18: How Do You Blend For-Profit and Nonprofit Leadership Lessons? (Will Jones)

spk_0:   0:03
Welcome to your path to nonprofit leadership, the weekly podcast featuring the very best in productivity and professional development in the nonprofit sector. I'm your host. Patent mcdow on my goal once in, is to use each episode to give you ideas and actual advice that you can use on your journey along the nonprofit path. I think you're in for a treat in terms of a great conversation I had with Will Jones. But before we get to that, let me remind you a couple of items Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite hosting platform. If you have not already and always appreciate your reviews and sharing of this episode with others who might be on a similar nonprofit journey, don't forget to check out Patton. McDowell dot com is Our newly revised website has even Mawr Resource is than the typical show notes associated with each episode. So check it out and hopefully you can take advantage of some of the resource is that will, in our other podcasts guests have delivered in each episode. Now, Will is a real student of leadership and organizational development, and I was excited to talk to him about his non profit and for profit experience that has led to his leadership of a fantastic organization called Thompson, which provides critical clinical and prevention services for at risk Children and families across the Carolinas. Now will and I dive into all sorts of leadership tactics and productivity rituals that he employs and the ways he tries to empower his team, as well as identify and retain top talent to join him at Thompson, in addition to some great book and other resource recommendations, Will also has some real thought provoking ideas about how we can better collaborate in the nonprofit sector as leaders and as aspiring leaders. A swell as B'more effective and dare I say it profitable in achieving our nonprofit mission? Yes, I did say profitable, and I think it's okay and Will will help elaborate on that concept. Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Will Jones. Well, thank you for joining me on the path. Thanks for having I'm excited Tea chat with you today. Well, you had a great career journey, and certainly the kind of path that we like to feature on this podcast is you've had experiences with different organizations different types of roles, both in for profit and nonprofit. So why don't we start with that? Tell me about kind of the highlights of your journey. And, ah, how did you first get into this nonprofit world?

spk_1:   3:12
Yeah, um, seems like such a long time ago

spk_0:   3:15
now, but not

spk_1:   3:16
too long. About 25 years ago. Um, you know, it was somewhere down the line. Um, I really realized that I wanted to be in the an industry that helped people, and in doing so, my first job in my industry, which generally a social services, human services. I was with a county government in Florida, Orange County and Orlando and, um worked there for about 8.5 years and different different facets and jobs and learned a lot in a very short period of time. And but there was a point time about 8.5 years in I really started to question, quite frankly, had the amount of red tape that occur sometimes in government, right? I kind of action, action oriented person on actual action oriented leader, and I just beginning get frustrated and had a great opportunity, actually came out of left field to be the chief operating officer of the local non for profit in the beach community where I grew up. It was about 45 minutes east of only and 1/2 ago, um took the interview and still was unsure of, you know, diving into private a non for profit work versus working in public sector.

spk_0:   4:36
Right?

spk_1:   4:36
You know that point time? 8.5 years, then you start weighing a lot of different things. Like, you know, I'm already bested in 12 years. I could draw down four time 20 years into the government. Um, and there's this complete, unknown, uncharted waters, if you will, for May if somebody that went straight from college into public sector work and you know that the fear of change was a big part of that dynamic. But at the end of it all, I did make that decision, Teoh, jump out of government work and into private non profit work, you know, coming for human services. If you start in government, you have an opportunity to get you into by private, um, not for profit and also private for profit working human services. Most of the work outside of government is actually not for profit. So I I just I took a fly ordering in a little bit of a risk. And, um, I really felt like I was running. And I've told this story before. I was running away from government red tape and bureaucracy.

spk_0:   5:38
And then I

spk_1:   5:39
realized really fast that I did not run far, because 80 to 90% of our funding in the human services, not for profit space, comfortable government, a lot of the red tape get attached to the funding

spk_0:   5:50
you could you could not escape it, could you? In some ways,

spk_1:   5:55
yeah, I say

spk_0:   5:56
I

spk_1:   5:56
ran fast, but I did not run far

spk_0:   5:59
exactly. But but a thread to help people clearly has been a theme throughout your career. I'm sure you would agree.

spk_1:   6:08
Absolutely. You know, in or working not for profit sector is there's a lot of different things and not for profits. And not every not for profit is alike. My my industry within the not for profit sectors, human services and you know we're here to help. And in doing so, what we see is we deal with individuals in communities that have been highly traumatized over the course of their life. In most cases, we also see that in a in a workforce, So most of the people in this industry have dealt with their own form of trauma or or passed in. Many of us in the industry have actually built was agency around it and understand how the appropriate ankle supports the appropriate services. The appropriate individuals that enter into your life can really strengthen you and helping you overcome that. So that's why we see specifically at Thompson where I am now. What about 85% of our staff actually have form or adverse childhood experiences that

spk_0:   7:08
allow

spk_1:   7:09
the aces score it said were kind of were drawn into the work based on our past and what we've able to overcome.

spk_0:   7:17
But that's a great point, and I guess people join the nonprofit path for many different reasons. But you make a good point that folks in your sector often are touched by the causes you're trying to help.

spk_1:   7:32
Absolutely, absolutely. We see that over and ever again, even with um, even with board members and people, even donors, bone hires the same

spk_0:   7:41
right what you have illustrated. I think the sector very well. But why don't you give me the elevator speech? What is Thompson? Will the organization you lead now?

