, and say, let's talk about it.

Minda Harts: 06:35 06:51 Let's let these companies know that we experience things differently and we have to start to hold them accountable, because if we don't, then we're just going to keep perpetuating the cycle of trauma that many of us are experiencing inside the workplace from generation to generation.

Deneen L. Garrett: 06:52 06:54 Yes, all of that well said.

Deneen L. Garrett: 06:54 06:56 And you're right.

Deneen L. Garrett: 06:56 06:58 You know, we weren't seen often.

Deneen L. Garrett: 06:58 07:00 We weren't heard.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:00 07:07 This year, though, since the death, the murder of George Floyd, that's a little bit different.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:07 07:09 So it is it's a time for us to speak up.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:09 07:11 It's a time for us to use our voice.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:11 07:16 And, you know, we really have to capitalize on that while the momentum is now.

Minda Harts: 07:17 07:18 And now is the time.

Minda Harts: 07:18 07:21 If there was never a time, the time is now.

Minda Harts: 07:21 07:29 Why we have somewhat of a captive audience, we really have to lean into our courage and have those conversations that need to be had.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:29 07:31 Absolutely.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:31 07:33 So you are using your voice in so many ways, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:33 07:36 So I talked about that in the introduction.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:36 07:38 You talked about it as well.

Deneen L. Garrett: 07:38 07:43 Other than as an author, speaker and podcaster, how else are you using your voice for women of color?

Minda Harts: 07:44 07:52 Yeah, I really find that it's, so one thing people always ask me is, how did you find your voice?

Minda Harts: 07:52 07:59 And I often tell people that each of us has a voice, we just have to decide how we want to use it.

Minda Harts: 07:59 08:07 And I can use my voice, yes, and move the needle, but really what's awesome about all of this is that

Minda Harts: 08:07 08:14 hopefully when people read the memo or heard the podcast, they were inspired to do something right in their workplace.

Minda Harts: 08:14 08:23 And if the more of us are talking about it, right, and inspiring each other, then think about what our all our collective voice sounds like, right?

Minda Harts: 08:23 08:27 The collective voice sounds like is revolutionary.

Minda Harts: 08:27 08:31 We're changing the way the workplace works for for women that look like us.

Minda Harts: 08:31 08:35 And so I try to whenever I get an opportunity, I try to say the things that

Minda Harts: 08:36 08:39 that sometimes we've all been afraid to say, right?

Minda Harts: 08:39 08:43 Because if we don't talk about those things, then we can't get to the solutions.

Minda Harts: 08:43 08:50 And so I have the privilege to be able to go into a lot of, you know, top companies and brands and have these hard conversations.

Minda Harts: 08:50 08:54 And so I always think about what are the women who

Minda Harts: 08:56 08:57 their voices are not heard right now.

Minda Harts: 08:57 08:59 What is it that I need to say?

Minda Harts: 08:59 09:02 Even if I'm nervous to say it, because this is the shot, right?

Minda Harts: 09:02 09:03 This is the opportunity.

Minda Harts: 09:03 09:07 And if I don't do it, then nobody benefits from it, right?

Minda Harts: 09:07 09:10 And that's kind of what I do.

Minda Harts: 09:10 09:13 I don't just, to your point, I don't just think about me.

Minda Harts: 09:13 09:16 I think about how do we make it better for all of us.

Minda Harts: 09:16 09:19 And I use my voice, even in my dollars, right?

Minda Harts: 09:19 09:23 So what I purchase, what I buy, who I buy them from,

Minda Harts: 09:24 09:32 Those are other ways that we get to dictate what the future looks like for us, if that makes sense.

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:32 09:33 Oh, it absolutely does.

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:33 09:39 And also, again, this year, I've been very conscious about how I'm spending my dollars as well.

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:39 09:43 There was a Facebook group or actually several that, you know, I think it was,

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:44 09:46 God, what day was that?

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:46 09:47 July 7, maybe?

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:47 09:50 It was blackout.

