Predicting Relationship Success; John Gottman and the Four Horseman

Randi: 0:14

Welcome back to the Women's Mental Health Podcast with Randi and Jess. We're two licensed psychotherapists and we talk about mental health, wellbeing, and strategies for coping with life's up and down challenges.

Jess: 0:26

And how it's all normal and you're not alone.

Randi: 0:29

Today we're diving into a topic that affects the heart of our relationships. The renowned psychologist John Gottman and the Four Horsemen.

Jess: 0:37

This is your safe space to explore topics that matter to strong, resilient women like you. Who are seeking emotional balance and mental wellness.

Randi: 0:46

Find us and more resources on womensmentalhealthpodcast.com. Have you

Jess: 0:52

ever had these thoughts?

Randi: 0:54

Who exactly is Dr. John Gottman?

Jess: 0:56

Tell me more about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. What

Randi: 0:59

are they? How does criticism harm a relationship? Contempt

Jess: 1:03

seems intense. Why is it such a big deal?

Randi: 1:06

How does defensiveness impact relationships?

Jess: 1:09

What's the lowdown on stonewalling?

Randi: 1:11

Can I avoid the Four Horsemen? Let's define Dr. Gottman and the Four Horsemen and discover how they can impact our mental health.

Jess: 1:20

Dr. John Gottman is a pioneer in couples therapy. He developed the concept of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and he's using it to describe destructive communication patterns in relationships.

Randi: 1:34

These horsemen are criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. The four horsemen of the apocalypse is a metaphor depicting the end of times in the New Testament. They describe conquest, war, hunger, and death, respectively. Gottman uses this metaphor to describe communication styles that can predict the end of a relationship.

Jess: 1:57

Dr. Gottman use this metaphor in a way to highlight how these negative behaviors can erode the foundation of a relationship, just like the biblical horseman heralding the end of a world. from what I know, Gottman uses this, it does reference Christianity and the Bible but it is not a Christian based therapy. But where did these sneaky little devils come from?

Randi: 2:22

Well, John Gottman's research on relationship dynamics revealed that these behaviors are like toxic habits that creep in and wreak havoc on our emotional well being. The concept of the four horsemen emerged from decades of research by him and his team. They observed couples and identified these patterns as predictions of relationship dissatisfaction and eventual breakup and even divorce.

Jess: 2:47

It's not just a theoretical idea. It's not just something based out of revelations it is based on extensive real world research that Dr. Gottman did and so let's explore how these horsemen affect women's mental

Randi: 3:02

health. Right. And I love the fact that they really did the scientific research on it. Mm hmm. So the four horsemen can have a profound impact on women's mental health. Women often value emotional connection and communication above all. And so these negative behaviors can really affect a relationship. They can leave us feeling unheard. Unimportant and questioning our own self worth.

Jess: 3:29

And as we have said in previous podcasts, if you also have rejection sensitivity dysphoria, this can be so detrimental because it just makes it even

Randi: 3:41

worse. Right. Because when we're met with criticism time and time again, it really chips away at our self esteem and If we feel contempt in a relationship, it can make you feel utterly devastated and alone.

Jess: 3:57

And the defensiveness that can create this cycle of blame and resentment, it just keeps going in this Randy's favorite word, sometimes this cycle, it just keeps going and going and going. stonewalling, as we discussed in a previous episode, can really make us as women feel unheard and rejected.

Randi: 4:17

That's why it's so crucial that we address these toxic patterns in our life and don't allow these horsemen to take over. Mm hmm.

Jess: 4:25

As all of this accumulates, these behaviors lead to increased stress and anxiety and depression which can have serious long term consequences. On our mental

Randi: 4:37

health and physical health as well, because if you're feeling stress or your body hurts and all these things cause there's a lot of physical symptoms that come with mental health. It can just leave you so drained. So how do we cope with these nasty four horsemen if they're creeping into our relationship and laughing?

Jess: 4:57

Cause she's like the four horsemen. I can just see them creeping around the hall

Randi: 5:00

now,

Jess: 5:01

right? So when we're facing with these toxic patterns It's really important to understand what they are so that we can take proactive steps to counteract their impact. We have to be aware of it. So

Randi: 5:15

recognizing when these behaviors emerge and trying to address them right away with your partner in a calm and constructive manner using healthy communication or seeking couples therapy. And also, like I said, working on strong communication skills. Active listening and a lot of empathy, these tools can help counter effect the negative effects of those four horsemen. I think

Jess: 5:41

empathy is a really hard one for people to kind of understand. It is it's hard to say put yourself in their shoes. You don't have to have the same experience as anybody else. to still have empathy for them.

Randi: 5:54

Yeah. I think sometimes we say, Oh, you should walk a mile in somebody's shoes so you can understand, but you don't have to, to understand. You can still have compassion for where somebody else has been. I think

Jess: 6:07

people get sympathy and empathy mixed up a lot. You don't have to feel sorry for them. You just have to have an open heart and some understanding that maybe they're going through something that's hard or something that's difficult.