spk_1:   7:52
Great. Well, Thompson is person foremost where the oldest, um, non for profit youth service organization and the greater Charlotte area. I'm just over a little a little over 133 years of age. But that being said, we way kind of say, now that we're 133 year old infant

spk_0:   8:12
sound right is what

spk_1:   8:14
created the organization and the needs that were around 133 years ago. They're similar, but there's so much different. So we've really had to learn to walk all over again, if you will, um, by doing new and different things to really stand in the gap to meet the needs of what's happening in our community in 19 4000 and 20 now, um, and we do that primarily through three million service lines, early childhood services, stability and support, work and mental health services. We try to simplify what we do in this three legged with a three legged stool underneath. A bit of that is 15 to 17 different services.

spk_0:   8:58
Wow,

spk_1:   8:59
but at the end of it all, but we're really working hard on with community partners with with businesses is to really impact, um, and stop intergenerational poverty in Charlotte.

spk_0:   9:13
That's a great way

spk_1:   9:15
that we have a lot of weight in a lot of work in

spk_0:   9:16
it. And indeed, and you're not alone in the sector trying to address some of those tough issues. But it's impressive what you and Thompson are doing and certainly as a model for organizations like yours across the state, across the nation. Something else I'm sure you can appreciate is your colleagues. You do a lot with a little, um, there's always more work to be done. And I've gotten to know you a bit, will that you're not only looking at the near term, but you're looking at long term change. How do you stay? Organized? Back to a kind of a feature of this podcast is the productivity side. You produce a lot of great effort in content. How do you do it?

spk_1:   9:59
Yeah, um, great question. First and foremost, I'm always learning I'm in around, um organization productivity making most of my time. Um, but above all things patent, honestly, as I sit back and think about this question is something that I've been saying kind of in the pulpit of my work with my team for the last two years. In our space, Um, or most precious, I'm invaluable asset above, above and beyond the people that work when the organization is our time,

spk_0:   10:32
right?

spk_1:   10:32
So that the leader of the organization, I'm very protective of my time, Um and so I really one of the biggest tools I have is a calendar and making sure that I'm protective of my time. And I understand the importance of my time and my role in the organization. And I actually block out time throughout my day, week, month and cooler to strategize, to think, um, maybe even innovative and different ways, but not necessarily to do. Um, and that really has enabled me to be more productive in my role. Um, and above all other things, you know, and I even share that with our organizations. When new employees come into the organization, we do a new employee orientation. And if I'm if I'm present that day, most days, you know I speak in the 1st 15 to 30 minutes and one of the biggest things. I try to get a new Thompson team member to understand this, you may not see me in the next 6 to 9 months. I haven't opened door. I'd love to get on the camera for coffee, a one on one, and I'm always available to anybody and everybody that works in our organization. But that being said, I really set the clear expectation that I'm working on the organization in the organization

spk_0:   11:47
that but

spk_1:   11:47
I really kind of set a tone around my time in my role and function. And I even give examples of what happens if I work in the organization versus on the organization. So, you know, obviously from there is my calendar. Um, you know, review, Mike my calendar every single evening review in the morning again prioritised accordingly. One of the biggest tools I picked about well over a year and 1/2 ago. I came from Michael. Hiatt was identifying my big three Period Nations goals for the day.

spk_0:   12:20
A big fan of his. Yeah, like, I'm really Yeah,

spk_1:   12:25
yeah. You know, I just think that kind of really helps me understand. What are the three major things that I want to either accomplish our influence to stay and then and then work around those things. So those air the big rocks, if you will versus the pebbles that happen in our dad. Really? Andy Stanley, who, actually the past about a real big on leadership, has a great analogy about rocks versus pebbles.

spk_0:   12:51
Yes,

spk_1:   12:52
you know, And if you put your big rock semen after you put in all your pebbles and you can't fit everything into your dad,

spk_0:   13:00
right,

spk_1:   13:01
you put the big three rocks and all the pebbles will actually work in the crevices entering around them so that Big Three is another kind of tool in tactic. Not only do I use I also record requiring requested of my direct reports in the organization to,

spk_0:   13:16
but I love that, and it just ah, it's such an effective illustration of prioritization. And it's easy, I think, in any sector but nonprofit in particular to just being a reactionary mode. And your calendar will kill you then, right? If you're not proactive as you have been and I guess something I want to ask you will is your philosophy of meetings, Do we? Do we drown out much of our calendar in the nonprofit sector with just too many meetings. Has that been kind of your reaction to that?

spk_1:   13:47
Ah, great question. I do think we're extremely meeting heavy. Um, you know, and I don't want to speak to the sector, but in my world, in history, in the sector, extremely meeting heavy, um, or what? I like to say that my team is no meaningless meetings.

spk_0:   14:04
Yeah. Good.

spk_1:   14:05
Let's not meet to meet. What's the intent of that interaction? That meeting? Um, can we do that in a more efficient, effective way? Can we use technology in an email much like teams texting to answer questions? We try not to. You use meetings as a way to inform, but really more around tackling and and really doing some debating in and around issues and major decisions were trying to make, um so information. Generally, an organization will go out the make some teams, email, maybe even text telephone, wanna ones. But we will not or I will not in particular no struggle with this. Set up a meeting just to inform Were there to actually work. We want we want to leave with Take aways. We want to have an agenda of what we're trying to accomplish before we get into that

spk_0:   15:00
great point. And what is your highest value role during the day, right? It's not just toe consume content. It's toe. So you'll have meetings for strategic conversations and deliberation, but not to sit. Simply listen. Toe content delivery.