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:50 09:55 And that day you were to only, if you were spending money, you were only to spend money with black owned businesses.

Deneen L. Garrett: 09:55 10:01 So actually from Juneteenth on, I was very conscious and focused on spending my money that way.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:01 10:03 And before I hadn't really thought about it, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:03 10:07 But I really made a conscious effort to only spend my money that way.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:07 10:13 And I didn't go to Target, you know, I'm a big Target person and Target didn't see me for a while, you know, and I sat

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:13 10:17 up, you know, on my couch and I'm ordering from these different businesses.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:17 10:20 And I really appreciated doing that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:20 10:29 And then the awareness to know that there are so many entrepreneurs, there are so many Black-owned businesses, and there's definitely ways for us to support one another.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:29 10:33 So, you know, so much has come out of this particular year.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:33 10:36 You know, 2020 has just been absolutely crazy.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:36 10:43 You know, I don't even know if there's words that, the words that have been written to really describe this year, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:43 10:50 The ups, the downs, the highs, the lows, the losses, the gains, just so much going on at one time.

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:50 10:55 And, you know, you were talking about the different experiences that Black women and women of color have

Deneen L. Garrett: 10:56 11:00 I heard something yesterday on CNN, which was very interesting to me.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:00 11:08 And it kind of goes to the, it's about the election and it kind of broke down some demographics of the people who voted for Trump.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:08 11:15 And one that was really surprising to me, startling to me is that I believe that 35% of Muslims or 35% of his votes were from Muslims.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:23 11:24 And that blew my mind.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:24 11:26 I'm like, wait a minute.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:26 11:27 Yep.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:27 11:29 Okay, this does not track at all.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:29 11:34 But in, you know, as the person was talking, he was just talking about the different experiences that

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:36 11:51 you know, immigrants have, you know, compared to our experience as blacks, we were captive, we were brought over, we didn't have a choice as immigrants, they choose to for certain reasons, and they're able to navigate the world differently than we are.

Deneen L. Garrett: 11:51 11:55 There's so many different systems and things that are in place to keep us back.

Minda Harts: 11:55 11:56 Right.

Minda Harts: 11:56 11:58 Yeah, it's interesting.

Minda Harts: 11:58 12:04 And I think a lot of that, to your point, like, it's, it's also the internalized things that we

Minda Harts: 12:05 12:16 You know, sometimes we we there's this loyalty, right, that that and people are loyal to a fault because they think that this country has given them an opportunity, which in many cases it has.

Minda Harts: 12:16 12:20 And so that's their their way of saying, I'm one of you.

Minda Harts: 12:20 12:21 Right.

Minda Harts: 12:21 12:23 But not always understanding.

Minda Harts: 12:23 12:25 what that does to the collective.

Minda Harts: 12:25 12:35 And that's why I think having conversations like this is so important because some of us have been just working with our head down and we're not, we hadn't really looked up to see, oh, you know what?

Minda Harts: 12:35 12:36 These things are happening.

Minda Harts: 12:36 12:39 These are going on and I can be part of the solution.

Minda Harts: 12:39 12:42 And I think that it's the educational piece, right?

Minda Harts: 12:42 12:49 You know, if 35% of those people who voted that way, maybe had they been exposed to something else, right?

Minda Harts: 12:49 12:52 They may have realized that maybe this isn't in my best interest.

Deneen L. Garrett: 12:53 12:54 Right.

Deneen L. Garrett: 12:54 13:03 And then also if they maybe had the education, as you said, to understand that, okay, you might be okay right now, but just wait.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:03 13:03 You know what I'm saying?

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:03 13:04 Just wait.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:04 13:08 Or when they're done stepping on us, guess who they're coming to next.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:08 13:22 And people don't necessarily realize that because they're stuck in their box, their square, and only really often only thinking about themselves as opposed to other people, you know, and the whole situation with wearing the mask, which is something so simple to help, you know, to

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:23 13:30 contain, you know, a pandemic that has wreaked havoc, people don't want to do that, because they've made it political.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:30 13:38 And I, you know, over 200,000 people, over 265,000 people have died from this.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:38 13:40 So it's real.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:40 13:44 And so for you not to wear a mask, like, really, what is that about?