Randi: 6:20

It's essential to focus on open communication. Replace criticism with constructive... Feedback and communication, compassion instead of contempt, accountability over defensiveness, and active listening instead of stonewalling.

Jess: 6:37

That's hard. Active listening. Most... These are all hard. Yeah, it's true. It's all hard. If you're already formulating a response to what somebody is currently saying, what that means is you are not listening to them. And so when you're having a conversation, you shouldn't be going, okay, I'm going to say this and this and this. If you are truly listening to somebody actively, it means you're not formulating a thought. You're not trying to formulate a sentence. It means you take a breath, count for 10 seconds afterwards, and then have the conversation.

Randi: 7:09

Yeah. And especially being ADHD, if I'm in like a heated argument and I want to get ahead of it, and I want to make sure I formulated and I get out what I want to say. say, and then I'm like 20 steps ahead of how I'm gonna cut him off at the knees. And then I'm like, okay, this is not helping. I need to back up, chill out, listen to what he's saying. So I can respond in a healthier way. And this doesn't you know, explode in our faces. so Jess, what are examples of how we can replace criticism with constructive feedback and communication?

Jess: 7:46

When we talk about criticism, that's when we're verbally attacking someone's personality or character. And really what we want to do is we want to have a gentle startup. Talk about your feelings using I statements and express a positive need. And that can sound like, instead of saying, you never arrive on time. Now nobody's going to talk to you nicely because they're already upset and it would be more like it's really Important to me that we're able to make the reservations on time,

Randi: 8:18

right? Or I get anxious when we are late and that triggers me to feel this way Can we try to do this together? Yeah, to be on time. You see how that pattern changes and how, if you were approached with that, think of that, like you're sitting across from somebody and they're talking to you like that. As soon as Jess said you're never on time I'm thinking, oh, shit God, I am never on time and my anxiety is shot up when she said that I'm thinking like, I'm always late or it could

Jess: 8:53

be that the partner goes, well, this is your fault that we're always late instead when Randy said it kicks up, my anxiety is like, Oh, okay. I get that. Right. I get that. Let's go ahead and try to leave early. Cause I don't want you anxious. That led to more

Randi: 9:05

empathy, more compassion, more understanding and opened up that communication why this is happening. And it just, it just took a whole other beautiful and other winding path instead of one that we're on. Ended up exploding in your face. Yeah. How do we replace contempt with compassion?

Jess: 9:25

when we look at contempt, contempt is a form of hiding. It's like saying I'm just telling it like it is instead of understanding the other person or having empathy.

Randi: 9:34

So when you are feeling contempt, you're not expressing you're not expressing your true feelings and your wants. You think you're expressing it, but it's coming out like in a very negative

Jess: 9:49

way. So like anger or disgust or

Randi: 9:52

hostility. Yeah. So maybe like. oh my God, I can't believe like you made coffee for yourself and not me,

Jess: 9:58

they end up using put downs or insults acting superior. Like it's a way of I'm much better than

Randi: 10:05

you, right? Why can't you be more like me? And I feel like a lot of parents use that with kids too. Like why can't you be, and that's really hard being ADHD and neurodivergent and being married to somebody who's not. Because for like 15 years, he was like, I don't understand why you do these things. And I was like, no, he understands. But I'm like, I still am constantly educating him on why I do things the way I do. And he's just learned to live with it. But a lot of people it can be a source of contempt, like that they don't organize like they do, or they don't clean like they do, or they don't finish things like they do, or cook like they do, or do laundry like they do, like those little things can add up

Jess: 10:50

It's so funny cause my husband he's latest thing in the last couple of years is, is that what we're doing now? Okay. Because of my ADHD as he understands it. And so really it's important when you're trying to connect with your partner to show the affection and recognize their strengths instead of showing contempt.

Randi: 11:08

it's important to really. use clear statements when communicating what you're feeling like. I'm mad. I'm sad. I'm lonely. I'm scared. And Repair that with a request of what you want. Like I would like this like I'm mad I would like it if you did this instead and an invitation. What do you think about that? Do you think that would be possible?

Jess: 11:34

Oh, that's such a therapy line right there or

Randi: 11:36

can we talk about this? Oh, no, no, no. No, no, no, never mind. Don't say that. Don't say that.

Jess: 11:41

I hate when people say we need to talk Do we? Do we really need to talk? It's almost like when people say, what are you doing on Sunday? And you're like,

Randi: 11:48

fuck, I don't know. We need to talk about this right now.

Jess: 11:51

Yeah. Or you're like, I don't know. I might be doing something. Why? What do you want? Yeah. And then they're like, Oh, well, since you're free, can you do this? You're like, No, no, no. I didn't want to do that at all. let's talk about defensiveness. That's the last piece of the four horseman that we haven't talked about yet. With defensiveness, it really is a way of victimizing yourself to ward off perceived attacks. It's just basically you're reversing the blame. So an example of the defensiveness, when somebody is talking about, like we were talking about earlier about being late, it would say something like, well, you're always late, so what does it matter? That would be being defensive. Instead, you really should just take responsibility and say you're right. I was totally late and it was totally my fault. I'm going to try harder next time, or maybe we can meet some other time that's better for both of us.