spk_1:   15:18
Yeah, we really adopted in our executive leadership team and Thompson Lindsay Onis five dysfunctions of a team methodology.

spk_0:   15:25
Yep.

spk_1:   15:26
And so we tried to identify what is or what is the biggest pain point in the organization. Um, that we're facing and we'll meet and talk and strategizing dear tactical work in and around that one biggest pain point. So the last quarter of this past year that just closed out was around hiring and recruiting and retaining Top Vo talent

spk_0:   15:50
Way

spk_1:   15:50
really beat that up for three months, you know, weekly meetings. We identified what pathways what kind of tactics where we going to use when we come back and begin to evaluate? How are some of the things that we implemented working? So we use that really more winging on problem solving, right? We do a little bit of updating in that meeting, but it's it's one minute, alas, around the table. It's quick, quick hits things that you need to team know things that you may need some support around. But we really tried to tackle issues and, quite frankly, hopefully gets to some debate. So our team, our team meetings, even some of our team communication, he is also to hold each other accountable. And I, also by the team that will be accountable is the CEO of the organization as well.

spk_0:   16:38
Love

spk_1:   16:39
pushback as well. Pushback is welcome and intentions welcome as long as it's what we call dynamic, not toxic.

spk_0:   16:48
Interesting. So it is going to be proactive and positive. But you don't mind healthy debate and to strengthen. I guess the topic you're discussing,

spk_1:   17:00
I have absolutely, that's where really the That's where the what we call deep tissue work happens,

spk_0:   17:05
right?

spk_1:   17:05
That's where the real fruit comes.

spk_0:   17:07
Well, I take it then you'll pick another kind of headline topic for the next quarter. So that kind of Lynsey only strategy allows you to kind of pick a a quarterly headline.

spk_1:   17:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we do that. I'm very summer, too kind of other problem identification tools where we'll actually go around and every member will jot down two or three things. You know, when we said previously, you had on not from your current role, but what from your CEO hat. If you're did one personal leading the organization, what is the biggest thing impacting the organization?

spk_0:   17:39
That an

spk_1:   17:40
individual? Not the team, but the

spk_0:   17:41
United

spk_1:   17:41
Fire Organization. Um and it is interesting this last quarter when we talked about your top talent and creating a retaining and that that level of work every single personal night is that your real leadership team had that down. This number one

spk_0:   17:58
Wow Well, good alignment. But love the fact that you're encouraging all of them toe put on a strategic at right and not get buried in the tactics of their I guess, individual area.

spk_1:   18:11
Well, and it happens, you know, as you know, and even in your interaction of history, you know, that can happen really fast in the not for profit sector because you made a comment earlier. A lot of we may have a resource, but we don't necessarily have an over abundance of resource, and many of us will wear different hats throughout the day.

spk_0:   18:32
Exactly. Right. But you need to make sure you don't get buried in your many hats, right? And it sounds like the exercises you're providing allow for prioritization at a strategic level.

spk_1:   18:46
Well, not just that. We've had to really train on that because a lot of people will go to the comfort zone. Right. So your first time supervisor was an individual contributor. Say you're a counselor. Now you're supervising counselors, Will. Your comfort zone really is doing the council doing the work, not overseeing the people to do the work.

spk_0:   19:03
Right. So

spk_1:   19:04
we have to be very intentional about our terminology are training or structure. So leaders really understand that the leading not doing the coach is approaching that point.

spk_0:   19:16
Yes, yes. Ah. Think that is fantastic and something a lot of nonprofit leaders can learn from. And those aspiring which, of course, I think a lot of our listeners, as you know, will or on the path aspiring toe senior leadership, or perhaps considering joining the nonprofit sector. And it's a perfect Segway. Maybe from your quarterly headline. Ah, hiring talent. What are you looking for? What advice would you offer? And perhaps through that lens of hiring talent. What are that? Some may be the characteristics you look for in hiring talent to your organization.

spk_1:   19:53
Yeah, Um, again, I kind of referenced one Cioni earlier, but he hasn't had a model of looking for humble, humble, humble, hungry and smart individuals and not smart from an intelligence but people smarts. Perspective. So we've adopted that into our interviewing model. Um, and then we actually added 1/4. Sorry, Lindsay. Ani. We added 1/4

spk_0:   20:19
year with That's all right

spk_1:   20:20
on. That's in. That's in around coach ability. Um, So what we found is, if you're not coachable, you're not gonna work. Well in our current culture.

spk_0:   20:31
How do you say that ability? Do you want here evidence from me that I have used coaching in the past? Or what would you say

spk_1:   20:41
we will? You know, a classic question that we can use me. You're really asking tough questions bad. And I wouldn't

spk_0:   20:48
ready one of

spk_1:   20:50
the questions we use around coach ability in the neighbor Open ended where a lot of people do compensate based questions and actually lead the person to the answer, right. I might say to you, patent tell me about a time where you work for a supervisor. You didn't get along.

spk_0:   21:07
Got to.

spk_1:   21:08
I won't ask what you did about it. I'll just leave it hanging there and what will end up happening? A candidate may go down one of two pathways where they actually identify that time. That experience and what they did to adapt, become coachable, maybe aligned themselves with their leader, and then others will get down to what we call deep, dark pathway of basically beating up their previous leadership.

