15: Personal Branding for the Nonprofit Professional (Yvonne Levine)

spk_0:   0:03
Welcome to your path to nonprofit leadership, the weekly podcast featuring the very best in productivity and professional development in the nonprofit sector. I'm your host. Patent McDowell. My goal is to make sure each episode gives you ideas and actionable advice that you can use on your journey down the nonprofit path. Before we get into this episode, a couple of reminders. Be sure to subscribe to the PATH podcast. If you haven't already, we are available on nearly every pod gas platform. So pick your favorite and join us on. Feel free to share this episode and others with folks that you know in the nonprofit sector, who perhaps are like you looking for advice on professional development and productivity on their leadership journey. Also check out our website patent McDowell dot com, as we have expanded the podcast section as well as our featuring each episode, and it's guest in a little bit more in depth manner so that you can get more information about the folks that we are featuring. In in particular, the resource is that they suggest each time this episode features you von Levine from y G L Enterprises, who is perfectly suited to help us consider professional development, in particular personal branding. As we aspire to nonprofit leadership, you've on coaches, individuals and businesses in personal branding, particularly the leaders. And she's gonna help us better understand what exactly is personal branding and why it is important to nonprofit professionals on their leadership path. When should we start paying attention to this as a professional? How do we pay attention to this and what do we do about it? And most importantly, how do we help someone else, perhaps in our organization whose personal brand does indeed elevate that brand of our organization? All of our individual brands, of course, come together to bring together that image that we want our nonprofit to convey. So indeed, this is important for everyone in the organization. So without further ado, enjoy this conversation with you. Yvonne Levine. You've on Thank you for joining me on the path.

spk_1:   2:30
Well, thank you, pet. And I'm thrilled to be a part of your podcast.

spk_0:   2:34
I'm excited to have you. We've had great conversations over the years about many aspects of leadership and marketing, and are both of our cases are work with some nonprofit folks. Obviously, your work is not exclusively with nonprofits, but you've had great experiences both from project work and as a volunteer. But why don't we start with your leadership journey? A CZ We speak to many those that are listening who are coming from the nonprofit community.

spk_1:   3:04
Well, sure. You know, I was thinking about this patent. I got involved with nonprofits very early in my career, and I have to thank um, an early boss who believes strongly that young professionals should go in, find passion outside of work. And she was the one who came to me and said, Find an organization you're interested in and get involved. I started on a board. Ah, young affiliates board of an art association. Ah, that wanted to promote the arts to other young people like Mae and I caught the bug of and I've been, you know, involved with nonprofits throughout, Um, my wife since then, Um you know, most recently here in Charlotte, I was involved with the Carolina Rapture Center and with Generation Nation, which, of course, that's how you and I met.

spk_0:   4:06
Your marketing and consulting experience has evolved over your different experiences as a professional. Tell me about the work you do now consulting and coaching and what not?

spk_1:   4:20
Yes. So back in 2008 I decided to leave the corporate world and strike out on my own. And I knew that I wanted to stay in the marketing space and that I really love marketing strategy. So I work with small and midsized businesses. Primary primarily, um, including some nonprofits, uh, to help them define their marketing strategy for the organization. Um, and I have found that many times most businesses, including on profits, waste a lot of money and time on tactics because they really don't understand the importance of a solid marketing strategy. And that's Ah, where my focus lies is helping businesses get a better return on their investment and achieving their goals.

spk_0:   5:18
I love that, and you and I have talked about where nonprofit. Sometimes I don't know if they fully dismiss marketing, but they don't consider it a core effort. And, as you know better than anyone, if your marketing strategy is not clear, you're certainly not going to serve the population your nonprofit intends to serve. Nor are you gonna get the message out and help raise funds

spk_1:   5:43
exactly and you know, so many times there's just the focus on a tactic, particularly a trendy tactic. You know, somebody hears about how we should be doing video or we should be on Facebook or Twitter. Well, that may be, but then again, it may not be. It depends on your goals, and it depends on your target audience. And you have to do a lot of, um, hard homework first before you picked the tactic.

spk_0:   6:14
Yeah, I could not agree more on that. Strategic focus helps answer questions like that before we just react to the latest fad on social media. Certainly gives us plenty of fads and ideas, not all of which are relevant, given the time and energy we have to devote to them. Exactly. Um, is, you know, this podcast has a few feature two questions for my guest experts like yourself. Um, and it's a particular emphasis on productivity and as a project manager that you have to be managing clients and activities and things in your life. Do you have a few technologies or tactics or tricks that you used to help stay organized?