Minda Harts: 13:44 13:46 You know, it's selfish.

Minda Harts: 13:46 13:48 And, you know, and it's sad.

Minda Harts: 13:48 13:49 And I'm just glad that, um,

Minda Harts: 13:50 13:53 you know, hopefully we're moving in a new direction.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:53 13:54 Yeah, right.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:54 13:54 Absolutely.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:54 13:56 And seeing some gains there.

Deneen L. Garrett: 13:56 14:03 And yesterday, reading that Biden, his communications team is all women.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:03 14:04 That's remarkable.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:04 14:06 Three are black, one is Latina.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:07 14:09 So actually the majority is women of color.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:09 14:11 So that's a beautiful thing.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:11 14:18 Yeah, you know, it's an absolute beautiful thing to see, you know, and for us to have that stage.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:18 14:20 So that's wonderful.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:20 14:22 So you already talked about voiceless, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:22 14:27 About how you're using your voice and how everyone does have a voice.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:27 14:30 There are still women who perceive themselves not to, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:30 14:33 They don't recognize the power of their voices.

Deneen L. Garrett: 14:33 14:35 What would you tell them specifically?

Minda Harts: 14:38 14:40 Yeah, you know there was a quote and I'm gonna get it wrong

Minda Harts: 14:41 14:51 but I heard it once and I can't think of where I heard it, but something to the effect of you don't realize the power of your voice until it's silenced.

Minda Harts: 14:51 14:54 And I think that that's the rub, right?

Minda Harts: 14:54 15:00 I don't think that sometimes as women, as black women, we realize how important our voice is.

Minda Harts: 15:00 15:09 But if we think about the women that came before us, it was their voice and their courage, we are direct beneficiaries of that, right?

Minda Harts: 15:09 15:11 So I'm sitting here talking to you

Minda Harts: 15:11 15:15 And on the left hand side of me is a picture of Shirley Chisholm.

Minda Harts: 15:15 15:19 And on the right hand side of me is a photo of Harriet Tubman.

Minda Harts: 15:19 15:24 And oftentimes I think about what if they chose to remain silent?

Minda Harts: 15:24 15:25 Right.

Minda Harts: 15:25 15:26 What if they chose to remain silent?

Minda Harts: 15:26 15:30 Then none of us would have benefited from their courage.

Minda Harts: 15:30 15:30 Right.

Minda Harts: 15:30 15:33 And so when I when I I challenge women to think about

Minda Harts: 15:34 15:36 Okay, maybe you're afraid, right?

Minda Harts: 15:36 15:38 But let your curiosity be larger than your fear.

Minda Harts: 15:38 15:43 Know that somebody's freedom is tied to your voice, right?

Minda Harts: 15:43 15:57 And for me, that really, I look at things so much differently, thinking about the future generations that are counting on us to set the tone and to dismantle some of these systems of oppression so that they have it better, right?

Minda Harts: 15:57 16:08 And we may not be able to benefit from that, but we know the work that we do, the voices, the things that we choose to speak on, the actions that we take, they'll benefit from a better workplace.

Minda Harts: 16:08 16:13 And I think about those women and others that came before us, they chose that, right?

Minda Harts: 16:13 16:21 And we get to choose that same thing because it's, again, not about us, it's about making it better for the future us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:21 16:22 Absolutely.

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:22 16:25 That legacy that we're leaving behind, thinking about that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:25 16:32 And I like that, that you have those two women, they're very important to you and they kind of drive how you.