Randi: 12:40

Right. It's important to note that without accountability, there is no change. So when you hold yourself accountable. You're opening up the pathway of healing and change. Denying that you did something never leads anybody to believe that you didn't do it. You can deny all you want, but that person is still going to think what they're going to think. Especially if they're upset, it only teaches the person that you're not willing to be accountable. And bridge that gap with them.

Jess: 13:15

Oh man. That reminds me. So last year, the year before one of the girls on my daughter's soccer team, I won't say her name. I call her mean girl. She, let's not

Randi: 13:25

even, let's just scratch out soccer team. Let's just say an example. Oh, I'm okay. If she knows, Oh

Jess: 13:30

no, I'm all right. So anyway, last year she was talking about my daughter and not being very nice about it. And so I was trying to teach my daughter how to gently confront and talk about it because she was pretty upset. And so I talked to the girl in front of her mother and I said, Hey, I hear that you have been saying some things about my daughter and I said, I would appreciate it if you stop. And she said, I haven't said anything. I said, no, you have, this is what has been said, and it's been brought to me by a few people who are credible.

Randi: 14:02

Yeah, it's not hearsay. It's not

Jess: 14:04

hearsay. It's been repeated multiple times. And I said, you need to stop. I said, you need to stop being a mean girl and need to stop talking about other people on your team. She denied it. The mom said, I'll address it. Okay, great. Now it's like two years later and we've had another incident not my daughter this time. with that same girl saying mean stuff. And you know what? We didn't even address it with the girl because we already know she's going to deny it. That's just who she is. She's not going to own up to it and she's just going to deny it. So we were like, yeah, okay, whatever. She's just a mean girl. And it isn't that we're letting her get away with it, but we're just crediting her for anything she says. Right. And now has

Randi: 14:41

that rep. It's kind of like the old, what is that an Aesop's fable? Like the boy who cried woof. Yes. Like somebody who uses. That defensiveness or like meanness over and over again. And you've tried to bridge that gap. You've tried to communicate with them. Mm-hmm. you've tried to let them know that they're hurting you, and you're just met with that defensiveness over and over again. And no willingness. Accountability. No accountability. The accountability and hold themselves responsible. There's no self-growth there and so they're gonna stay stagnant while everybody else moves on. without them. And that's why this is so destructive in a relationship. Because if you're met with that defensiveness or that stonewalling or that contempt or that criticism time and time again, where is there to go?

Jess: 15:29

Eventually you just don't have that friend or that person in your life anymore. And that's something we did with this example was that she, she's not somebody that we want. My, my daughter or her friend wants in her life. Because that's what she does.

Randi: 15:42

And that's why this scientific research predicts 95 percent of divorces.

Jess: 15:47

Right. So this, this was a breakup because she's no longer part of the friend group because we already know how she is. And like, Oh yeah, she's a mean girl.

Randi: 15:55

Isn't that awful? And I feel like this is important to not only teach ourselves about this, but teach our kids about this and their relationships they're developing. Because like you said, this can come up with colleagues and work environments at schools, high school with girls, boys, sports, these type of negative toxic behaviors that are indicative of Healthy or unhealthy relationships. Mm hmm.

Jess: 16:23

And so when we talk about how to support friends or family with this it's really important to be a compassionate listener. Being able to create a safe place for them to share their feelings or concerns without judgment is so important. And again, that conversation wouldn't have come up. If I didn't create a safe place for my friends or my family to be able to have that conversation with me about what was going on in our, you know, in our lives or their lives. Yeah.

Randi: 16:53

Because defensiveness, these things, they push people away. That's the, that's the end game of this.

Jess: 17:00

So in going back to couples, it's really important to seek professional help. Really a good couples therapist they have Gottman therapists and they study this for a reason also, if you go onto their website, the Gottman Institute. They actually will have online courses that you and your partner can do together to kind of explore your communication styles and to address this. If somebody is like, I don't want to go to couples, can we just do it on our own? There are ways that they can do it on their own. So it's really cool that they've created this whole therapy approach to it. Right, that's

Randi: 17:38

easily accessible because I feel like a lot of people don't have easy access to these resources Or we're so busy or we're working We don't find the time to connect or even deal with these things that are happening in our life and our relationships And so if we can have easier access to this stuff and We'll link up to this research on our website, womansmentalhealthpodcast. com. So you guys can go and check it out.

Jess: 18:04

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Women's Mental Health Podcast, where we've explored John Gottman's theory of the four horsemen, its effects on women's mental health and strategies for coping with these destructive behaviors.

Randi: 18:17

If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe like, follow, and share it with friends who might benefit and leave us a review. We're here to support you on your journey to improve mental health and healthier relationships.

Jess: 18:31

Until next time, remember that nurturing your mental health is essential and there's always hope for healthier, happier relationships.

Randi: 18:39

Take care of yourselves, uplift one another, and Always remember that you have the power to prioritize your mental health. Stay strong, beautiful souls.