spk_1:   6:59
Absolutely. Um, the But I guess my number one tactic is that I try every day to sit down in review my daily schedule as well as looking at the rest of the week. Right? You've got to do that because you've got to think through What task do I need to complete that are a must on the day, but also other task that take you into the rest of the week. So I'm a big advocate of scheduling reminders. I use outlook. I know there's lots of programs, but my schedule reminders all the time for key tasks. So I don't for yet, um, something important, whether it's a meeting or project. And I guess, well, it helps me because I will tell you, you know, the older I get, the more from forgetful, I guess. So, I've got to do something, Um, and then the only thing that I do because e mails and text or flying back and forth all the time in particular, if I have agreed to meet with somebody or to talk over the phone, I don't leave that sitting in my inbox or, um, in my messages, you know, be a text. I get it on my calendar right away, because if I don't I'll forget about it.

spk_0:   8:32
So your calendar is, in essence, your task manager. Is that fair? To say

spk_1:   8:37
that is very fair to say, Um and even if I have put a meeting on my calendar, if the requester has asked me to have a meeting but didn't send me an invite, I'll go ahead and send the invite back, because that way we're both on the same page and nobody waste time.

spk_0:   9:00
Very smart, certainly not exclusive to the nonprofit industry. But the flurry of activity can quickly be lost on our calendars, and that is a recipe for falling behind in a hurry if we don't keep up, Um, well, productivity, maybe something we circle back to among several professional development topics. But you've on you make a wonderful case for, and I'll let you describe more fully the concept of personal branding, which I think is fascinating and very important for nonprofit leaders who in many cases, of course, they're focused on the mission, the cause that they aspire to to be part of. And so maybe they're not looking at themselves in quote personal branding, but tell us about what do you mean by personal branding and why is it important?

spk_1:   9:52
Well, let let's take a step back first and talk about the definition of a brand. And at its very core, it's a person's perception of a product, a service and experience, or in an organization, taking that one step further. A personal brand is a person's perception of another person, primarily in a business context, right? So the reason why it's important whether you're a nonprofit leader or a corporate leader is that understanding your brand and what you have to offer greatly impacts your influence over others. Achieving goals. Ah, lining with the mission. So for your nonprofit professionals, you've got to understand how your unique talents affect your organization. And you have to play on those strengths on those talents in order to build awareness not only about yourself, but about your nonprofit.

spk_0:   11:13
That's well put. And as much as we want to lead with our nonprofits brand and the good work that we accomplish, often people are going to get to know our organization through individuals, right? And so if I am the representative of my non profit my brand, my reputation is indeed very important

spk_1:   11:33
exactly, and I'll give you a good example. Many years ago, I met Molly Barker of girls on the run. And I am sure for those of you who know Molly, Molly is synonymous with the brand of girls on the run. She is. Ah, And Molly, in my opinion, has done an excellent job of understanding her strengths and promote promoting her unique Gil set, which in turn, has delivered the success of girls on the run.

spk_0:   12:11
There's certain things, Molly, did you think of on early on or throughout her time with girls on the run that you think? I guess both benefited her. But more importantly, benefit of the organization?

spk_1:   12:22
Aye. Dios. I mean, my perception is that, Molly, while I'm sure she had, um, fear, particularly in the beginning of ramping this up the find that she understood her own, calling her own passion. Um, And what message she had to bring to the table allowed her to build up the success of girls on the run.

spk_0:   12:51
Yeah, absolutely. And I it seems, again, my, uh, observations of her use of social media. Um and and you're right. She became synonymous with the organization, but I think lifted up both herself and the organization and has allowed the organization to continue without her or when she's been less actively involved. It certainly, you know, didn't hurt that she had built up the brand that she did.

spk_1:   13:19
Absolutely. And she didn't just do do it through one venue, which will talk about more later on. Ah, components of a personal brands. But let's just leave it as she just didn't issue a statement one day and then let it be,

spk_0:   13:36
that's a good point. There was clearly a strategy that I know you will help us unpack and defined. Um, I guess someone particularly ah, young or new professional might say, Well, you've on When do I start with this? Is that something that I need to focus on as a quote senior professional, but a pose the question directly? When should a professional begin focusing on their personal brand?