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:33 16:57 Move in the world and I think that that's something I think that's something that we all can take away finally is one woman one black woman one woman of color that resonates with you that stands for what you stand for and keep that at the forefront and Remember her think about her, you know tap into her daily as as you're moving through to say, okay let me draw on their strength and the

Deneen L. Garrett: 16:59 17:01 Black girls who track or something like that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:01 17:06 I think I have the name wrong, but there's a million black women who've come together through girl track.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:06 17:07 I think that's it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:07 17:08 Girl track.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:08 17:12 And they had the 21 day black history boot camp.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:12 17:14 They had it a couple of different times.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:14 17:19 And I learned about women, black women and some black men that I hadn't

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:20 17:23 known about, and that I didn't necessarily know their story.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:23 17:27 And that was such a great learning, such as Audre Lorde.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:27 17:42 And, you know, and just some other people in, you know, just prompted me to go and buy a book from Audre Lorde to learn more, to really tap into them, because some of them, they probably wish that they didn't, you know, that they could just sit back and enjoy life.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:42 17:44 but they didn't.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:44 17:47 They made a choice and they made a choice to think about other people.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:47 17:55 And we have that choice, as you said, we have that choice, either just do you and be about you or do you that benefits others.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:55 17:58 And I personally choose to do me that benefits others.

Deneen L. Garrett: 17:58 18:02 And obviously you do, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:02 18:06 You created an entire mission, your company around that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:06 18:09 So speaking of that, I know that there was an incident

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:10 18:15 That you had experienced at a company and that prompted you to say, you know what?

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:15 18:15 This is it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:15 18:16 This is enough.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:16 18:18 I'm up out of here.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:18 18:26 And from there, you started writing the memo or had already started the memo and then it moved into a book moved into your podcast.

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:28 18:37 Would you recommend other people that when they hit a ceiling for them to go into entrepreneurship or do they stay, you know, do we stay and we fight it out?

Deneen L. Garrett: 18:37 18:41 Or at what point do we make a decision to move on?

Minda Harts: 18:42 18:44 Yeah, that's a great question.

Minda Harts: 18:44 18:53 You know, so for me, the reason really why I created the memo and wrote the book and have the podcast is because I want us to be able to stay.

Minda Harts: 18:53 18:57 You know, I want us to be able to find the tables that work for us.

Minda Harts: 18:57 18:57 Right.

Minda Harts: 18:57 19:06 But I don't want us to try to make everything work, because I think Black women, we have like these advanced degrees and trying to make everything work.

Minda Harts: 19:06 19:09 And that's going to kill us early.

Minda Harts: 19:09 19:09 You know what I mean?

Deneen L. Garrett: 19:11 19:15 P-S-D-N.

Minda Harts: 19:15 19:19 So I'm here to say, listen, sis, you've worked very hard, right?

Minda Harts: 19:19 19:22 I don't want you to lean out, but maybe it's another table, right?

Minda Harts: 19:22 19:24 Maybe it's the one across the street.

Minda Harts: 19:24 19:27 And maybe it is creating your own, right?

Minda Harts: 19:27 19:32 Like for me, I saw there was a need for this type of content.

Minda Harts: 19:32 19:33 And so that allowed me to create.

Minda Harts: 19:35 19:36 the space for it.

Minda Harts: 19:36 19:39 But, you know, not to say that I'd never go back to corporate America.

Minda Harts: 19:39 19:42 You know, that's that's always something that could happen, too.

Minda Harts: 19:42 19:45 But it's one of those things where we got to make it better for us.

Minda Harts: 19:45 19:46 We are going to want to leave.

Minda Harts: 19:46 19:47 Right.

Minda Harts: 19:47 19:56 And too many of us have, you know, spent money on schooling and certifications and put in the work in the time that we we should be able to make that choice.

Minda Harts: 19:56 19:58 It should not be a forced thing.

Minda Harts: 19:58 20:03 And I think so many of us are hit our hit our like, oh, my God, I get to get out of here.

Minda Harts: 20:03 20:04 And that shouldn't be

Minda Harts: 20:05 20:07 We should have an option, right?

Minda Harts: 20:07 20:08 And that's what I'm saying.