spk_0:   21:35
Well, and

spk_1:   21:35
if you do that, you'll be doing the same thing to me when I'm not looking

spk_0:   21:38
that score. Maybe when I'm looking

spk_1:   21:40
at your face. Either way, I don't want you in the culture of Thompson. So that's kind of one of the things that we look look at. And then we really also talked about something that we call the three C's, which is something I think me or somebody else on the team drew up in a napkin one day. But it makes sense for us where we're looking at competency, you know, you know, this hungry humbles on smart falls under that are in our mind. Um capacity. Meaning Can you grow in the organization groves? Sometimes we have outgrown individuals, pass capacity. And we've seen that even that Thompson a week as we've grown at an enormous rate than a real fast pace that we really out about grown people in leadership and even outgrown people in executive leadership over time. So do they have the capacity to grow with us? And then where they on the call for Fitz, which is an ongoing

spk_0:   22:36
anus?

spk_1:   22:37
Big part of my work and the work of the people work alongside me.

spk_0:   22:43
I think that's fantastic. And I will underscore your point. You're not just hiring for the immediate job description that's in play, but you're hiring for potential. It sounds like capacity. And I suppose if I if I demonstrate to you that I am a lifelong learner, that I'm responsive to coaching even if I don't have evidence of you know that that future position you're looking for my potential to achieve that future position. Is that fair?

spk_1:   23:13
Um, yeah, um potentials A word. Your high potentials, you know, is a phrase that we've used. But I also get worried about using the word potential so much and it leaves in my history. Um, I played basketball in college and right

spk_0:   23:28
after college I

spk_1:   23:29
started this recruitment business. Believe it or not, pet.

spk_0:   23:31
And I know that I

spk_1:   23:32
told you the story important. That was I was evaluating high school talent for colleges, and I'll never forget a converse. And this is 20 years ago Now. It's interesting what you remember, but I'll never get forget something that big 69 post player. Young, little, little bit weak. But he had some skills and I'm still talking of Division one basketball catch. I'm like, Come take a look at this kid. You got so much potential and he looked at me and he goes, and all seriously, because of potential, could get me fired.

spk_0:   24:01
Well, hello

spk_1:   24:02
and I e. Said, Tell me more about that. I have told the story probably 102 100 times. Now

spk_0:   24:07
that's great,

spk_1:   24:08
he said, under a potential by itself does absolutely nothing for you because of its unrealized. Um, that person, they didn't live up to that potential that you assumed or presume that they had. They will get you fired as the leader of the coach, and they will also get themselves fun in the process.

spk_0:   24:26
But I

spk_1:   24:27
know that being said, it's something that we just got to be cognizant of, that absolutely. We're looking for people that have potential that can grow into something bigger and better with the right level supports and, quite frankly, people that are or self motivated to grow.

spk_0:   24:41
And

spk_1:   24:41
I always looking to be fed on their own. They're actually speaking to your point. Lifelong learning. You know, we're big dependence a time son of leaders alone or you could say, Leader, your readers. But now nobody wants to really want to hear everything. Hence the podcasting, right?

spk_0:   24:57
But that being grown is

spk_1:   24:58
their learning and growing and the Emmy, and they're seeking information on how to get better that becomes so big in anything that they do have an organization.

spk_0:   25:10
Well, you, you've answered. My next question was, and obviously you never know exactly. And you're coaching advice there about potential being somewhat uncertain. But those, I guess, would be the advice elements you'd offer someone that demonstrates ah, interest in life. Long learning, I guess. What? What are you looking for? For someone who is trying to advance, You know, they established themselves. Many of our listeners, you know, in that kind of middle management space, I guess. Will. So is there anything you would point to that separates the middle management from senior leadership?

spk_1:   25:49
Yeah. You know, you know, I'm gonna author out of quote. I actually sent out to my team. The other deaths, All this and it made so much. And this is one thing. Anybody, leadership is a journey and not a destination. Which means you're either improving your leadership skills or they're getting worse.

spk_0:   26:03
Center. So

spk_1:   26:04
one thing to your point. Be always be learning in some way shape of form. Sharpen your soul, as Covey said are looking to sharpen your soul. Use everything in l in in your own space and around you to do that. So you know, what are you doing to self developing, Justus? Important to me as and what are we doing to develop you? And I think it has to be 1/2 and half mix. Um, on the other side, there's just one little key things that that I believe in that others may not, but, you know, negotiate your salary for the next five years, and except that before you start.

spk_0:   26:43
What do you mean?

spk_1:   26:44
It is a sign. Well, don't negotiate your salary after you've accepted the position.

spk_0:   26:50
God, we've

spk_1:   26:50
seen young leaders come into the role 30 days that renegotiating their salary. And now I'm thinking that's a little bit of a credibility issue,

spk_0:   26:58
right?

spk_1:   26:58
Or an integrity issue. Because you negotiated a salary, you've accepted a position on what you've negotiated, and then you come in and maybe you do a little bit of good work. But you really don't have a real body of work,

spk_0:   27:09
right?

spk_1:   27:10
And then you re negotiating. So that's generally a red flood when those things were happening for us organizationally. So we just tell people up front, you know, even were making job offers. Is this what you're willing to be able to do for the next ratified,

spk_0:   27:27
right?

spk_1:   27:27
It's a negotiate. Accordingly, I'm given the space that we're in. Um, you know, there is some ability to do different things, but generally speaking, your income is not going to grow unless you change positions or to take more responsibilities. In general, there are the mechanism to do that. So we look for that. We look for people that are always willing to stand in the gap

spk_0:   27:51
running.