spk_1:   14:02
Ideally, as soon as they hit the job market, keep a little before you know, You and I both have, um, Children in college and particularly today, with the vastness of reach within social media, you almost can't ignore that. You have to take control of your brand early, right? Um and I was just talking to my daughter the other day that we need to go ahead and create a LinkedIn profile for her. No, you know, she's not, um, in the job market yet for her profession, but but by her taking the time to think about what she has to offer and to put that on a platform such as LinkedIn where other business professionals view and interact, Um, every day that will give her a leg up on the people, the young people that you know Wait, ah, and think that they don't need to do anything until they're ready to interview for a job. And then they scrambled to put a resume together. Um, and that that's something that I encourage. Everyone don't wait into your back is against the wall of that. Uh oh, no meow moment that I need to get a resume together. Or somebody has asked me to put together a one sheet er about myself, and I don't know where to start and always only and it at it at it and add to as your career progressives

spk_0:   15:56
Yeah, I could not agree more, And I think otherwise. I think young professionals. They're gonna be judged by their other social media output, which you know, maybe more of a personal nature, which again may not be as conducive to getting hired by any organization. So your advice toe even before you finish college toe build that those branding tools, the resume, the linked in profile, other descriptors of your work and potential strikes me is exactly the right time to get started on your personal brand.

spk_1:   16:30
Agreed. And a key point is understand. Everybody has a brand by default. Okay, If you don't embrace your brand, you still have a brand by default. So it's important for you as the individual to showcase what makes you unique. Don't leave that to somebody else. You want to control the narrative. Um, and you want to share the attributes that make you shot. Don't assume that somebody else is going to do it for you

spk_0:   17:08
Well and again in our sector, you've on that. I think there's sometimes a natural modesty, too. Nonprofit work there again. I've used the phrase several times its mission focused servant leaders. So perhaps many in our sector are not comfortable Quote promoting themselves. How would you respond to someone that says, Hey, I just I don't want to kind of blow my own horn that way.

spk_1:   17:34
Well, I think that's natural. You know, society tends to frown on people who brag. You're told by your mom Don't be a braggart, Okay? But, you know, I really believe that there's a fundamental difference between bragging and clearly articulating one's unique strengths. All right, we're not asking you to brag, okay? Yes, particularly if you're in the nonprofit sector and you view yourself. I like the term servant leader. You still have to know yourself, take care of yourself and let people know who you are, because let's face a patent. Everybody likes to know the other person, right? If you just If you're just one dimensional, you're not very interesting. Where if you've let yourself out in the open, people are going to respond to you better Then if you're just, you know ah, face on a website.

spk_0:   18:51
So you're okay with someone being proactive, Obviously, that you want to be authentic and honest in your appraisal, but you'd rather shape your brand and in a positive way. Then let it be shaped for you.

spk_1:   19:06
Yes, and it's very easy to have other shape your brand, and that's not always a good thing, you know? Think about, um, the proliferation of all the review sites. You know, whether it's yelp or trip it by as our or even in certain professions, there their own rating sight. If you're not proactive in shaping your own persona, there could be something negative that somebody else says about you. And if you haven't already established your persona as authentic and responsive, then things could go south quickly. Um, and we all have to realize that

spk_0:   19:58
it's a great point and that technology is only gonna advance that kind of 360 analysis on everybody. And so if you're not ahead of that game, you're gonna fall behind quickly and I think jeopardize your chances for career opportunities and certainly career advancement. Um, you referenced Yvonne earlier that being ready with your resume. In fact, before the first job opportunity emerges, um, what are the other things you can do with components of building a personal brand that you would advise?