Minda Harts: 20:08 20:17 We have options and we have to hold companies accountable for not driving us all out to entrepreneurship because we need black women in every space of business.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:18 20:18 Absolutely.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:18 20:20 And they need us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:20 20:21 Yeah, you know, they need us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:21 20:30 And, you know, and they off, they wake up, and they know it, and they realize it, but they don't always want to say it out loud, because they don't want to give us that power.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:30 20:31 Right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:31 20:34 They don't want to, you know, let us know how valuable we are.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:34 20:37 But that's where we have to recognize it for ourselves and see it in one another.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:37 20:38 and call it out.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:38 20:40 And I'm like, I see you, sis.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:40 20:42 You're doing good there.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:42 20:44 And we have to do that for one another.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:44 20:47 And that's part of something that you talk about a lot.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:47 20:50 And I love it when I see it holding space.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:50 20:53 You talk a lot about holding space for others.

Deneen L. Garrett: 20:53 20:55 Talk to me more about what that means.

Minda Harts: 20:57 21:03 Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because I'm also still grappling, too, with what it means to hold space.

Minda Harts: 21:03 21:10 But what I will say is, allowing us to have the space to even talk about what's happened to us in our experiences, right?

Minda Harts: 21:10 21:12 The good, the bad, the ugly.

Minda Harts: 21:12 21:18 And I think, again, for so long, I think we've just kind of had that stoic, strong black woman.

Minda Harts: 21:18 21:20 We don't talk about some of the things that we're dealing with.

Minda Harts: 21:20 21:23 And so, you know, the work that I do is saying, hey,

Minda Harts: 21:24 21:25 I see you.

Minda Harts: 21:25 21:26 I know this hurts.

Minda Harts: 21:26 21:31 I know you should have had that promotion five years ago, and it hasn't happened.

Minda Harts: 21:31 21:40 You know, all of these things are real, but let's talk about what that healing looks like, and let's talk about where are the spaces that you can plant yourself so you can grow.

Minda Harts: 21:40 22:07 you know and I think that's the part where we just because we're like the doer of all things we get stuff done we make it work we don't have this we don't take the time to say whoa what is it that I want what does success look like for me and so and giving ourselves permission to explore and interrogate what that really looks like and so that's what I mean by kind of this holding space like saying hey let's hit the pause button for a second what do you want for you for what does success mean to

Minda Harts: 22:08 22:13 Not what mama said, not what daddy said, not what Forbes said, but what does it look like for you?

Minda Harts: 22:13 22:16 Do you even want to be in the C-suite?

Minda Harts: 22:16 22:18 Do you want to be an individual contributor?

Minda Harts: 22:18 22:27 You get to define what success looks like for you, but know that you also can't secure any seat if you're not right within.

Minda Harts: 22:27 22:32 So let's hold that space and let's figure out what a healthy career looks like.

Deneen L. Garrett: 22:36 22:37 Absolutely.

Deneen L. Garrett: 22:37 22:45 And so, you know, when you just said, said something to make me think about, because I know how you are a lover of grits and rap lyrics and I'm like, okay, Lauryn Hill.

Minda Harts: 22:45 22:51 I had to stop myself.

Minda Harts: 22:51 22:52 I was going to go there.

Minda Harts: 22:52 22:54 I was like, I won't go there.

Minda Harts: 22:54 22:55 I will, I will fight it.

Minda Harts: 22:55 22:56 But yes, you heard it come through.

Deneen L. Garrett: 22:57 22:59 But you know what, that's real life though.

Deneen L. Garrett: 22:59 23:01 That's real life, that's real talk.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:01 23:07 And so when you were speaking, and it's also funny to me that you tapped on healing.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:07 23:12 And it's funny in a sense that my conversations in November, everybody talked about healing.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:12 23:17 And so I said, you know what, this is important and we must stop to heal.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:17 23:23 We must stop and look within, get right within, right with ourselves before we can even

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:23 23:25 be of use for other people.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:25 23:28 And that is so extremely important.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:28 23:35 So again, I love whenever, you know, you mentioned holding space and just that space and just reminding us to be still.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:35 23:44 And I think you even last week reflected on that for yourself, you know, because you're constantly moving and you recognize that, you know what, I need to pause.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:47 23:48 Because you do, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:48 23:50 Because you are needed.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:50 23:52 You know, we appreciate you.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:52 23:56 We love what you're doing for us because you are able to go in those rooms.