spk_1:   27:51
If we have a special project that there's a person lying to volunteer for that, um, you know, one of the another red flag that we have is when we all for somebody an opportunity to take on a different project, a role that will help the organization, it could be a development opportunity for them is that they go right into negotiations rather than absolutely I would love to do that that I learned so much from that opportunity that's so rich they'll go right into salary negotiations. And what I've really done is try to test him a little bit.

spk_0:   28:22
So in other words, if I say well, I'll do it. But I want to be paid more. I'm leading with the wrong intent then, right?

spk_1:   28:29
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You've lost me. You lost me. Um, you know, we we tend to believe we take care of our people. We'll take here, you on the front, and we'll take your view on the back. And that you will be take Kira. But some of this is just about doing more. I've done this for 25 years now. I was actually counting this today. At the time we have been doing this 25 years and and I don't think I I don't think there's a time we had actually win to somebody and ask for a salary increase. What I've tried to do is just be of service. If I can help, I'll help. If I can do more, I'm going to do more. And that's really what I'd love for people in the industry and people in organizations specifically to do just do more doom or and doom or again,

spk_0:   29:13
performance leads toe. Ultimately, compensation doesn't in organizations like yours sounds like and, um, heavily So in your journey. I guess at some point you reach that juncture when you need to go to a different organization to get the experience to move up the ladder. Is that something you've kind of acknowledge? Or have there been lessons learned where you just realize, Hey, I had a good experience. But if I'm going to get leadership experience, perhaps I need to go somewhere else.

spk_1:   29:46
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I know it's question, but it's also great advice, Um, in that sometimes is also includes leaving your current community and being open to understand there's a big world out there. There's a lot of new and exciting things happening. And if you are mobile and you can relocate Teoh, give yourself into new opportunities that will want help. You grow personally, professionally, and then to help you grow in your career. You'll be better served to do that. I think somewhere down the line, in the mouth of profit space, people get really comfortable really quick, right on E. I tend to believe, and I can say that it could have been in this world for a long time. I can't believe it's because where there is little accountability, there's a lot of comfort,

spk_0:   30:36
and there's a lot of

spk_1:   30:36
comfort. You actually know what's gonna happen every day, every week, every month of the year becomes predicted. Um, and I could say in our organization, and I've also been blessed to work the organizations in this way is that no, today is predictable. No weeks, Predictable month is predictable and accountability, um, will shine a light on somebody that really doesn't want to do really good quality work. Damn back community,

spk_0:   31:04
that's that's Ah, very good point and it sounds like and you have done it. It's not easy to move yourself and your family, but I'm sure you've benefited from the different markets in which you've worked right and the different organizations. And you likely could have stayed, you know, right there in Florida from the get go if you so desired.

spk_1:   31:25
Oh, absolutely. But you know, to your 00.1 is, I don't think I would have progressed. Maybe I would have been a CEO of a non for profit. I wouldn't have progressed in my career pathway the way I have. Um, I wouldn't have a national network in my industry, um, that I have. I wouldn't have had the opportunity Teoh see and learn about new things. New approaches on what works, what doesn't meet new people, build relationships the way I have. But I absolutely, I feel like, you know, I think a lot of times is leaders in the middle of profit sector may be, quite frankly, any sector. This fear of changes is what's holding. A lot of people back up, you know, and I have it, too, and I've had it doing my career when I would you ask what brought me to not for profit work. Well, that was a fearful decision to make. You know, I was 8.5 years from the government. I could have literally be fully retired, you know, by my 40th birthday, um, you know, and then went out and worked one of the 20 some odd years in the private sector. Um, but every move has been, you know, angst, anxiety driven. But one of these I really tried to do one is in years. Another piece of advice. Yes, because we see this all the time, and I just don't get it. Don't ever quit a job without another one. And quite frankly, I don't believe that you should ever take a step back just to before. And a lot of people say it's okay to take a step back to move forward. I don't believe that. I think you need to look at opportunities that are gonna move you for some of it may be a lateral. And then Ford.

spk_0:   33:04
Yeah,

spk_1:   33:05
but I You know, I was talking to one of our leaders the other day. I was like, you know, I took a pay cut to be here like, Oh, why, That's awkward. You tell me more about what that means.

spk_0:   33:13
Prison.

spk_1:   33:14
They use that. The leverage leverage me to react in a way that I'm not going to react.

spk_0:   33:18
Right, Right. So it lateral at at worst is what you're saying. If not stretching yourself to move ahead.

spk_1:   33:27
This is This is what I tell you, that this will be on my advice to my five kids. Okay?

spk_0:   33:32
Yeah. Yeah, that. Well, let me ask you about Well, you've again among your many good experiences. Of course, have been in the for profit sector. I guess that would be the case. And I'm seeing as I'm sure you are mawr folks that I would describe his lateral entry candidate to nonprofit. So what would you say to someone who is in the for profit sector? That's thinking about nonprofit. I mean, can that work?

spk_1:   34:02
Oh, absolutely. You know, a lot of times these are the people that will help change the sector every time,

spk_0:   34:10
right?