spk_1:   20:35
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I am a huge advocate of LinkedIn. Um, as you know, you know, Lincoln is the number one global business platform. Um, there are millions of profiles on LinkedIn, but the percentage of active Lincoln users is much smaller. And I think we need to change that. And what I mean by that is sure you may have put up a profile, um, two years ago and you think you're done? Well, things change. You need to stay current with your LinkedIn profile. You never know who's looking at your profile. That is a big part of your personal brands. Particularly that summary statements. Ah, lot of people ignore that. That is what I call an I statement. It is not to be written in the third person. It is your authentic statement about why you do what you do in a big sense. So that is it a key component? A personal branding? Yes. You should have a good resume. You should also have what would always turnem is the one sheet or where it has your photo and a concise summary. This is who I am. Um, this is what I do for a living. This is what brings me joy and passion personally, um, through outside activities, you know, speakers bio for lack of a better term. That's another component of personal branding. Well, you know it's important because as leaders, you should be asked to speak periodically and you will be asked for information. Don't wait till the last minute to send it to somebody, all right, because it's not gonna truly reflect. Um, your talents, um you won't be able to shine through is a real person.

spk_0:   22:52
I think it's a great point. In fact, I've had opportunities and made the mistake of, in a speaking opportunity sending the classic resume. And then you risk the person that introduces you picking and choosing random nuggets from your history, as opposed to a concise description of how you want to be described and introduced to that audience. And so I think that's very smart to just be proactive. And don't let them look up your bio somewhere on social media, have that ready and send it to him so that you're presented in the way you want to be

spk_1:   23:31
exactly. And you know it's okay. Toe have different versions of that speaker bio because it depends on your audience, and you know that's a key part of marketing. Um, you always have to look outward when your marketing, who is your audience and why are they going to Karen or what you have to say depending on the venue impacts the type of information you provide. So if you're speaking to other nonprofit professionals, you may taylor your speakers bio differently than if you're asked to speak in a corporate setting where maybe you're looking for funding from that organization. Uh, you know, so you can't forget about that. You also can't forget about what I call not leadership. And that's, you know, everything from Are you blogging? Are you in any online forums, professional forms? You have to really think about your image within those arenas. And and this all goes back to why you you have to have a true understanding of yourself, um, and what you have to offer so that can shine through on all those venues.

spk_0:   25:01
I think that's so well put. I really believe aspiring nonprofit professionals should constantly be thinking about content creation. As you are suggesting, um, not just kind of forwarding along information. Do you find randomly on the Web but demonstrating that you have knowledge and opinions about topics relevant to your sector? to your industry, and I guess that's exactly what you're suggesting. Why you've on that. Build a library, if you will, of of content, which in essence, reinforces and validates you and your brand.

spk_1:   25:37
Absolutely. And I like your analogy of building a library. That's exactly how you should look at it.

spk_0:   25:44
I think the nonprofit sector in admittedly everyone's busy, Um, but there are topics that need exploration. And many of the nonprofit professionals you and I both know, um, have good things to say. They're on the front line, so to speak. Um, and I think that's just such a good habit, professionally, to write things down, to communicate through whatever medium you use. But as you are suggesting, it also has great benefits for you personally as well as your organization

spk_1:   26:19
into. If you make this a habit, you will gain more confidence, and you will have less fear about promoting yourself because it will come naturally because you've really ah, given careful thought. As you said that you know about different topics and how it relates your audience is how it relates to your organization's own goals and how it relates to your personal goals.

spk_0:   26:51
No you're exactly right. And we've touched on kind of the producing written content for your library. You've also referenced several times to speaking. And I take it that's something you focus with clients and folks that you're coaching. Um, they've got to be comfortable in a public speaking setting. Or is that what you're suggesting there?

spk_1:   27:13
Well, it depends on the person you have to find your voice. You know, most people are not comfortable public speakers, and that's because they haven't had practice. So it's very individualized. Um, but you went on coaching somebody. I'm never gonna force somebody to go out and be a speaker, because, honestly, if the person truly was doesn't want to do it and they're forced to do it, it'll be a real disaster,

spk_0:   27:51
right? Okay. Harm than harm than good, Right? In that point,

spk_1:   27:55
you really can, but, um, you know, through my co chain, you can almost look a look at it as a maybe spiritually journey isn't exactly the right phrase. But I try to get my clients to look at themselves objectively, um, which allows their own true story to come through. And, you know, it's easier for you for example to tell me your story, the need to say to you Oh, hey, Pat and I just need you to like your own story. You just give it to me, all right? It's a two way conversation and, you know, through the coaching process, I'm teasing out bits of information that articulate what your talent star. And then I feed it back to you. And as you grow more comfortable with it, your story flows better. And then I can help you define that true narrative of this is who Pat McDowell is, for example, and then we'll translate it into all those various components. Peeking engagements can be one of them, but certainly we need your, um, offline and online written story of who you are and what you have to offer.