Deneen L. Garrett: 23:56 24:03 You recognize that you have a privilege to be able to go to a large corporation, to a huge brand to say, hey, you know,

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:04 24:16 this, that and the other, you know, you're able to say those things, the things that, you know, we want to say, we may not necessarily have the courage to say it just yet and or we've said it, but they just haven't heard us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:16 24:19 Right.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:19 24:21 And likely and often we've said it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:22 24:23 Numerous times.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:23 24:24 It's been said.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:24 24:26 It's been said.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:26 24:27 But they didn't really hear us, though.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:27 24:29 They didn't hear us and they didn't see us.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:29 24:30 So then we need Minda.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:30 24:34 So yes, go ahead and take that break, that time that you need it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:35 24:37 that you need, you're welcome.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:37 24:38 And so I want to pivot.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:38 24:44 And so part of, so we were scheduled to talk November 5.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:44 24:51 And we did, we're having technical difficulties, but I wasn't in the mindset to work through those.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:51 24:58 Because my sister had died and the Saturday, the few days later, you know, we were having her service.

Deneen L. Garrett: 24:58 25:03 Anyway, so my sister author and poet soul true, she wrote a book Dreams Deferred in 2012.

Deneen L. Garrett: 25:04 25:12 And after her passing on 10-24 this year, I read her memoir and I started thinking about, is there anything that's deferring my dream?

Deneen L. Garrett: 25:12 25:23 And so not only did I think about this for myself, but I wanted to be able to encourage other people to start thinking about it for themselves and then to do something about it.

Deneen L. Garrett: 25:23 25:27 So let me, has there been a time that you've had a dream deferred?

Deneen L. Garrett: 25:27 25:29 And if yes, what have you done about it?

Minda Harts: 25:30 25:56 yeah again you know condolences to you and that's such a beautiful way to memorialize her through in investigating what that is and um i would say my dream deferred was actually um before i started and wrote the memo uh you know i was in corporate and that was what i wanted to do danine you know that was the thing right that i want my seat at the table this is what i worked hard for and that's what i had planned on doing but

Minda Harts: 25:57 26:04 Due to situations beyond my control, I stepped away and I created the memo.

Minda Harts: 26:04 26:07 But so I felt at the time that was my dream deferred, right?

Minda Harts: 26:07 26:11 I'm like, oh, racism, all the things have stunted this dream.

Minda Harts: 26:11 26:13 And now I have to put it on on hold.

Minda Harts: 26:13 26:22 But what I realized was, I was able to take what I thought was a dream deferred in a tragedy.

Minda Harts: 26:22 26:24 Um, and turn it into a triumph.

Minda Harts: 26:24 26:27 And I was able to take that deferred dream.

Minda Harts: 26:27 26:34 And even though I don't work in corporate in the way that I used to, I'm still working in corporate.

Minda Harts: 26:34 26:38 I was able to turn my dream into, into a new reality.

Minda Harts: 26:39 26:44 And I think that that sometimes when we're in the situation, we can't see the full picture.

Minda Harts: 26:44 26:54 And I think sometimes, you know, we feel like it's deferred, we feel like it's stalled, but knowing that there's a new way to kind of look at the situation, we may just get there a little bit differently.

Minda Harts: 26:54 27:02 So I do think my path right now is, it was a deferred dream, but it's turned into a new type of dream.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:03 27:03 Yeah, and you know what?

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:03 27:09 And honestly, it's turned into, I'm sure I'm correct in saying it's a more impactful.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:10 27:10 Right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:10 27:12 You're having more impact on more people.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:12 27:14 I mean, millions, right?