spk_1:   34:10
Come from the for profit sector, and then you enter our sector. That's fresh perspective. New ideas. Um, you have you may Hopefully you really have a good sense of business. modelling understand that that that actually making a little profit in a not for profit sector is not a negative, Those air good things

spk_0:   34:33
back like that. We

spk_1:   34:34
build capacity that we recruit people in, um, from and from the for profit sector or bigger non for profit organizations that runs similar to a for profit. Now they approach work. But I actually do. I think generally it's it's a question of the heart of patent. To be honest with you, right when I way have some of our team and have worked with some in the past generally is, is what to drawing you to it. And I think a lot of if what's drawn to it is I want to be comfortable. It's easier, you know, Whatever you think of you assume is the case. I'm Please do not come doing into my world. Um, if you want to impact community, if you want to impact something in the community, something in anything that's happening in non for profits are standing the gap, doing that work. And you could bring your tools, your skill set your history, you experience to that, I we're gonna welcome you with open arms, but it's got to be for the right reasoning. I think people that want to come and because, you know, they I'm abroad, you know, is my second time around. I've already retired wants and, you know, I prefer you not apply in my organization. I'm just gonna be frank about that.

spk_0:   35:50
Yeah, good. But

spk_1:   35:51
if you have an intent to help and feel like a novel profit, um, that's doing work where you have passion. Passion is something we almost can't coach for, right we can't frame. And that's something we can hire for. We love that we love the passionate person that comes with a business mind. I think that will only help us. I'm improved in the work we do as an organization in our community. And then I also would also just and we've done this Don't assume because it's not the prophet that we don't value quality, and that quality doesn't exist here. I think a lot of people assume you know, quite friend. I remember one point Thompson says, if you ever decide to leave the not for profit community, what do you dio? What do you mean for for profits And they stop it Now, the process experience I'm like, that's why would that be?

spk_0:   36:43
And they don't appreciate. We do that.

spk_1:   36:46
Well, this year I'm leading. You know what will be hoping? 20 to $25 million annual revenue generating business,

spk_0:   36:54
Right?

spk_1:   36:54
That's doing really great mission work. But that being said, I'd like to believe that some of that's transferable, you know?

spk_0:   37:01
Absolutely. Is gonna

spk_1:   37:03
interesting. It's interesting how people were saying they just have these assumptions of our sector. Um, but also on the opposite. You know what that is like? You know, I know that you can't pay me that. This I'm like, why would you assume that I can't?

spk_0:   37:17
Right?

spk_1:   37:17
Why would you assume that I'm going to you undervalue you are because we're enough a problem. And and I think that happens in times, maybe we're not gonna be competitive with him with a bank major worldwide bank. But that doesn't mean we're not gonna be somewhat competitive to the market.

spk_0:   37:37
Not every more

spk_1:   37:38
interesting. I am.

spk_0:   37:40
Mr.

spk_1:   37:40
Gill will. Yeah, go ahead. I could pet. I'm sorry.

spk_0:   37:43
No, no, I'm just I'm excited by the line of conversation because I could not agree more that If if you're a lateral entry and you think you can quote, retire into nonprofit, you are mistaken. This is hard work. It's important work. You are a passion that you noted will. And I think you're such a good champion. I follow your social media about non profits are businesses, and if you're thinking it purely as a kind of charitable, feel good. Um, that's not just the case. Maybe you could elaborate further on some of your recent comments about It's okay for there to be some profit.

spk_1:   38:24
Yeah, you know, I've been I was a blessing bus and or curse, but But I've had an opportunity to work in several what would be considered to be 1% non for profits, you know, over $100 million in annual revenue, doing a lot of good, good quality work. And all of them have have had the same principle. No margin, no mission am. I mean, you have to create a little bit of buffer, a little bit of money to put somewhere for you to continue, not only to sustain but grow your mission. I get concerned that non for profits are fighting for sustainability. Patton,

spk_0:   39:07
right?

spk_1:   39:07
And I believe not for profit should be fighting for growth, scale, increase impact. Um, and not sustainability. If I'm a $1 million off a profit, I should not be content. But I'm a $1,000,000 in 10 years that sustainability

spk_0:   39:22
Well, for,

spk_1:   39:23
um and I think in order, in order for you to do that, you have to understand that you have to invest into that. And that's where I always believe you knew the know Morgan. Their mission is a great quote that we use and effort for a long time now, but that you know what I said? Yes. For tax purposes, we are not for profit. The way we run it is a mission based for profit organization. Now, that's not saying we're profitable. Were not profitable yet. I believe we can be overturned, but we're not there yet. That also means that we're not OK with music.

spk_0:   40:01
No, it's

spk_1:   40:02
not. It's not completely, um, satisfactory to lose money.

spk_0:   40:09
Um, writing that down, it will be featured among the many great nuggets of advice in the show. Notes associate With this episode, no margin, no mission. And and you're right to many of our non profit friends are in survival mode, I think will. And while I'm grateful for their effort, the people they serve need them to be more than just surviving right. If there were going to really make a difference in our communities,

spk_1:   40:36
yeah, I gray it. It's community we live in. Both just do a substantial amount of work and not all over work. I know you do work in other areas. We do work in some other areas. But Charlotte, North Carolina, is a classic example of what a great, wonderful community for many of us, but also not not so much a great one of community for so many of us, and what I mean by that is, but there's still a lot of need, and it's on that that it unfortunately or fortunately, the non profit sector has to stand in the gap and work closely with corporate America, which we dio and we're blessed. And Charlotte have that, um, as well as the government on what lesson have really great government partners, um, in this community and others. But that being said, there's more to be done and you maybe not nothing in this but you know, we're about 180% growth rate. Three years.