spk_0:   29:33
It's interesting point that you look, you suggest we all have elements, positive elements that can come together to present our brand in our story. But often the conversation you have is what it is necessary to help. Tease that out, and you help it help someone kind of stitch those elements together into a canvas that represents who they are and what they aspire to be

spk_1:   30:00
absolutely, absolutely, you know, think of it as the analogy of brain freeze when when you're forced to take a written test, you know you're nervous that the proctor says go and everything leaves your mind. Well, my job is to make sure you don't have that brain freeze. So when somebody asks, you tell me about yourself and this could be at a networking event. You know your elevator speak, for example. I don't want you to freeze up. I want you to be able naturally, speak about who you are. Ah, and be authentic. So then the person who's listening to your response wants to know more, and that gives you more opportunities to promote your organization and yourself, depending on the venue.

spk_0:   31:01
The elevator speech is such a great way to describe it, and many nonprofits. In fact, almost all I would suggest have talked about their elevator speech as an organization. But I find a lot of individuals Ah, don't have that same comfort level, and I will meet with and my coaching career aspiring nonprofit professionals who cannot articulate though on elevator speech for themselves. They know they want to doom, or they want to perhaps do something different, but they have not been coached. You've on by you or someone like you who helps them articulate. Here's who I am have been successful at. But here's where I'm going and can kind offer a more compelling vision for their future, which in turn makes someone want to help him. But if they don't have any kind of clarity around that vision, and it's hard for you to know how you can assist them on their professional journey,

spk_1:   32:02
exactly. And nothing makes me happier when I can see one of my clients have that breakthrough that off our meow moment of Oh, I get it. And this does feel good and this is my story. That's what the personal brand is all about.

spk_0:   32:20
Well, well put. And I think you also are a good advocate for coaching and generally have on what? When someone says to you, you know, how can you help me as a coach? Or how is coaching helpful? Do you think to a professional?

spk_1:   32:37
I think it comes down to objectivity. You know, you need somebody. We all do. Um, who's not so close to us. They can evaluate and truly listen to what the other person is saying and then offer objective advice, um, to set up scenarios, you know? Are you at there? Are you telling me this? Is that what you met? I will. No, not exactly. What I really meant was just say this. Okay, well, let's learn how to frame that. Um, that that's the essence of it. We we all need somebody on the outside that can look at us because we do not look at ourselves objectively and sometimes were so much better than what we think. Ah, we are. And then other times, you know, you need to be tweaks here and there, but use a trusted advisor to help you along with that journey that's gonna make you a better leader in the long run,

spk_0:   33:52
That's well put. And I I think while we all need friends and family for encouragement, sometimes friends and family aren't objective either. And I guess that reinforces your point that a coach is one who can yes, encourage, but also provide you with the actual feedback objective feedback that's gonna help you get better. Yes, but coaching certainly strikes me. Is a a tool that we all should consider in our professional development journey is are there other tools or professional development tactics or ideas that you would add to the tool kit?

spk_1:   34:36
And I will speak for myself and my number one tool is to never stop learning. I personally loved to learn about new things any and all things. Um, and sometimes I spent a little too much time on my Google search because I'm just I'm interested in all sorts of different aspect, and so I would encourage everybody. Don't ever think that you've reached the pinnacle of your knowledge because there's always something else toe learn. Um, I'll give you a personal anecdote. When I started my consulting business back in 2008 I recall a colleague s asking me, Well, you know, what do you want? Oh, achieve you on. And I said, Well, first of all, I want to understand how Facebook works. Now, I don't think I'm any ideas, you know, in 2019. But the point is that what is relevant, you know, a year five years ago, 10 years ago is not necessarily relevant today. So if you think that you should afraid to ask for information. Don't be afraid to approach somebody that maybe you're a little intimidated by and ask them questions because they'll be flattered and you'll come away with more knowledge. And you never know where that conversation may lead you to that new branch in the road that relates to your career. Your mission. Um, it just it just always looked to develop yourself.

spk_0:   36:23
It's great council you've on and in essence, stretch yourself. And I like the point you make of talking to someone that perhaps is a little intimidating sometimes. But I think when we reach out to aspirational colleagues or peers in our industry, in our field, um, good things happen. Um, but you're right in that many people won't take that step. For whatever reason, they hesitate. And I think it provides a networking advantage and, as you put it, a not college advantage because that person has experienced knowledge. Resource is that can absolutely help you as well.