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:14 27:28 Of people, people who are reading the memo, people who are listening to your podcast, you're having much more impact that way and being able to affect these different corporations and how they think about people.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:28 27:35 Because honestly, my thing is, if a company doesn't want to have you, then they're not really interested in making changes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:36 27:42 Because you're real talk, and you're coming, and you're bringing the real real to the corporation.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:42 27:43 And I felt that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:43 27:55 So if a person doesn't want you, and I think you even said that if your company doesn't have a diversity and inclusion organization, that's telling right there.

Deneen L. Garrett: 27:55 28:04 So where I'm at is for those that do have D&I, and they're not interested in having you come talk, then they're not really interested in making any changes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 28:05 28:07 Yep, well said.

Deneen L. Garrett: 28:07 28:25 So, Minda, as we wrap, and like I said, I've been waiting to talk to you, and I could talk to you forever, but I know you just got off your LinkedIn Live, you know, you probably have something else going on later in the day, and so much you're trying to get caught up, you know, done, but before November ends, but what would you like to leave our listeners with?

Minda Harts: 28:27 28:28 Yeah.

Minda Harts: 28:28 28:31 You know, again, I just thank you for your platform.

Minda Harts: 28:31 28:37 I thank you for giving voice to sometimes many of us who don't feel like we have one.

Minda Harts: 28:37 28:40 And the one thing I just want to let people know is that

Minda Harts: 28:43 28:45 we can be part of the solution.

Minda Harts: 28:45 28:48 And it's small acts of courage that get us there.

Minda Harts: 28:48 28:56 You know, oftentimes people, if they're just learning about me, they might say, oh, you know, look at what Minda's doing right now, but know that it didn't happen overnight, right?

Minda Harts: 28:56 29:00 It took small, small acts of courage to get to this place.

Minda Harts: 29:00 29:04 And there's still much more that I have to do and encourage that I have to lean into.

Minda Harts: 29:04 29:07 So figure out what courage looks like.

Minda Harts: 29:08 29:12 for you and approach it from that slice, right?

Minda Harts: 29:12 29:15 So if it's having a conversation with your manager, right?

Minda Harts: 29:15 29:24 If it's someone microaggressed you on a Zoom call, you know, giving yourself permission to have that conversation with them in a way, if it bothers you enough, right?

Minda Harts: 29:24 29:36 So as we finish up the year, as we go into the new year, think about what it looks like to be courageous and how will your future self thank you for doing that and not just your future self, but future generations.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:37 29:38 I love that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:38 29:39 I absolutely do.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:39 29:45 Small acts of courage, start somewhere and make that difference for yourself and for others.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:45 29:50 Minda Hurts, thank you so much for lending your voice on an intimate conversation with women of color.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:50 29:52 Enjoy the rest of your day.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:52 29:53 You're welcome.

Deneen L. Garrett: 29:53 29:53 Bye.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:02 30:10 Thank you for listening to another episode of an intimate conversation with women of color.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:10 30:12 I enjoyed today's conversation.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:12 30:14 We talked about several things.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:14 30:17 I wanted to really just kick back and have a conversation.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:17 30:19 And we did that.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:19 30:27 We did talk a lot about holding space, which is another form of healing, which has been the theme for the last several episodes.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:27 30:29 So women,

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:30 30:33 Everybody out there listening, take care of yourself.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:33 30:37 Do what you need to do to heal, to be the best version of yourself.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:37 30:42 Because in order to be the best for other people, you have to have yourself together.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:42 30:50 You have to be right within, as Minda said, and as Lauren Hill sings about.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:50 30:56 So thank you again for being a listener of an intimate conversation with women of color.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:56 30:57 Continue to listen.

Deneen L. Garrett: 30:57 30:59 Subscribe if you haven't done so.

Deneen L. Garrett: 31:00 31:01 and share.

Deneen L. Garrett: 31:01 31:12 My vision is to elevate the voices of women of color, to impact us, to give us a platform, and in order to reach more and more women, that's where you come in.

Deneen L. Garrett: 31:12 31:15 I need your help to make that happen.

Deneen L. Garrett: 31:15 31:20 So thank you again, and enjoy the rest of your day.