spk_0:   41:33
Wow.

spk_1:   41:33
Everything we do headcounts revenue services, people number people were impacting And I said, There's not mango tech and we really have them in focusing on a growth strategy, most of it's completely and utterly an organic, opportunistic. We stand in the gap if we feel like we can. We partner in different ways. Um, I can only imagine if we really had intentionality around business development, cause we don't have a business development department at Thompson as it stands today, and I've imported organizations that do you actually have a focus building to building a team? We don't have that we're destroying the need,

spk_0:   42:13
but organically, you're still growing, even if you're not pushing it from a business development perspective. Clearly you're doing some great things and among other things, will lift up folks. You all should check out Thompson. Their website will be in the show notes, and it's a great organization, a model, frankly, will. And I know you're you're building on the work of, you know, decades before, but the community need is there and, ah, again, lots of great topics. I want to be sensitive to your time, but one topic I definitely want to ask you about in your senior leadership role in a lot of executive directors. Ask me and it's it's the interaction with your board and you have, ah, fantastic Board of Thompson. But I wonder if you might speak Teoh. Just, you know, the relationship with the board as a non profit CEO? Are there some some highlights or or advice or things you might offer? A fellow executive director?

spk_1:   43:14
Um, you know, Yeah, I am extremely blessed to have a very supportive, knowledgeable in advocating board A Thompson first in four minutes along that pathway for me is that I'm hoping some of them feel the same. It's not only this relationship between the CEO of the organization and the board member, but hopefully friendships and relationships over time that will last way beyond their their tenure, Um, on the board or even my tenure as the leader at Thompson.

spk_0:   43:47
Right?

spk_1:   43:47
Um, you know and and I see that occurring not necessary with every single board member. But there's a healthy respect on first from myself and my team to our board, and I also We also believe that we see that from our board back to us. So a name when I say that is, um I think we've grown from trust. Um, based on performance based on communication. Hes on interaction. And I think that's critical. You know, a lot of, um, I'll come get away from Thompson and just kind of some of things I've seen, you know? You know, And then here's another thing I just want to share with anybody who's kind of new to the role are thinking about going into this world or other leadership roles. Bad news doesn't get better with time. Um, I say that about twice a week.

spk_0:   44:35
Good advice. But

spk_1:   44:37
I will tell you, as somebody that reports to and works at the will of a board, um, bad news does not get better with time.

spk_0:   44:45
So

spk_1:   44:45
I'm informed them so they can assist you. Support you, give you advice, give you this moment if nothing else. So they're not blindsided. Many all of our board members or community advocates in the community. In other organizations, I'm very visible. People know who they are. They know people. Last thing I was would ever want is that a board member Get blindsided in a community conversation or no action. Um, so that would be a quick piece advice, But

spk_0:   45:15
it's good on the other side

spk_1:   45:16
of it. On the other side of this, a couple things that I think has helped me, Um, at least coming into the role almost three years now about 50 60 days stopped counting a while back, but I was really trained appearance. I lifted the hood on my heart in my thought process about my for profit leadership in the rule of the CEO in the operations leadership verse of the role of the board. So I want what I mean by that Tatin is that I was very up front with who I was as a leader and how I I thought we would be the best way for me to lead Thompson further with the board before they hired me. So I really wanted them to know who I waas

spk_0:   46:03
ice

spk_1:   46:04
before they made a decision that I was the right person and I also Escalon the questions which is really great to is it was kind of like a a due diligence process in a merger and acquisition.

spk_0:   46:15
It's a two way street. Four.

spk_1:   46:18
Absolutely. I was interviewing down as much as they were interviewing me, Um, and trying to understand their mindset because the last thing I wanted to do for the mission of the organisation, for myself, my family and for them would be to say, say something that didn't portray who I was and how my leadership was going to be impact in the organization in 60 days. Baby, this is a bus. So this is not what you said,

spk_0:   46:44
right? Very

spk_1:   46:45
up front and somewhat in a bold manner. Not abrasive, but bold. You know, like, this is what I'm thinking. Oh, this is kind of my expectation in the stroller. If you choose toe, offer it to me.

spk_0:   46:58
Put it on the table early, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I

spk_1:   47:02
wanted I wanted them to vet me. I don't prevent me young, but based on who I was and how I was going approach the world, yeah, I could have easily been vetted out,

spk_0:   47:12
right?

spk_1:   47:12
But I would have been more I would I would me personally, because of the family and other obligations in, quite frankly, that I was in a great opportunity with a for profit here and in the state that was work worldwide. But, you know, if I'm going to make that move, I want them to know who that leader getting for the short and long term. And I also wanted one of myself to know that they're comfortable with some my thoughts and philosophies about how toe in black community.

spk_0:   47:41
So

spk_1:   47:41
I was busting out ever be a kind of a negative device, and in doing so, you may get vetted out of opportunities, but be you your, um sure, who your share what you're intending to share, what your perspective on leadership is. And then from there, quite frankly, we just had to get some really quick wins. And hopefully the board have seen I try not to use is always of the board. I don't want to over promise and under deliver, right? I think I think for the most part we've done that. I'm sure there's been a time witty where we've we've under delivered under delivered a little bit on something. We don't make me a promise, but generally we're batting a good percentage, so you don't want to set yourself up for failure by making a lot of promises and they just like an employee to our supervisor. So you're realistic about what you can do, and what we've been able to do is what we were able to do in the first year was probably what I outlined in my interview. We were going to be 1st 3 to 5. So, like just again, not over promising delivering a leading jury just yet.