spk_1:   37:03
In one final comment on that, I would encourage those of us who have been around a little longer. I'll say, don't shy away from asking someone younger for their opinion, because while they may not be a seasoned as we are, they may have a perspective you've never thought of. Um, and I just I really think it all keeps us young and vibrant. Yes, we don't get caught up in. I can only talk to somebody who's in my peer group

spk_0:   37:41
Great device and great point. Everyone has a perspective, whether they are a rookie in their field or a veteran. Um, obviously, folks come from different communities, different organizations, so I I could not agree more. I love the diversity of individuals and organizations that can combine to give us a wealth of knowledge. And as you said at the beginning of that kind of point, um, you have to embrace knowledge, and that's just a healthy mind set. No matter what

spk_1:   38:14
agreed,

spk_0:   38:16
any final advice you've on it, you've given numerous ways, I think, for us to think about branding both in preparing our information, our material thinking about the audiences in which we will interact and the ways literally we will communicate with small groups to large groups or anything in between. But any other advice you would give someone who's now thinking about their personal brand?

spk_1:   38:46
Um, e, I would say my parting thought. If nothing else, if it's still tears terrifies you to go down. That road of self exploration is trying to think of yourself as a client because if you can think of your own self that way, Um, it's not as intimidating because you want to help your clients, right? So if you think of yourself as a client, then you should help that clock by it. Ah, and maybe that will be just the nudge to get you started on your own personal branding journey.

spk_0:   39:24
It's great perspective, and you're right. I think that take some of the pressure off if we can switch our perspective that way. Um, even this has been fantastic. And I know this will encourage our listeners to gonna assess their current brand and how it could ah, continue to evolve as it should. Um, you also know that I am a big fan of reading and in this case, books, um, any that you have read lately or on your list, ones that you recommend

spk_1:   40:00
Well, this is an oldie but a goodie, but I still I really still believe in how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie Good. Okay. I mean, you go back and you read his book. It's the foundation of how to communicate with people. And if we can't communicate with one another, Yeah, what's the reason for living? Um, so I'm going to stay with that classic. But I would also say, You know, in today's world, there are so many blog's Your excellent bog included that you can tam all sorts of information. I was on Google today again, um, and typed in the phrase best blog's for personal branding. And there are several. So I would, you know, encourage you if you're interested. Um, put in the search terms and see what you get and poke around a little bit. I'm sure something will speak to you.

spk_0:   41:14
That's fantastic. And you're right. What a resource we have with technology and, ah, find then used that have the kind of information you're seeking. And I though, like the foundation you've given us Dale Carnegie Definitely in my library. As I look at my bookshelf right this second. Good one for us to all. Remember, you've on How can we learn more about the good work you're doing? I certainly will put in the show notes. Your website is anything else you would like to direct people toward?

spk_1:   41:46
Well, I do run a blawg and you can find it either on Facebook or on Lengthen under Y Geul Enterprises. I always appreciate all my followers, and I appreciate comments on my blog's again. That's how I learned. So, you know, check it out if you're interested and let me know what you think.

spk_0:   42:11
Yvonne, it's fantastic. I really appreciate you joining me today on the path.

spk_1:   42:16
Well, I've enjoyed talking to you, Parr a patent. And so it's always fun for us to have a good conversation together.

spk_0:   42:22
All right, thanks again. Well, I hope you enjoyed this conversation with you, Von. She and I tackled all of the things that will give you specific ways to improve your personal brand. Things that you can do to enhance your LinkedIn profile in any way that your brand is communicated obviously represents your organization. And they are part and parcel of the same image that you want to convey. Not just now, but so that you can achieve senior leadership down the road, as always. Please check out the show notes and the associative article on our website patent McDowell dot com, and enjoy every element of this conversation and is well, as the resource is that you have on brought up thanks, as always, for listening in. I appreciate your time. And I hope you will share this episode with others in the nonprofit community that, you know that are trying to enhance their personal brand and move further along the path to nonprofit leadership. Thanks for all you're doing for the sector and for whatever cause you're passionate about, and I look forward to seeing you next time on the path.