spk_0:   48:47
Just

spk_1:   48:47
doing the work

spk_0:   48:48
well, that's it's fantastic. I don't know. I helped

spk_1:   48:50
that question.

spk_0:   48:51
I want answered it and and then some. And I guess the authenticity you presented is in and of itself. Good advice. Because if if if I'm, you know, holding back or somewhat artificial in my interview, it's only gonna come back to haunt me right a year later or whatever. And that leads, of course, to a whole another conversation you and I can have about turnover in the sector. Um, if we're not above board in that early interview discussion, then we're just, you know, on a path for disappointment for both sides.

spk_1:   49:24
Well, I e. I also think that also gives about your questioning about being coming over from for profit industry into the sector. Um, unfortunately, just the talent pool at a very high level of leadership is in my mind. It's very shallow.

spk_0:   49:41
Yep.

spk_1:   49:41
Interceptor. And it needs to It needs to get deeper. It need to get wider. He needs to have more competency, more capacity,

spk_0:   49:50
well put. And that is going to plague the sector until we have kind of the people like you. And frankly, the leadership you're bringing to those that work with you because you are, I think intentional about growing leaders, which is only gonna help your organization and or other organizations as folks you know, move, move on or move around. If if that becomes the case will, it's fantastic. I've got 1/2 dozen books on my notes already, but is there one mawr? You would add anything particularly compelling in your professional development reading that you would want to recommend to others.

spk_1:   50:28
Yeah, frozen four most. When I look, you made never re that never eat alone is a classic.

spk_0:   50:35
I

spk_1:   50:36
recommend that heavy everybody. Everybody is in leadership in our organization of people that I mentor to understand the importance of network in relationship building. It was gonna cool to see that on. They're not that many people, at least in my travels, knew about that book. I read it in my early thirties, and in my mind that should be required coursework in college.

spk_0:   50:55
I couldn't agree more.

spk_1:   50:57
You You know, there's a lot of but, you know, I mentioned Lindsey and a few times during the during the interview Patton, anything went the and he puts out was definitely worth it. Um, but, you know, two books that really have, you know, rather a little over a year and 1/2 a gator, but it kind of percolate, actually. Really? I can reread those in the last six months, one of the the book all moves by Patty as a rela, if you've heard of for, um,

spk_0:   51:24
at a

spk_1:   51:24
great book and

spk_0:   51:25
great

spk_1:   51:26
byline actually has moved how decisive leaders execute strategy despite obstacle setbacks and stalls that should have been pointed directly to the non profit sector.

spk_0:   51:38
I love that, um, and added to my library. Thank you.

spk_1:   51:42
You know, And then another kind of biggie that we talk about a lot is love. This is about transplants. Everyone ourselves, having the organization and to create, um, this culture where anybody in terms of team member can question anything except permission. And that's a radical candor about Kim. Stop

spk_0:   52:01
Nice.

spk_1:   52:03
There's a problem. Two of the two of the bigger resource is outside of time of blog's, and podcasts have been chewing on a little bit. That had really kind of they moved up to the front of list leadership by Maxwell's, another book that we did as a leadership team. I don't want a great takeaways. There's and again it's because we've talked about, you know, the ability to shift and pivot being nimble. Yeah, there's an organization in our sector, but also the leader in our sector has been a key.

spk_0:   52:32
Well, wonderful. You've given us enough to read to put us all the way into the summertime. I think, if we can keep up for you are a prolific reader, and I love that is a big fan of the learning journey. So thank you for joining me on the path today, and I guess will we'll link to your Thompson website anywhere else. You would want people toe toe check out the work you're doing. Maybe social media channels. Perhaps

spk_1:   53:00
you know we have social media like many other, not for profits were not, um, how we need to be there. You know, if I was looking at your kind of preliminary agenda, I would invite you. If you're interested in the work, reach out to me. Um, W Jones at Thompson cff dot org's email. Um is a great way to begin a discussion and have a coffee. Um, and I think I have talked, as I do the same to reach out to people all over the country to learn pick brains. Um, I think one of the things that organ leaders like myself and others Keenan and should do is give back through some mentorship guidance of people that are thinking about coming into the space, as you said earlier, or people that just started in the space. So we've done definitely have incubated or shepherd at a few new not for profit leaders in the community. Um, again, if any night for profit doesn't work well, people suffer. Um, so it's just it's really part of our mission. Part of my mission to do what I can to assist

spk_0:   54:07
will very generous offer. I'll make that note as well and continued Good luck with the great work you're doing and the work that Thompson's doing. And thanks again for joining me on the path.

spk_1:   54:19
Thank you. Bet you're bluffing.

spk_0:   54:21
Take care If you like me, you took a number of notes. Perhaps mentally, if you are driving or walking or running along. But be assured all of the resource is will. References are in our show notes and on the expanded blawg post on the patent McDowell dot com website. So please check it out and take advantage of the information provided. And, as always, share this episode with someone else who might benefit from this conversation. And the idea is that it might inspire, um, if you'd like to subscribe, please do so on your favorite podcast platform. And always thanks for listening. I appreciate you being part of these conversations, and we're eager to share the content of this podcast with others in the non profit community. Thanks for what you're doing for any non profit that you support and causes that are meaningful to you. I will look forward to seeing you next time on the path